Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Wander Prian
Art Of Explosions Hole Control
425
|
Posted - 2017.04.19 18:22:11 -
[61] - Quote
Rhyme Bittern wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:SO you would rather have nerf to DPS, tank, probe strength, mobility and EWAR I guess. Yes, if this is necessary. Personally I think it is not, because with proper limitations on refitting in space (such as timers and combat timers) the power of a T3C should not be significantly boosted by the fact that it does not need a depot. But the devs know better.
So you would nerf the main selling points of the ship to add a unneeded gimmick? Change of the year....
Wormholer for life.
|
Rhyme Bittern
Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave
25
|
Posted - 2017.04.19 18:45:49 -
[62] - Quote
Wander Prian wrote:So you would nerf the main selling points of the ship to add a unneeded gimmick? Change of the year.... I do not think the main selling point of this ship should be its power, nor do I think that the ability to change fits easily is an unneeded gimmick. And who knows, this may indeed be the change of the year |
Wander Prian
Art Of Explosions Hole Control
425
|
Posted - 2017.04.19 19:21:56 -
[63] - Quote
Rhyme Bittern wrote:Wander Prian wrote:So you would nerf the main selling points of the ship to add a unneeded gimmick? Change of the year.... I do not think the main selling point of this ship should be its power, nor do I think that the ability to change fits easily is an unneeded gimmick. And who knows, this may indeed be the change of the year
Of course the main selling point of ANY ship is the tank/dps/EWAR it's going to bring to the table. It's not the "I can save 50m3 of space and not use a mobile depot", especially since you can already change your fit in space with minimal issues.
And yes, it is a gimmick, since the restrictions you'd have to put on it to make it balanced would mean the only people who actively use this new "power" are site-runners who like to get into dangerous places in their nearly uncatchable fits and then change into ratting fits and are too lazy to get a mobile depot with them.
Wormholer for life.
|
Rhyme Bittern
Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave
25
|
Posted - 2017.04.19 19:27:41 -
[64] - Quote
Wander Prian wrote:yes, it is a gimmick There is an obvious contradiction in your argument. If this is only a gimmick, than the ship will not get nerfed because of it. If it is more than a gimmick, than it will be worth the nerf.
|
Wander Prian
Art Of Explosions Hole Control
425
|
Posted - 2017.04.19 19:39:56 -
[65] - Quote
Rhyme Bittern wrote:Wander Prian wrote:yes, it is a gimmick There is an obvious contradiction in your argument. If this is only a gimmick, than the ship will not get nerfed because of it. If it is more than a gimmick, than it will be worth the nerf.
It is a gimmick as every ship already can change their fit in space. That is what the mobile depot is for (as well as ships with the refitting service)
Even if it is a gimmick, it is a powerfull ability that will need to be balanced by (likely) drop the cargohold size to keep you from being able to have too many items with you as well as limiting when you are able to change your fit.
Wormholer for life.
|
Rhyme Bittern
Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave
25
|
Posted - 2017.04.19 19:48:55 -
[66] - Quote
Wander Prian wrote:Even if it is a gimmick, it is a powerfull ability that will need to be balanced That's a contradiction in terms.
|
Rhyme Bittern
Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave
25
|
Posted - 2017.04.19 19:54:01 -
[67] - Quote
By the way, I think that your idea about limiting the refitting ability by limiting carrying capacity is not bad. However, I think this needs to be done using a special refitting bay, not the regular cargo bay. This way it will be easier to tweak the number of possible configurations a single ship can carry without tempering with its cargo capacity. This will also enable an easy way to trigger refitting timers. |
Cade Windstalker
1395
|
Posted - 2017.04.19 19:55:09 -
[68] - Quote
Rhyme Bittern wrote:Cade Windstalker wrote: Even being able to swap out modules on the fly would give a T3C a ridiculous number of options
Come on mate, I mentioned several times that refitting in space should not be available during combat or after it. This covers the cases you brought up.
It does not, the current combat refitting timer is from when you shoot to a minute after you stop shooting. It says nothing about being in combat generally, and even if you completely restricted it while under any kind of combat timer it would *still* be stupidly powerful and half the situations on my list would still apply in some way shape or form. |
Rhyme Bittern
Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave
25
|
Posted - 2017.04.19 20:13:10 -
[69] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Rhyme Bittern wrote:Cade Windstalker wrote: Even being able to swap out modules on the fly would give a T3C a ridiculous number of options
Come on mate, I mentioned several times that refitting in space should not be available during combat or after it. This covers the cases you brought up. It does not, the current combat refitting timer is from when you shoot to a minute after you stop shooting. It says nothing about being in combat generally, and even if you completely restricted it while under any kind of combat timer it would *still* be stupidly powerful and half the situations on my list would still apply in some way shape or form.
