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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1184
|
Posted - 2015.05.14 18:06:18 -
[151] - Quote
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:afkalt wrote: Other capitals don't get a fair comparison because they're not flown so frequently and across such vast distances.
You realise this would affect all capitals. And possibly Titans/Motherships being able to dock in the new XL structures.
Obviously but my point is, people don't YOLO their archons from jita to the outer reaches and back again. They have a far better, /contained/ area of operations.
So saying other things (like supers) already suffer this is disingenuous.
Is the situation today ideal? Not really - but taking a pragmatic, realistic view it's well placed in the grand scheme. This change won't result in more capital kills, quite the opposite. It will also cause a monumental ballache to logistics all over eve and we'll all pay for that.
The idea in isolation is arguably nice, but it doesn't stand up when human nature is considered along with it. The risk to a noncombatant ship of this cost isn't worth the reward to the owner. Escorts are a (terrible) idea but fall down on the sheer volume of runs performed.
Supers not being allowed to dock hasn't exactly made them a hotbed of pvp action as a result, has it? |
Khorvek
Dead Pool Syndicate
11
|
Posted - 2015.05.14 18:32:12 -
[152] - Quote
Dustpuppy wrote:Khorvek wrote:
The market can't exist without PvP or massive losses in PvE, which are largely mitigated by how simple PvE is. ISK can't exist in the economy without NPC buy orders, rat bounties, and mission payouts. That's just how things are.
You still miss the point of this thread. We are not talking about isk faucets and isk sinks, we are talking about the need to move goods around in EVE and the effects of this proposed change. And here the situation is clear. You need the possibility to move high volumes to keep the economy running. Moving high volume goods between low/nullsec and Highsec and within lowsec and nullsec can only be done in a more or less safe way using Jump freighters and their only defense is this cyno/docking game which should be removed according to the OP. Using a JF in a different way (e.g. jumping into a system without station or by using a cyno outside a docking range) is the best way to loose such a ship within a short period. It can only be done in quiet areas when no one else is around and you still find a lot of kills happening in such systems. What you all forget is that JF haul goods which end on the market and a market can only exist if people are around. As a result a JF pilot must jump and dock in crowded/busy systems, he can't avoid it. It's simply a fundamental fact that trading hubs are always crowded.
No, I understand the thread. You were talking about my sig so I responded to it. You're the one who brought that up, as you later point out now that its irrelevant to the thread.
I don't understand the issue people seem to believe in inflation due to mission runners and ratting...
Without missions and rats, isk wouldn't exist in Eve. All trading, selling T2 stuff, and buying ore, all of it depends on isk generated elsewhere.
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Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University Amarr Empire
587
|
Posted - 2015.05.14 18:42:42 -
[153] - Quote
An empty freighter in Hisec comes under more risk than a JF full of juice jumping around stations in Low or Nullsec.
Balanced gaem
afkalt wrote:Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
You realise this would affect all capitals.
And possibly Titans/Motherships being able to dock in the new XL structures.
Obviously but my point is, people don't YOLO their archons from jita to the outer reaches and back again. They have a far better, /contained/ area of operations.
They y0l0 their whole Titans solo. As it should be.
#REKKINGCREW
Quote:So saying other things (like supers) already suffer this is disingenuous.
Quote:Is the situation today ideal? Not really - but taking a pragmatic, realistic view it's well placed in the grand scheme. This change won't result in more capital kills, quite the opposite. It will also cause a monumental ballache to logistics all over eve and we'll all pay for that.
Cry me a river.
We used to supply the whole 0.0 POS infrastructure in Tech 1 haulers, because nothing else was available at that time.
Quote:Escorts are a (terrible) idea but fall down on the sheer volume of runs performed.
Itsa MMO.
You'll adapt and harden the **** up.
// Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept
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Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
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13kr1d1
Hedion University Amarr Empire
124
|
Posted - 2015.05.14 18:51:21 -
[154] - Quote
I remember the T1 hauler days. Some good old youtube videos of a fleet of the now defunct and **** bestower, among others, feeding nullsec POSes.
At 5 drones of T2, the Tristan is nearly as powerful as the Algos, with a cheaper price tag, better maneuverability and speed, and smaller sig radius to avoid the lazy carebearish T3 station blapping -10s who have no life. Pick tristan for FW.
