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Caitlynn Askyra
Unity Ventures Apocalypse Now.
33
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Posted - 2017.01.15 12:39:59 -
[1] - Quote
Is there anything that can be done about players like this? It's incredibly annoying that a guy can just park in a system cloaked and stay there indefinitely without being found.
I get that null sec should have risk but this is such an anti-fun situation for everyone. It's not like I can go and chase him out of the system and I can't do anything in the system either really as you don't know if he will attack, when he will attack, or how much firepower he will attack with so it's not reasonable at all to defend against it.
I don't think it's fair that a cloaked frigate can basically stop any activity in the system for as long as it wants. It's overpowered and we need some way of detecting them if they camp for X amount of time so we can do something about it. |
Do Little
Virgin Plc Evictus.
741
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Posted - 2017.01.15 12:50:39 -
[2] - Quote
There is a sticky thread on this topic in the player features & ideas section of the forum so this thread will probably be locked. Short answer is - no, there is nothing you can do to make them go away. You can muster a PVP fleet, put a bait ship out and try to turn the tables if they take the bait but initiative - when and where to attack belongs to the aggressor. |
Salvos Rhoska
1943
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Posted - 2017.01.15 13:02:01 -
[3] - Quote
The cloaked frigate isnt stopping you from doing anything.
PS: CCP should remove Local from NS.
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Ralph King-Griffin
Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance
20122
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Posted - 2017.01.15 13:06:19 -
[4] - Quote
Paikis wrote:This thread comes up on almost a weekly basis. In fact, I'd be surprised if there wasn't a nerf cloaking thread in the first 2 pages on this forum section. Almost every single one of them goes like this:
1. OP posts a post with a new (lol) idea that always boils down to some variation of the following: - "There's a big meanie who is sitting in my system and not doing anything, but I don't know where he is and I can't ever just go next door. I can't find said meanie and even though I know that he's probably at work and poses no threat at all, I wont do anything in my system that I absolutely can't leave ever because he might not be at work and I might lose a ship. CCP please stop the meanie from being able to do nothing to me because he's probably at work"
2. Thread gets trolled because its been done literally to death. This horse has been beaten so hard and so often that it's little more than a memory of a memory of a red smear on the grass, and yet it STILL WONT DIE! In fact it's been done so many times that this particular horse is now undead; even if it does die, it will still be remembered and parodied.
3. Someone comes along and suggests that AFK cloakers can't hurt you, because they are, by their very definition, AFK. No one ever lost a ship to someone who ISN'T PLAYING THE GAME.
4. Someone else comes along and points out that while the cloaker might be AFK, he might not be, and so we have Schrodinger's Hot Dropper. The cyno pilot who might be AFK... but he might not be as well, and you will only know for sure when he decloaks, points and lights his candle. (Yes, I know this isn't how the cat works)
5. Someone else comes along and suggests that you use bait and setup a TARP. Or have a defence fleet on standby. Heaven forbid you have to actually fight to defend your space.
6. A further person comes along and suggests that the problem isn't cloaking AFK in your system that you can't possibly leave ever, but that you KNOW that the person is AFK in your system... and perhaps local should be removed because free 100% accurate intel is probably not the best thing in the game and if you didn't know that the big meanie was in your system, you wouldn't be worried about leaving the undock/POS.
7. Then another person pokes their head in and complains that local is 100% NEEDED because D-Scan and probing are such bad mechanics, and IF YOU TAKE MY LOCAL AWAY IM QUITTING FOREVER AND NO YOU CAN'T HAVE MY STUFF!
8. Someone asks if they can have 7's stuff.
We end up with another thread which goes on for pages and pages between complains about local, defence fleets, inability to just go next door, people who aren't playing the game but are playing the meta, lots of bickering and in the end nothing gets solved. CCP wont remove cloaking because it would mess with waaay too many things and it creates content (which is a good thing) by removing content (which is a bad thing) but they can't really think of any way to do it without a complete overhaul of the local and scanning systems.
Now that I've had this entire thread's conversation, can we just let it die? Please?
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Caitlynn Askyra
Unity Ventures Apocalypse Now.
34
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Posted - 2017.01.15 13:13:37 -
[5] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:The cloaked frigate isnt stopping you from doing anything.
PS: CCP should remove Local from NS.
Of course not technically but lets be real. I'm not going to do anything in that system with a hotdropper capable of dropping titan class ships if needs be. It takes zero effort to sit in a system all day and go to work. The best I can do is guess he is afk and go into another system.