These are valid points. I think that the restriction timer should be enhanced to cover all those situations, then. |
Cade Windstalker
1396
|
Posted - 2017.04.19 20:18:43 -
[70] - Quote
Rhyme Bittern wrote:Cade Windstalker wrote:Rhyme Bittern wrote:Cade Windstalker wrote: Even being able to swap out modules on the fly would give a T3C a ridiculous number of options
Come on mate, I mentioned several times that refitting in space should not be available during combat or after it. This covers the cases you brought up. It does not, the current combat refitting timer is from when you shoot to a minute after you stop shooting. It says nothing about being in combat generally, and even if you completely restricted it while under any kind of combat timer it would *still* be stupidly powerful and half the situations on my list would still apply in some way shape or form. These are valid points. I think that the restriction timer should be enhanced to cover all those situations, then.
At which point we are back at the point of "do not allow refitting without a mobile depot or other external fitting service" |
|
Rhyme Bittern
Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave
25
|
Posted - 2017.04.19 20:26:18 -
[71] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote: At which point we are back at the point of "do not allow refitting without a mobile depot or other external fitting service"
I don't think so. The problem with a depot is that it blocks (in a non-interesting way) the ability to multi-fit in general. Timers are a more fine-tuned way to control specific scenarios where unfair advantages appear.
|
Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6413
|
Posted - 2017.04.19 22:01:03 -
[72] - Quote
Rhyme Bittern wrote:Wander Prian wrote:You thinking something is needed does not mean it is. It does not, but I work with what I have. So far you have only said that "things are like that now, and this means they should stay like that in the future". When you will post a valid argument, like the ones made by others in this thread, you will be entitled to a serious reply.
Choices in this game are very important. Should I use fit A or B? Kite or brawl? Your proposal removes the element of choice and as such removes an important element of the game. Further, it could make the ships over powered. Yes, I am aware of you limiting this to not include combat, but still it would make for a very powerful ship. CCP will almost surely first nerf T3Cs before giving them this buff. So you will not get what you are asking for.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
|
Rhyme Bittern
Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave
25
|
Posted - 2017.04.20 07:05:32 -
[73] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Your proposal removes the element of choice and as such removes an important element of the game. Your other concerns were discussed several times in this thread, but this one is new and it is important. From listening to the dev talk I got the impression that CCP's vision concerning T3Cs is exactly that - a single ship that changes its role continuously, in-flight. I think that this actually enhances and intensifies the element of choice rather than remove it. Should I fit for pvp now and try to overcome the opponents in the system I just entered, or should I use my travel configuration and try to escape? Should I help my fleet as a support ship, a DPS ship or an EWAR ship? Is it safe for me to fit as a pve ship in this system? The fact that I make my choices in space rather than in a station does not mean I have less of a choice. |
Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6414
|
Posted - 2017.04.20 07:28:42 -
[74] - Quote
Rhyme Bittern wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Your proposal removes the element of choice and as such removes an important element of the game. Your other concerns were discussed several times in this thread, but this one is new and it is important. From listening to the dev talk I got the impression that CCP's vision concerning T3Cs is exactly that - a single ship that changes its role continuously, in-flight. I think that this actually enhances and intensifies the element of choice rather than remove it. Should I fit for pvp now and try to overcome the opponents in the system I just entered, or should I use my travel configuration and try to escape? Should I help my fleet as a support ship, a DPS ship or an EWAR ship? Is it safe for me to fit as a pve ship in this system? The fact that I make my choices in space rather than in a station does not mean I have less of a choice.
Really, then why was that not what they implemented? And even if this is the case, trust me they will nerf it big time first. We have seen this time and time again.
As for your "choices" the thing is you're "choices" are not constrained like they currently are, removing that constraint makes the ship more powerful necessitating an ex ante nerf before implementing these changes.
Careful what you wish for...chances are it is going to be something that bites you in the ass, just as the changes to freighters have ended up biting idiot haulers in the ass.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
|
Rhyme Bittern
Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave
25
|
Posted - 2017.04.20 07:37:59 -
[75] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote: Really, then why was that not what they implemented? And even if this is the case, trust me they will nerf it big time first. We have seen this time and time again.
