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Tauren
Celestial Wander
0
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Posted - 2016.01.04 18:54:21 -
[1] - Quote
Hello ladies and gents, I've been thinking of something that could be a very big game changer but i think it could be to the good side. If this was already debated i apologize. So, what about if warp scramblers and disruptors would work like target jammers? And the ships would have a certain warp strength that can be countered with more modules of the same size or higher class modules that have more inherent power? What do you think about changing the warp point interdiction into class modules like weapons? It could look like this: Small disruptor/crambler could 1/1 interdict frigates and destroiers, 1/2 interdict cruiser class (so you need 2 modules or 2 ships with 1 module fitted) and 1/4 interdict battleships. Medium disruptor/scrambler could 1/1 interdict frigs/destro, 1/1 interdict cruiser class and 1/2 interdict battleships. Large disruptor/scrambler could 1/1 interdict all lower size classes and the same class.
Because, personally i do not think it is ok that a frigate can hold on a battleship with a small module. Or at least not with a single one. What do you think? |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2452
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Posted - 2016.01.04 18:56:41 -
[2] - Quote
I think you're wrong.
If you want your battleship to survive a single frigate, kill it or fit warp core stabs. |
Tauren
Celestial Wander
0
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Posted - 2016.01.04 19:01:11 -
[3] - Quote
So you see now mister ISD Decoy how this goes? |
Tauren
Celestial Wander
0
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Posted - 2016.01.04 19:07:22 -
[4] - Quote
As for you, Frostys Virpio, you clearly do not understand where this goes. Keep the negative to yourself, i am looking for pro and cons not advice from you. i play this game since 2003. |
Tauren
Celestial Wander
0
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Posted - 2016.01.04 19:59:18 -
[5] - Quote
As for you, Frostys Virpio, you clearly do not understand where this goes. Keep the negative to yourself, i am looking for pro and cons not advice from you. i play this game from 2003. |
Ralph King-Griffin
Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance
13410
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Posted - 2016.01.04 20:03:16 -
[6] - Quote
Tauren wrote: i play this game since 2003. and still don't understand how its balanced.
-1
Better the Devil you know.
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Tauren
Celestial Wander
0
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Posted - 2016.01.04 20:09:49 -
[7] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Tauren wrote: i play this game since 2003. and still don't understand how its balanced. -1 How is it balanced? Explain how. |
Ralph King-Griffin
Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance
13412
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Posted - 2016.01.04 20:13:31 -
[8] - Quote
Tauren wrote:Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Tauren wrote: i play this game since 2003. and still don't understand how its balanced. -1 How is it balanced? Explain how.
you are from 2003
if you dont understand by now then my explaining would be a waste of both our time
Better the Devil you know.
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Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2456
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Posted - 2016.01.04 20:20:29 -
[9] - Quote
Tauren wrote:As for you, Frostys Virpio, you clearly do not understand where this goes. Keep the negative to yourself, i am looking for pro and cons not advice from you. i play this game from 2003.
Have to give it to you, you are keeping a cool tone but the game is currently well balanced with large ship having vulnerability to smaller ships. It's built this way so small ship don't become obsolete once you skill higher in the skill tree. |
Tauren
Celestial Wander
0
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Posted - 2016.01.04 20:32:58 -
[10] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Tauren wrote:Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Tauren wrote: i play this game since 2003. and still don't understand how its balanced. -1 How is it balanced? Explain how. you are from 2003if you dont understand by now then my explaining would be a waste of both our time
Please just forget it, you are really wasting our time, indeed. |
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ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Snuffed Out
9375
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Posted - 2016.01.04 20:36:37 -
[11] - Quote
Tauren wrote:Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Tauren wrote: i play this game since 2003. and still don't understand how its balanced. -1 How is it balanced? Explain how. It is balanced because...
- bigger ships have more fitting options and space. This allows them to fit more varied and potent anti-frigate, anti-cruiser defenses. Yes, fitting these defenses may limit a battleship's effectiveness against ships of a similar size... that is the point. You are not supposed to be able to do both.
- bigger ships gain more effectiveness and power when in numbers. The same is not completely true for smaller ships.
- "bigger is not necessarily better." If bigger ships were straight out better in every way, there would be no reason for people to fly anything other than big ships. By keeping larger ships vulnerable to smaller ships you ensure that smaller ships have a role and remain viable into the future.
- it is good for player interaction too. If a larger ship requires support to defend itself against certain threats then you bring friends. This brings more people into conflict with one another.
How did you Veterans start?
ShahFluffers Blog: Musings, Ramblings, and Newbie Knowledge from a Bittervet
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Ralph King-Griffin
Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance
13413
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Posted - 2016.01.04 20:37:02 -
[12] - Quote
clearly
Better the Devil you know.
