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E Vile
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Posted - 2007.06.30 11:57:00 -
[61]
Originally by: MuffinsRevenger
Originally by: xHalcyonx My dream Nighthawk setup:
Haklyjon fails!
This is how you do it!
...Allthough my HML ROF is actually down to 5.33 now :D runs forever, tanks annything ^_^
Very nice, but I would want to cry if I lost that ship in pvp. "The key to immortality is to first live a life worth remembering."
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Geordi
Pitch Black Incorporated
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Posted - 2007.07.27 12:25:00 -
[62]
This tank will run forever, with Energy Systems Operation 5 & Energy Management 4, cap will hold at around 55%.
Resists are: (with EM compensation lvl 3)
EM = 73% Explosive = 73% Kinetic = 75% Thermal = 80%
Hi-Slots:
6 x Heavy Missile Launcher II 1 x Medium Nos II
Med-Slots:
1 x Dread Guristas Magnetic Scattering Amplifier 2 x Shield Boost Amplifier II 2 x Pithi A-Type Small Shield Booster
Low-Slots:
1 x Damage Control II 2 x Power Diagnostic System II 2 x Ballistic Control System II
Rigs:
Bay Loading Accelerator I Anti-EM Screen Reinforcement I
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Ewa Quillam
Caldari Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2007.07.27 13:06:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Hephaesteus lvl 4's are a breeze with a Nighthawk
6 Heavy missle launchers T2 1 Med nos T2
1 Large shield booster 4 active hardeners T2
2 Pdu T2 3 Ballistic Controls T2
and drones or though I have never needed to use them in this ship.
Actually, they are not, because the NH has crappy targeting range. They go quicker in a cerb and a lot more quicker in cruise raven with specific hardeners.
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Rico Carnage
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Posted - 2007.08.13 20:58:00 -
[64]
I see alot of people putting on tuns of shield extenders to get tuns of shields in hopes of staying alive longer. Why not just forget haveing 20-30k of shields with ok resistances, and have like 7k of shields that have insane resistances. This inturn makes any dmg done to you minor and you dont have to have tons of shields. For instance I have 81/81/90/88, with that kind of resistance you dont need 20k of shields and i have yet to find (not to say there isn't one) a HAC BS or another CS that can break that tank.
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Ben Booley
Mutually Assured Distraction Molotov Coalition
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Posted - 2007.08.13 22:54:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Rico Carnage I see alot of people putting on tuns of shield extenders to get tuns of shields in hopes of staying alive longer. Why not just forget haveing 20-30k of shields with ok resistances, and have like 7k of shields that have insane resistances. This inturn makes any dmg done to you minor and you dont have to have tons of shields. For instance I have 81/81/90/88, with that kind of resistance you dont need 20k of shields and i have yet to find (not to say there isn't one) a HAC BS or another CS that can break that tank.
They do that because as they increase the amount of shields, the recharge time stays the same, making their shields recharge faster. High recharge + good resists > slow recharge + great resists.
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Ferocious FeAr
Eternity INC. Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.08.14 02:32:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Ben Booley
Originally by: Rico Carnage I see alot of people putting on tuns of shield extenders to get tuns of shields in hopes of staying alive longer. Why not just forget haveing 20-30k of shields with ok resistances, and have like 7k of shields that have insane resistances. This inturn makes any dmg done to you minor and you dont have to have tons of shields. For instance I have 81/81/90/88, with that kind of resistance you dont need 20k of shields and i have yet to find (not to say there isn't one) a HAC BS or another CS that can break that tank.
They do that because as they increase the amount of shields, the recharge time stays the same, making their shields recharge faster. High recharge + good resists > slow recharge + great resists.
Wrong. The only time I would suggest using a passive tank is on a fleet vulture. Why would anyway want to lower their DPS is beyond me. You can tank equally as good or even better with an active tank.
Don't hate me, learn to love me |
Bentula
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Posted - 2007.08.14 09:19:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Ferocious FeAr
Wrong. The only time I would suggest using a passive tank is on a fleet vulture. Why would anyway want to lower their DPS is beyond me. You can tank equally as good or even better with an active tank.