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Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University Amarr Empire
590
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Posted - 2015.05.14 18:55:09 -
[155] - Quote
13kr1d1 wrote: **** bestower
Train for an Impel, nub.
// Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept
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Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1184
|
Posted - 2015.05.14 19:01:27 -
[156] - Quote
Things change. Usually for the better. AOE remote doomsday was a thing too.....want that back?
Adapt? I'm not a JF pilot, I just don't want EVERYTHING to get more expensive because :reasons:
What reward do you propose for the added risk?
Do you think this change adds depth or fun to players, or just more crap so the bads can get ganked and we all pay more for T2 products?
Do you think people wouldn't just start punting blockade runners instead, wherever possible?
This idea is like saying 'nerf Titans tank so they die more'. Because.
Honestly, awful. Some people have no idea how the ecosystem works. |
Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University Amarr Empire
590
|
Posted - 2015.05.14 19:09:35 -
[157] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Things change. Usually for the better. AOE remote doomsday was a thing too.....want that back?
Adapt? I'm not a JF pilot, I just don't want EVERYTHING to get more expensive because :reasons:
Not everything, just some resources from Null.
By 10% at most.
Quote:What reward do you propose for the added risk?
Not having to fly a freighter from gate to gate for 20 jumps thru Low/Nullsec is not enough?
Herpderp
Quote:Do you think this change adds depth or fun to players, or just more crap so the bads can get ganked and we all pay more for T2 products?
Yes, it does.
Quote:Do you think people wouldn't just start punting blockade runners instead, wherever possible?
That would be a welcomed change.
Quote:Honestly, awful. Some people have no idea how the ecosystem works.
Yes, risk-reward is broken. Ecosystem is operating on the assumption that the bubble won't pop.
Pop
No scrap that, ecosystem is flexible - it won't notice much change, and the entities who are enjoying the benefits are operating on that assumption instead.
// Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept
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Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1184
|
Posted - 2015.05.14 19:36:28 -
[158] - Quote
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:afkalt wrote:Do you think people wouldn't just start punting blockade runners instead, wherever possible? That would be a welcomed change. I think you don't realise how safe current JF mechanics are, and underestimating the risk of doing the same in BRs/DSTs even with cynos 10 km off station.
I think until you know how blops cynos work, maybe you should refrain from comment....in this entire thread, tbh.
PROTIP: People dont blops cyno onto stations.
And enough with the multiquoting, it makes replies overly onerous. There's a quote limit you know. |
Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University Amarr Empire
591
|
Posted - 2015.05.14 19:38:05 -
[159] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:afkalt wrote:Do you think people wouldn't just start punting blockade runners instead, wherever possible? That would be a welcomed change. I think you don't realise how safe current JF mechanics are, and underestimating the risk of doing the same in BRs/DSTs even with cynos 10 km off station. I think until you know how blops cynos work, maybe you should refrain from comment....in this entire thread, tbh.
This thread is about normal cynos off station covering the issue of JFs.
// Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept
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Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
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13kr1d1
Hedion University Amarr Empire
124
|
Posted - 2015.05.14 19:54:59 -
[160] - Quote
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:13kr1d1 wrote: **** bestower Train for an Impel, nub.
My sigil works twice as well and much cheaper, thanks nub.
At 5 drones of T2, the Tristan is nearly as powerful as the Algos, with a cheaper price tag, better maneuverability and speed, and smaller sig radius to avoid the lazy carebearish T3 station blapping -10s who have no life. Pick tristan for FW.
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Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University Amarr Empire
592
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Posted - 2015.05.14 19:56:53 -
[161] - Quote
13kr1d1 wrote:Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:13kr1d1 wrote: **** bestower Train for an Impel, nub. My sigil works twice as well and much cheaper, thanks nub.
Was about to suggest that alternatively, but oh 62.5k m3.
// Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept
//
Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1184
|
Posted - 2015.05.14 20:50:08 -
[162] - Quote
The covert is valid when you said a blockade runner/DST is at risk using it. When youre attempting to lecture people about risk particularly around those ships in order to be taken seriously it helps if you know what you're talking about.