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Gadget Helmsdottir
Gadget's Workshop
94
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Posted - 2016.01.04 20:41:16 -
[13] - Quote
Beginning entry into PVP usually centers on newbies piloting teeny-tiny pointing frigs.
This is a Good Thing. It teaches the needed skills begins to remove the fear of being blown up, because face it, you're gonna die a lot, but at least the cost isn't so high.
If you need BS sized points to stop a BS, then that means that most likely you need a BS chassis to mount said points.
Fine, but who's gonna pilot the pointing BS? The newbie? Only if you're trying to teach bad tactics.
Seriously though, I don't really think that this is a really good idea.
Maybe, and this is a really theoretical maybe, a change in design to allow bigger numbers in point vs point defense might be feasible, such as the BS having bigger stabbs requiring multiple frigs to keep it in sub-space.
The problem with this is that it's a slippery slope. In fleet engagements this might be an interesting change. In small conflicts the bigger ship ALWAYS has the advantage just because it can mount the bigger defense.
Yeah, I'm not sold on this. It affects too many different play styles negatively just to make one style a bit more dynamic.
--Gadget
Work smarter, not harder. --Scrooge McDuck, an eminent old-Earth economist
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Tauren
Celestial Wander
0
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Posted - 2016.01.04 21:50:55 -
[14] - Quote
Gadget Helmsdottir wrote:Beginning entry into PVP usually centers on newbies piloting teeny-tiny pointing frigs.
This is a Good Thing. It teaches the needed skills and begins to remove the fear of being blown up, because face it, you're gonna die a lot, but at least the cost isn't so high.
If you need BS sized points to stop a BS, then that means that most likely you need a BS chassis to mount said points.
Fine, but who's gonna pilot the pointing BS? The newbie? Only if you're trying to teach bad tactics. The vet? Booooring!
Seriously though, I don't really think that this is a good idea.
Maybe, and this is a theoretical maybe, a change in design to allow bigger numbers in point vs point defense might be feasible, such as the BS having bigger stabs requiring multiple frigs to keep it in sub-space.
The problem with this is that it's a slippery slope. In fleet engagements this might be an interesting change. In small conflicts the bigger ship ALWAYS has the advantage just because it can mount the bigger defense.
Yeah, I'm not sold on this. It affects too many different play styles negatively just to make one style a bit more dynamic.
--Gadget
I tend to agree with most of the things you said, they have a certain role and involvement that is necessary. Still there are some things that need more attention. I do not say they should remove interdiction roles of the frigates but they should make a balance between warp scramblers/disrupters ewar modules and other modules that are equally dangerous. Like target jammers, target painters, etc. Those items work on percentage bonus or minus that have a coherence of which ships are involved and how many options they have. If i fly a scorpion i use one jammer to jam a frigate and 3 to jam a battleship. Is it a medium slot frigate worth the same as a medium slot battleship? Is this balanced?. I say it is not a fair deal that a single module fitted on a frigate can interdict a very large ship to escape. 3 or 4 frigates yes, they can stack the warp disruptors to forbid a 50 times larger ship to warp. There are specialized interdiction ships that you need some considerable time and skill to fly and they involve a high risk closing the enemy and the loss could be expensive. THAT is balanced. Even so, you guys consider it should not be done. How about Micro Jump Drives? Is it fair that a 15CPU/1MW module should 100% negate a 77cpu and 1375MW module? Balanced?
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Ralph King-Griffin
Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance
13414
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Posted - 2016.01.04 21:55:35 -
[15] - Quote
Tauren wrote: How about Micro Jump Drives? Is it fair that a 15CPU/1MW module should 100% negate a 77cpu and 1375MW module? Balanced?
yes because a warp scrambler is the only module you can fit on a frigate to keep a battle cruiser or battleship from leaving the field
Better the Devil you know.
=]|[=
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Tauren
Celestial Wander
0
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Posted - 2016.01.04 22:11:11 -
[16] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Tauren wrote: How about Micro Jump Drives? Is it fair that a 15CPU/1MW module should 100% negate a 77cpu and 1375MW module? Balanced?
yes because a warp scrambler is the only module you can fit on a frigate to keep a battle cruiser or battleship from leaving the field
Huston, we have a logic problem. |
SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
1449
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Posted - 2016.01.04 22:48:32 -
[17] - Quote
Tauren wrote: Even so, you guys consider it should not be done. How about Micro Jump Drives? Is it fair that a 15CPU/1MW module should 100% negate a 77cpu and 1375MW module? Balanced?
Fitting requirements have ****-all to do with what counters what. You basically just picked any old arbitrary criteria and decided that since one is bigger than the other, it should automatically "win".
You may as well have said, "The icon for an MJD is orange and the icon for a scram is blue. Blue is a a more energetic color on the EM specturm, so of course a blue module should 100% counter an orange module."
It would have just as much relevance as fitting requirements.
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
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Danika Princip
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4065
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Posted - 2016.01.04 23:50:42 -
[18] - Quote
So OP?
How many newbies in rifters should it take to tackle a carrier under your proposal? |
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
2155
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Posted - 2016.01.05 02:44:46 -
[19] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:So OP?
How many newbies in rifters should it take to tackle a carrier under your proposal?
All of them?
CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.
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Anize Oramara
The Arch Dashing Dashers
723
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Posted - 2016.01.05 02:53:46 -
[20] - Quote
Lets take one of the worst mechanics in Eve and apply it to warp scramblers.
Sounds legit.
A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.04
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Sigras
Conglomo
1105
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Posted - 2016.01.05 08:27:15 -
[21] - Quote
What role do you envision frigates having with this change?
need I remind you that two different types of frigates (Assault Frigates and Interceptors) are solely designed around tackling?
If frigates arent supposed to tackle well then what ARE they supposed to do well? And if the answer is nothing, then why should they even exist?
In this game bigger doesnt equal better, and that's the way it should be. |
Tauren
Celestial Wander
0
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Posted - 2016.01.05 11:03:22 -
[22] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:Danika Princip wrote:So OP?
How many newbies in rifters should it take to tackle a carrier under your proposal? All of them?
No, as i proposed a frigate should scramble a frigate, 2 frigates should scramble a cruiser and it will take 4 for a battleship or bigger ship. As i proposed, electronic warfare fitted on frigates it is powerful enough in a fleet fight with a lot of important bonuses. Also frigate pilots and interceptors, as i am one of them, are not obsolete in any way since the most warfare is frig v frig. I also proposed that the potential lack of this amazingly uber super duper ability a frigate has to be replaced by more powerful weaponry like cruise missiles as it used to be. Have you kids ever watched a damn SF? In any SF the small ships are dangerous because they have firepower. Not a stupid ability to hold on ANY damn ship in this game until his friends arrive. This is what's the problem, ppl in eve act like little worms that can't and won't fight unless they can blob. That's why you love frigate scramblers. They hold on to anything untill you get 50 ppl to take it down. Just please do not reply any more. I ll ask GM to close the thread. |
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4070
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Posted - 2016.01.05 11:40:36 -
[23] - Quote
Tauren wrote:the most warfare is frig v frig.
Except that it isn't, and you're outright lying to try and get frigates nerfed into uselessness for some weird reason you've never actually explained... |
Tauren
Celestial Wander
0
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Posted - 2016.01.05 12:22:12 -
[24] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:Tauren wrote:the most warfare is frig v frig.
Except that it isn't, and you're outright lying to try and get frigates nerfed into uselessness for some weird reason you've never actually explained...
The weird reason is that if you fly a battleship and you get scrambled by a frigate there is not much you can do. Just wait untill the little prick gets his 50 corp mates to take you down. Drones? Even seen a Dramiel eating drones? Tell me what do you do? There was a dumbass who wrote ealier "fit warp core stabs". Any other bright ideea? |
Gadget Helmsdottir
Gadget's Workshop
97
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Posted - 2016.01.05 13:07:47 -
[25] - Quote
Tauren wrote: Any other bright ideea?
Yes,
Real battleships had escorts for this very reason....
--Gadget
Work smarter, not harder. --Scrooge McDuck, an eminent old-Earth economist
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Iain Cariaba
2281
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Posted - 2016.01.05 13:10:23 -
[26] - Quote
Tauren wrote:Danika Princip wrote:Tauren wrote:the most warfare is frig v frig.
Except that it isn't, and you're outright lying to try and get frigates nerfed into uselessness for some weird reason you've never actually explained... The weird reason is that if you fly a battleship and you get scrambled by a frigate there is not much you can do. Just wait untill the little prick gets his 50 corp mates to take you down. Drones? Even seen a Dramiel eating drones? Tell me what do you do? There was a dumbass who wrote ealier "fit warp core stabs". Any other bright ideea? Have tou tried getting 50 corp mates of your own to take him down, or even one? You do understand the concept of escorts, right? The great thing about battleships is their tank allows them time to wait for their escorts to arrive on grid, meaning they don't have to sit right on top of you.
EvE is hard. It's harder if you're stupid.
I couldn't have said it better.
