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subvert
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Posted - 2006.12.12 17:26:00 -
[31]
t2 lottery = broken system
most powerful items in the game, give the holder unlimited ISK and power, and they are done under this poorly designed lottery
damage is already done, nuff said
way to play EVE = sell GTCs for 200 billion ISK, setup 20 accounts for T2 lottery, buy T2 BPOs if you didnt get them, buy more t2 BPOs b/c you now have unlimited wallet. anything else is metagame. broken but damage is already done.
a random number decides the balance of power and economy, no longer players. and now those who bought out the random number decide it. 0% player interaction involved, no eve players helped shaped the universe in that way. the t2 lotto goes against everything EVE stands and single handedly ruins the idea of player control
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Blind Man
Kemono.
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Posted - 2006.12.12 18:23:00 -
[32]
very silly to sell a good t2 bpo
unlimited constant income > limited (although large) sum of isk
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Khyle
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.12.12 18:26:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Khyle on 12/12/2006 18:27:50 Having read some posts again(no, not yours ;) ), the problem is failing to grasp the mechanics of monopolies(i will not adress the lotteries are unfair issues, thats a different topic). So:
MONOPOLIES FOR DUMMIES
Lets assume i own a vagabond BPO and have a perfect monopoly, like many people claim some people have. I can produce 3 of these in ~5 days(timespan does not matter, the numbers are just to keep the example easy)
The demand, my possible custumers, look like this, in the region i sell the ships in:
Group A: Is willing to spend 300 Million+production cost for a vagabond and has a demand of 1 per 5 days Group B: Is willing to spend 200 Million+ and has a demand of 1 per 5 days Group C: Is willing to spend 100 Million+ and has a demand of 2 per 5 days Group D: Is willing to spend 80 Million+ and has a demand of 3 per 5 days
Now, what happens if i start to sell vagabonds for a price of 100 Million(plus production cost): I will sell all 3 and make a profit of 300 Million With a price of 200 Million: I will sell only 2, to group A and B, and Group C and D will whine on the forums, but my Profit = 400 Million With a price of 300 Million: I will sell only 1 but my Profit = 300 Million, and there is lots of whining
In this scenario i would make the same profit selling only 1 for 300 Million as selling all 3 i could produce for 100 Million each, and thats for a lot less work and components. My maximum profit is 400 Million isk, if i sell 2 every 5 days, and less than i could produce.
This is a characteristic thing for monopolies, that you normally need to sell less than you could, but for a higher price to make maximum profit, cause to sell all you produce you would have to lower the price, and not only of the excess, but of all sales. If the real HAC BPO owners sell all they can, it does not matter if they have a monopoly or not, the price would be the same in an open market
Now enter a lucky chap who won a new vagabond BPO If hes stubborn, he will produce himself and the monopoly is gone, the price will now be 80 million isk+production cost because of constant undercutting until both sell the full production volume. If they do not undercut, then they wont sell at all, and as they cant sell all 6 ships for 200 Million, they WILL start to undercut as they are competing for the customers. They could try to create a shared monopoly, but sooner i later i swear one will think he got the shaft, cause for a profitable monopoly they need to sell less than they can, and probably someone will be greedy and try to sell just one more, directly cutting into his partners sales.
What if the old owner buys the BPO for a trillion isk or whatever, what many posters assume would happen.
He now has production capacity of 6 ships. The options are now: Price : Sales : Profit in million isk 300: 1: 300 200: 2: 400 100: 4: 400 80: 6: 480
Thus his new maximum profit is reached if he sells all 6 a lot cheaper. Now many people will say: "but what if the he continues to sell for 200 million and hes not willing to lower the price." That would mean he spent a trillion isk for nothing, and thus with buying the BPO eliminates all his profits for months if not years to come.[/b] The public will of course not gain anything, but the apparently hated monopolist is probably not super rich anymore. He still makes a decent profit, albeit not a maximum one, and he lost a trillion isk.
Add to this that the price of the BPO will probably be determined quite a bit by the current profit expectation, which is usually much too high, meaning at the level of current prices. Even if he buys and produces it and sells at 80 Million isk he is making a huge loss just by the BPO entering the game.
P.S.: And no, the lucky chap with the trillion isk will not buy that many vagabonds to change the market demand significantly
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Mila Prestoc
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Posted - 2006.12.12 18:42:00 -
[34]
Actually if they undercut by that much resellers will just buy and sell at full price.