Nobody is having fun and the whole situation is completely non-interactive, that's the problem I have with it... |
Ralph King-Griffin
Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance
20122
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Posted - 2017.01.15 13:14:54 -
[6] - Quote
one of these days im going to post an "afk cloaky" thread and blow all yer minds
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Caitlynn Askyra
Unity Ventures Apocalypse Now.
34
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Posted - 2017.01.15 13:16:35 -
[7] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:one of these days im going to post an "afk cloaky" thread and blow all yer minds
What have I said that you disagree with?...and what is the reason for that disagreement? Rather than just posting non information, I'd like to hear a counter argument from you. |
Caitlynn Askyra
Unity Ventures Apocalypse Now.
34
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Posted - 2017.01.15 13:25:11 -
[8] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:one of these days im going to post an "afk cloaky" thread and blow all yer minds
I'll also add, if these types of threads are so abundant, then it's pretty indicative that nobody likes this particular game mechanic, so why is it in the game? I'm sure you can 'blow everyone's mind' with the reason why you think it's great for the game. |
Salvos Rhoska
1943
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Posted - 2017.01.15 13:29:34 -
[9] - Quote
Caitlynn Askyra wrote:Nobody is having fun and the whole situation is completely non-interactive, that's the problem I have with it...
Its interactive. Their presence is having an impact on you. And you on them, or they would not remain cloaked. As to it being fun, its fun for them, or why would they be there. Its fun for you too, because it introduces risk where you otherwise have none.
NS is already ridiculously, ludicrously, brokenly safe, especially deep behind alliance lines. cough local cough.
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Sharisa Alar
Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance
1
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Posted - 2017.01.15 13:32:02 -
[10] - Quote
So far it appears you've complained about a person in your system being an annoyance by sitting cloaked and causing you to be afraid to undock. What do YOU propose to change in-game to counter this? |
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Salvos Rhoska
1943
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Posted - 2017.01.15 13:33:38 -
[11] - Quote
OP, what exactly is the single cloaked ship preventing you from doing?
Flying ridiculously bling ships and farming isk with no risk all day? Flying enormous mining fleets on multiple accounts and getting fat with no risk?
What exactly is it that you are doing, that a single cloaked ship prevents you from doing?
PS: Remove Local from NS.
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Neuntausend
Rens Nursing Home
1350
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Posted - 2017.01.15 13:35:50 -
[12] - Quote
Caitlynn Askyra wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:The cloaked frigate isnt stopping you from doing anything.
PS: CCP should remove Local from NS. Of course not technically but lets be real. I'm not going to do anything in that system with a hotdropper capable of dropping titan class ships if needs be. It takes zero effort to sit in a system all day and go to work. The best I can do is guess he is afk and go into another system. Nobody is having fun and the whole situation is completely non-interactive, that's the problem I have with it... Then let's be real: It's your choice alone to stay docked because of a frigate that you can't see and that can't do anything to you for as long as it remains invisible.
As soon as the cloaky frigate does something that could be dangerous to you or anyone else in the system, it will not be cloaked anymore, and you will be able to find and shoot it.
It does indeed take zero effort to sit in system all day doing nothing, but the downside to this is, that you sit in system all day doing nothing. And if you sit in system all day doing nothing, you won't kill anything either. If you want to kill something, you need to do something. As soon as you start doing something, an amount of effort greater than zero will be required. |
Akane Togenada
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
20
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Posted - 2017.01.15 13:39:47 -
[13] - Quote
Caitlynn Askyra wrote:I'll also add, if these types of threads are so abundant, then it's pretty indicative that nobody likes this particular game mechanic, so why is it in the game? I'm sure you can 'blow everyone's mind' with the reason why you think it's great for the game.
There are alot of threads complaining about all sorts of mechanics and in my humble opinion 9/10 threads are of 'cloaked whine' variety. An example is that there's dozens of threads demanding MOAR stuff for Alphas which would be an awful idea.
I'd say that juding the validity of a complain purely from the volume of complaints seems a bit weird and would quickly lead to a bad situation if CCP decided to go further down that route.
Finally I believe that there should be no Local in Null by default and then there could be some sort of installation soverign owners could build and maintain that would give them a Local with the option to grant friends and allies shared intelligence. |
Caitlynn Askyra
Unity Ventures Apocalypse Now.
34
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Posted - 2017.01.15 13:45:57 -
[14] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:OP, what exactly is the single cloaked ship preventing you from doing?
Flying ridiculously bling ships and farming isk with no risk all day? Flying enormous mining fleets on multiple accounts and getting fat with no risk?
What exactly is it that you are doing, that a single cloaked ship prevents you from doing?
PS: Remove Local from NS.
You are completely missing the point, the situation is non-interactive. Instead of asking me how it affects me, why don't you tell me what it achieves by being in the game. I bet you can't think of a single reason. |
Caitlynn Askyra
Unity Ventures Apocalypse Now.
34
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Posted - 2017.01.15 13:48:14 -
[15] - Quote
Neuntausend wrote:Caitlynn Askyra wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:The cloaked frigate isnt stopping you from doing anything.
PS: CCP should remove Local from NS. Of course not technically but lets be real. I'm not going to do anything in that system with a hotdropper capable of dropping titan class ships if needs be. It takes zero effort to sit in a system all day and go to work. The best I can do is guess he is afk and go into another system. Nobody is having fun and the whole situation is completely non-interactive, that's the problem I have with it... Then let's be real: It's your choice alone to stay docked because of a frigate that you can't see and that can't do anything to you for as long as it remains invisible. As soon as the cloaky frigate does something that could be dangerous to you or anyone else in the system, it will not be cloaked anymore, and you will be able to find and shoot it. It does indeed take zero effort to sit in system all day doing nothing, but the downside to this is, that you sit in system all day doing nothing. And if you sit in system all day doing nothing, you won't kill anything either. If you want to kill something, you need to do something. As soon as you start doing something, an amount of effort greater than zero will be required.
That's my point. Yes you can't do anything while afk, but you still have an effect while being afk. You shouldn't be affecting other people when you aren't playing the game. |
Salvos Rhoska
1943
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Posted - 2017.01.15 13:48:17 -
[16] - Quote
Akane Togenada wrote:Finally I believe that there should be no Local in Null by default and then there could be some sort of installation soverign owners could build and maintain that would give them a Local with the option to grant friends and allies shared intelligence.
Yes to the first part, no to the second.
Most Sov owners are so ridiculously space rich that its unfeasible to set a price for such a service high enough without it being unfair to smaller Sov holders.
There is also the issue of NPC NS, though I suppose that could retain Local, to further differentiate it from player owned space.
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Caitlynn Askyra
Unity Ventures Apocalypse Now.
34
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Posted - 2017.01.15 13:50:16 -
[17] - Quote
Akane Togenada wrote:Caitlynn Askyra wrote:I'll also add, if these types of threads are so abundant, then it's pretty indicative that nobody likes this particular game mechanic, so why is it in the game? I'm sure you can 'blow everyone's mind' with the reason why you think it's great for the game. There are alot of threads complaining about all sorts of mechanics and in my humble opinion 9/10 threads are of 'cloaked whine' variety. An example is that there's dozens of threads demanding MOAR stuff for Alphas which would be an awful idea. I'd say that juding the validity of a complain purely from the volume of complaints seems a bit weird and would quickly lead to a bad situation if CCP decided to go further down that route. Finally I believe that there should be no Local in Null by default and then there could be some sort of installation soverign owners could build and maintain that would give them a Local with the option to grant friends and allies shared intelligence.
That's fine but the problem goes deeper than just crying about cloakers. It's about having an effect on players when you are not playing, which shouldn't happen.
If you want to camp a system for 3 days, then you should be at your keyboard while doing it. Like you have to be at your keyboard to do anything else in this game. (don't bring up trading or manufacturing, they are inherently passive aspects of the game).
Why shouldn't I be allowed to go and kill someone afk in their ship in space? |
Salvos Rhoska
1944
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Posted - 2017.01.15 13:56:46 -
[18] - Quote
Caitlynn Askyra wrote:
You are completely missing the point, the situation is non-interactive. Instead of asking me how it affects me, why don't you tell me what it achieves by being in the game. I bet you can't think of a single reason.
It is interactive.
Both of you are aware of each others presence in the system, and are thus affecting and influencing each other reciprocally.
Whether they are afk, or you are ship-spinning in station, is arbitrary.
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Akane Togenada
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
20
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Posted - 2017.01.15 13:57:58 -
[19] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Akane Togenada wrote:Finally I believe that there should be no Local in Null by default and then there could be some sort of installation soverign owners could build and maintain that would give them a Local with the option to grant friends and allies shared intelligence. Yes to the first part, no to the second. Most Sov owners are so ridiculously space rich that its unfeasible to set a price for such a service high enough without it being unfair to smaller Sov holders. There is also the issue of NPC NS, though I suppose that could retain Local, to further differentiate it from player owned space.
Never thought of it that way. Just imagined it would be another reason to plant a spy in the enemy alliance and thus get the Local intel without them knowing about it.
No Local in all Null it is then.
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Admiral Sarah Solette
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
21
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Posted - 2017.01.15 13:58:21 -
[20] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:OP, what exactly is the single cloaked ship preventing you from doing?
Flying ridiculously bling ships and farming isk with no risk all day? Flying enormous mining fleets on multiple accounts and getting fat with no risk?
What exactly is it that you are doing, that a single cloaked ship prevents you from doing?
PS: Remove Local from NS. In a situation where there's a cloaky camper, the only player with absolutely 0 risk is the cloaky camper. Carebear to the max. They are literally unkillable. |
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Salvos Rhoska
1944
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Posted - 2017.01.15 14:02:20 -
[21] - Quote
Caitlynn Askyra wrote:
That's fine but the problem goes deeper than just crying about cloakers. It's about having an effect on players when you are not playing, which shouldn't happen.
If you want to camp a system for 3 days, then you should be at your keyboard while doing it. Like you have to be at your keyboard to do anything else in this game. (don't bring up trading or manufacturing, they are inherently passive aspects of the game).
Why shouldn't I be allowed to go and kill someone afk in their ship in space?
1) That effect is a result of Local. Nothing else. It creates a crutch whereby you now complain about a potentially afk player causing you problems.
1a) Its unusual to western paradigm and philosophy, but there exists a concept of "no-space", which defines the qualities of something not only by those it has or exhibits internally, but also by its exemption and/or influence on everything surrounding it. This is the understanding that something is not simply what it is, but also that which it is not. It occupies a unique space, at that time, in its particular form, which not only defines itself, but that of everything else around it. Like a missing piece in an otherwise completed jigsaw puzzle or alternatively the only piece of the jigsaw you have. The relationship of quality is thus contiguous, both shaped by its surroundings, and a unique part of them itself.
2) Inorder to camp a system for 3 days, you must login 3 times, due to downtime.
3) Being at your keyboard is not a requirement in this game.
4) If he is afk in a cloaked frigate, and you are afk in station, whats the difference?
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Caitlynn Askyra
Unity Ventures Apocalypse Now.
35
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Posted - 2017.01.15 14:09:49 -
[22] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Caitlynn Askyra wrote:
You are completely missing the point, the situation is non-interactive. Instead of asking me how it affects me, why don't you tell me what it achieves by being in the game. I bet you can't think of a single reason.
It is interactive. Both of you are aware of each others presence in the system, and are thus affecting and influencing each other reciprocally. Whether they are afk, or you are ship-spinning in station, is arbitrary.
It's not interactive at all. Let me try to explain it to you this way.
Everyone here knows it would be stupid to treat a cloaked hotdropper as afk even if it has been sat in the system for a week. The cloaked player doesn't have to do anything, he could be surfing in Australia for the week. Still it would be stupid to ever treat him as afk.
This means he is having an influence without playing the game at all for that period. Being logged in is not playing the game.
Now you keep mentioning me being sat in the station not doing anything, that's not the case, I go to the system next door and do whatever so your point is not relevant to my argument.
My argument is simply that the guy can force 20 to 30 people out of a system without being at the keyboard. |
Salvos Rhoska
1945
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Posted - 2017.01.15 14:17:09 -
[23] - Quote
Caitlynn Askyra wrote:
It's not interactive at all. Let me try to explain it to you this way.
My argument is simply that the guy can force 20 to 30 people out of a system without being at the keyboard.
1) Is his behavior affecting yours? If yes, that is interaction.
2) If 1 cloaked frigate can force 20-30 people out of a system simply by being there, the problem is not in the cloaked frigate player.
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Caitlynn Askyra
Unity Ventures Apocalypse Now.
35
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Posted - 2017.01.15 14:21:37 -
[24] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Caitlynn Askyra wrote:
That's fine but the problem goes deeper than just crying about cloakers. It's about having an effect on players when you are not playing, which shouldn't happen.
If you want to camp a system for 3 days, then you should be at your keyboard while doing it. Like you have to be at your keyboard to do anything else in this game. (don't bring up trading or manufacturing, they are inherently passive aspects of the game).
Why shouldn't I be allowed to go and kill someone afk in their ship in space?
1) That effect is a result of Local. Nothing else. It creates a crutch whereby you now complain about a potentially afk player causing you problems. 1a) Its unusual to western paradigm and philosophy, but there exists a concept of "no-space", which defines the qualities of something not only by those it has or exhibits internally, but also by its exemption and/or influence on everything surrounding it. This is the understanding that something is not simply what it is, but also that which it is not. It occupies a unique space, at that time, in its particular form, which not only defines itself, but that of everything else around it. Like a missing piece in an otherwise completed jigsaw puzzle or alternatively the only piece of the jigsaw you have. The relationship of quality is thus contiguous, both shaped by its surroundings, and a unique part of them itself. 2) Inorder to camp a system for 3 days, you must login 3 times, due to downtime. 3) Being at your keyboard is not a requirement in this game. 4) If he is afk in a cloaked frigate, and you are afk in station, whats the difference?
1. Cloaked hotdroppers have enough of the cards in their hand as it is. Afking for days on end is simply overpowered and you haven't yet come close to justifying it.
1.a) I'm not going to get into philosophical discussions simply on the basis that it derails the thread.
2. Logging in once a day is not interaction with players.
3. Again, if you are afk in space, why should you be completely immune to being killed? I don't think you should.
4. Again that's completely irellevant to my argument and that's not even what I do anyway so please stop assuming this!
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Caitlynn Askyra
Unity Ventures Apocalypse Now.
35
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Posted - 2017.01.15 14:27:06 -
[25] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Caitlynn Askyra wrote:
It's not interactive at all. Let me try to explain it to you this way.
My argument is simply that the guy can force 20 to 30 people out of a system without being at the keyboard.
1) Is his behavior affecting yours? If yes, that is interaction. 2) If 1 cloaked frigate can force 20-30 people out of a system simply by being there, the problem is not in the cloaked frigate player.
1. Yes exactly, interaction while he is asleep or at work and not even playing, which I am saying is unfair. Don't post if you are not going to read anything I write.
2. Yes it is exactly the problem with the cloaked player. You know the presence of a hotdropper has this effect so stop pretending it has no effect just to disagree with me. The hotdropper has been known to drop titans and I can prove it, so don't tell me it's possible to build a defense fleet, because it ISN'T. I have no chance of removing him on his terms, and currently there is no way of catching him off guard. |
Salvos Rhoska
1945
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Posted - 2017.01.15 14:28:56 -
[26] - Quote
Caitlynn Askyra wrote: The cloaked player doesn't have to do anything, he could be surfing in Australia for the week. Still it would be stupid to ever treat him as afk.
This means he is having an influence without playing the game at all for that period. Being logged in is not playing the game.
Now you keep mentioning me being sat in the station not doing anything, that's not the case, I go to the system next door and do whatever so your point is not relevant to my argument.
1) An afk player doesnt need to do anything, but is also no threat to you. If he is afk, and causes you to go to station and afk, then its +1/-1.
2) He needs to login everyday after downtime.
3) So you go to another system. Problem solved.
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Kiddoomer
The Red Sequence
138
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Posted - 2017.01.15 14:29:21 -
[27] - Quote
Me thinks you should try wormhole space to get the hang of this constant "danger that could be there but not really there".
In the name of Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen :
GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'.
Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥
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Sharisa Alar
Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance
1
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Posted - 2017.01.15 14:29:37 -
[28] - Quote
Caitlynn Askyra wrote:(don't bring up trading or manufacturing, they are inherently passive aspects of the game).
Don't bring up AFK-cloaky camping, it's inherently a passive aspect of the game. It becomes active the moment cloaky de-cloaks, so if you don't like this aspect you have choices:
- move system
- bait the cloaky
- go about your business (cloaky might never show up)
- have corp buddies help you out with intel while you're doing your business
- do stuff together with corpies to minimize your fear.
- leave null
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AFK Cloaker
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
145
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Posted - 2017.01.15 14:31:27 -
[29] - Quote
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Caitlynn Askyra
Unity Ventures Apocalypse Now.
35
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Posted - 2017.01.15 14:31:39 -
[30] - Quote
Sharisa Alar wrote:Caitlynn Askyra wrote:(don't bring up trading or manufacturing, they are inherently passive aspects of the game). Don't bring up AFK-cloaky camping, it's inherently a passive aspect of the game. It becomes active the moment cloaky de-cloaks, so if you don't like this aspect you have choices:
- move system
- bait the cloaky
- go about your business (cloaky might never show up)
- have corp buddies help you out with intel while you're doing your business
- do stuff together with corpies to minimize your fear.
- leave null
Trading an manufacturing doesn't disrupt others players so it's not the same thing at all. Read my posts, clearly you haven't. |
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