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Tanuki Three
Triple Tanuki Tech
2
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Posted - 2015.08.22 20:31:02 -
[1] - Quote
Why do we get a cloak after jumping through a gate, but not when exiting a stations? The screen and UI goes black and you're completely helpless and vulnerable until it loads up for you to even try to execute an instant warp bookmark away from the station. I'm sure there's a good reason, but I've heard a lot of people complain about gate camps being easier to escape than station camps.
This isn't a complaint, I'm actually interested in the reasoning and mechanics behind it so I can be better prepared to combat it.
Faction Warfare has been very fun for me so far, even though all I'm doing is running complexes and running away from everyone. So far I've learned how to create safe warp spots in random locations around a system, and how to see people coming on the Dscan. I also learned that all it takes is a moment of inattention or bad luck for someone to catch you and scram you(lots of people are using 3-4 scrams these days). I was once even caught by a venture because I wanted to see if it was actually possible for it to be a real threat(it was to my cheap frig).
I've learned that I don't care about losing ships as long as I'm making 10x as much ISK as the ship costs. I'm not afraid to zip around lowsec like I used to be. I can evade 9 out of 10 pirates who try to catch me. I've finally come to agree that even rookie pilots in frigates can contribute and have fun doing PVP at low skill levels in cheap ships. When I played a few years ago I really didn't think it was possible. Carebear membership resigned.
I've learned that gate camps are not 100% a death sentence. I've escaped many. But I've also had ships destroyed within a second of dropping cloak to try and escape. Got in a huge argument with a veteran about whether 'Insta-lock' is actually possible. My stance is that I lost a ship so fast that it literally felt like clicking the warp button caused my ship to explode. His argument was that it only appeared that way because of lag and/or Adrenalin rush(which I didn't have. I was completely calm). I'm not completely certain now how it happened, and I'm not willing to completely disregard the word of someone who's been playing for years. More insight is needed.
I found out how FW control and tiers work, and that explained why there were so many defending players of the opposite faction in zones they already control. But I still haven't been able to figure out why there are 2-3 times as many neutral pirates in FW space as there are combined pilots of both sides of the war itself.
I learned how to convert LP into lots of ISK. I also learned that JITA is more dangerous when you're in FW.
I learned that even seemingly innocent information given in militia can result in spies taking advantage. I posted info about an empty system with a bunch of sites to run, and a few minutes later an entire fleet of pirates showed up and camped out for about 20 minutes. Maybe coincidence, but most of militia chat didn't think so. Even so, the lesson is valid: Posting certain types of intel in public channels is risky.
Hmm...what else....
Seems like most pirates believe that fitting warp stabs is cowardly and unfair, and they will attempt to taunt and otherwise verbally abuse you if you fit them. I think they're just mad that they didn't get easy kills, but maybe that's just me. On the flip side, many pirates are very polite and will answer questions about how they ganked you if you ask nicely. I've gotten in the habit of taunting people in local chat out of good natured fun if I get away, but thanking them for a lesson in combat if they catch me and blow up my ship(I've literally learned something from every gank).
I'm sure I'll learn more over the coming weeks. The main thing I take away from all this is that FW and PVP had a lot more enjoyment to it than I ever thought was possible. And I can tell I've only scratched the surface.
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Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1283
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Posted - 2015.08.22 20:53:26 -
[2] - Quote
Seems you are doing well ... although you get no cloak you have a 30s invulnerability timer after undock if you don't do anything else except stopping your ship with ctrl+space. Looking forward to catch you.
I'm my own NPC alt.
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Tsukino Stareine
Sock Robbers Inc. Low-Class
1332
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Posted - 2015.08.22 21:00:02 -
[3] - Quote
Tanuki Three wrote:Why do we get a cloak after jumping through a gate, but not when exiting a stations? The screen and UI goes black and you're completely helpless and vulnerable until it loads up for you to even try to execute an instant warp bookmark away from the station. I'm sure there's a good reason, but I've heard a lot of people complain about gate camps being easier to escape than station camps.
You're invulnerable for I think 30 seconds (might be less) when you undock if you DO NOT MOVE. The best way to counteract station campers is by making what is known as an "instant undock" bookmark. This is a bookmark you can warp to as soon as you undock and it leaves potential attackers unable to lock you at all.
Tanuki Three wrote:I've learned that gate camps are not 100% a death sentence. I've escaped many. But I've also had ships destroyed within a second of dropping cloak to try and escape. Got in a huge argument with a veteran about whether 'Insta-lock' is actually possible. My stance is that I lost a ship so fast that it literally felt like clicking the warp button caused my ship to explode. His argument was that it only appeared that way because of lag and/or Adrenalin rush(which I didn't have. I was completely calm). I'm not completely certain now how it happened, and I'm not willing to completely disregard the word of someone who's been playing for years. More insight is needed.