My setup:
High: 6xHM II
Med: 2xLSE II 2xInvul 1xEM
Low: 3xBCU II 2xSPR II
Rigs: 2xCore Defence field purger
Res: EM/THERM/KIN/EXP 79.3%/88.4%/85.4%/84.5% 12.5k HP shields, 350 sec recharge, 90hp/s peak recharge
Please give me your active setup that does more DPS and tanks equally good or even better. Btw the above setup is sustained.
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port22
Royal Crimson Lancers
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Posted - 2007.08.14 10:03:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Bentula
Originally by: Ferocious FeAr
Wrong. The only time I would suggest using a passive tank is on a fleet vulture. Why would anyway want to lower their DPS is beyond me. You can tank equally as good or even better with an active tank.
My setup:
High: 6xHM II
Med: 2xLSE II 2xInvul 1xEM
Low: 3xBCU II 2xSPR II
Rigs: 2xCore Defence field purger
Res: EM/THERM/KIN/EXP 79.3%/88.4%/85.4%/84.5% 12.5k HP shields, 350 sec recharge, 90hp/s peak recharge
Please give me your active setup that does more DPS and tanks equally good or even better. Btw the above setup is sustained.
Your setup is not passive as it has invuln fields. For a true passive tank there cannot be an active module on your tank. If you are nossed your tank will fail.
I personally fly a passive tank vulture and it will tank a full gank astarte (14x dmg mod) with ease. If I am nossed my tank remains the same.
To previous poster, these are not dps ships, why treat them as such?
Originally by: Temp Boi Port FTMFW Period.
'We dont fight fair' -Fall Out Boy |
Aramendel
Amarr Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.08.14 10:23:00 -
[69]
Originally by: port22 Your setup is not passive as it has invuln fields. For a true passive tank there cannot be an active module on your tank. If you are nossed your tank will fail.
Won't be an issue with the nos changes - and I doubt that neuts will be as common. Also, a pure active shield booster tank will also fail when being nossed ATM, so thats hardly an unique weakness.
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Bentula
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Posted - 2007.08.14 13:02:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Aramendel
Originally by: port22 Your setup is not passive as it has invuln fields. For a true passive tank there cannot be an active module on your tank. If you are nossed your tank will fail.
Won't be an issue with the nos changes - and I doubt that neuts will be as common. Also, a pure active shield booster tank will also fail when being nossed ATM, so thats hardly an unique weakness.
Thats exactly the reason i use it. I dont use it to gain nos immunity but instead because it is superior in every way to a active tank unless you spend billions on faction stuff, and even while providing less protection vs nos/neut than a true passive tank its still way better than a booster tank.
Your not going to have higher resistances in a active tank if you want to fit booster + injector/amplifier. Your also not going to have more BCUs, since fitting a fourth is moot anyway. So i fail to see any reason to fit a active tank on this ship, the semi passive one is simply better in almost any situation.
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Drezzster
Infestation.
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Posted - 2007.09.01 23:22:00 -
[71]
So what makes "any other command ship" better than the NH in pvp?
Sure there is the old caldari med slot tackling problem but that is not an issue in gangs. I think the fact that unlike other races you can easily fit a tank and gank outweighs that problem. Also missiles have the bonus of always hitting for full damage against larger targets which most ships that are a threat to you will be. On top of that you dont need to worry about optimal, get webbed? no problemo. And I really don't see why delayed damage is a problem, they should be scrambled.
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Allestin Villimar
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Posted - 2007.09.15 19:36:00 -
[72]
This is the set up I'm looking at:
High: 6x T2 Heavy Launchers, 1x Drone Link Augmentor Med : 1x CN/DG Invuln Field, 2x passive CN/DG EM resists, 2x T2 LSE Low : 1x T2 BCU, 4x T2 SPR Rigs: 2x Core Defence Purger
Gives 80% or more to every resist, a launcher rate of around 5.5, and a regen of around 150. With better implants you can get better numbers. If you have maxed out shield compensation skills having the invuln field off only gives a net loss of about 10% to each resist. If you just HAVE to have the maximum tank you can pull a 200 point regen by swapping out the BCU. 1000 passively tankable DPS. Mmm, tasty.