The very fact you think a blops cyno would happen on station, or that a DST can use one....leaves me wondering just how much experience of the logistics game you really have as well as leaving me questioning your evaluation of risk levels/logistic cost increase/likely player actions when you don't really know the mechanics involved. It's rather like arguing with Dr Nick Riveria |
Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University Amarr Empire
592
|
Posted - 2015.05.14 20:59:44 -
[163] - Quote
afkalt wrote:The covert is valid when you said a blockade runner/DST is at risk using it.
DSTs can't bridge to covert cynos. Did you know that there exists a whole world of gate to gate travel outside of -> Jump?
Some facerollers apparently didn't - look where that got them.
Quote:When youre attempting to lecture people about risk particularly around those ships in order to be taken seriously it helps if you know what you're talking about.
You will be free to substitute your JF with 34 BR bridges, if you think putting your jump freighter for 26 seconds at "risk" with not one Soul in local is too much for you to handle.
Quote:The very fact you think a blops cyno would happen on station, or that a DST can use one....leaves me wondering just how much experience of the logistics game you really have as well as leaving me questioning your evaluation of risk levels/logistic cost increase/likely player actions when you don't really know the mechanics involved.
Yes, keep up with your fantasy and redirection, all the while the topic remains about normal cynos and the issue of JFs.
// Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept
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Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
2928
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 04:04:35 -
[164] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:FT Diomedes wrote:You have just described a pretty straightforward and natural progression. The first people to the frontier are the ones who want quick riches and don't mind getting killed by the natives. A few years later, you have civilization and government control from sea to shining sea.
Do you really expect any system to remain in the "gold rush" "stake claiming" and "slaughtering natives" stage forever?
Making the game more painful to play will not bring back the frontier. Game mechanics did not bring the empires - with all their bureaucracy and organization - to Eve. Players did. Players organized and imposed order on the universe - because those who could not organize effectively did not survive. If you make the game more painful to play, the best organized groups will still find ways around it. What groups do you think can best organize 1000 players to conduct weekly or monthly freighter move operations? The same ones who can currently control enough space to move their ships in relative safely today.
Honestly, you sound like someone bitching about the pernicious effects of the Transcontinental Railroad in the Internet Age.
I do not envy CCP as they attempt to balance between fighting stagnation in Eve and trying to keep their current players happy. If you can figure out a way to roll back Eve's clock 10 years without killing Eve, I'm sure there is a job for you in Iceland. I think the big trick is to impose a system where 500 guys working together is fun, 5000 working together is just too much effort and/or not fun, and there is no way to get two or more groups of 5000 to ever work together. Right now to go to SOV null the options are join a big guy, rent from a big guy or get your dreams crushed. That's just not cool. My take is there is a large difference in what 5000 cfc pilots want to do for fun and what the 8 guys leading it want to do for fun. Take jump fatigue. Those 8 guys put up a massive wall of 'this will end eve', 'subs will be pulled', and so on. What is really happening? Eve stagnation is breaking up a bit. Not everyone is listening to 8 guys give orders. There are rumors of actual meaningful pvp. I think at the end of the day, if CCP brought back the wild west then 8 angry businessmen would rage quite and 5000 other dudes would quick enough figure what to do next. I really believe that and I really believe they would only be risking 8 subs not 5000 when they do it. We could get philisophical about passive moon isk, SRP being equivalent to eve corprate wellfare and a whole bunch of stuff. How to herd cats AND have fun 301 should be a required course for alliance leaders. JF cynos moving off the station probably won't change much of anything. As always, the smart and cautious will survive... they'll just have to do a little work to get there. The careless and cocky will get what they deserve. What personally irks me is the free ride JF pilots currently have. No risk is BS. The fact that folks actually argue that it NEEDS to be easy AND risk free to allow others to play the game just rubs my fur wrong on a couple of levels (the entitlement thing). Final note - a group of 100 men don't need a leader, a group of 100 men creates a leader. Eve and on a grand scale humanity doesn't need any SPECIFIC leader - the group always provides the leadership it needs in due time.
Ahh, another example of, "You're not sandboxing right."
