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Meau
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Posted - 2007.03.29 18:47:00 -
[91]
Edited by: Meau on 29/03/2007 18:52:42
@Vladimir , in this thread Hunter(dev) states
Quote:
Also remember that you have the option of adding a Tech I item (of the correct type) to the job (adding a Tech II item does nothing). The better the metal-level of the item, the greater the chance of success is when using it.
Only tech II is explicitly ruled out, but i guess adding a Tech I item means an item under the Tech I group in the variants tab, excluding those under storyline, faction or "deadspace"(what officer loots seems to be called), which are different groups.
Anybody willing to sacrifice a few faction items for the good cause? ^^
About ship invention being borked, the success change is rather low(im currently around 25% with 1.3er decrpytors and 5/4/4). But supply of datacores and demand of ships are probably the main factors for the profit of inventors. This may sound strange, and does not work perfectly cause of decrpytors and need for copies, but the patch did not "fix" ship invention by increasing the chance, it increased datacore supply, which is a dominant factor(together with decryptor supply). If the chance would be twice as high, ship prices would just drop faster and lower, good for the rest of eve, no big profit change for the inventor.
@Lena That sounds worrying, and several people told me similar things(though not as drastic as your info), maybe its some bug, maybe some bug fix, a stealth nerf or maybe CCP dynamically change things as they see fit Oo.
For ships the success change does not seem to have changed(and i have 6+ jobs running simultanously, and global total number of jobs is huge compared to prepatch, probably ruling out 2. )
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Lena Carebear
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Posted - 2007.03.29 20:02:00 -
[92]
just finish 10 module jobs ...... 3 sucess :-( remember lvl4 and best named item.
That sucks.
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Sir Emi
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.03.29 20:35:00 -
[93]
I can confirm the success rate for modules has been cut in half in the 27 or 28 march downtime, acording to my success data...
Stealth nerf for sure.
Space Odyssey Maker...
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Lord Dynastron
Mystical Knights Legionnaire Services Ltd.
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Posted - 2007.03.29 21:04:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Sir Emi I can confirm the success rate for modules has been cut in half in the 27 or 28 march downtime, acording to my success data...
Stealth nerf for sure.
Yea,, the T2 markets in several categories are all crashing badly,,, a nerf was bound to happen. Not sure tho what will happen when teh datacores run out. Well,, not run out,, but the mass glut is gone.
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Brolly
Caldari Morphic field
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Posted - 2007.03.29 22:12:00 -
[95]
I've done 10 jobs using the same materials, they being: Invulnerability field me 20 BPC, installation guide, standard T2 invulnerability field for meta item.
9/10 of these have been a success with caldari encryption 4, hydromagnetic physics 3 and quantum physics 3
Intresting thing is, I have done 5 jobs with a BPC 5 run (4 succesful) and 5 with a 25 run (5 successful). Thing is, both have the same production runs, that being 4.
Got 4 days until I try again with a BPC 100 run, in which time I will have hydromagnetic physics up to 4.
Surely there should be a difference in runs that you get on a 5 and 25 run BPC.
I stink yo feer |
Bentus Kushani
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Posted - 2007.03.29 22:57:00 -
[96]
Originally by: Meau [ Only tech II is explicitly ruled out, but i guess adding a Tech I item means an item under the Tech I group in the variants tab, excluding those under storyline, faction or "deadspace"(what officer loots seems to be called), which are different groups.
Anybody willing to sacrifice a few faction items for the good cause? ^^
Faction items cannot be used. I tried it, it said that it was "too advanced to learn anything from" or something similar.
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Plutoinum
German Cyberdome Corp Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.03.30 06:59:00 -
[97]
The messages seem also a bit randomized.
Usually it says, my chances have been better, when I used an item with a higher meta-level.
But I had already different success messages, although everything was the same: Same meta-level of the item, same pe/me/run bpc, same skills.
___________ Muuuhhh !!! |
Hessi
The Forsakened Companions
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Posted - 2007.03.30 07:07:00 -
[98]
Edited by: Hessi on 30/03/2007 07:03:33
Originally by: Brolly I've done 10 jobs using the same materials, they being: Invulnerability field me 20 BPC, installation guide, standard T2 invulnerability field for meta item.
9/10 of these have been a success with caldari encryption 4, hydromagnetic physics 3 and quantum physics 3
Intresting thing is, I have done 5 jobs with a BPC 5 run (4 succesful) and 5 with a 25 run (5 successful). Thing is, both have the same production runs, that being 4.
Got 4 days until I try again with a BPC 100 run, in which time I will have hydromagnetic physics up to 4.
Surely there should be a difference in runs that you get on a 5 and 25 run BPC.
Your results pretty much confirm the formula for number of runs for modules:
Number of runs on BPC/Max runs * 10 + Decryptor Modifier
Number of runs on BPC/Max runs * 10 is rounded down, the complete formula is modified to result in at least a one run BPC even if you do not use a decryptor.
As the max run for Invul Fields should be 300, both 5/300*10 and 25/300*10 are smaller than 1, rounded down, so you end with the 4 runs that are added through the decryptor modifier. If you use a 100 run bpc, you should get a 7 run, 200 run bpc a 10 run , 300 run bpc a 14 run result.
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Plutoinum
German Cyberdome Corp Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.03.30 08:25:00 -
[99]
Edited by: Plutoinum on 30/03/2007 08:21:42 Done 6 invention jobs today and the message degraded with each job. The first 4 succeeded, the last two failed.
1) You have a good feeling this job is perfectly suited to someone of your talents. 2) Completing this job was fairly comfortable for you and didn't tax your talents too much. 3) You're happy with your success, for succeeding this job was far from certain. 4) You're happy with your success, for succeeding this job was far from certain. 5) Although you have a firm understanding of the basics of this job you were never close to a solution. 6) Although you have a firm understanding of the basics of this job you were never close to a solution.
Is there some sort of self-balancing mechanism that prevents that people invent too much ? That's seems really strange. ___________ Muuuhhh !!! |
Qual
Gallente Cornexant Research
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Posted - 2007.03.30 08:41:00 -
[100]
Originally by: Sir Emi I can confirm the success rate for modules has been cut in half in the 27 or 28 march downtime, acording to my success data...
Stealth nerf for sure.
With a sample base of 50+ jobs after patch, I can NOT conform this. Im getting the same succesrate now as before.
"The short version: Qual is right." -Papa Smurf |
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ShadowRat
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Posted - 2007.03.30 11:42:00 -
[101]
Another pices of puzzle:
What can be additiona modifier for succes rate? -used interface ship/data/tuner and it influence on 'base' chance :) (most resonable cus you use it) -equpment level in station/pos -standing to corp/fraction operating labortory -race for items types .. -weather in Iceland. :D
Any ideas?
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Rider Plague
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Posted - 2007.03.30 13:16:00 -
[102]
I looked at Probe BPC(O) and it has the invention tab so as BS's and other ships which do not have t2 version. What's gonna happen if i'll put these item in invention ? (can i even do that ?)
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Bermag
Point-Zero Ratel Alliance
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Posted - 2007.03.30 13:36:00 -
[103]
Have you verified that using a less than max run BPC don't effect the chance of success ?
If you have got a 1 run BPC with a 1 run input BPC then sure it looks like the formula for runs mentioned above seems right.
However maybe it has some impact and if you have less than max runs on your BPC it will lower the chance of success. The ration between actual run / max runs is one factor of the total probability of success.
Only one way to prove it. Do like 100 jobs with max run bpc and compare it with 100 runs of 1 run bpc.
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Kaven Kantrix
Two Brothers Mining Corp.
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Posted - 2007.03.30 18:22:00 -
[104]
So Qual, you seem to have perfectly nailed down exactly what the resulting BPC will be IF your job succeeds. Thats awesome.
Have you figured out the change of actual success/failure?
Many other people have put forth success/failure forumla's, but not you.
Also, the general consensus seems to be that the metalevel of the item you include drastically effects the chance of success. For items that have only metalevel 0 versions (such as ship), does that then mean that you shouldnt bother to include the item at all? In other words, is metalevel 0 item = no item at all chance to succeed?
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Meau
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Posted - 2007.03.30 22:09:00 -
[105]
Edited by: Meau on 30/03/2007 22:06:34
Originally by: Bermag Have you verified that using a less than max run BPC don't effect the chance of success ?
If you have got a 1 run BPC with a 1 run input BPC then sure it looks like the formula for runs mentioned above seems right.
However maybe it has some impact and if you have less than max runs on your BPC it will lower the chance of success. The ration between actual run / max runs is one factor of the total probability of success.
Only one way to prove it. Do like 100 jobs with max run bpc and compare it with 100 runs of 1 run bpc.
So far ive personally done 12 cruiser invention jobs with maxrun copies, 8 with 1 run copies, and 12 frigate jobs with 1 run copies.
All had very similar success changes, as far as statistics allow to say.
All data i got from other people shows no influence either.
The post of Hunter(Dev) explicitly mentions 4 things that modify the chance(in addition to base chance): - the 3 skills - decryptor - meta-item
I guess there are no hidden chance modifiers, and the most astonishing thing is that there seems to be no influence of ME and PE, which is far more interesting than no influence from copy number, station type, whatever, cause thats to be expected.
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Sir Emi
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.03.30 22:16:00 -
[106]
Edited by: Sir Emi on 30/03/2007 22:14:35
Originally by: Meau I guess there are no hidden chance modifiers, and the most astonishing thing is that there seems to be no influence of ME and PE, which is far more interesting than no influence from copy number, station type, whatever, cause thats to be expected.
It was done in a rush, they will probably add the ME / PE modifier later. They definetely had time to add a hidden modifier , try setting 10 jobs and getting them all at once, you'll see...
Space Odyssey Maker...
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Meau
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Posted - 2007.03.30 22:18:00 -
[107]
Ill see what? Oo
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Sir Emi
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.03.30 22:20:00 -
[108]
Invention jobs are stack nerfed
Space Odyssey Maker...
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Meau
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Posted - 2007.03.30 22:22:00 -
[109]
Edited by: Meau on 30/03/2007 22:18:08 Im always running 8 jobs in parallel Oo
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Sir Emi
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.03.30 22:50:00 -
[110]
On another note, I'm using 3 jobs with 3 different descryptors and 3 different modules.
This is what I did: module A, decryptor +9 runs, module B dec +2 runs, module C dec 1.1 change, +0 runs.
Then I come and complete the jobs, this is what I get: Completing them from reverse to first: - deliver module C, fail - deliver module B, success, gives me runs 12, decryptor +2 runs - deliver module A, success, gives me runs 10, decryptor is NOT +9 runs, but is the decryptor for module C, the success one.
Now I guess I know why the one that was supposed to be most successful failed, because it was using the decryptor with +9 runs, the one that was used in the first invention job.
I'm going to test some more too see if they mess up their encryptors again with two jobs, if it's true, it could also mess with the meta levels, you could set a low level invention job with the best meta for a module, then one for Hulks and use the module meta to increase the Hulks success ahahaha. Too bad I cant invent Hulks yet
Space Odyssey Maker...
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Dyeadmheet
Caldari Khanid Aerospace Group
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Posted - 2007.03.31 04:18:00 -
[111]
Edited by: Dyeadmheet on 31/03/2007 04:22:49 I believe that CCP is editing the per-blueprint invention success probability data in the database on individual items to respond to prices that are falling too far. (the "stealth nerf" that everyone is talking about.)
They can't just start deleting datacores, it's pretty difficult to predict what people are going to do with their RP, and we can't just have 1M isk cap charger II's and such all over the place. Also, they need to be able to modify the chance on a per-item basis. They can't just go around increasing the number of datacores needed for various items from day to day to respond to price drops.
This is the only explanation that makes sense to me for some of the job failure rates that I've seen lately. Interestingly enough, the success/fail messages that I see for jobs where only 15% are succeeding are about the same as the ones I see for jobs with a 50% success rate.
As much as I might see some of the logic in this, I think it's a pretty crappy way to tune the system. This is essentially equivalent to GOD sabotaging automobile factories because there are too many cheap cars on the market!
This would also explain why they don't want to provide people with the success probability formula. If they did, they'd have to expose these changing success modifiers or it wouldn't make much sense.
