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Collin Enderasom
Suspicious Activity Stranger Danger.
0
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Posted - 2017.03.12 16:20:44 -
[1] - Quote
Hello everyone,
as our alliance currently is wardecked, we were discussing how hs wardecks could be more interesting. What we agreed on for the most part was, that for once we dislike the ability of neutral logi and(here is where the idea comes into place) the fact that usually don't have a way to seize strategic positions off of the big wardecking alliances. So here's the idea for how to change this: With the introductions of citadels we players got a great way of setting up our own little empires even in hs(in some way at least) and my suggestion would be to introduce a module for citadels which allows you to wage war against other alliances/corps. There would still be a lot of things to figer out balancing wise to this but I think it's a cool idea one of my corp mates came up with and I'd like to hear some opinions on it.
Thx for reading :) |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
47286
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Posted - 2017.03.12 16:27:06 -
[2] - Quote
Been suggested several times before.@
Some people like the idea, others don't and if this thread gets much discussion, the arguments for and against will probably appear all over again.
First question, why?
Second question, why are you trying to eliminate small Corps/solo players from being able to wage war against their legitimate enemies? |
Ralph King-Griffin
Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance
20592
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Posted - 2017.03.12 17:00:34 -
[3] - Quote
Yeah I agree with you , neutral logi feels like bullshit, even when you know it's there you can't do anything about it until you have committed.
We (the merc community, and devil's in particular) are trying to get something done about this. Check out toxic yaken's can candidacy thread, he's probably going to be the best lad for getting wars and empire conflict in general into a better place (read: unfuck crime watch)
Murderers of Negotiable Motivations
Lords.Of.Midnight currently recruiting
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Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
6029
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Posted - 2017.03.12 18:48:41 -
[4] - Quote
You mean like "make high-sec great again"?
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
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Ralph King-Griffin
Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance
20597
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Posted - 2017.03.12 19:16:41 -
[5] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:You mean like "make high-sec great again"? Bingo, given the associate intellect the slogan is connected to it's a) counter productive as it makes you seem like befuckered edjit and b) counter productive as it reminds everyone playing internet spaceships to escape reality that there's a befuckered edjit in a specifically coloured house.
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Lords.Of.Midnight currently recruiting
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Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
3834
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Posted - 2017.03.13 00:01:46 -
[6] - Quote
I'm for structure based decs. Check the link in my sig.
Ralph knows his stuff as well. One thing I'll add though, ccp have made it pretty hard to conduct an effective war. The biggest hope left is that observatory arrays give players the tools to hunt other players. And if they do, then defenders can shoot those tools and take them away.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
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Ralph King-Griffin
Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance
20601
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Posted - 2017.03.13 00:26:49 -
[7] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:The biggest hope left is that observatory arrays give players the tools to hunt other players. And if they do, then defenders can shoot those tools and take them away. this i is what im hoping also.
im against the ability to conduct or continue a war being tied to a structure, but i can absolutely get behind the ability to do so effectively being tied there.
if people want vulnerable assets sitting in space they better be damn well worth having
Murderers of Negotiable Motivations
Lords.Of.Midnight currently recruiting
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
47287
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Posted - 2017.03.13 04:52:26 -
[8] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Vimsy should be running, I wish this happened.
On the wardec end, I think a better approach than proposing a structure for an attacker, is to make being in a Corp worth more.
That is, proposing a structure for attackers is a view that if attackers have something to attack, defenders will attack it. But that's only going to be true for defenders that are already willing to fight.
It isn't going to encourage many in highsec because from a "what's in it for me" perspective, there is still not much reason to fight. It's no better than just dropping Corp, staying docked or not logging in for a week.
So wardec Corps will get bigger and will attacker much smaller Corps that are the ones who already whine; and the whining will just get worse.
However, if being in a Corp provided more benefit to its members, then there might be reasons to defend.