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Ferocious FeAr
Eternity INC. Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.09.15 20:27:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Allestin Villimar This is the set up I'm looking at:
High: 6x T2 Heavy Launchers, 1x Drone Link Augmentor Med : 1x CN/DG Invuln Field, 2x passive CN/DG EM resists, 2x T2 LSE Low : 1x T2 BCU, 4x T2 SPR Rigs: 2x Core Defence Purger
Gives 80% or more to every resist, a launcher rate of around 5.5, and a regen of around 150. With better implants you can get better numbers. If you have maxed out shield compensation skills having the invuln field off only gives a net loss of about 10% to each resist. If you just HAVE to have the maximum tank you can pull a 200 point regen by swapping out the BCU. 1000 passively tankable DPS. Mmm, tasty.
Get rid of the drone link. Not needed. Waste of mid slot using 2 passive em. Don't use a passive setup!! Everytime I see a passive nighthawk setup it makes me cringe, they are so ineffective compared to the active. If you want to fly a ship that is made for passive tanks, get in a drake, plus its cheaper (I dislike passive tanks ).
Don't hate me, learn to love me |
Allestin Villimar
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Posted - 2007.09.15 22:36:00 -
[74]
Edited by: Allestin Villimar on 15/09/2007 22:43:53 Having 65 km drone range isn't useless, it just isn't as good as things that can go there. But I don't have the powergrid to fit a gang assist module, so that pretty much leaves a drone link augmentor or a cloaking device.
Having the EMs passively means that I'm virtually immune to neutralizers and nosferatu. I can't do a passive tank and run multiple active hardeners, the cap regen just isn't there. And show me an active tank that can handle 1000 DPS to of any type and be cap stable, much less doing it while being neutralized or drained.
Edit: Also, this will deal more damage than a drake due to the rof bonus and handle more damage while having a smaller signature radius.
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Ferocious FeAr
Eternity INC. Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.09.16 00:37:00 -
[75]
Edited by: Ferocious FeAr on 16/09/2007 00:37:50
Originally by: Allestin Villimar Edited by: Allestin Villimar on 16/09/2007 00:17:14 Edited by: Allestin Villimar on 16/09/2007 00:00:05 Edited by: Allestin Villimar on 15/09/2007 22:43:53 Having 65 km drone range isn't useless, it just isn't as good as things that can go there. But I don't have the powergrid to fit a gang assist module, so that pretty much leaves a drone link augmentor or a cloaking device.
Having the EMs passively means that I'm virtually immune to neutralizers and nosferatu. I can't do a passive tank and run multiple active hardeners, the cap regen just isn't there. And show me an active tank that can handle 1000 DPS to of any type and be cap stable, much less doing it while being neutralized or drained.
Edit: Also, this will deal more damage than a drake due to the rof bonus and handle more damage while having a smaller signature radius.
Edit #2: Ok, looking at 1 DG/CN invuln and 1 DG/CN active EM field. Looks like you're still talking 80% or higher to everything and you can fit a t2 shield recharger, bringing the tank up to about 200 regen / s with max skills and 5% implants. If you swap out 1 BCU for another SPR, you can get up to about 250, but you are no longer cap stable. Takes around 15 minutes to drain that much cap, but it makes you a lot more vulnerable to nos/neut boats. So a slightly stronger tank with nos weakness or a slightly weaker tank that has no real weakness. Take your pick.
Edit #3: By the way, a t2 version of the 1st set up is virtually the same, the only resist below 80% is explosive at 79%. So it may not be worth it to you to get a 300 million invulnerability field for a few more % resists. A t2 version of the 2nd one has EM at 75% as well, though with the added regen you're still at a better tankable DPS.