The production amount would have to be so much that people would be unwilling to pay the high price because they know there will be pleanty at a lower price. -------------------------
Originally by: "Lord Violent" EvE is slowly becoming a game for the stupid, catered to by devs as they lack ability to kill/survive anything.
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Lil Belle
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Posted - 2006.12.12 18:43:00 -
[35]
Alliances are people to, or did you forget that?
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Khyle
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.12.12 18:44:00 -
[36]
Edited by: Khyle on 12/12/2006 18:53:35
Originally by: Mila Prestoc Actually if they undercut by that much resellers will just buy and sell at full price.
The production amount would have to be so much that people would be unwilling to pay the high price because they know there will be pleanty at a lower price.
And those resellers wont be able to sell their ships and need to lower the price.
The bottom line is that you cant sell more ships at the same price, cause there are not enough customers*. And somebody is going to feel shafted cause hes starting to sit on a pile of ships.
* You can only do this if you stupidly sold too cheap before, at a price with more demand than supply, and you didnt react to that to make more proft.
No amount of reselling will change that, sorry, back to square one for you
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JeanPierre
Gallente Acheron Vanguard Armada The Shadow Ascension
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Posted - 2006.12.12 18:46:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Mila Prestoc Actually if they undercut by that much resellers will just buy and sell at full price.
The production amount would have to be so much that people would be unwilling to pay the high price because they know there will be pleanty at a lower price.
So advertise, especially if you can get your corp behind you. Get enough people trying to be the middleman, and eventually everybody's a middleman with nobody to sell to at hyperinflated prices. And as you said, volume is key, as would a bit of pre-market-release advertising "Hey folks, come to XYZ system in the ABC Region! We're selling T2 Bane Torpedos For Only X (where X = cost + a smaller-ish tacked on profit margin) isk each!" to pick a random set of numbers.
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Ever notice that people who spend money on beer, cigarettes, and lottery tickets are always complaining about being broke and not feeling well? |
Imhotep Khem
Total Mayhem. Maelstrom Alliance
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Posted - 2006.12.12 18:57:00 -
[38]
The fundamental problem is people do not purchase T2 BPOs for profit. You generally can't do stupid stuff like that in real life. You will go bankrupt and end up being forced to sell your assets. This does not happen in eve. ____ If your not dyin' your not tryin'. |
Kryss Darkdust
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Posted - 2006.12.12 18:58:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Phoenix Jones I do not know why people are cheering so much. Unless this lottery has an unlimited timeframe, then whatever items have been seeded will merely be bought off of the person who gets it.
Alliances are really the only groups who can afford to purchase a T2 BPO. In addition, alliances have people with Thousands upon Thousands of research points in hopes to get BPO's (so they have a greater chance now).
Those that they don't get, they'll merely purchase off the person for some odd hundreds of billions, making that person rich, but making everybody else suffer.
I would not cheer yet about the BPO reseeding, because if its a finite limit, then don't expect any significant price changes, while the 40 or so odd people who get the new BPO's sell them to the mega Corps for Isk.
I think your underestimating the value of T2 BPO's. For example there is absolutly no amount of money in the game that would get me to sell a T2 BPO. Once I got it, I'm keeping it. I'm certain a lot of people would do the same. 100 billion ISK is a limited amount of ISK, a T2 BPO pays forever. Are you are gamer? www.playhardliveeasy.blogspot.com |
Fenderson
Finite Horizon The Red Skull
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Posted - 2006.12.12 18:58:00 -
[40]
Another component that people keep overlooking is...er...components.
If alot more t2 ships start to be produced, demand for the t2 components produced by moon mining will go up, which means those prices go up and t2 stuff becomes more expensive to produce, making producers charge more.
CHICKS DIG DREADS (and i DONT mean capital ships) |
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Daos Leghki
Paxton Industries
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Posted - 2006.12.12 19:01:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Khyle Stuff on monopolies
This is a good description of monopolies. However, monopolies in the real world have the capability to expand their production. Using your example, let's say that you're capped at producing 1 every 5 days (due to build speed). This means that you're producing less than the efficient amount (that is, the Pareto efficient amount) and also less than your potential profit-maximizing amount. The deadweight loss is larger than it should be, and both consumers and producers are hurt.
