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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
16844
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Posted - 2015.08.09 19:57:20 -
[31] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Malcanis wrote: See, T3s can't outdo the t2 cruisers in their speciality
They invalidate most t2 cruisers, most BC, command ships, and rival battleships in tank. That's some 57 ships the invalidate or match in power.
Which T2 cruiser is out powered in it's speciality role by a T3?
Now remember, T2 ships are supposed to be specialised - the best at what they do. We'll rule out HICs, Recons and Logis from even being considered for this because the gap isn't remotely close. Really, it's only the HACs that are in contention. Walk me through this:
Zealot (Laser projection) Sacrilege (Missiles) Cerberus (long range missiles) Eagle (ultra long range hybrid paint scratching) Ishtar (drones) Deimos (brawl range facerape DPS) Vagabond (high speed with cruiser DPS/EHP) Muninn (Med arty alpha hit and run)
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
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Iain Cariaba
1758
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Posted - 2015.08.09 20:03:29 -
[32] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Iain Cariaba wrote:Actually, all the people arguing whether or not the tengu needs some new nerf are forgetting one thing:
OP's entirempremise of the OPness of the tengu is based on a PvE fit, and ships in EvE are not balanced around PvE.
A t1 pvp frigate fit for mediocre kinetic tank and throwing EM damage will OMGWTFPWN a ratting tengu.
Edit: Oh, OP, I have an Ishtar fit and a Gila fit that will both, as you put it, facetank a Maze. T3s are very overpowered in pvp. Really? Then why does anyone fly anything else? Why aren't 100% of doctrines based around t3s then?
EvE is hard. It's harder if you're stupid.
I couldn't have said it better.
Will troll for a t-shirt.
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DeMichael Crimson
Republic University Minmatar Republic
51103
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Posted - 2015.08.09 20:17:21 -
[33] - Quote
Yeah, Tengu's are definitely overpowered compared to the other T3 Cruisers.
However nerfing the Tengu is not the answer. Buffing the other T3 Cruisers, especially the Loki, is the correct answer.
DMC
'The Plan' | California Eve Players | Proposal - The Endless Battle
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16480
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Posted - 2015.08.09 20:20:44 -
[34] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:baltec1 wrote:Malcanis wrote: See, T3s can't outdo the t2 cruisers in their speciality
They invalidate most t2 cruisers, most BC, command ships, and rival battleships in tank. That's some 57 ships the invalidate or match in power. Which T2 cruiser is out powered in it's speciality role by a T3? Now remember, T2 ships are supposed to be specialised - the best at what they do. We'll rule out HICs, Recons and Logis from even being considered for this because the gap isn't remotely close. Really, it's only the HACs that are in contention. Walk me through this: Zealot (Laser projection) Sacrilege (Missiles) Cerberus (long range missiles) Eagle (ultra long range hybrid paint scratching) Ishtar (drones) Deimos (brawl range facerape DPS) Vagabond (high speed with cruiser DPS/EHP) Muninn (Med arty alpha hit and run)
All of them.
There is zero reason to take out an eagle over a railgu for example, both do the exact same job only the tengu does it with a battleship level tank while cap stable, slippery pete can match the eagle while being insanely hard to probe down and is immune to bubbles. We also cant rule out recons as the T3s are more effective than the recons and who wants to fly a pilgrim when a legion can do the same thing but with bubble immunity? The diemost gets outclassed massively in tank and the fact that the proteus can do the same job while being cap stable (while running a mwd), longer point range and deals 100 more damage if using t2 mods.
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Vertical Beef
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
2
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Posted - 2015.08.09 20:41:46 -
[35] - Quote
Calling for nerfs usually ends badly. |
Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
32158
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Posted - 2015.08.09 20:48:43 -
[36] - Quote
Baltec saying everything I would have. High five.
You know how PLEX discussions happen like clockwork, and it's a dead horse topic? Balance is the same way. You're attempting to apply logic and reason to a situation where the only math concerned is a direct comparison of usage statistics. Basically, a thing will be buffed or nerfed until it is used with the same frequency as the rest of its class.