The nighthawk I fly tanks 1000 dps (even more depending on what damage type). All you need is an injector to sustain damage. Passive setups are worthless in gang, they don't provide as much firepower. You are shortchanging your ship bonus by fitting it passive. I can sit here all day and debate how active is better but I don't think I would change your mind. Either way, its your style, I just feel you aren't using it to its full capabilities.
Don't hate me, learn to love me |
Allestin Villimar
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Posted - 2007.09.16 02:30:00 -
[76]
Then let's see this amazing set up you have. I've seen you do nothing but slam other people's set ups for a variety of reasons without providing anything of your own.
You can tank 1000 DPS until you run out of cap injectors. And to get 200 shield restored per second you must be running some pretty nice faction mods or an XL t2 booster + t2 amp, which will drain your cap faster than you can blink. So you have an extremely expensive tank that can handle 1000 DPS for a very limited time with slightly more damage and a cargo hold that's filled with cap injectors or an unlimited tank that can handle more than 1000 DPS with a little less dps and is virtually immune to energy drain of any sort. I really don't see what your gang would need you for in a command ship that another ship couldn't do better except for perhaps the assistance modules (where you'd want a vulture anyway), and I could fit those with minimal loss to my tank if I really wanted to.
So by all means tell us of this superior active set up. If you're tackling you'd need a MWD, but you said that was stupid earlier, and interceptors do it so much better. If you're sensor boosting, remote shield/armor repping, or using EW there are other ships that do it far better. And if you're doing damage 2 more BCUs aren't going to increase your dps that much over my set up.
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SpinkTon
Caldari Stronghold corp
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Posted - 2007.09.16 11:37:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Ferocious FeAr
I can sit here all day and debate how active is better but I don't think I would change your mind. Either way, its your style, I just feel you aren't using it to its full capabilities.[/quote
Go ahead change our minds, lots of ppl reading this.
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Big Al
Quha Industries Derek Knows Us
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Posted - 2007.09.16 15:52:00 -
[78]
Edited by: Big Al on 16/09/2007 15:54:39 High: 6x DG/CN Heavy Missile Launchers 1x Small tractor Beam
Mid: 2x Shield Booster Amp II 1x Pithum A-type Medium Shield Booster 2x DG/CN Invulns
Low: 4x DG/CN BCU 1x PDU II
Rigs: 2x CCC I
Setup in action, AE bonus room.
To potential flamers: 4th bcu adds 40dps, setup permaruns and tanks any level 4, you don't need more regen. This is a PVE only (duh) setup.
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Aramendel
Amarr Coreli Corporation Exuro Mortis
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Posted - 2007.09.16 16:21:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Ferocious FeAr I can sit here all day and debate how active is better but I don't think I would change your mind. Either way, its your style, I just feel you aren't using it to its full capabilities.
All people request is for you to post a setup which is superior to a passive one. YOu calim passive tanking is ineffective, so that should be rather easy, shouldn't it?
Or in other words: proof or shut up.
I've done quite a bit of tinkering around with setups and come to the conclusion, no, you cannot get a more effective active setup UNLESS you are spending tons of isk for faction mods or UNLESS you are not running a sustainable setup.
With 2 SPR2, 2 LSE2 and 2 t1 purgers you get 80 shield/sec recharge. And 3 active harderners. Sustainable.
Which active setup can get an sustainable 80 shield/sec regeneration rate with 2 med and 2 low slots used?
A pithum a-type medium booster + SBA2 can get 103 regen and is sustainable with only 1 PDU2, but thats 2 bil down the drain. A gist c-type large booster + SBA2 gives you 91 regen and is sustainable with 2 PDU2 and will cost you 500 mil. Or crystal sets (and spending 0.5-2 bil for them and gimping your skill training speed).
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Allestin Villimar
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Posted - 2007.09.16 17:38:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Big Al Edited by: Big Al on 16/09/2007 15:54:39 High: 6x DG/CN Heavy Missile Launchers 1x Small tractor Beam
Mid: 2x Shield Booster Amp II 1x Pithum A-type Medium Shield Booster 2x DG/CN Invulns
Low: 4x DG/CN BCU 1x PDU II
Rigs: 2x CCC I
To potential flamers: 4th bcu adds 40dps, setup permaruns and tanks any level 4, you don't need more regen. This is a PVE only (duh) setup.