Server ticks are 1 second long I believe and if the guy has a 1 second or below lock time on you, it's possible that they caught you right as you decloaked. It can also have something to do with lag.
Tanuki Three wrote:I found out how FW control and tiers work, and that explained why there were so many defending players of the opposite faction in zones they already control. But I still haven't been able to figure out why there are 2-3 times as many neutral pirates in FW space as there are combined pilots of both sides of the war itself.
People like to fight in low sec without the drawbacks of being in a Militia, simple as that.
Tanuki Three wrote:Seems like most pirates believe that fitting warp stabs is cowardly and unfair, and they will attempt to taunt and otherwise verbally abuse you if you fit them. I think they're just mad that they didn't get easy kills, but maybe that's just me. On the flip side, many pirates are very polite and will answer questions about how they ganked you if you ask nicely. I've gotten in the habit of taunting people in local chat out of good natured fun if I get away, but thanking them for a lesson in combat if they catch me and blow up my ship(I've literally learned something from every gank).
It's just them being salty when they think they've finally found a fight and you warp off without even attempting to fight back. Otherwise just keep flying and make sure you learn from each explosion and you'll get far :) |
Tanuki Three
Triple Tanuki Tech
2
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Posted - 2015.08.22 23:42:51 -
[4] - Quote
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
You're invulnerable for I think 30 seconds (might be less) when you undock if you DO NOT MOVE. The best way to counteract station campers is by making what is known as an "instant undock" bookmark. This is a bookmark you can warp to as soon as you undock and it leaves potential attackers unable to lock you at all.
How does this actually work? Do I have to mash the 'Stop Ship' button as soon as the UI loads up? Or just not touch anything? I have a bookmark I made several thousand KM outside of the station in a straight line from undock. But when I tried to use it last time I got exploded before the black screen and UI finished loading.
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Dale Liathain
YakFruit LLC
2
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Posted - 2015.08.23 00:52:00 -
[5] - Quote
Either they are working together or they are all in safes waiting for someone to be somewhere they can warp to. |
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
715
|
Posted - 2015.08.23 01:49:14 -
[6] - Quote
Tanuki Three wrote:Tsukino Stareine wrote:
You're invulnerable for I think 30 seconds (might be less) when you undock if you DO NOT MOVE. The best way to counteract station campers is by making what is known as an "instant undock" bookmark. This is a bookmark you can warp to as soon as you undock and it leaves potential attackers unable to lock you at all.
How does this actually work? Do I have to mash the 'Stop Ship' button as soon as the UI loads up? Or just not touch anything? Mashing the stop button is something. You can do nothing. Don't touch anything, don't do anything and you are invulnerable for about 30 seconds after undocking.
Did I mention the part about not touching anything? |
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
715
|
Posted - 2015.08.23 01:52:26 -
[7] - Quote
Also just for future reference experience is the best teacher. Experimentation is one of the better ways to gain experience. With that in mind anytime you have a question about anything in Eve just try it out or play around with it.
With regards to this specific topic get a friend and dock and undock while targeting each other to see how it works from both ends. Then you will know without question how it works. |
Tanuki Three
Triple Tanuki Tech
3
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Posted - 2015.08.23 02:52:19 -
[8] - Quote
ergherhdfgh wrote: Mashing the stop button is something. You can do nothing. Don't touch anything, don't do anything and you are invulnerable for about 30 seconds after undocking.
Did I mention the part about not touching anything?
I will try that next time I'm in Jita. There's always some jerk station camping there. It's probably good ISK too.......
Dale Liathain wrote:Either they are working together or they are all in safes waiting for someone to be somewhere they can warp to.
So basically they're all fishing, waiting for someone like me to come along, only to watch as I get away from them because I'm not stupid? I guess eventually someone screws up and they get a kill, and that makes it all worthwhile. Whatever floats their boat, and at least that makes a kind of sense, and explains why they're so salty. It doesn't explain why there's so damn MANY of them though.
On the topic of scanning though, how difficult would it be to scan these guys and turn the tables on them? |
FT Diomedes
The Graduates Get Off My Lawn
1622
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Posted - 2015.08.23 03:28:14 -
[9] - Quote
Tanuki Three wrote:
On the topic of scanning though, how difficult would it be to scan these guys and turn the tables on them?
It's not hard to combat scan someone down - you might check out the Tech 3 Destroyers. They are pretty much designed to do this...
Just make sure you know what you are doing if/when you do scan them down and jump on them.
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. So, why do I post here?
I'm stubborn.