It's not an uncommon dilemma for developers to know something is more powerful than players recognize with use. The issue I take with balance by usage is the simplicity of that method is such that a monkey could do it. What I'd like to see is ship attributes that are designed around fun.
In the meantime, there is a ship popularity chart that supports the attributes of ships. Like a crutch, usage stats alleviate the need for a developer to defend a counterintuitive balance pass to other CCPs who don't understand the game mechanics.
That sounds like a blatant insult, but CCP Rise made a comment about the tracking formula during AT 10(?) that is still fresh in my mind. I've studied the tracking formula for years and I still don't understand it.
I would love to find the clip for you, but effort. I don't recall who his cohost was, it might be Sir Squeebles or Dolan.
If you can corner a dev, ask them questions about the tracking or missile damage formulas, or about the evolution of stealth bombers from frigates to destroyers (by stats). You will likely find the answer you didn't know you were looking for: Oh damn. They don't understand the game and ship balance is done by a bunch of stat-worshipping monkeys.
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
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Loneball
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
4
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Posted - 2015.08.09 20:51:31 -
[37] - Quote
Nerf all T3's Should only be 10% stronger than a T2, with T2 being only 15% stronger than a T1.
Exponential power increases surrounding similar sized hulls = LoL WTZ |
Ripblade Falconpunch
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
340
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Posted - 2015.08.09 20:52:06 -
[38] - Quote
A Tier 3 is better than a Tier 2 in some cases. Shocking.
The more ISK you spend on blinging them, the better they get. Shocking.
Specialized fittings can be stupidly OP for the purpose they are specialized for, especially in PVE. Shocking.
EVE is not balanced around PVE and never will be. Shocking!
A T3 can have a tank that rivals a battleship - no **** sherlock. They also cost more for the hull and subs than most BS cost for the whole fit, and you lose 4.5 days worth of skill points each and every time you lose one.
Still not seeing the problem. |
Seraph Essael
eXceed Inc. Triumvirate.
1131
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Posted - 2015.08.09 20:54:01 -
[39] - Quote
Leave the Tengu the **** alone...
Quoted from Doc Fury: "Concerned citizens: Doc seldom plays EVE on the weekends during spring and summer, so you will always be on your own for a couple days a week. Doc spends that time collecting kittens for the on-going sacrifices, engaging in reckless outdoor activities, and speaking in the 3rd person."
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Erica Dusette
Isogen 5
49629
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Posted - 2015.08.09 20:54:56 -
[40] - Quote
Seraph Essael wrote:Leave the Tengu the **** alone...
Jack Miton > you be nice or you're sleeping on the couch again!
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Iain Cariaba
1759
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Posted - 2015.08.09 21:05:41 -
[41] - Quote
Seraph Essael wrote:Leave the Tengu the **** alone... Anyone else read this in their head using the voice of the "leave brittney alone" kid?
EvE is hard. It's harder if you're stupid.
I couldn't have said it better.
Will troll for a t-shirt.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16481
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Posted - 2015.08.09 21:06:37 -
[42] - Quote
Iain Cariaba wrote:Seraph Essael wrote:Leave the Tengu the **** alone... Anyone else read this in their head using the voice of the "leave brittney alone" kid?
Yep.
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Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon That Escalated Quickly.
1622
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Posted - 2015.08.09 21:09:35 -
[43] - Quote
Henzo Enecha wrote:So I heard one day, that Tengus are quite effective in doing stuff. So I went ahead and made myself a few fits in EFT's latest version. Before I go into any detail of the fits mentioned above, I should say, that a Tengu is capable of facetanking a 10/10 DED Complex with a fit, that has lesser stats. AND, if you want to do something else with it, just bring a mobile depot with you to refit into other specializations, ex. Covert ops nullified low/null explo, or general traveling. The fit I used, Is not (too) very expensive, sure it has it's 'pimp' parts, but the price is well under a billion. The fit has 3780dps tank against Guristas Pirates, with a Pith X-Type Large SB 696dps with a range of 30.4km with Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II's It moves 633m/s with 10mn T2 Afterburner on On top of all that, it is cap stable at 40%! And the full thing costs only 700mil in Jita 4-4!Note: Omni tank with 300mil invuls (Gistum B) 1946dps tank remaining cap stable is possible, but very expensive. Other option are Domination Adaptive Invuls, which are only 70mil a piece, yielding 1273 dps tank against omni damage. Now this all brings the question, why? Why is this kind of thing even possible? Why should this even exist? Can any other Strategic cruiser (or any subcap ship) pull these numbers? Don't believe me? Look at this, and try it out yourself if you'd like: EFT Screencapture of the fit with all skills level VNow ofcourse this is purely on paper, due to my current set of skills I would be able to fly it in around 3 months forward from this date, yet it is unbelievable that it can pull those numbers, even on paper. Why would you even fly any other ship when you can get a Tengu? Or should this be nerfed, which would possibly create more diversity in usage of ships? I would like ask CCP, how the f*ck can a cruiser pull a 3,7k dps tank, facetank 10/10 DED sites, and be balanced, or is it balanced after all? //If this is in the wrong subforum, feel free to move it.
I said it multiple times. There is no need for a nerf of T3s but they definitly need to be more expensive again.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16481
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Posted - 2015.08.09 21:09:43 -
[44] - Quote
Loneball wrote:Nerf all T3's Should only be 10% stronger than a T2, with T2 being only 15% stronger than a T1.
Exponential power increases surrounding similar sized hulls = LoL WTZ
They need to be less powerful than t2 cruisers otherwise what's the point in t2 cruisers?
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16481
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Posted - 2015.08.09 21:10:32 -
[45] - Quote
Eugene Kerner wrote:
I said it multiple times. There is no need fpr a nerf of T3s but they definitly need to be moar expensive again.
Price is never an obstacle.
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Akirei Scytale
Okami Syndicate
3547
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Posted - 2015.08.09 21:14:31 -
[46] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Loneball wrote:Nerf all T3's Should only be 10% stronger than a T2, with T2 being only 15% stronger than a T1.
Exponential power increases surrounding similar sized hulls = LoL WTZ They need to be less powerful than t2 cruisers otherwise what's the point in t2 cruisers?
I dunno, what's the point of T1 cruisers? The tengu does need nerfs IMO, but nerfing all T3s to the point they're worse than T2s would be silly - they'd just become expensive ships that can refit into filling a wide variety of roles badly. No one wants a crappy gankboat that can refit into a crappy booster. |
Specia1 K
State War Academy Caldari State
100
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Posted - 2015.08.09 21:18:26 -
[47] - Quote
Is a 500k EHP Proti fit still viable? Hmm...
[Proteus, Tanky] Proteus Defensive - Augmented Plating Proteus Electronics - Friction Extension Processor Proteus Propulsion - Localized Injectors Proteus Offensive - Drone Synthesis Projector Proteus Engineering - Power Core Multiplier
4x Heavy Electron Blaster II (Void M)
True Sansha Warp Scrambler True Sansha Stasis Webifier Corelum C-Type 10MN Afterburner
Coreli A-Type Adaptive Nano Plating Centus X-Type Armor EM Hardener Core X-Type Armor Explosive Hardener Core X-Type Armor Thermic Hardener 3x Syndicate 1600mm Steel Plates
3x Medium Trimark Armor Pump II
2x Ogre II 2x Hammerhead II 1x Hobgoblin II
With an EG-603 implant, I get 395K EHP.
And it's a pvp fit too...
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
32158
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Posted - 2015.08.09 21:19:37 -
[48] - Quote
If subsystems were locked in place like rigs, would that appease anyone?
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
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Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
377
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Posted - 2015.08.09 21:21:32 -
[49] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:If subsystems were locked in place like rigs, would that appease anyone?
The people who build T3 components... everyone else would be pissed.
Best description of Eve Online and why the community is the way it is
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16481
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Posted - 2015.08.09 21:25:52 -
[50] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote:baltec1 wrote:Loneball wrote:Nerf all T3's Should only be 10% stronger than a T2, with T2 being only 15% stronger than a T1.