The point of this forum is to discuss ideas that are not implemented yet, but should (or should not) be. Regarding the nerf - read the thread. I have no problem with it if it comes, and things are already going to change drastically after the coming rebalance. |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
3318
|
Posted - 2017.04.20 12:23:53 -
[76] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote: Really, then why was that not what they implemented? And even if this is the case, trust me they will nerf it big time first. We have seen this time and time again.
If they had not gone back on their base idea that WH were not supposed to be populated permanently, T3 that can swap fit easily would of been the perfect ship design for that. Get in, fit for the content you spot there, run it and get out. A ship that really is a jack of all trade master of none would get used in place where getting the right ship is not exactly easy because of the relatively unknown portion of it.
We're way past that point right now tho and there is no going back on that by now. |
Cade Windstalker
1412
|
Posted - 2017.04.20 12:54:48 -
[77] - Quote
Rhyme Bittern wrote:Cade Windstalker wrote: At which point we are back at the point of "do not allow refitting without a mobile depot or other external fitting service"
I don't think so. The problem with a depot is that it blocks (in a non-interesting way) the ability to multi-fit in general. Timers are a more fine-tuned way to control specific scenarios where unfair advantages appear.
It does not, the space required is fairly minimal on all but the smallest ships and those are already the ones most able to abuse refitting in space by swapping between travel and combat fits because their travel fits are so effective. For any other ship the 50m3 of a depot is a far lower impact than the space required for the fitting.
What the depot does is require that you anchor something that can be shot and probed down and sit still in space while refitting. Both of these are mostly balanced trade-offs to the incredible power the ability to change your ship's capabilities on the fly gives you.
In order for any kind of fiat self-refitting ability on a T3 to be balanced it would need to be balanced against a T3 simply using a mobile depot, at which point it's probably flat out worse than just using the mobile depot, because it doesn't have that small trade-off and invites abuse, so why implement it in the first place? |
Rhyme Bittern
Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave
25
|
Posted - 2017.04.20 13:05:07 -
[78] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:so why implement it in the first place? Mostly because of the fun factor. When you have to stop dead and anchor constructions in space in order to reconfigure a ship that its role is to be reconfigurable, you miss on the adventure potential that it should offer. My problem with the depot mechanic is not the risk involved in it, but the delay and the time consumption.
The size of mobile depots is also not to be trifled with, considering that you need the cargo space for extra modules and extra sub-systems as well. It practically blocks T3Cs from becoming "adventure-into-the-unknown ships". |
Wander Prian
Art Of Explosions Hole Control
427
|
Posted - 2017.04.20 13:20:38 -
[79] - Quote
Rhyme Bittern wrote:Cade Windstalker wrote:so why implement it in the first place? Mostly because of the fun factor. When you have to stop dead and anchor constructions in space in order to reconfigure a ship that its role is to be reconfigurable, you miss on the adventure potential that it should offer. My problem with the depot mechanic is not the risk involved in it, but the delay and the time consumption. The size of mobile depots is also not to be trifled with, considering that you need the cargo space for extra modules and extra sub-systems as well. It practically blocks T3Cs from becoming "adventure-into-the-unknown" ships.
And what you keep missing is that in order to balance this "fun" mechanic, CCP will likely make you sit in space for 2-5 minutes and you are unable to do anything while the timer is running.
Wormholer for life.
|
Rhyme Bittern
Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave
25
|
Posted - 2017.04.20 13:27:13 -
[80] - Quote
Wander Prian wrote:in order to balance this "fun" mechanic, CCP will likely make you sit in space for 2-5 minutes and you are unable to do anything while the timer is running. One of the reasons I see for having this thread is so CCP becomes aware of our actual needs and wishes. I hope they find balancing mechanisms that do not involve hindrance of gameplay. |
|
Wander Prian
Art Of Explosions Hole Control
428
|
Posted - 2017.04.20 13:58:40 -
[81] - Quote
Rhyme Bittern wrote:Wander Prian wrote:in order to balance this "fun" mechanic, CCP will likely make you sit in space for 2-5 minutes and you are unable to do anything while the timer is running. One of the reasons I see for having this thread is so CCP becomes aware of our actual needs and wishes. I hope they find balancing mechanisms that do not involve hindrance of gameplay.
1) There is no need for this. Only you wishing for easier PVE
2) There is no way in hell this kind of ability would not be balanced by a timer you'd have to wait out in space, sitting still, while visible. The timer would likely be at least as long as the time it takes to anchor a mobile depot.