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Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1284
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Posted - 2015.08.23 04:50:36 -
[10] - Quote
ergherhdfgh wrote:Tanuki Three wrote:Tsukino Stareine wrote:
You're invulnerable for I think 30 seconds (might be less) when you undock if you DO NOT MOVE. The best way to counteract station campers is by making what is known as an "instant undock" bookmark. This is a bookmark you can warp to as soon as you undock and it leaves potential attackers unable to lock you at all.
How does this actually work? Do I have to mash the 'Stop Ship' button as soon as the UI loads up? Or just not touch anything? Mashing the stop button is something. You can do nothing. Don't touch anything, don't do anything and you are invulnerable for about 30 seconds after undocking. Did I mention the part about not touching anything? As mentioned, stopping your ship with ctrl+space will not break your invulnerability. This is crucial as it usually allows for a safe redock (after the 10s session timer is gone) if the environment is unpleasant outside.
I'm my own NPC alt.
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ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Snuffed Out
8529
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Posted - 2015.08.23 05:06:17 -
[11] - Quote
(forgive me, I'm going to chop up your post a bit to go with my writing flow)
Tanuki Three wrote:Why do we get a cloak after jumping through a gate, but not when exiting a stations? The screen and UI goes black and you're completely helpless and vulnerable until it loads up for you to even try to execute an instant warp bookmark away from the station. I'm sure there's a good reason, but I've heard a lot of people complain about gate camps being easier to escape than station camps.
This isn't a complaint, I'm actually interested in the reasoning and mechanics behind it so I can be better prepared to combat it. So... here's the thing...
Back when EVE was young there were a lot (and I mean A LOT) of connection issues. Two of the biggest issues were when the server "hands you over" from one node to another (see: station environments and space run on different nodes... different systems (or clusters of systems) often run on different nodes).
For stations, the solution was simple; introduce an "invulnerability timer." Upon undocking, a player has basically immune from target locks, damage, and bumping for 30 seconds or until the player performs an action... whichever comes first. And when I say "performs an action" I am referring to any action other than killing engine power (Ctrl-SPACE).
For Stargates... that is a little trickier. You could have an invulnerability timer... but people would know where you are and block off any possible escape before you even load the grid (which was the main problem the DEVs were trying to work around). So the introduced a 1 minute "invulnerable cloaking field" whenever a person jumped through a stargate.
Now seeing as how the cloak timer is superior to just a plain-jane invulnerability timer... why didn't stations get the same treatment as stargates? Because unlike Stargates, you can re-dock at stations. And you might have extra help and/or stuff in that station to give you an extra edge.
Basically... the DEVs did not want to give too many mechanical advantages to defending players for mechanics that were originally designed as workarounds for lag and connectivity issues.
Tanuki Three wrote:I found out how FW control and tiers work, and that explained why there were so many defending players of the opposite faction in zones they already control. But I still haven't been able to figure out why there are 2-3 times as many neutral pirates in FW space as there are combined pilots of both sides of the war itself. They are looking for fights and kills without the restrictions that Faction Warfare brings (see: station lock-out mechanics).
Also... low-sec existed before Faction Warfare did. FW does not get "exclusivity" just because it has a extra "badges" on the side of the screen. (NOTE: you will find this a lot in EVE. Just because there is an "official" title or claim to something (or lack of thereof), it does not mean it is exactly that way. There are many aspects of the game that are purely abstract and a lot of players here like to keep it that way since it keeps a certain dynamic of the game "loose" and "shifty"... which is fun for many of us)
Tanuki Three wrote:Seems like most pirates believe that fitting warp stabs is cowardly and unfair, and they will attempt to taunt and otherwise verbally abuse you if you fit them. I think they're just mad that they didn't get easy kills, but maybe that's just me. Mmmm... I wonder why... hmmm...
Tanuki Three wrote:all I'm doing is running complexes and running away from everyone. Yeaaaaaaaaah.
Look... those guys are after fights (as I pointed out above). Whether it is easy or hard, they do not know. They can only guesstimate and hope it isn't a trap. And as far as they are concerned... FW is there to encourage people to fight. You aren't fighting, you are farming. There is lies why they might a little "irked" by you.
Just to give you some perspective.
Tanuki Three wrote:I've learned that gate camps are not 100% a death sentence. I've escaped many. But I've also had ships destroyed within a second of dropping cloak to try and escape. Got in a huge argument with a veteran about whether 'Insta-lock' is actually possible. My stance is that I lost a ship so fast that it literally felt like clicking the warp button caused my ship to explode. His argument was that it only appeared that way because of lag and/or Adrenalin rush(which I didn't have. I was completely calm). I'm not completely certain now how it happened, and I'm not willing to completely disregard the word of someone who's been playing for years. More insight is needed. Sounds like a combination of bad luck for you, lag, and good luck for the attacker.
As someone else pointed out above, EVE runs on 1 second "ticks" (see: it accepts, processes, calculates, and sends the [last series of] command(s) that you punched into the client once per second).
Where you live in the world and what your ISP is also matters. If you live in Europe (and especially the UK), you are closer to the server cluster and thus there is less lag time between you and the sever (see: less network voodoo and stupid stuff happens). If you are using COMCAST like more than a few of us here in the USA use... you will find the occasional "hiccup" that shuts everything down for a few seconds to a minute.
As for the rest of it... very good. You seem to be finding your feet in EVE. All I would suggest is to take the dive into Faction Warfare without the "safety" of warp core stabs. You might be pleasantly surprised to see how well your ship can perform against others if you fit it purely for combat rather than running away.
How did you Veterans start?
The Skillpoint System and You
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voetius
Quiet Days in Clichy
367
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Posted - 2015.08.23 08:26:45 -
[12] - Quote
Tsukino Stareine wrote:Tanuki Three wrote:I've learned that gate camps are not 100% a death sentence. I've escaped many. But I've also had ships destroyed within a second of dropping cloak to try and escape. Got in a huge argument with a veteran about whether 'Insta-lock' is actually possible. My stance is that I lost a ship so fast that it literally felt like clicking the warp button caused my ship to explode. His argument was that it only appeared that way because of lag and/or Adrenalin rush(which I didn't have. I was completely calm). I'm not completely certain now how it happened, and I'm not willing to completely disregard the word of someone who's been playing for years. More insight is needed. Server ticks are 1 second long I believe and if the guy has a 1 second or below lock time on you, it's possible that they caught you right as you decloaked. It can also have something to do with lag.
There is a good article on themittani.com that explains server ticks, it is a compilation of what players understand with some added clarification and confirmation from CCP at one of the player events. In summary: server ticks are 1 second for the overview so you cannot be locked in under one second. Of course, it may seem like that when you are in a stressful situation :) |
Cherri Minoa
IronPig Sev3rance
86
|
Posted - 2015.08.23 10:07:26 -
[13] - Quote
Let's clarify this undocking thing.
When you undock, you have 30 seconds invulnerability as long as you do nothing, EXCEPT stopping your ship. So ...
1. As you get the "undocking confirmed" message start clicking CTRL + SPACE until you see the "ship stopping" message 2. Notice the station is at 0m 3. You now have 30 seconds to look around, decide what to do, and if you choose to dock it will be instant
If you do not stop your ship, you still have the 30 seconds, but your ship will travel outside the docking ring which means that you cannot instantly re-dock, and will be at risk if you try. Another warning: if you have a very fast ship and a station with a very small docking ring (plus maybe a little lag) you can drift outside the docking ring even when you try to stop. You can tell becasue the station distance will be >0m. It's always best to test first.
By the way, as you undock and have the station at 0m, bookmark that as "station insta-dock". If you then need to dock at a station that is camped (but not bubbled) you warp to your bookmark rather than the station itself.
Insta-undocks should also be set for stations you use regularly, but they are not 100% reliable, so use with caution.
"If I had been censured every time I have run my ship, or fleets under my command, into great danger, I should have long ago been out of the Service" - Horatio Nelson
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Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
5290
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Posted - 2015.08.23 10:58:47 -
[14] - Quote
Tanuki Three wrote:Why do we get a cloak after jumping through a gate, but not when exiting a stations? The screen and UI goes black and you're completely helpless and vulnerable until it loads up for you to even try to execute an instant warp bookmark away from the station. I'm sure there's a good reason, but I've heard a lot of people complain about gate camps being easier to escape than station camps. That's whay you are invulnerable for 30 seconds after undocking: to give your client a chance to load. It takes a couple of seconds, so the invulnerable time may seem less to you.
You can stop your ship, but anything else will end the invulnerability period.
FWIW, Jita 4 moon 1 is aligned with the undock of Jita 4-4. Make a bookmark a random distance between. Be warned though, that you can still be probed and warped to. Also make insta-dock bookmarks at 0 km on a station, so you don't have to slow-boat to docking range.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5878996#post5878996 |
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1284
|
Posted - 2015.08.23 11:31:14 -
[15] - Quote
Maybe you know already, but I see that more often than not, people sitting still on a safe spot ...that means, I can warp to them at zero after probing, which means certain death. So always be aligned to something and at max prop mod speed, MWD are best here of cause ...
I'm my own NPC alt.
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Tanuki Three
Triple Tanuki Tech
3
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Posted - 2015.08.23 15:36:12 -
[16] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:
Basically... the DEVs did not want to give too many mechanical advantages to defending players for mechanics that were originally designed as workarounds for lag and connectivity issues.
I can understand that. I wonder that they haven't come up with something better between now and then, but I guess if it ain't broke, don't fix it. :)
ShahFluffers wrote: Also... low-sec existed before Faction Warfare did. FW does not get "exclusivity" just because it has a extra "badges" on the side of the screen. (NOTE: you will find this a lot in EVE. Just because there is an "official" title or claim to something (or lack of thereof), it does not mean it is exactly that way. There are many aspects of the game that are purely abstract and a lot of players here like to keep it that way since it keeps a certain dynamic of the game "loose" and "shifty"... which is fun for many of us)
I was just surprised at the ratio of neutrals to FW targets. I've been spending a lot of time roaming around the FW systems setting up random 'safe' spots. And virtually every system has at least 3-5 neutrals compared to maybe 1 or 2 FW pilots every 3rd system, if that. Except for the 'gateway' systems into lowsec, it seems like FW is less about warfare, and more about providing a predictable location in space for people to try and ambush.
I'm not really sure there's a good way to fix that, or that it even needs to be fixed.
ShahFluffers wrote:Yeaaaaaaaaah. Look... those guys are after fights (as I pointed out above). Whether it is easy or hard, they do not know. They can only guesstimate and hope it isn't a trap. And as far as they are concerned... FW is there to encourage people to fight. You aren't fighting, you are farming. There in lies why they might a little "irked" by you. Just to give you some perspective.
I should clarify. I'm not running away simply because all I want to do is farm. I'm running because I'm literally the smallest fish in the pond. In many systems I dont' have safe spots set up. My ship is cheap and fitted with weak mods because I have neither the ISK or the skills to equip better, and I'm still learning the basics of how FW/nullsec/pvp work.
This isn't some kind of cowardly desire to avoid combat. It's a calculated decision to avoid combat with other players until I think I have a decent chance of putting up a fight. Gimme a couple weeks to skill up and to be able to afford throwing ships at the learning process, and I'm going to start setting ambushes for these guys. They'll get all the fights out of me they could want.
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Tanuki Three
Triple Tanuki Tech
4
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Posted - 2015.08.23 16:57:41 -
[17] - Quote
I just discovered(through process of destroyed frigate and asking rookie chat) that pirates using an Astero are extremely dangerous due to not being able to see them coming until they're already inside a complex. I guess any ship with a cloaking device could pull it off, however. |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Snuffed Out
8530
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Posted - 2015.08.23 19:58:32 -
[18] - Quote
Tanuki Three wrote: I was just surprised at the ratio of neutrals to FW targets. I've been spending a lot of time roaming around the FW systems setting up random 'safe' spots. And virtually every system has at least 3-5 neutrals compared to maybe 1 or 2 FW pilots every 3rd system, if that. Except for the 'gateway' systems into lowsec, it seems like FW is less about warfare, and more about providing a predictable location in space for people to try and ambush.
I'm not really sure there's a good way to fix that, or that it even needs to be fixed. You are kind of on the right track.
The complexes where you orbit the "button" were designed to be "conflict points" to encourage more warfare (whether it be by neutrals or the hostile militia). Unfortunately, because it will always be more profitable and tactically sound to hop from one complex to another rather than defend it... they do not do their job (unless the defending team is at risk of losing their system).
And there is no easy way to modify this system towards its desired goal. Especially when you consider some of the design tenants of EVE; - no instancing - teamwork should be encouraged and rewarded - solo play should not become completely non-viable (exceptions apply). - tactics and playstyles should not be mechanically forced (merely encouraged) - no one should be completely safe
Tanuki Three wrote: I should clarify. I'm not running away simply because all I want to do is farm. I'm running because I'm literally the smallest fish in the pond. In many systems I dont' have safe spots set up. My ship is cheap and fitted with weak mods because I have neither the ISK or the skills to equip better, and I'm still learning the basics of how FW/nullsec/pvp work. This isn't some kind of cowardly desire to avoid combat. It's a calculated decision to avoid combat with other players until I think I have a decent chance of putting up a fight. Which is all completely understandable. Pick your fights after all.
But do know that even though you are the "smallest fish in the pond" you DO have the power to turn the tables and tear apart even the biggest of sharks. The trick in knowing what your options are and problem solving in more abstract ways.
Tanuki Three wrote: gimme a couple weeks to skill up and to be able to afford throwing ships at the learning process, and I'm going to start setting ambushes for these guys. They'll get all the fights out of me they could want. ;) The Skillpoint System and You
TLDR; even as a newbie you are stronger than you think. A few friends and a good plan can make all the difference.