I don't know how to express this properly, but maybe it's via standings or something similar, but being in a Corp should offer more than just lower tax and an ability to own structures. If a Corp has good standings with an NPC Corp, that NPC Corp should offer something similar to an IHub, or something else that increases the ability of that Corp to improve it's income. Then don't have wardeccers declare against the player Corp, but against the NPC Corps and all Corps with standings are 'enlisted' to defend. Those that defend increase their standings and get more benefit. Those that don't, lose standing.
That's a really crap outline and really abusable in the way it is written there, but I just think incentivising with benefits is better than incentivising with the ability to go hit someone else, because some people in the game are reluctant to hit others, at least unless they can see a real benefit for them, even if they lose a fight. |
Khan Wrenth
Ore Oppression Prevention and Salvation
759
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Posted - 2017.03.13 18:38:15 -
[9] - Quote
Hey Ralph - I had a quick idea I wanted to bounce off of you. It's relevant to the topic but not worth it's own thread, but here goes...
What if level 4 locator agents gave the location and a quick "online: yes/no" for every member of a corp? Because I don't know if, due to coding issues, we can ever get locator agents to cycle faster, so if we're stuck with a long wait for a result, we should make it worth it.
Let's discuss overhauling the way we get intel in EvE.
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Vic Jefferson
Knights of Poitot Rote Kapelle
1203
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Posted - 2017.03.13 21:28:52 -
[10] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Vic thinks everyone should just move to nullsec ,
These nullsec ratters are pretty good! You should try some!
Nom nom nom....
No really, if any ONE of the following changes happened: No use of Neutral Logi. Cynos Allowed in HS (no capitals though). Micro-Jump fields allowed.
I'd say all wars should be free of ISK charge, and there would be zero things wrong with them.
I'd have more sympathy on the intel issue, but theoretically, if you are willing to declare WAR, you should have a fair idea where and when the corporation operates.
Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?
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Ralph King-Griffin
Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance
20612
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Posted - 2017.03.13 21:57:29 -
[11] - Quote
Vic Jefferson wrote: I'd have more sympathy on the intel issue, but theoretically, if you are willing to declare WAR, you should have a fair idea where and when the corporation operates.
Vic, You and I have discussed this before, the tools you're used to using don't work in highsec because they're drowned in neutral static. To track anyone who doesn't leave a kill board footprint your only option is eyes on.
come to highsec, bring like three sets of neutral eyes, Find a potential candidate, track them for a week, Dec them, Watch what happens.
Had we the ability to filter the map stats to some arbitrarily limitedGÇï balance point as a function of war (to be available for both parties) then yeah, I'd agree with you but dotlan and the ingame maps are utterly fecking useless without this because of the sheer volume of neutrals.
Murderers of Negotiable Motivations
Lords.Of.Midnight currently recruiting
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Vic Jefferson
Knights of Poitot Rote Kapelle
1203
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Posted - 2017.03.13 22:35:03 -
[12] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Vic Jefferson wrote: I'd have more sympathy on the intel issue, but theoretically, if you are willing to declare WAR, you should have a fair idea where and when the corporation operates.
Vic, You and I have discussed this before, the tools you're used to using don't work in highsec because they're drowned in neutral static. To track anyone who doesn't leave a kill board footprint your only option is eyes on. come to highsec, bring like three sets of neutral eyes, Find a potential candidate, track them for a week, Dec them, Watch what happens. Had we the ability to filter the map stats to some arbitrarily limitedGÇï balance point as a function of war (to be available for both parties) then yeah, I'd agree with you but dotlan and the ingame maps are utterly fecking useless without this because of the sheer volume of neutrals.
Okay. How's this. Provided the erratum of the previous post (i.e. deccers either lose the neutral logi toy or the two fun toys of cynos/MJDs enter the Hisec, or all three), rats tip you off to their location. Yeah. I'm serious. Rats.
Jolly Bearsworth is chillin in a backwater system running missions. Too bad for Jolly, those Serpentis called in some real back up - Wardeccers! I think it should be possible to hide, sure, but I think any sort of resource harvesting (ratting/mining) should play into the chances to be 'seen', given the EvE universe. NPC mining ops if not just belt rats could thus scout miners - I mean if Vic Veldspar is taking their rocks, why shouldn't they try and find his enemies to rectify the situation?
So yes, *if* real risk was introduced via the said mechanisms, I'd be happy with rats baphoning wardeccers, since clearly the watchlist had to go. Don't want to be seen, don't harvest resources, risk and reward.
Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?
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Ralph King-Griffin
Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance
20614
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Posted - 2017.03.13 23:33:34 -
[13] - Quote
ok, iv been saying this for a while now but neutral logi feels like bullshit in a war and i dont like it. raz made a handy flowchart to illustrate our feelings on the topic. command destroyers should get a targeted script (think like the hics have) to be used in hs (read: on holysheet1). cynos are a non starter, so lets not even.
yeah the rat thing is basically what i said, corp specific map filters or an agent or whatever balanced way you want to present the information.
Murderers of Negotiable Motivations
Lords.Of.Midnight currently recruiting
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Ralph King-Griffin
Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance
20614
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Posted - 2017.03.13 23:37:17 -
[14] - Quote
Khan Wrenth wrote:Hey Ralph - I had a quick idea I wanted to bounce off of you. It's relevant to the topic but not worth it's own thread, but here goes...
What if level 4 locator agents gave the location and a quick "online: yes/no" for every member of a corp? Because I don't know if, due to coding issues, we can ever get locator agents to cycle faster, so if we're stuck with a long wait for a result, we should make it worth it. oh hay khan, sorry i missed this post mate. you mean sort of like this
Murderers of Negotiable Motivations
Lords.Of.Midnight currently recruiting
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Vic Jefferson
Knights of Poitot Rote Kapelle
1203
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Posted - 2017.03.14 02:14:04 -
[15] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:cynos are a non starter, so lets not even.
How? Local is one of the most broken mechanics in the game, period. It literally defines so much game play it's absurd. I'm fine with being the most brutal, noob-crushing, angst-farming fithwizards as long as there is reasonable risk in doing so. Without cynos, content ends and begins entirely with local.
Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
47294
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Posted - 2017.03.14 03:18:03 -
[16] - Quote
Vic Jefferson wrote:Ralph King-Griffin wrote:cynos are a non starter, so lets not even. How? Local is one of the most broken mechanics in the game, period. It literally defines so much game play it's absurd. I'm fine with being the most brutal, noob-crushing, angst-farming fithwizards as long as there is reasonable risk in doing so. Without cynos, content ends and begins entirely with local. I'm not sure if cynos would make it too difficult for many defenders.
Since the only requirement to light a cyno is to be in a fleet, any neutral scout could be in system and a defender would have no way to know that they are about to be attacked. There is no warning available to them.
So while cynos would in theory be great for pvp oriented defenders, who could spring a trap, they would be even better for wardeccers, who could use the same tactic against any defender they see.
I think, the end result would be attackers would just stay docked until they have a target available, so they couldn't be hotdropped themselves; and then they would just undock to jump, kill their target and then cloak/jump back.
With tethering providing perfect safety, the wardeccers would be even harder to engage than they are now; and with passive targetters and ship scanners, they'd know in advance whether they are jumping into a trap, or an easy kill. |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
3191
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Posted - 2017.03.14 14:08:26 -
[17] - Quote
Vic Jefferson wrote:Ralph King-Griffin wrote:cynos are a non starter, so lets not even. How? Local is one of the most broken mechanics in the game, period. It literally defines so much game play it's absurd. I'm fine with being the most brutal, noob-crushing, angst-farming fithwizards as long as there is reasonable risk in doing so. Without cynos, content ends and begins entirely with local.
With cynos, the defender won't know he's about to be attacked until the cyno is lit by a neutral. NPC corp cloaky T3 lighting a cyno within 3k of you as soon as he appear which result in an enemy fleet "materializing out of thin air" right on top of you. Is this what you expect the defenders to pull off with cynos because I'm sure the attackers would. |
Collin Enderasom
Suspicious Activity Stranger Danger.
0
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Posted - 2017.03.15 21:36:14 -
[18] - Quote
Hi everyone,
first of concerning my choice of the topic's name I think it did, what it was supposed to do quite nicely(which was triggering people or getting them interested to my proposal).
Now that being said, why I propsed the idea was that me as a wormhole dweller doesn't really care about k-space all too much but even I have to leave my hole eventually and not being able to access trade hubs is a pain in the ass. I know this all sounds whiny and I admit it is, but there still is a deeper underlying problem to war-decks. I don't think we will solve this problem in this topic here but besides 'ganking' people legally in high-sec there isn't much to get out of high-sec wardecks atm. So it basically just is a nuisance to every player who gets wardecked, but essentially we all want to have fun in this game, which means that there should be some sort of way to deal with war-decks. And the general idea was, that in theory if an alliance thinks they could perma war-deck like 500 corp/alliances at the same time, these alliances could form a fleet to destroy there war module and the war would end right on the spot. The thing is everything we'll be discussing here is just in theory so we won't know for certain how people will behave unless some changes are made. I'm happy to have gotten some knew perspectives on this topic which I wasn't able to see before starting this post. So thx for everyone's thoughts so far o7 |
Ralph King-Griffin
Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance
20672
|
Posted - 2017.03.15 23:54:58 -
[19] - Quote
Actually we called exactly this about a year ago when the watchlist change was leaked.
All forms of highsec warfare were gutted barr hub campers.
We said it would happen if there weren't any surrounding balance changes to war ,intelligence gathering in highsec, or any of the other mechanics that relied upon the watchlist to function.
And it happened, within a couple of weeks the war count on all the Mercs and wardec entities (barr maybe three) increased several orders of magnitude and have maintained that level since.
The only reason you see the numbers fluctuate these days are when entities fail, Breakdown and get absorbed by one of the others.
You going to throw down against a 30-50 man rattlesnake fleet? That's what vendetta can bring at the drop of a hat, that's what you're going to have to deal with to end your war. This would also now mean that your ability to maintain a presence in a war is reliant on your ability to CTA. That's absolutely going to further compound the problem by adding another benefit to the conglomeration we have today.
Murderers of Negotiable Motivations
Lords.Of.Midnight currently recruiting
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Ajem Hinken
Quaice Industries
46
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Posted - 2017.03.16 01:47:30 -
[20] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Vimsy should be running, I wish this happened. On the wardec end, I think a better approach than proposing a structure for an attacker, is to make being in a Corp worth more. That is, proposing a structure for attackers is a view that if attackers have something to attack, defenders will attack it. But that's only going to be true for defenders that are already willing to fight. It isn't going to encourage many in highsec because from a "what's in it for me" perspective, there is still not much reason to fight. It's no better than just dropping Corp, staying docked or not logging in for a week. So wardec Corps will get bigger and will attacker much smaller Corps that are the ones who already whine; and the whining will just get worse. However, if being in a Corp provided more benefit to its members, then there might be reasons to defend. I don't know how to express this properly, but maybe it's via standings or something similar, but being in a Corp should offer more than just lower tax and an ability to own structures. If a Corp has good standings with an NPC Corp, that NPC Corp should offer something similar to an IHub, or something else that increases the ability of that Corp to improve it's income. Then don't have wardeccers declare against the player Corp, but against the NPC Corps and all Corps with standings are 'enlisted' to defend. Those that defend increase their standings and get more benefit. Those that don't, lose standing. That's a really crap outline and really abusable in the way it is written there, but I just think incentivising with benefits is better than incentivising with the ability to go hit someone else, because some people in the game are reluctant to hit others, at least unless they can see a real benefit for them, even if they lose a fight.
NPC's should definitely respond if you get attacked and you are in really good standing with them unless both of you are in good standing. The equivalent of 'You're my buddy, so I'll back you vs this guy' and 'Erm... you're both my friends... so who do I back?' respectively.
Of course, then ppl would form wardec corps with high standings with NPC's and we'd have a bigger problem as ppl who don't have good NPC standings would whine even more. Perhaps make starting wardecs lower your standing with NPC's in the area, while defending would raise them? (Invert this for pirates ofc) |
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Ajem Hinken
Quaice Industries
46
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Posted - 2017.03.16 01:51:06 -
[21] - Quote
Collin Enderasom wrote:Hi everyone,
first of concerning my choice of the topic's name I think it did, what it was supposed to do quite nicely(which was triggering people or getting them interested to my proposal).
Now that being said, why I propsed the idea was that me as a wormhole dweller doesn't really care about k-space all too much but even I have to leave my hole eventually and not being able to access trade hubs is a pain in the ass. I know this all sounds whiny and I admit it is, but there still is a deeper underlying problem to war-decks. I don't think we will solve this problem in this topic here but besides 'ganking' people legally in high-sec there isn't much to get out of high-sec wardecks atm. So it basically just is a nuisance to every player who gets wardecked, but essentially we all want to have fun in this game, which means that there should be some sort of way to deal with war-decks. And the general idea was, that in theory if an alliance thinks they could perma war-deck like 500 corp/alliances at the same time, these alliances could form a fleet to destroy there war module and the war would end right on the spot. The thing is everything we'll be discussing here is just in theory so we won't know for certain how people will behave unless some changes are made. I'm happy to have gotten some knew perspectives on this topic which I wasn't able to see before starting this post. So thx for everyone's thoughts so far o7 That's an interesting thought. Perhaps make a new status - 'Has a Common Enemy' or the like, for players who have bad standings with some of the same corps you do, or has legal kill rights on a corp you do (And no, I don't mean actual kill rights, I mean legal ability to kill in general, so war-decks count.) so you can quicker identify these people? |
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
3846
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Posted - 2017.03.16 02:36:47 -
[22] - Quote
You've always been able to look at who else is in a wardec with the corp you're in a wardec with. Its public knowledge who's decced with who.
Unfortunately people rarely use this info.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
3907
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Posted - 2017.03.16 02:51:51 -
[23] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:You've always been able to look at who else is in a wardec with the corp you're in a wardec with. Its public knowledge who's decced with who.
Unfortunately people rarely use this info. Pretty sure that's because in part crime watch screws you over. Repping another friendly who isn't specifically in the same war as you counts as neutral reps, even if you are both legal targets for the person you are engaging, or that was true initially anyway, it's possible they've changed it, feel free to test and show me wrong. So you can't make one large fleet, you can only put a bunch of tiny fleets in the same area. Meaning the wardeccers still win the fight since their logi doesn't go suspect and get shot at by everyone. |
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
3846
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Posted - 2017.03.16 04:13:56 -
[24] - Quote
I meant corps don't work together on any level. Not even sharing intel or a common chat, let alone forming fleets with one another.
Logi from different decs goes suspect for sure, but neutral logi has been a thing forever and people rarely shoot suspects in hi-sec. I'd say its still an option even though it wasn't what i meant.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
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Ralph King-Griffin
Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance
20678
|
Posted - 2017.03.16 06:19:10 -
[25] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Daichi Yamato wrote:You've always been able to look at who else is in a wardec with the corp you're in a wardec with. Its public knowledge who's decced with who.
Unfortunately people rarely use this info. Pretty sure that's because in part crime watch screws you over. Repping another friendly who isn't specifically in the same war as you counts as neutral reps, even if you are both legal targets for the person you are engaging, or that was true initially anyway, it's possible they've changed it, feel free to test and show me wrong. So you can't make one large fleet, you can only put a bunch of tiny fleets in the same area. Meaning the wardeccers still win the fight since their logi doesn't go suspect and get shot at by everyone. It actually works like this for Allie's in the same war, which is utterly stupid.
Ajem Hinken wrote: Of course, then ppl would form wardec corps with high standings with NPC's and we'd have a bigger problem as ppl who don't have good NPC standings would whine even more. Perhaps make starting wardecs lower your standing with NPC's in the area, while defending would raise them? (Invert this for pirates ofc)
Any of the corps that make extensive use of locator agents , by virtue of the fact, will have excellent standings with two or more of the empires.
Murderers of Negotiable Motivations
Lords.Of.Midnight currently recruiting
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Ajem Hinken
Quaice Industries
50
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Posted - 2017.03.17 02:15:04 -
[26] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Nevyn Auscent wrote:Daichi Yamato wrote:You've always been able to look at who else is in a wardec with the corp you're in a wardec with. Its public knowledge who's decced with who.
Unfortunately people rarely use this info. Pretty sure that's because in part crime watch screws you over. Repping another friendly who isn't specifically in the same war as you counts as neutral reps, even if you are both legal targets for the person you are engaging, or that was true initially anyway, it's possible they've changed it, feel free to test and show me wrong. So you can't make one large fleet, you can only put a bunch of tiny fleets in the same area. Meaning the wardeccers still win the fight since their logi doesn't go suspect and get shot at by everyone. It actually works like this for Allie's in the same war, which is utterly stupid. Ajem Hinken wrote: Of course, then ppl would form wardec corps with high standings with NPC's and we'd have a bigger problem as ppl who don't have good NPC standings would whine even more. Perhaps make starting wardecs lower your standing with NPC's in the area, while defending would raise them? (Invert this for pirates ofc)
Any of the corps that make extensive use of locator agents , by virtue of the fact, will have excellent standings with two or more of the empires. yes - that was silly of me to think. Still - a common enemy flag and shared agro timers should allow repping. It'd allow impromptu gatherings of ppl to actually properly fight without on the fly merging fifteen fleets.
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Ajem Hinken
Quaice Industries
50
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Posted - 2017.03.17 02:15:56 -
[27] - Quote
Removed - accidentally dubposted. |
croakroach
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
26
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Posted - 2017.03.17 12:54:37 -
[28] - Quote
Dealing with neutral logistics is quite easy, use a neutral lachesis or similar to damp and force them in range (3 guards to 14km lock), neut them if they get in range. Most neutral logistics are alts, just the damps alone will throw their fleet into chaos and rapidly spiral out of control as they switch to keeping people alive instead of fighting.
Likewise in corp logistics? Throw a pirate or suspect alt at them just before the fight. How many people do you know would give up a free kill? Now someone has a timer, when the in corp logistics hit them it will either fail (safety green) or make the chain go suspect (safety yellow), or break the chain (mix of safeties in the fleet). Apply same method as above and once again, fleet in panic mode. |
croakroach
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
26
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Posted - 2017.03.17 13:20:37 -
[29] - Quote
What wardecs are missing now are the ability to hunt down targets and what i would see the solution to be is a change to locator agents. We used to have awesome tools for hunting, and things were a bit cheaper, but this has degraded over time:
- Locator agents lost the ability to inform of the marks ship name.
- Watch list will now only show people online if they are mutual standing.
- Alphas count as a member now, so inactive players add to war costs.
So what has happened is that the ones who actively hunted targets and contracts have degenerated to camping stations, gates, and pipes and waiting for the targets to come to them. Roaming 40 jumps and coming up empty handed while others sit on a gate and get 40 kills is not fun.
What i would like to see is locators able to work on a corporation or alliance: you specify a region for them to search and they return a list of say 10 random online players from that entity, their locations, and their ships if they are in space. If none are found, too bad.
I would also like to see a decent way to find bounties, the tool we have is not that good. I would recommend adding bounty information to ESI entities so we can build our own tools to find targets to hunt and possibly request to balance bounty payouts since they tend to be a tad low currently for some ships. |
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