Great. Spend a billion in faction mods for a worse tank and better damage.
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Big Al
Quha Industries Derek Knows Us
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Posted - 2007.09.16 18:20:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Allestin Villimar
Originally by: Big Al Edited by: Big Al on 16/09/2007 15:54:39 High: 6x DG/CN Heavy Missile Launchers 1x Small tractor Beam
Mid: 2x Shield Booster Amp II 1x Pithum A-type Medium Shield Booster 2x DG/CN Invulns
Low: 4x DG/CN BCU 1x PDU II
Rigs: 2x CCC I
To potential flamers: 4th bcu adds 40dps, setup permaruns and tanks any level 4, you don't need more regen. This is a PVE only (duh) setup.
Great. Spend a billion in faction mods for a worse tank and better damage.
Great, fly a passive tank that does the same dps as a cerb and does the exact same job. (oh yeah, and costs 3-4x as much too!)
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Allestin Villimar
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Posted - 2007.09.16 18:36:00 -
[82]
Your damage will be comparable with a cerberus' (due to cerb having the grid to support HAMs) while only being a marginally better tank, and your set up would push upwards of 1.2 billion. Insane cost doesn't seem to be an issue to you so I don't see why you brought it up.
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Ferocious FeAr
Eternity INC. Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.09.16 23:30:00 -
[83]
6 - Heavy Missile Launcher II (Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile, Caldari Navy Havoc Heavy Missile) 1 - 150mm Railgun II (Federation Navy Antimatter Charge S)
1 - Dread Guristas Large Shield Booster 1 - Dark Blood Medium Capacitor Booster 1 - Dread Guristas Magnetic Scattering Amplifier (got em shield comp 5) 2 - Invunerability II
1 - Power Diagnostic System II 3 - Ballistic Control System II 1 - Damage Control II
2 - Core Defence Field Extender I
5 - Hobgoblin II
Puts out 615 DPS (should be more soon Warhead Upgrades 5 finishing in a week). Can tank 1000 DPS.
Don't hate me, learn to love me |
Allestin Villimar
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Posted - 2007.09.17 00:22:00 -
[84]
Edited by: Allestin Villimar on 17/09/2007 00:22:50 No it doesn't. A dread gurista large shield booster only gives 75 shield per second. Adding in the shield's regen wth L5 skills and 5% implants for recharge time, shield amount, and 5% booster amount gives you around 110 shields per second with around 81-86% to all resists (and EM is only around 78%). That means you can handle 650 for most damage types. So no, you're tank barely approaches half of what I put out there, and you're using pricy faction mods.
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Ferocious FeAr
Eternity INC. Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.09.17 00:51:00 -
[85]
I've tanked 2 absolutions before. I've also tanked a max neutron mega with berserker II's with max skills. I think I know what my ship can handle. Correction on DPS, its 617.
Don't hate me, learn to love me |
Allestin Villimar
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Posted - 2007.09.17 01:05:00 -
[86]
Point being? Unless you know flat out what their exact set ups were, their exact skills, that they were always in optimal range, you weren't moving, etc. etc. etc., you have no way of knowing how much DPS they were dishing out. But thanks to extensive testing that's been done on shield tanking, I can tell you that you weren't tanking 1000 DPS unless they were dealing almost full thermal damage.
I'm not saying you have a bad set up or that your set up is wrong, but when you come in and say that a passive tank isn't as good as an active, that's just wrong. Tankable DPS is tankable DPS. Both tank types have perks and flaws, and to me, I'd rather have the tank that's going to be tanking 1000 DPS whether it has cap or not. I lose less than 1 second of firing time by not having 2 more BCUs, and the damage bonuses get hit hard by by stacking, so your DPS is probably only about 20% greater than mine. Significant difference, yes, but in a gang, it's probably not going to change the time it takes to blow up an enemy by more than 3 seconds. Lasting long enough as bait against 4-5 ships while your gang warps in will probably make more of a difference.