If you want examples how CCP balancing works, look at freighters or capitals.
What you seem to want is a tactical cruiser, that is able to change into whatever is needed with no meaningful choices.
Wormholer for life.
|
Rhyme Bittern
Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave
25
|
Posted - 2017.04.20 14:07:47 -
[82] - Quote
Wander Prian wrote:There is no need for this. Only you wishing for easier PVE
On the contrary, I want harder pve. And I want the ship that will let me attempt it. |
Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6414
|
Posted - 2017.04.20 21:57:59 -
[83] - Quote
Rhyme Bittern wrote:Wander Prian wrote:in order to balance this "fun" mechanic, CCP will likely make you sit in space for 2-5 minutes and you are unable to do anything while the timer is running. One of the reasons I see for having this thread is so CCP becomes aware of our actual needs and wishes. I hope they find balancing mechanisms that do not involve hindrance of gameplay.
Needs and wishes are kind of irrelevant when it comes to balance issues.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
|
James Zimmer
D3RP Clan Elemental Tide
92
|
Posted - 2017.04.20 22:04:37 -
[84] - Quote
Rhyme Bittern wrote:The point of t3 strategic cruisers is not power, but versatility. As noted by devs, they should not be better than dedicated ships, but they should be able to fill many of their various roles.
In the coming t3 balance, many of the current abilities and stats of t3 crusers will be nerfed, and rightfully so. However, their ability to fill multiple roles should be emphasised. One of the ways to do this should be to let strategic cruisers refit in space directly from their cargo bays, without having to use a mobile depot and the such. This will help the lone wolves using them immensely, because without a mobile depot their cargo bays will become free to carry alternative fits. Timers can be utilised to make sure this is not exploited.
What say you?
I'm all about simplifying things that require a lot of button clicks when they can take fewer button clicks, and this makes even more sense for a ship that's supposed to emphasize versatility. If I could ask for anything, I would say.
1. The ship must be stopped to begin refitting. 2. After you begin refitting, your ship can't do anything for 45 seconds. No weapons, no shield boosters, nothing. The time is lower than the 60 second mobile depot, because otherwise, this is actually a nerf in a way. 3. The game uses pre-refit stats until the refit is complete (to prevent people from instantly throwing on a stack of armor plates and shield extenders to extend their life). 4. There is a cool animation that shows the refit happening. |
Wander Prian
Art Of Explosions Hole Control
429
|
Posted - 2017.04.20 22:15:30 -
[85] - Quote
James Zimmer wrote:Rhyme Bittern wrote:The point of t3 strategic cruisers is not power, but versatility. As noted by devs, they should not be better than dedicated ships, but they should be able to fill many of their various roles.
In the coming t3 balance, many of the current abilities and stats of t3 crusers will be nerfed, and rightfully so. However, their ability to fill multiple roles should be emphasised. One of the ways to do this should be to let strategic cruisers refit in space directly from their cargo bays, without having to use a mobile depot and the such. This will help the lone wolves using them immensely, because without a mobile depot their cargo bays will become free to carry alternative fits. Timers can be utilised to make sure this is not exploited.
What say you? I'm all about simplifying things that require a lot of button clicks when they can take fewer button clicks, and this makes even more sense for a ship that's supposed to emphasize versatility. If I could ask for anything, I would say. 1. The ship must be stopped to begin refitting. 2. After you begin refitting, your ship can't do anything for 45 seconds. No weapons, no shield boosters, nothing. The time is lower than the 60 second mobile depot, because otherwise, this is actually a nerf in a way. 3. The game uses pre-refit stats until the refit is complete (to prevent people from instantly throwing on a stack of armor plates and shield extenders to extend their life). 4. There is a cool animation that shows the refit happening.
2) The timer would be longer as it's a special case thing 3) Probably not possible due to coding 4)100% not possible due to game-coding.
Wormholer for life.
|
James Zimmer
D3RP Clan Elemental Tide
92
|
Posted - 2017.04.20 22:34:27 -
[86] - Quote
Wander Prian wrote:
2) The timer would be longer as it's a special case thing 3) Probably not possible due to coding 4)100% not possible due to game-coding.