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Dyeadmheet
Caldari Khanid Aerospace Group
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Posted - 2007.03.31 04:31:00 -
[112]
Another thing: This price protection from God is probably being done in part to help protect T2 BPO owners. If this really is a big factor they should just buy the T2 BPOs back from their owners or something (with pricing based on their contract data) and put everyone on the same system.
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Marcus Starr
Chosen Path
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Posted - 2007.03.31 06:41:00 -
[113]
T2 BPO owners hardly need protection. They can keep undercutting inventors until enough give up for prices to go back up and stay at a steady level to meet the demands of consumers.
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Sir Emi
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.03.31 07:29:00 -
[114]
Edited by: Sir Emi on 31/03/2007 07:30:19
We are going to make the T2 BPO owners cry and beg us to stop undercutting them and then get our T2 fitted battleships out and have some real fun.
The T2 will cost 2 x manufacture price, and soon, very soon. Every miner / pirates and his alt out there is now training for invention ahahaha
Invention is so much cooler then having a T2 BPO
It's like... having them all
Space Odyssey Maker...
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Sufjan Stevens
Bauhaus Inc.
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Posted - 2007.03.31 12:23:00 -
[115]
Can you use a t2 item as the meta item? if so is it better/as good as the best t1 meta item?
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Qual
Gallente Cornexant Research
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Posted - 2007.03.31 13:03:00 -
[116]
Originally by: Kaven Kantrix So Qual, you seem to have perfectly nailed down exactly what the resulting BPC will be IF your job succeeds. Thats awesome.
Have you figured out the change of actual success/failure?
Many other people have put forth success/failure forumla's, but not you.
Thanks for the vote of onfidence, but actually my formula has a probelm... I working in it.
Meau was probably right about me missing to factor in the max possible runs of T2 version bpc into the formula.
Once that is done, i'll get to work on the main succes formula. That said, there seems to be a lot of good idea going around allready and my formula would most likely build on that work.
"The short version: Qual is right." -Papa Smurf |
ShadowRat
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Posted - 2007.03.31 18:54:00 -
[117]
My next few coins: ship_clas t1max_bpc t2mac_bpc frigates 30 10 crusers 15 10 b.crusers 10 10 b.ships 10 10? dreds 1 ? carrier 1 (low class) ? titan 1? (due a time) ?
Dominix BPC is nice example and give GOOD clue :) You dont put it into invention... because:
This job cannot result in an output blueprint. The reason might be that the metalevel of your input blueprint is too high or that there are no items in the same metagroup with a higher metalevel.
So :) metalevel is included in formula... for shure:)
Have nice day :)
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Vladimir Tinakin
Caldari Hadean Drive Yards Archaean Cooperative
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Posted - 2007.03.31 19:01:00 -
[118]
Actually Shadow, thats an entirely different check.
Several BPs have the "Invention" materials tab for future reference, but if there is no "Variations" tab with a T2 variant listed, you cannot do invention jobs on them. The message you got was the result of the "Does T2 version exist Yes/No?" check failing.
This was the reason Hulks and other T2 barges couldn't be invented for a while--Hulks are clearly T2 Covetors, but because the ships were not linked together on the meta table the covetor jobs would fail before they were finished being submitted. ----------------------------------------------- Adm Vladimir Tinakin CFO Hadean Drive Yards |
Plutoinum
German Cyberdome Corp Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.04.01 00:42:00 -
[119]
Edited by: Plutoinum on 01/04/2007 00:40:16
Originally by: Sufjan Stevens Can you use a t2 item as the meta item? if so is it better/as good as the best t1 meta item?
No, actually I had that idea, because then I'd use improved cloaking devices and wolfs to invent covert ops cloaking devices and jaguars (recycling the less valuable outcomes). tech-2 is meta-level 5. But doesn't work. ___________ Muuuhhh !!! |
Trinity Faetal
Gallente 0utbreak
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Posted - 2007.04.01 17:21:00 -
[120]
5x 60 run 1mn mwd bpc ran without any base item and/or datafiles
3 runs succes / 2run t2 bpc/ me -4/ pe -4. 2 failed
4x 60run 1mn mwd bpc ran with advanced theories/ no base item
2 runs succes / 3run t2 bpc/ me -6/ pe 1. 2 failed --
Enjoy The Silence |
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