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Ferocious FeAr
Eternity INC. Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.09.17 01:19:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Allestin Villimar Point being? Unless you know flat out what their exact set ups were, their exact skills, that they were always in optimal range, you weren't moving, etc. etc. etc., you have no way of knowing how much DPS they were dishing out. But thanks to extensive testing that's been done on shield tanking, I can tell you that you weren't tanking 1000 DPS unless they were dealing almost full thermal damage.
I'm not saying you have a bad set up or that your set up is wrong, but when you come in and say that a passive tank isn't as good as an active, that's just wrong. Tankable DPS is tankable DPS. Both tank types have perks and flaws, and to me, I'd rather have the tank that's going to be tanking 1000 DPS whether it has cap or not. I lose less than 1 second of firing time by not having 2 more BCUs, and the damage bonuses get hit hard by by stacking, so your DPS is probably only about 20% greater than mine. Significant difference, yes, but in a gang, it's probably not going to change the time it takes to blow up an enemy by more than 3 seconds. Lasting long enough as bait against 4-5 ships while your gang warps in will probably make more of a difference.
If that is the case, same can be about passive setups. Its a two way street here when you are talking about situational tanking. Listen, I'm not here to get you to change your mind. All I'm saying is, I've done both, active is far better on a nighthawk. Those who fit a passive tank are usually drake converted pilots. Those who aren't, well they just don't know how to fly a Nighthawk. I'm just speaking my mind here, you want honesty you get it, whether its blunt or not. Everyone that I know that pilots the Nighthawk doesn't fit it passive, maybe its just a different breed of players, who knows. Just wondering what is your DPS?
Don't hate me, learn to love me |
Allestin Villimar
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Posted - 2007.09.17 01:48:00 -
[88]
I don't know the DPS. I can give you my rate of fire and skills, but I only know the testing done on shields. When you say "If that is the case, same can be about passive setups.", that's not true. Shields regen at a set curve, the resists you have are static - there is no changing factor in them. The changing factor is the amount of damage taken. You can sit there and tell me you do 650 DPS, but you won't do that much on smaller targets, you don't do that much if the target is moving, you don't do that much if the target has better resists, and you might not do anything if they outrun your missiles. I can always tank 1000 DPS. The only way that will change is if I start getting leadership or gang bonuses, in which case it only goes up. There is no way in game currently to make that decrease, and that's why I go for tank over gank.
The only reason I can see to active tank would be to fit scramblers, webbers, or some other mid slot item. If you've got other ships doing that (and you should, command ships make poor tacklers), there's no reason not to fit a great tank.
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Ferocious FeAr
Eternity INC. Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.09.17 02:18:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Allestin Villimar I don't know the DPS. I can give you my rate of fire and skills, but I only know the testing done on shields. When you say "If that is the case, same can be about passive setups.", that's not true. Shields regen at a set curve, the resists you have are static - there is no changing factor in them. The changing factor is the amount of damage taken. You can sit there and tell me you do 650 DPS, but you won't do that much on smaller targets, you don't do that much if the target is moving, you don't do that much if the target has better resists, and you might not do anything if they outrun your missiles. I can always tank 1000 DPS. The only way that will change is if I start getting leadership or gang bonuses, in which case it only goes up. There is no way in game currently to make that decrease, and that's why I go for tank over gank.
The only reason I can see to active tank would be to fit scramblers, webbers, or some other mid slot item. If you've got other ships doing that (and you should, command ships make poor tacklers), there's no reason not to fit a great tank.
Never said you can't tank 1000DPS. The point I was trying to make is that you can tank the same with an active tank and do a ton more DPS. As for the '650 dps' comment. Same can be said about most ships. I would give you examples but you should know this by now, or so I hope.
Don't hate me, learn to love me |
Allestin Villimar
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Posted - 2007.09.17 02:32:00 -
[90]
Yeah, but that's the thing, you can't tank 1000 dps. You're only barely able to tank half of it.
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