How did you Veterans start?
The Skillpoint System and You
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Tanuki Three
Triple Tanuki Tech
5
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Posted - 2015.08.23 20:33:38 -
[19] - Quote
I get the point you're making in that linked post, although I don't agree with it 100%.
Many mods and fits can not be equipped without enough of the right skills. Added to that is the fact that a high SP pilot can also very likely sustain far greater losses than a new pilot, in terms of ISK, and also very likely has greater experience and knowledge of any given field(in this case the FW game of cat and mouse PVP around complexes).
All that adds up. While the difference between rank 4 and 5 of small hybrid turrets is individually very small, you have to add up ALL the small percentages and combine it with availability of better ships and mods(T2 stuff is vastly better than T1 stuff), and the ability to absorb losses. That can be overcome with numbers, of course. But the other side can do the exact same thing.
I totally get what you're saying, and I'm not downplaying my own abilities or potential at all. But I'm also the type of person who tries to be very realistic about things. "You have to know where you are before you can figure out where to go."
I'm sure in a few weeks I'll look back on these posts and think to myself, "Wow...I coulda been going nuts and killing people WAY earlier." But that's the benefit of hindsight. :) |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Snuffed Out
8531
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Posted - 2015.08.23 21:24:33 -
[20] - Quote
Tanuki Three wrote:Many mods and fits can not be equipped without enough of the right skills. True... but that is part of the process of learning in this game. Even as a veteran, there is no end to the frustration of fitting a ship. "Dammit! I need .5 more CPU to fit that!" "Wut? Why can't I fit that? Ohhhhh... rigs took up too much PG. But I NEED that rig!"
The relative inflexibility you are experiencing means you have to find creative ways to get around it. And this helps later on when options open up because even the best mods, fittings, and ships will give you the same problems... only at that point you might be stuck in a mentality of, "why didn't my awesome mods work there? Must fit better mods!" It is a trap I see veterans fall into very often.
Tanuki Three wrote:Added to that is the fact that a high SP pilot can also very likely sustain far greater losses than a new pilot, Insurance is your friend.
Also... if you attach yourself to a good corp, more often than not someone will give you a stack of frigates and say "go for it."
And don't dismiss Tech 1 stuff as "non-competitive." Sure, you may not win 1v1s against more experienced players with better equipment... but you CAN use them to great effect when you combine your strengths with others (yes, teaming up with others is a big deal in this game).
Tanuki Three wrote:All that adds up. While the difference between rank 4 and 5 of small hybrid turrets is individually very small, you have to add up ALL the small percentages and combine it with availability of better ships and mods(T2 stuff is vastly better than T1 stuff), and the ability to absorb losses. That can be overcome with numbers, of course. But the other side can do the exact same thing. Don't focus strictly on the raw numbers. There is more to it than that.
Speed and "smallness" can mitigate massive amounts of raw damage. Raw damage can be used to great effect if you have range. Even the most massive tank can be made worthless if you have a single energy neutralizer. Electronic Warfare can make even the most experienced veteran grind his/her teeth in frustration.
And yeah... the other side CAN theoretically do the same things. But then again... they may not have it at that precise moment... which can be to your advantage. This is where picking fights comes in.
Tanuki Three wrote:I totally get what you're saying, and I'm not downplaying my own abilities or potential at all. But I'm also the type of person who tries to be very realistic about things. "You have to know where you are before you can figure out where to go."
I'm sure in a few weeks I'll look back on these posts and think to myself, "Wow...I coulda been going nuts and killing people WAY earlier." But that's the benefit of hindsight. :) Indeed. I thought I was worthless as a PvPer for the first 6 months I was playing.
Then I took my poorly skilled, TERRIBAD-fitted Dominix (it had Remote Repairs) to aid an ally fighting on a stargate against some cruisers. This ally was in a frigate. I repped that frigate for so long and so well (purely by accident and dumb luck) that he killed one of the cruisers. The cruisers then disengaged and warped off thinking I was now going to turn my attention to them (if I had, I would have most certainly died).
At that moment I realized that despite my idiocy and lack of skill I had "helped."
How did you Veterans start?
The Skillpoint System and You
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Ralph King-Griffin
Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance
11368
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Posted - 2015.08.23 21:36:05 -
[21] - Quote
Confirming everything saha has said, I routinely fit t1 modules to ships, in some cases they're actually better than t2, in others they're the only thing that will fit. A good example would be compact microwarpdrives, I have lots of fits that require one of those or a downgrade to an afterburner.
Better the Devil you know.
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Tanuki Three
Triple Tanuki Tech
4
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Posted - 2015.08.24 04:06:24 -
[22] - Quote
So today I also had a real rough handful of encounters with a station camp in Jita and a gate camp in Highsec between Jita and my FW base which I thought was off the path of heavy traffic. This is an aspect of FW I wasn't really prepared for, but I tried a few things to get around it.
My instant warp undock bookmark didn't work because I guess it's fairly common to get 'bumped' upon exiting, which throws you out of alignment. Apparently this is just enough to make your warp out take forever to activate. It only costs me a destroyer this time, but I could see how it might be expensive down the road.
How do you deal wirh this situation?
Several people in chat suggested using a neutral alt to ship goods oit of Jita using a contract to transfer back and forth. That seems useful for gettng items to a new base of operations and for selling off loot gained from LP. Another person suggested I avoid Jita altogether. I tried movie to dodixie since its near an entrance to the FW lowsec systems. But.....turns out the NPCs don't le the side of the war I'm on. Im safe enough while docked, but i don't think I'd want to try moving anything slow through enemy Highsec. Plus all the enemy pilots too.....
I'm starting to see why neutrals want to avoid the hassle of FW, but I'm also starting to think this just might be part of the cost of business. I'd welcome any advice on how to streamline things a bit. |
Yang Aurilen
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
808
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Posted - 2015.08.24 05:13:00 -
[23] - Quote
Stop basing off Jita (and Nourvakaiken for that matter). Live in FW lowsec space and join a real FW corp. For hauling stuff use 3rd party haulers like red frog. Also use neutral alts for buying/selling stuff in Jita. Live in Black Rise if you want to avoid camps particularly the regional trade hub Ichoriya V. Live there if you want near Jita level prices and stocks. That station in particular is my second largest hangar and even that pales in comparison to my hangar in FW space.
Post with your NPC alt main and not your main main alt!
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Tanuki Three
Triple Tanuki Tech
4
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Posted - 2015.08.24 05:40:46 -
[24] - Quote
I'll give it a try. Honestly the only reason I go to jita is because I didn't know where else besides the other trade hubs to buy/sell supplies.
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voetius
Quiet Days in Clichy
368
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Posted - 2015.08.24 07:48:23 -
[25] - Quote
Tanuki Three wrote:I'll give it a try. Honestly the only reason I go to jita is because I didn't know where else, besides the other major trade hubs, to buy/sell supplies. Before getting myself into this whole PVP/FW thing I was a pretty massive carebear that hadn't played for a few years. Highsec only, no exceptions.
That's one of the main reasons I started this thread: To try and learn as much as possible and get insight beyond what I could learn on my own.
EDIT: Ooog.....yeah. Ichoriya buys things for half as much, and sells things for 2-3 times as much. Not the best option in the long run. Guess I'm going to have to mess around with an alt to haul and buy/sell.
What Yang says sounds good to me. Ichoriya isn't far from Jita, so I would put an alt in Jita 4-4 and buy stuff you need a bit in advance. DST (Deep Space Transport) are popular for hauling and they have 60,000 cargo in the fleet hangar so use public courier contracts from Jita and keep the size less than 60k, try using 500k per jump initially and see how that goes, I should think that would be ok if your collateral is usually going to be a couple of hundred million at most.
Consider joining the ingame channel Haulers Channel for more info on what Indie haulers get up to and you can post your public courier contracts there as well. Read the MOTD and links.
If there are items that you need in Ichoriya and the market isn't co-operating, drop me a mail with a list of items and I'll get one of my trade alts over and mark the prices 10% over Jita sell, that's what I normally use as my go-to price. DST sized preferably as I normally use public couriers for anything bigger than 60k. |
FT Diomedes
The Graduates Get Off My Lawn
1632
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Posted - 2015.08.24 09:03:48 -
[26] - Quote
Find the closest high sec station to your staging system. Move your stuff from 0.0/Low Sec into that station. Use Red Frog Freight to courier your loot to Jita. Time that you do not spend hauling your own stuff is time well spent. Plus, it is insured. Use the time you save to do something more fun or more lucrative.
Then you have a couple of options:
You can set a jump clone in Jita. Use this for buying and selling your stuff. You can set up a Jita alt. Use this for buying and selling your stuff.
Use courier contracts to Red Frog Freight to move your new stuff from Jita to your closest high sec station. Transport it from there to your staging system.
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. So, why do I post here?
I'm stubborn.
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Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1285
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Posted - 2015.08.24 09:15:51 -
[27] - Quote
A hint about Jita 4-4 undock space. It is huge, so start warping right away is not necessary (for safe redock), just wait 10s, then you are away from the crowd and muss less likely to get bumped when breaking invul. Though I have to admit, "fighting" against insta-lockers is a lot harder than avoiding the NPC Navy.
I'm my own NPC alt.