Exponential power increases surrounding similar sized hulls = LoL WTZ They need to be less powerful than t2 cruisers otherwise what's the point in t2 cruisers? I dunno, what's the point of T1 cruisers? The tengu does need nerfs IMO, but nerfing all T3s to the point they're worse than T2s would be silly - they'd just become expensive ships that can refit into filling a wide variety of roles badly. No one wants a crappy gankboat that can refit into a crappy booster.
Their point is to be adaptable, now overshadow specialised ships in their area of specialty. T1 cruisers are the base model, t2 are more heavily specialised into an area and t3 are supposed to be very adaptable. Right now not only do they invalidate most cruisers but also the ship class above them and rival the ship class above that in many areas too.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16481
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Posted - 2015.08.09 21:27:28 -
[51] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:If subsystems were locked in place like rigs, would that appease anyone?
Frankly I would remove the rig slots.
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Erica Dusette
Isogen 5
49634
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Posted - 2015.08.09 21:31:39 -
[52] - Quote
The basis of this thread seems to revolve around PVE. Not something I've really done much of so I can't really relate/agree/disagree personally. But from a PVP perspective I have to say the Tengu is certainly not overpowered. Slippery petes are probably the only OP-ish way to fit/fly one and even those take some serious skill, numbers and good FCing to be used effectively.
It's a brave pilot who cuts their trade in a cloaky Tengu. Just doesn't compare to the others (though still a ton of fun). Nothing nerf-worthy there.
Non-cloaky you have your HAMgus and JAMgus, both great but both also useless against many fleet comps (armor T3 fleet > shield, everytime). Nothing nerf-worthy there.
We have a Tengu shield doctrine in corp and when it's called we still find at least half the fleet choose the budget version (Gilas usually, sometimes cerbs). There's plenty of reasons to choose something other than T3; skill limitations, budget and fighting-environment (likelihood of dying) to name just a few. And a lot of people do.
Sounds like you need tougher rats, either that or PVE is Tengu's niche.
Nothing wrong with that.
Jack Miton > you be nice or you're sleeping on the couch again!
Part-Time Wormhole Pirate pâä Full-Time Supermodel
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Specia1 K
State War Academy Caldari State
100
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Posted - 2015.08.09 21:32:04 -
[53] - Quote
[quote=Henzo Enecha] Can you give me an example of ships that can do that? Bonus points for other T3 Cruiser fits. /quote]
At least do pvp fits please. |
Akirei Scytale
Okami Syndicate
3548
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Posted - 2015.08.09 21:42:55 -
[54] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: Their point is to be adaptable, now overshadow specialised ships in their area of specialty. T1 cruisers are the base model, t2 are more heavily specialised into an area and t3 are supposed to be very adaptable. Right now not only do they invalidate most cruisers but also the ship class above them and rival the ship class above that in many areas too.
I really do think they should remain better than T2 combat ships simply due to their cost - they are not flexible anywhere except the fitting screen. Making them weaker would mean you'd be paying more for an inferior ship that you could refit to another role once you realize how terrible it is, only to discover the same thing. |
Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
377
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Posted - 2015.08.09 21:47:09 -
[55] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Akirei Scytale wrote:baltec1 wrote:Loneball wrote:Nerf all T3's Should only be 10% stronger than a T2, with T2 being only 15% stronger than a T1.
Exponential power increases surrounding similar sized hulls = LoL WTZ They need to be less powerful than t2 cruisers otherwise what's the point in t2 cruisers? I dunno, what's the point of T1 cruisers? The tengu does need nerfs IMO, but nerfing all T3s to the point they're worse than T2s would be silly - they'd just become expensive ships that can refit into filling a wide variety of roles badly. No one wants a crappy gankboat that can refit into a crappy booster. Their point is to be adaptable, now overshadow specialised ships in their area of specialty. T1 cruisers are the base model, t2 are more heavily specialised into an area and t3 are supposed to be very adaptable. Right now not only do they invalidate most cruisers but also the ship class above them and rival the ship class above that in many areas too.
But the Tengu and all other T3's are out EWared by Recons. They are in most cases out DPS'd by HACs (or at least can't apply as well). The fits like an AC Loki where they win the DPS battle they lose the tracking and range battle. Their tanks are impressive, but I can get just as good a tank from a Command Ship. And their niche really is PVE and Nullified BSery.
Thats not overpowered. Hacs are great. I would much rather have a zealot than a laser legion, I would much rather have a Vigilant than a Proti unless I am in a WH. I would much rather have an Orthrus than a Tengu.
The blanket statement that T3 outdoes all the T2 cruisers is just plain false. Yes a Neut legion is the only way to have tank AND neut... but you sacrifice cost/skills/mobility to get there.
But this thread is about PVE, and yes the Tengu is the master advanced cruiser hull at PVE. Now... some could and will argue that the Gila is better at PVE, but that is a different discussion.
Best description of Eve Online and why the community is the way it is
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Akirei Scytale
Okami Syndicate
3550
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Posted - 2015.08.09 21:48:14 -
[56] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Malcanis wrote: See, T3s can't outdo the t2 cruisers in their speciality
They invalidate most t2 cruisers, most BC, command ships, and rival battleships in tank. That's some 57 ships the invalidate or match in power.
This is so utterly wrong.
T2 cruisers all tend to have very focused bonuses. Recons for example, or Logis. All much better at those roles than T3s. If you're thinking about HACs, T3s aren't as price-efficient as them.
BCs? Come on. Comparing T1 to T3 is frankly silly, and again, price is an important balancing point.
Command ships? All command ships are 50% more effective at boosting than T3s. T3s are a little more flexible with what they boost and can covops cloak, but cannot hope to really bricktank and boost anywhere nearly as effectively as a command ship. And non-boosting command ships are also much scarier in combat.
Battleships in tank? Definitely not Marauders, which are a lower tech level - and really only the Proteus can rival a BS in terms of EHP, and that setup moves pretty much like a battleship too, without access to large guns. |
Specia1 K
State War Academy Caldari State
100
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Posted - 2015.08.09 21:52:51 -
[57] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote: Now... some could and will argue that the Gila is better at PVE, but that is a different discussion.
I Win at EvE?
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Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
377
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Posted - 2015.08.09 21:55:49 -
[58] - Quote
Specia1 K wrote:Market McSelling Alt wrote: Now... some could and will argue that the Gila is better at PVE, but that is a different discussion. I Win at EvE?
No no, that fit belongs in the thread about the guy crying an NPC agent lied to him... Truly OP if we actually had that much DPS on a Gila
Best description of Eve Online and why the community is the way it is
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Gallowmere Rorschach
Enlightened Industries Goonswarm Federation
1054
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Posted - 2015.08.09 22:00:04 -
[59] - Quote
From a pvp perspective, the only factor keeping me from saying that T3s (especially the Tengu) are completely broken, is the SP loss upon explosion. Nothing quite like fighting a war of attrition against guys who like using them, and intentionally killing the same pilots night after night.
Now, from the PvE aspect, there's nothing all that special about them, when you factor in all other options. Even after the recent slot nerfs, there's not much that a Tengu can do, PvE wise, that an Ishtar can't do just as well, except ease of travel. Bonus points for the fact that it doesn't need to use ammo. The Gila is in a similar position, but not quite as strong as the Ishtar, due to the fact that it uses medium drones instead of larges. The Rattlesnake does very well, except in areas where it's huge sig can get it killed easily (like various 10/10s). As a nod to another notable T3, the Proteus can do, quite literally, every single thing that the Tengu can. |
Specia1 K
State War Academy Caldari State
100
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Posted - 2015.08.09 22:01:42 -
[60] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote:Specia1 K wrote:Market McSelling Alt wrote: Now... some could and will argue that the Gila is better at PVE, but that is a different discussion. I Win at EvE? No no, that fit belongs in the thread about the guy crying an NPC agent lied to him... Truly OP if we actually had that much DPS on a Gila
Oh noes I been lied to. |
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