On the other hand, Invention could fix this by allowing production to increase and to reduce or eliminate deadweight loss. Of course, the consumer surplus increases, but so does the producer surplus. That said, it makes sense that T2 BPO holders would oppose invention, since their individual surplus drops.
Repopulate Low-Sec Paxton Industries is Recruiting
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Khyle
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.12.12 19:03:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Fenderson Another component that people keep overlooking is...er...components.
If alot more t2 ships start to be produced, demand for the t2 components produced by moon mining will go up, which means those prices go up and t2 stuff becomes more expensive to produce, making producers charge more.
While you are correct hopefully the new regions will be seeded soon, and the component cost is only 10% of the cost of most HACs.
But with invention working(soonish or so, once data interfaces are in), some T2 items could become more expensive as components increase in price from heightened production of "big ticket" items like hacs or cap rechargers.
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Nicocat
Caldari New Age Solutions
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Posted - 2006.12.12 19:06:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Lil Belle Alliances are people to, or did you forget that?
Alliances are giant, faceless, money-grubbing machines and you know it =P
Anyway. I hope we get a useful BPO. I don't like the idea of selling it just to make a big chunk of change while giving someone a better monopoly over an item, but I also don't like the idea of T2 rocket BPOs. ----------------------------
Originally by: Splagada SEED ME DADDY
WTB: Friggin' portrait |
JeanPierre
Gallente Acheron Vanguard Armada The Shadow Ascension
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Posted - 2006.12.12 19:11:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Fenderson Another component that people keep overlooking is...er...components.
If alot more t2 ships start to be produced, demand for the t2 components produced by moon mining will go up, which means those prices go up and t2 stuff becomes more expensive to produce, making producers charge more.
Only applicable at the bottom end of the pricing curve. At the high end of the price curve it won't matter, assuming the supply of components doesn't dry up, but only raises to meet demand. Eventually the price will stabilize at the "highest component price to produce the lowest per unit price of a T2 item" for both component and item.
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Ever notice that people who spend money on beer, cigarettes, and lottery tickets are always complaining about being broke and not feeling well? |
Roshan longshot
Gallente Ordos Humanitas
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Posted - 2006.12.12 19:17:00 -
[45]
Well if by chance that snowball makes it through hell, I will probably sell any BPO that I get. I just dont see away to make the kind of isk I need except this.
Free-form Professions, ensure no limetations on professions. Be a trader, fighter, industialist, researcher, hunter pirate or mixture of them all.
[i]As read from the original box.
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baaaaal
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Posted - 2006.12.12 19:42:00 -
[46]
Quote: Another component that people keep overlooking is...er...components.
theres already to much supply of components go look into doing reactions for a profit lol just about every reaction is worth less than the materials to make then in jita
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Naki Uesugi
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Posted - 2006.12.12 19:46:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Noriath Also in real life you can do something against rich people, in Eve you can't, because you don't know who they are, and even if you did, not much you can do to harm the wallet of an alt in an NPC corp.
I like this guy.
Let zeh revolution BEGIN!
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Alora Venoda
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Posted - 2006.12.12 20:02:00 -
[48]
if you could not manage to mass produce the T2 BPO, instead of selling it, could you not COPY it instead? i am sure lots of people would be interested in buying the copies too.
of course, researching and copying takes time, just like manufacturing. but it is certainly a valid option.
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Khyle
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.12.12 20:08:00 -
[49]
Edited by: Khyle on 12/12/2006 20:08:37
Tech II Copying takes normally 2-4 times as long as production, so if you sell BPCs for a price that people could produce themselves for prices competable to buying the finished product you as BPO owner will earn much less.
BUT what i learned, for lower end ships(like support cruisers), you can sell BPCs for much more than the profit margin of production, as people seem to pay premium for the benefit of using their own resources and the mobility of a multi-run BPC compared to flying the ships to your base of operation.
So i actually earn more selling BPCs, but that really only applies to the lower end Tech 2 ships i guess.
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Deez Nuttzy
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Posted - 2006.12.12 20:08:00 -
[50]
the whole way the seed them out is *** in my opinion. i would like to get one but i know that will never happen. can CCP change it so the player has to do some sort of special story mission for example to do it. but sice it is a T2 BPO make it like 10 parts or something. those of us less fortunate in isk quantity can't get in the raffle so are more or less screwed. who in CCP is getting pockets paid in isk for this or dollars or pounds or euros. we know its not pesos but that is a different thread. and some people get 5 or more, what the hell is that?