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Cherri Minoa
IronPig Sev3rance
88
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Posted - 2015.08.24 10:12:05 -
[28] - Quote
Tanuki Three wrote: I should clarify. I'm not running away simply because all I want to do is farm. I'm running because I'm literally the smallest fish in the pond. In many systems I dont' have safe spots set up. My ship is cheap and fitted with weak mods because I have neither the ISK or the skills to equip better, and I'm still learning the basics of how FW/nullsec/pvp work. This isn't some kind of cowardly desire to avoid combat. It's a calculated decision to avoid combat with other players until I think I have a decent chance of putting up a fight. )
You will always get people telling you how you should be playing the game, often in local and sometimes in colourful language. They will smacktalk you cos you don't solo / you blob / you use EWAR / you use stabs / etc. All they are trying to do is goad you into fighting the way it suits them.
Don't be drawn. In every encounter, you want to try as hard as possible to make sure that things play out to YOUR advanatge. And if that means running away, do it.
Knowing which fights to take and which fights to avoid is what separates a good combat pilot from a gutter brawler.
"If I had been censured every time I have run my ship, or fleets under my command, into great danger, I should have long ago been out of the Service" - Horatio Nelson
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Tsukino Stareine
Sock Robbers Inc. Low-Class
1340
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Posted - 2015.08.24 12:56:49 -
[29] - Quote
Tanuki Three wrote:Despite trying to use the techniques deacribed by you guys, my instant warp undock bookmark didn't work. I guess it's fairly common to get 'bumped' upon exiting Jita, which throws you out of alignment just enough to make your warp out take forever to activate. It only costs me a destroyer this time, but I could see how it might be expensive down the road.
How do you deal wirh this situation?.
If your bookmark isn't warping you the moment you press it: it's a bad bookmark.
tip: the further you make the bookmark, the more likely it will work (so if it's not perfectly aligned you might still get away with it) |
Cara Forelli
Green Skull LLC
1211
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Posted - 2015.08.24 13:57:11 -
[30] - Quote
Tanuki Three wrote:I understand THEY don't know that. All they're seeing is one more farmer kill slipping through their fingers. But gimme a couple weeks to skill up and to be able to afford throwing ships at the learning process, and I'm going to start setting ambushes for these guys. They'll get all the fights out of me they could want. ;) Scenario: I'm flying around and see an Incursus in a plex on dscan. I'm in an Atron so it may be rough but I want to give it a go. There are quite a few people in system so I'm not sure if it's an old or new player. I scout the rest of the system to make sure there isn't anything too threatening. I start thinking about my strategy. I should probably scram-kite to take advantage of my falloff bonus. Unless it's rails and then I better get in close. I load null for the former and make a mental note to check the weapon system when I warp in. Set my default "orbit" to 1000m in case he has rails and "keep at range" to 7500 in case he has blasters. Overheat afterburner in case I have trouble getting to desired range. Overheat my AAR and make sure it is set to auto-reload off. Overheat my scram so I can grab the tackle. Drop my dscan range to 1 AU to watch for incomming baddies.
I'm ready to go! Warp to the plex at 10 so I don't get stuck on the gate. Activate gate, heart is racing.......land inside the plex. He's at 20 km. Must be kite fit. Start burning toward him.....scram! web! guns!
Incursus warps off and docks up.
Rinse. Repeat.
This is why "pirates" get frustrated with farmers. It could be a decked out incursus with a veteran pilot in there waiting to give you a really good fight...or it could be someone's alt who is afk farming and doesn't care that they and their compatriots are littering the battlefield with apathy and wasting your time (and sec status). You will come to understand this frustration well when you are looking for fights yourself.
Try and disabuse yourself of the negative connotation of the word "pirate". People go to FW for fights. That's what it is for. There is nothing wrong with people hunting and killing you in low sec. It is expected and intended. "Pirate" simply means this particular individual is not participating in faction warfare.
All that said, there is a big difference between a vet player who makes a FW alt to afk farm while they fly blingy ships on their main and a newbro who really needs the money to participate in FW. EVE is all about picking your battles so don't let people pressure you into a fight you don't want. Do what you need to do and in due time you will be actively defending your plexes.
Just don't fall into the trap of thinking you need 'x' amount of SP or 'y' amount of ISK before you can PVP. A clever newbro can win a fight in a ship worth 1m isk with a little creativity. And if you have a few friends it's even easier. However, you can expect plenty of losses at the beginning. After all, you are still learning what all the different ships are and what they are capable of, which is something that takes lots of time and practice. So keep it cheap, but go out there and try it, because you can't learn without trying.
Adventures
New player with questions? Join my public channel in game: House Forelli
Titan's Lament
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