Spare us.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
2928
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 04:10:59 -
[165] - Quote
13kr1d1 wrote:Serendipity Lost wrote:Here's an odd question that could use some explaining.
How in the sweet bejesus did eve even function before jump freighters???
Apparently EvE was dead before jump freighters were introduced... for about 5+ years it was just a theory game with 50k accounts.
Actually people used carriers stuffed to the gills with haulers in the ship maintenance array. You'd fit the haulers for max cargo, stuff them full of stuff, put them in the carrier and jump to wherever.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Ciba Lexlulu
Stay Frosty. A Band Apart.
60
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 05:19:37 -
[166] - Quote
Whle at it, lets change the game mechanic so all freighter cannot warp to zero but to 10km instead. |
Arctic Estidal
Harbingers of Chaos Inc Gentlemen's.Club
20
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 05:45:36 -
[167] - Quote
This has to be a troll post. It is seriously stupid to be a real suggestion. Only reason it has a lot of people reading it is because Fozzie posted an angry face.
You must not fly a $7b jump freighter if you want to make them easy to get ganked, before you load it up with billions of items.
For everyone in alliances who move items which are not their own, you have now made the jump freighter pilot risk his $7b ship plus all the billions in collateral that he has to put up for the items he is carrying.
So for all the risk, what is the reward? So you can have easier targets because you find PVP to difficult. You now want to fight ships which have no offensive or defensive capabilities. LOL.
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13kr1d1
Hedion University Amarr Empire
125
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 07:30:56 -
[168] - Quote
Arctic Estidal wrote:This has to be a troll post. It is seriously stupid to be a real suggestion. Only reason it has a lot of people reading it is because Fozzie posted an angry face.
You must not fly a $7b jump freighter if you want to make them easy to get ganked, before you load it up with billions of items.
For everyone in alliances who move items which are not their own, you have now made the jump freighter pilot risk his $7b ship plus all the billions in collateral that he has to put up for the items he is carrying.
So for all the risk, what is the reward? So you can have easier targets because you find PVP to difficult. You now want to fight ships which have no offensive or defensive capabilities. LOL.
All PvP in EvE is consentual. Its far too easy to dock or simply get away if you know when and where to avoid it. There's a million tools to prevent PvP in EvE, there are few tools to ensure it, barring gatecamps. JFs right on top of stations avoid gatecamps.
At 5 drones of T2, the Tristan is nearly as powerful as the Algos, with a cheaper price tag, better maneuverability and speed, and smaller sig radius to avoid the lazy carebearish T3 station blapping -10s who have no life. Pick tristan for FW.
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Dustpuppy
New Eden Ferengi
109
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 07:41:26 -
[169] - Quote
Madeleine Brioche wrote:POST 10K:
1. wait to be alone in system. 2. get bored to wait for hours. 3. sell JF.
Plus add: 1) never happens because with a JF you move goods to trading stations and there is always someone online.
Yesterday my cynoalt was bubbled with an interdiction sphere 12 secs after the cyno went up and I only had 12 ppl in the system at the moment. Good luck in moving goods if such a change is implemented and people start specializing in hunting you. Then the 12 secs are more or less common and no longer an exception. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1186
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 08:02:30 -
[170] - Quote
13kr1d1 wrote:Arctic Estidal wrote:This has to be a troll post. It is seriously stupid to be a real suggestion. Only reason it has a lot of people reading it is because Fozzie posted an angry face.
You must not fly a $7b jump freighter if you want to make them easy to get ganked, before you load it up with billions of items.
For everyone in alliances who move items which are not their own, you have now made the jump freighter pilot risk his $7b ship plus all the billions in collateral that he has to put up for the items he is carrying.
So for all the risk, what is the reward? So you can have easier targets because you find PVP to difficult. You now want to fight ships which have no offensive or defensive capabilities. LOL.
All PvP in EvE is consentual. Its far too easy to dock or simply get away if you know when and where to avoid it. There's a million tools to prevent PvP in EvE, there are few tools to ensure it, barring gatecamps. JFs right on top of stations avoid gatecamps.
And yet a casual glance over killboards reveals 5 JF kills in the last few days. All out of HS empire. In fact more are dying outside HS empire than in.
Evidence suggests that these still die with regularity. |
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Dustpuppy
New Eden Ferengi
110
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Posted - 2015.05.15 08:09:11 -
[171] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote: Are we talking about the NEED or the ABILITY to move large volumes of material? Clearly some people think there is a NEED, that it is important, and that we should have a powerful ABILITY to do that.
We are talking about both. There are structures ingame which exceed the cargo volume of a BR (battle cruiser), you need something bigger to move them. And even if the cargo fits you don't want to go into NS and back again with three frigs stored in a BR when you earn only maybe 6 million isk doing this.
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:Dustpuppy wrote:Moving high volume goods between low/nullsec and Highsec and within lowsec and nullsec can only be done in a more or less safe way using Jump freighters and their only defense is this cyno/docking game That's just flat out wrong. Moving high volume goods can be done with a regular freighter and safely. It just can't be done in as manhour and manpower efficient a way, but seeing as how this is a MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER game . . . that's actually a good thing. [/quote]
Stop thinking in Goons when you think about corp sizes and the amount of pilots they can assign to move goods. If you don't have 50-100 pilots to protect your stuff you will loose it to any gatecamp in Nullsec.
But instead of talking in theory, let's prove us that you are wrong. I will set up a a contract for you which requires a freighter or a similar ship and you move the goods from Jita to a NPC nullsec station to ensure you can dock.
Show me that you can seed a market without a JF, move something for me to D87E-A in Curse.
Let's see if you can moonwalk your freighter through the Gatecamps of Khabi and 7Q and drift through GW. Only 47 jumps to do. Man that's easy according to your suggestion. You just need some protection, I heard Ebola is very active in this region and can even bring some carriers and dreads if needed.
You can also choose the shortest way through HED-GP in Catch. Shorter, less jumps, however I heard in HED you require some more ships to protect stuff.
Or come down the road from Derelik over Doril and VOL-MI. Very attractive. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1187
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 08:38:53 -
[172] - Quote
Dustpuppy wrote:Mayhaw Morgan wrote: Are we talking about the NEED or the ABILITY to move large volumes of material? Clearly some people think there is a NEED, that it is important, and that we should have a powerful ABILITY to do that.
We are talking about both. There are structures ingame which exceed the cargo volume of a BR (battle cruiser), you need something bigger to move them. And even if the cargo fits you don't want to go into NS and back again with three frigs stored in a BR when you earn only maybe 6 million isk doing this. Mayhaw Morgan wrote:Dustpuppy wrote:Moving high volume goods between low/nullsec and Highsec and within lowsec and nullsec can only be done in a more or less safe way using Jump freighters and their only defense is this cyno/docking game That's just flat out wrong. Moving high volume goods can be done with a regular freighter and safely. It just can't be done in as manhour and manpower efficient a way, but seeing as how this is a MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER game . . . that's actually a good thing. Stop thinking in Goons when you think about corp sizes and the amount of pilots they can assign to move goods. If you don't have 50-100 pilots to protect your stuff you will loose it to any gatecamp in Nullsec. You know how ******* easy it is to point the freighter and focus fire on it and how hard it is for your protection fleet to do something against this? Just kick in a bunch of talos which are also used in HS ganking and alpha them away faster than your protectors can kill the attackers. With a 1 billion isk ship (plus multi billion cargo) it's worth it and you will be able to grab the loot because the others don't have a spare freighter to pick up the remains of the wreck But instead of talking about theory, let's prove us that you are wrong. I will set up a a contract for you which requires a freighter or a similar ship and you move the goods from Jita to a NPC nullsec station to ensure you can dock. Nothing special, nothing expensive - four station vaults so you can't use a JF. No collateral, just your freighter you might loose Show me that you can seed a market without a JF, move something for me to D87E-A in Curse. Let's see if you can moonwalk your freighter through the Gatecamps of Khabi and 7Q and drift through GW. Only 47 jumps to do. Man that's easy according to your suggestion. You just need some protection, I heard Ebola is very active in this region and can even bring some carriers and dreads if needed. You can also choose the shortest way through HED-GP in Catch. Shorter, less jumps, however I heard in HED you require some more ships to protect stuff. Or come down the road from Derelik over Doril and VOL-MI. Very attractive. You know PL is around in this area and sometimes you can find up to 250 pilots online in one sys? Good luck. If anyone else wants to prove me wrong, send an ingame email to Dustpuppy. As said, it's too easy how it is at the moment and some risks have to be added. Show me that you are right.
This post should be enshrined in a sticky.
I know that area of space fairly well, the locals would be over you like piranhas. They'd even set aside local differences for the fight too. |
Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University Amarr Empire
596
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 09:18:06 -
[173] - Quote
13kr1d1 wrote:Arctic Estidal wrote:This has to be a troll post. It is seriously stupid to be a real suggestion. Only reason it has a lot of people reading it is because Fozzie posted an angry face.
You must not fly a $7b jump freighter if you want to make them easy to get ganked, before you load it up with billions of items.
For everyone in alliances who move items which are not their own, you have now made the jump freighter pilot risk his $7b ship plus all the billions in collateral that he has to put up for the items he is carrying.
So for all the risk, what is the reward? So you can have easier targets because you find PVP to difficult. You now want to fight ships which have no offensive or defensive capabilities. LOL.
All PvP in EvE is consentual. Its far too easy to dock or simply get away if you know when and where to avoid it. There's a million tools to prevent PvP in EvE, there are few tools to ensure it, barring gatecamps. JFs right on top of stations avoid gatecamps.
Don't mind them.
Twenty five seconds vulnerability on a trip that would otherwise involve putting your freighter at RISK each time you go through a new system times the number of systems - that is unfathomable.
Broken mechanic will be fixed soon enough, just as SKYNET was.
// Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept
//
Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
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Dustpuppy
New Eden Ferengi
111
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 09:48:39 -
[174] - Quote
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: Twenty five seconds vulnerability on a trip that would otherwise involve putting your freighter at RISK each time you go through a new system times the number of systems - that is unfathomable.
I am pretty sure you don't fly capitals because otherwise you wouldn't call 25 seconds in space "low risk". As I have mentioned, there are many places which aren't under SOV control and aren't quiet and empty. Any NPC area falls into this category.
But because you like maths, do me a favor and calculate me the risk of loosing a ship when the following rules apply:
The cyno is light and becomes visible. Now the clock is running... You switch to the JF pilot or tell your colleague to jump over TS. Jumping to the cyno requires the same amount of seconds like using a gate - 5 seconds. After arrival your ship (without webber) requires 26 seconds to enter warp. This sums up to 31 seconds plus some additional reaction time for moving your ship away from the cyno.
Your cyno is bubbled with an interdiction probe 12 seconds after you have light it. An interdiction sphere has a range of 20km while you land 5km off the cyno so you are 100% warp scrambled after that point. Launching a probe can done without a lock, no delays here while your webber needs a lock after your JF became visible.
Now the calculation: How many webbers do you need to reduce the required time so your JF can enter warp?
Please don't come up with "quiet space" or I will also assign a contract to you to bring in goods into a NPC station of my choice. |
Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
308
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 09:54:48 -
[175] - Quote
13kr1d1 wrote:Serendipity Lost wrote:Here's an odd question that could use some explaining.
How in the sweet bejesus did eve even function before jump freighters???
Apparently EvE was dead before jump freighters were introduced... for about 5+ years it was just a theory game with 50k accounts.
Before JFs, people used carriers as pseudo JFs. Before that, nullsec had no functioning economy and almost no PvE occurred there, it was simply too high risk and little reward. Belt ratting was half the isk/hr of highsec level fours and had considerable risk as well.
Today, nullsec has tons of PvE content and thus people need ships to do that content. Back then, the only PvE content in nullsec worth doing was the static complexes, all of which were claimed by an alliance and farmed regularly. The real draw of nullsec was the R64s, and alliances formed to hold them. Nullsec had no economy, most corps used a Communist system with a high tax rate to keep people out of highsec and had a doctrine of 2 or 3 ships that would get bought in Jita and freighter oped down, ops that were so ****** corp members had to be dragged on them kicking and screaming. The game was very boring when scheduled PvP ops for which you were provided ships weren't going on, most people had out of corp alts based in highsec to run level fours and/or PvP in lowsec. |
Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University Amarr Empire
599
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 10:00:25 -
[176] - Quote
Dustpuppy wrote:Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: Twenty five seconds vulnerability on a trip that would otherwise involve putting your freighter at RISK each time you go through a new system times the number of systems - that is unfathomable.
you wouldn't call 25 seconds in space "low risk".
Yes. Call it just risk.
Quote:The cyno is light and becomes visible. Now the clock is running... You switch to the JF pilot or tell your colleague to jump over TS. Jumping to the cyno requires the same amount of seconds like using a gate - 5 seconds. After arrival your ship (without webber) requires 26 seconds to enter warp. This sums up to 31 seconds plus some additional reaction time for moving your ship away from the cyno.
Your cyno is bubbled with an interdiction probe 12 seconds after you have light it. An interdiction sphere has a range of 20km while you land 5km off the cyno so you are 100% warp scrambled after that point. Launching a probe can done without a lock, no delays here while your webber needs a lock after your JF became visible.
Get some proper scouts.
And then a webber.
And then an escort.
High stakes, high-er rewards.
Invulnerability -> Jump -> Invulnerability -> Jump -> Invulnerability -> Jump -> Invulnerability -> Jump ->
Quote:Please don't come up with "quiet space" or I will also assign a contract to you to bring in goods into a NPC station of my choice.
There's going to be a lot of quiet space with the new Citadels coming out.
// Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept
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Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1187
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Posted - 2015.05.15 10:14:35 -
[177] - Quote
All this "invulnerability", perhaps you can explain the JF deaths this week alone? |
Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University Amarr Empire
599
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Posted - 2015.05.15 10:15:35 -
[178] - Quote
afkalt wrote:All this "invulnerability", perhaps you can explain the JF deaths this week alone?
Convo the pilots, get their stories.
Should be fascinating.
// Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept
//
Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1187
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Posted - 2015.05.15 10:17:21 -
[179] - Quote
Xequecal wrote:13kr1d1 wrote:Serendipity Lost wrote:Here's an odd question that could use some explaining.
How in the sweet bejesus did eve even function before jump freighters???
Apparently EvE was dead before jump freighters were introduced... for about 5+ years it was just a theory game with 50k accounts. Before JFs, people used carriers as pseudo JFs. Before that, nullsec had no functioning economy and almost no PvE occurred there, it was simply too high risk and little reward. Belt ratting was half the isk/hr of highsec level fours and had considerable risk as well. Today, nullsec has tons of PvE content and thus people need ships to do that content. Back then, the only PvE content in nullsec worth doing was the static complexes, all of which were claimed by an alliance and farmed regularly. The real draw of nullsec was the R64s, and alliances formed to hold them. Nullsec had no economy, most corps used a Communist system with a high tax rate to keep people out of highsec and had a doctrine of 2 or 3 ships that would get bought in Jita and freighter oped down, ops that were so ****** corp members had to be dragged on them kicking and screaming. The game was very boring when scheduled PvP ops for which you were provided ships weren't going on, most people had out of corp alts based in highsec to run level fours and/or PvP in lowsec.
No no no. History isn't right. It's all about perception and the politics of envy.
Also babysitting is FUN don't you know, especially when the ENTIRE REGION will come dogpile on you.
Apparently the reward of facilitating content for thousands of people needs more risk so people can get cheap kills |
Dustpuppy
New Eden Ferengi
113
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Posted - 2015.05.15 10:37:13 -
[180] - Quote
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: Yes. Call it just risk.
Simple request: can you please answer a single question instead of using obscure messages which only show that you cannot answer them?
So here again is a concrete question: How many webbers are required to bring down the align time from 26 seconds to 5 seconds?
Without being able to do this you are unable to jump into any system where someone else is there. This makes restocking any NPC lowsec/nullsec station impossible because the goods you move there attract buyers. Buyers mean pilots in space making restocking impossible. So in the end this idea will kill any NPC lowsec/nullsec region. As soon a the local trade hubs are gone people will leave.
Your idea with escort/scout is bullshit. PL alphas Jump freighters with drive by titans. You don't spot a cyno alt and when the light goes up it's too late. Even when you don't bring in big guns a single point is enough to pin the freighter to the place and then bring in ships to kill. |
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