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Viktor Fyretracker
Caldari Worms Corp
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Posted - 2006.12.12 20:12:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Imhotep Khem The fundamental problem is people do not purchase T2 BPOs for profit. You generally can't do stupid stuff like that in real life. You will go bankrupt and end up being forced to sell your assets. This does not happen in eve.
it happens many times IRL, a Patent in the US is much like having the sole BPO in EVE. if i say had a patent for some new lightbulb that wouldnt burn out for years of constant operation, put out 100watts of light and used not more then 5watts of power(basicly LED based), i go and get a nice patent, well odds are General Electric isnt going to like this very much so they will come to me and offer money for the said patent. even if they let me have a 1billion USD for it, it is cheaper for them because my R&D becomes their R&D basicly and they just need to warm up the factory.
what EVE needs is a form of Licensing system, IRL you can work out an agreement to give me a cut of the profits if you want to make something that i have patented. in EVE we have BPCs but they arent really close to a licensing system.
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Easy Target
Minmatar Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.12.12 20:32:00 -
[52]
I wouldnt sell a tech II BPO...
1 or 2 months training a noob alt for the relevant skills, few buy orders and you have AFK money making.
with the profit on tech II, if u buy stuff slightly more expensive to get it delivered to you you still make a fortune on it...
Eay Target -----------------------------------------------
No i'm not good... but i have never claimed to be -------------------- |
Gorlish
Magnificent Beavers Exquisite Malevolance
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Posted - 2006.12.12 20:57:00 -
[53]
Originally by: wystler Come on vagabond bpo, pappa needs a new pair of everything
From Finding Nemo: "Mine!" :)
-G
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subvert
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Posted - 2006.12.12 21:00:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Easy Target I wouldnt sell a tech II BPO...
1 or 2 months training a noob alt for the relevant skills, few buy orders and you have AFK money making.
with the profit on tech II, if u buy stuff slightly more expensive to get it delivered to you you still make a fortune on it...
yeah, free ISK printing press given out at random
what a great system right
you can fight 50 fleets of angels at once and not get something that good
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Nate D
Naughty Ambitious Temptatious Endeavours
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Posted - 2006.12.12 21:01:00 -
[55]
If I am lucky enough to receive a BPO... I surely won't be selling it to anyone.
-NÖ --- Voice Comms are Coming ...SoonÖ [Click] |
000Hunter000
Gallente The Lookers
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Posted - 2006.12.12 21:06:00 -
[56]
I am so not gonna sell if i do win one.
I have been looking forward to a chance to win a T2 bpo from the day i knew u could win one, so if i do win one i would rather cut of my manhood first then selling it.
No matter what it is i will build them and sell them against reasonable prizes. Resized tag... hope this pleases the tag ninjas from ccp :p
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Father Weebles
Wreckless Abandon The UnAssociated
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Posted - 2006.12.12 21:08:00 -
[57]
Originally by: D'onryu Shoqui Edited by: D''onryu Shoqui on 12/12/2006 16:27:29 in real life i think its 10% have 80% of the wealth.
there was some news article about it the other week.
atleast in real life its hard to have a monopoly
20% have 80% of the worlds wealth
close
"Welcome to EVE, where inflation is out of control." |
Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
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Posted - 2006.12.12 23:33:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Malthros Zenobia
Originally by: Tachy
Originally by: Noriath Also in real life you can do something against rich people, in Eve you can't, because you don't know who they are, and even if you did, not much you can do to harm the wallet of an alt in an NPC corp.
Buy item, pod seller repeatedly.
Yeah I know, you'll probably end up with podding the price driving resellers repeatedly, but that's okay in my book.
How do you pod an NPc corp alt that never undocks?
This is why people are looking forward to Walking in Stations. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-Douglas Adams, writing about EVE |
Danton Marcellus
Nebula Rasa Holdings
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Posted - 2006.12.12 23:41:00 -
[59]
No worries, we won't ever sell ours.
Ourselves Alone |
Krulla
Minmatar Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2006.12.12 23:46:00 -
[60]
Originally by: D'onryu Shoqui dont think i have ever known any other mmo where more than likely 5% of the population probably has more than 25% of the isk ingame
I have. It's called real life. Only there, 5% of the people have 80% of the money.
It's just the nature of a free market. No matter what, most of the money will find it's way into the hands of a small elite. How that happens is irrelevant.
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