Hello, Mr Carebear. Would you like some cheese with that whine?
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Tauren
Celestial Wander
0
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Posted - 2016.01.05 13:21:31 -
[27] - Quote
Iain Cariaba wrote:Tauren wrote:Danika Princip wrote:Tauren wrote:the most warfare is frig v frig.
Except that it isn't, and you're outright lying to try and get frigates nerfed into uselessness for some weird reason you've never actually explained... The weird reason is that if you fly a battleship and you get scrambled by a frigate there is not much you can do. Just wait untill the little prick gets his 50 corp mates to take you down. Drones? Even seen a Dramiel eating drones? Tell me what do you do? There was a dumbass who wrote ealier "fit warp core stabs". Any other bright ideea? Have tou tried getting 50 corp mates of your own to take him down, or even one? You do understand the concept of escorts, right? The great thing about battleships is their tank allows them time to wait for their escorts to arrive on grid, meaning they don't have to sit right on top of you.
My friend. This is not about fleet fighting nor corporations. It is about a simple paradox. A module that is overpowered. It does not matter what you fly. I've been scrambled in any kind of ship in the same way. And maybe my corp mates were far away or i dont even have at all. This means that i am doomed because i have no chance to get away except jump bridge in a capital? Of course, as i previously said, if you encounter a fleet that's it, it wasn't your day. But encountering a t1 frigate that hold you up for 30 mins untill the blob comes it is not a matter of skill, intelligence, tactic or anything but an unbalanced module. |
Khan Wrenth
Ore Oppression Prevention and Salvation
361
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Posted - 2016.01.05 14:29:49 -
[28] - Quote
Tauren wrote:My friend. This is not about fleet fighting nor corporations. It is about a simple paradox. A module that is overpowered. It does not matter what you fly. I've been scrambled in any kind of ship in the same way. And maybe my corp mates were far away or i dont even have at all. This means that i am doomed because i have no chance to get away except jump bridge in a capital? Of course, as i previously said, if you encounter a fleet that's it, it wasn't your day. But encountering a t1 frigate that hold you up for 30 mins untill the blob comes it is not a matter of skill, intelligence, tactic or anything but an unbalanced module.
In EvE, most frustration is borne from the same root cause. "You used the wrong tool for the job". "Tools", as a concept in EvE, can cover everything from skilling up the right skills, using different modules or ships, boosters or drugs, intel channels, corp members, alliances, diplomacy, psychological warfare, assorted other specialty chat channels, tactics (including but not limited to hotdrops, wardecs, or suicide ganks), killboards, etc.
The game is delicately balanced around the interaction of all these hundreds or thousands of different things. That includes the module in question. The module isn't overpowered. It didn't get you killed. It is one of the very, very few modules people have at their disposal to put you at risk. Conversely, you have hundreds of modules, tactics, etc, to keep you safe. Nothing in this game, either the mechanics that put you at risk nor the mechanics that keep you safe, are 100% reliable. It's up to you, your skillful use of them, and willingness to diversify what you do, that keeps you safe. Just as much as the odus is on the hunters to use the tools at their disposal to put you at risk. Whomever masters the game mechanics better, wins.
If you suffered a major loss, the odus is on you to figure out why and how to avoid it. In this thread, already dozens of people have come forward with helpful advice. But you have to start your line of thinking with "what did I do wrong?", instead of, "what is wrong with this game?". It's much easier that way; you'll learn a lot more and make fewer enemies along the way.
Let's discuss overhauling the way we get intel in EvE.
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FT Diomedes
The Graduates
2161
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Posted - 2016.01.05 14:35:04 -
[29] - Quote
If you are in a battleship and get tackled and it takes your opponents 30 minutes to get there and in that time you have not found a way to defeat one T1 Frigate, escape from him, or bring a single friend of your own to come kill him or chase him away, then you must really, really suck and you deserve to lose your ship. And if you do lose your ship, at worst it was a few dollars worth of virtual property. Not a bad price to pay for having fun and learning a lesson about this game we love.
By the way, there are plenty of people who go out roaming with Battleships, they just tend to know how, when, and where to use them. As Dirty Harry says, "A mans got to know his limitations." Sun Tzu put it more fully: "If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle."
CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.
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FireFrenzy
SUPREME MATHEMATICS A Band Apart.
648
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Posted - 2016.01.05 17:02:04 -
[30] - Quote
Hell i used to roll in spidertanked armageddons, i had so much fun in them...
If you cannot clear tackle and are some place where that is a thing you might realisitically need to do. You didnt deserve your fancy spaceboat to begin with since you are clearly not well versed with rule number 1 |
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