2. Difference of opinion, but you could do the same time or longer if you wanted 3. Actually, this is extremely possible, and probably easy. Your armor repper runs its entire cycle on one stat and then updates your armor stat at the end of the cycle, this is essentially the same thing, just updating more stats. 4. An animation is extremely doable. There are animations when you go into warp, or go into bastion. Even when you lock onto another ship there's an animation as your guns rotate to track that ship. You would just need tear down and build up animations for every subsystem in the game. It's a decent amount of work, but not at all impossible. |
Cade Windstalker
1416
|
Posted - 2017.04.20 22:35:49 -
[87] - Quote
Wander Prian wrote:James Zimmer wrote:I'm all about simplifying things that require a lot of button clicks when they can take fewer button clicks, and this makes even more sense for a ship that's supposed to emphasize versatility. If I could ask for anything, I would say.
1. The ship must be stopped to begin refitting. 2. After you begin refitting, your ship can't do anything for 45 seconds. No weapons, no shield boosters, nothing. The time is lower than the 60 second mobile depot, because otherwise, this is actually a nerf in a way. 3. The game uses pre-refit stats until the refit is complete (to prevent people from instantly throwing on a stack of armor plates and shield extenders to extend their life). 4. There is a cool animation that shows the refit happening. 2) The timer would be longer as it's a special case thing 3) Probably not possible due to coding 4)100% not possible due to game-coding.
#1 is also not actually possible due to coding, at least not in any meaningful sense.
You can set your intended velocity to zero, and it will drop until CCP.Round gets bored and says it's zero, but once you've moved your ship you have a vector and a speed in space.
Strictly speaking you could say "Velocity < 1" or whatever, but that would still make this worth less than a mobile depot in most cases, so yeah not a fan.
Oh and none of Zimmer's suggestions here line up well with current refitting mechanics, at all. |
James Zimmer
D3RP Clan Elemental Tide
92
|
Posted - 2017.04.20 22:49:19 -
[88] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:
#1 is also not actually possible due to coding, at least not in any meaningful sense.
You can set your intended velocity to zero, and it will drop until CCP.Round gets bored and says it's zero, but once you've moved your ship you have a vector and a speed in space.
Strictly speaking you could say "Velocity < 1" or whatever, but that would still make this worth less than a mobile depot in most cases, so yeah not a fan.
Oh and none of Zimmer's suggestions here line up well with current refitting mechanics, at all.
Ok Cade, you got me I should have said less than a certain, low speed, or thrown a number out there like 5 m/s or something. However, we're not writing the code here, just ideas, and "stopped" conveys the idea just fine, unless the world has suddenly changed to the world of The Giver where we must use "precision of language".
The mechanics I suggested are a bit different than current mechanics, but it's not dramatic, mostly just an added timer, and probably an animation over the module so you know how long you have left. I can't imagine that either of those would be that complicated. Besides, I'm not sure that a bit different is a bad thing. Why not put a time delay on ALL refitting in space? People swapping out guns faster than they can reload those guns always seemed a bit cheesy to me. |
Cade Windstalker
1416
|
Posted - 2017.04.20 23:25:50 -
[89] - Quote
James Zimmer wrote:Ok Cade, you got me I should have said less than a certain, low speed, or thrown a number out there like 5 m/s or something. However, we're not writing the code here, just ideas, and "stopped" conveys the idea just fine, unless the world has suddenly changed to the world of The Giver where we must use "precision of language". The mechanics I suggested are a bit different than current mechanics, but it's not dramatic, mostly just an added timer, and probably an animation over the module so you know how long you have left. I can't imagine that either of those would be that complicated. Besides, I'm not sure that a bit different is a bad thing. Why not put a time delay on ALL refitting in space? People swapping out guns faster than they can reload those guns always seemed a bit cheesy to me.
Like I said, it's a fun fact not so much a meaningful objection.
I personally think this whole idea is deeply flawed and OP.
And yes, what you're suggesting would be dramatically different than current mechanics, in that you would have the stats of the ship with those old modules persist while refitting. That would be a *major* change from how it works now. Never mind that you don't take into account things like active vs passive modules and similar.
You can't refit with a weapons timer or while a module is cycling, so you can't refit a gun in lieu of reloading it. |
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
1142
|
Posted - 2017.04.21 10:16:33 -
[90] - Quote
At one point I've suggested something similar (still have a link to that, quite possibly, a trainwreck of an idea in my signature, loo lazy to remove it).
Tbh I think that at this point CCP already know what they want of T3Cs, so these suggestions are, possibly, too late to the party.
Future of T3 cruisers - multi-tool they aspired to be instead of sledgehammer they have become
|
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |