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Anatole Papadopoulos
State War Academy Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2012.01.11 16:59:00 -
[1] - Quote
Some time ago I decided that I wanted to play with drones more than I currently did GÇô so aside from buffing my drone skills a little, the big question was should I train Gallente ships? But I realized I could get a decent drone bay with a Typhoon and fly drones immediately. This is a long way of saying that almost every race/ship can currently use almost every weapon system GÇô and this is boring. If I want to put lasers on Minmatar, I can. If I want to put projectile on Caldari, I can. WhatGÇÖs the point when almost every race/ship can use almost every weapon system?
It would be so much more interesting (especially on the tactics level) if only one race could use a given type of weapon system, i.e. lasers canGÇÖt be put on anything but Amarr, projectiles only on Minmatar, missiles only on Caldari, and hybrids only on Gallente. Drones can be handled in a similar manner but slightly differently GÇô Gallente are the only race with GÇÿlargeGÇÖ drone bays, other races are limited to drone bays with at most 5 drones and maybe also limited by drone size, i.e. only heavy drones on Battleships. Carriers and Super Carriers are a little tougher if you limit them to only Gallente GÇô but this only means you give at least one of the races a specialized capital ship that can counter a carrier GÇô whatz wrong with a very fast high accuracy projectile capital? And thereGÇÖs no reason that all races should be able to counter a carrier/super-carrier GÇô maybe only Amarr can, and only Minmatar can counter that Amarr specialized ship, and only Caldari can counter GǪ.. IGÇÖm not trying to promote/advocate Gallente or drones GÇô I canGÇÖt even fly Gallente. I am promoting the idea that each race have a very distinctive superior in a given type of weapon system. Maybe Amarr BS need to be able to lauch bombs and everyone else is limited to frigates, maybe Minmatar BS need to be able to do EW while the others canGÇÖt or can only do it poorly.
I grant you that this would make a radical change in game-play, but the idea is to make each race much more specialized in terms of offensive weapons, and to counter one race you need to fly a specific other race, or to significantly complement a race you need to fly a specific third race. This is not Factional Warfare but it is more Role Playing GÇô and if youGÇÖre not role-playing why have more than one race?
But I can hear the howls of protest now GǪ. but IGÇÖve trained so much that I wouldnGÇÖt be able use anymore GǪ but thereGÇÖs no reason to do that GǪ but, but, but. ThereGÇÖs always a reason to not do something, but I think thereGÇÖs a darn good reason to make each race very distinctive.
So allow a one-time skill point reallocation. Got a boat-load of SP in ships for all 4 races but none of them are outstanding? Keep it that way it you want GÇô or de-allocate some/all your SP and get instant-skill-point-allocation-learning for a very customized character in one or two races. Want to specialize in one particular type of game/role-play but donGÇÖt want to start from scratch to train frigate-to-battleship for a particular race to get there? One time de-allocate and reallocate your SP.
ThatGÇÖs my opinion, whatGÇÖs yours?
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Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
2683
|
Posted - 2012.01.11 17:03:00 -
[2] - Quote
My opinion: racism is never cool, kids
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ GÇö Karath Piki |
Roscada
We love Egg
14
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Posted - 2012.01.11 17:04:00 -
[3] - Quote
Anatole Papadopoulos wrote:blah blah blah
ThatGÇÖs my opinion, whatGÇÖs yours?
Put lasers on your typhoon and take it out for a fight. Come back and tell me again that the fitting restrictions you want aren't already in place. |
Skydell
Space Mermaids
97
|
Posted - 2012.01.11 17:05:00 -
[4] - Quote
Arti Baddon FTW
Life was good when people flew Crapdari. Tachyon, volley dmg was insane. Then came Winmatar |
Anatole Papadopoulos
State War Academy Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2012.01.11 17:07:00 -
[5] - Quote
I am NOT advocating racial prejudice or discrimination - I am advocating racial differences |
Grateler
The People's Liberation Front of Offugen
10
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Posted - 2012.01.11 17:08:00 -
[6] - Quote
Ships have bonuses for the racial weapons already.
You can put lasers on a minmater ship and projectiles on amarr. They will however suck. |
Sakurako Kimino
Volatile Nature
11
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Posted - 2012.01.11 17:08:00 -
[7] - Quote
Anatole Papadopoulos wrote:Some time ago I decided that I wanted to play with drones more than I currently did GÇô so aside from buffing my drone skills a little, the big question was should I train Gallente ships? But I realized I could get a decent drone bay with a Typhoon and fly drones immediately. This is a long way of saying that almost every race/ship can currently use almost every weapon system GÇô and this is boring. If I want to put lasers on Minmatar, I can. If I want to put projectile on Caldari, I can. WhatGÇÖs the point when almost every race/ship can use almost every weapon system?
It would be so much more interesting (especially on the tactics level) if only one race could use a given type of weapon system, i.e. lasers canGÇÖt be put on anything but Amarr, projectiles only on Minmatar, missiles only on Caldari, and hybrids only on Gallente. Drones can be handled in a similar manner but slightly differently GÇô Gallente are the only race with GÇÿlargeGÇÖ drone bays, other races are limited to drone bays with at most 5 drones and maybe also limited by drone size, i.e. only heavy drones on Battleships. Carriers and Super Carriers are a little tougher if you limit them to only Gallente GÇô but this only means you give at least one of the races a specialized capital ship that can counter a carrier GÇô whatz wrong with a very fast high accuracy projectile capital? And thereGÇÖs no reason that all races should be able to counter a carrier/super-carrier GÇô maybe only Amarr can, and only Minmatar can counter that Amarr specialized ship, and only Caldari can counter GǪ.. IGÇÖm not trying to promote/advocate Gallente or drones GÇô I canGÇÖt even fly Gallente. I am promoting the idea that each race have a very distinctive superior in a given type of weapon system. Maybe Amarr BS need to be able to lauch bombs and everyone else is limited to frigates, maybe Minmatar BS need to be able to do EW while the others canGÇÖt or can only do it poorly.
I grant you that this would make a radical change in game-play, but the idea is to make each race much more specialized in terms of offensive weapons, and to counter one race you need to fly a specific other race, or to significantly complement a race you need to fly a specific third race. This is not Factional Warfare but it is more Role Playing GÇô and if youGÇÖre not role-playing why have more than one race?
But I can hear the howls of protest now GǪ. but IGÇÖve trained so much that I wouldnGÇÖt be able use anymore GǪ but thereGÇÖs no reason to do that GǪ but, but, but. ThereGÇÖs always a reason to not do something, but I think thereGÇÖs a darn good reason to make each race very distinctive.
So allow a one-time skill point reallocation. Got a boat-load of SP in ships for all 4 races but none of them are outstanding? Keep it that way it you want GÇô or de-allocate some/all your SP and get instant-skill-point-allocation-learning for a very customized character in one or two races. Want to specialize in one particular type of game/role-play but donGÇÖt want to start from scratch to train frigate-to-battleship for a particular race to get there? One time de-allocate and reallocate your SP.
ThatGÇÖs my opinion, whatGÇÖs yours?
sandbox, ccp has given us tools to do most anything in game so why change that. also hybrid are down to 2 parts rails are caldari and blasters are gallente look up the invention list for this info.
also against reallocation of skill points you and i made our choises now we have to live with it
eve is about sin |
Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
2683
|
Posted - 2012.01.11 17:09:00 -
[8] - Quote
Anatole Papadopoulos wrote:I am NOT advocating racial prejudice or discrimination - I am advocating racial differences
Ok, sorry, you're not racist. You're merely racialist.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ GÇö Karath Piki |
Skydell
Space Mermaids
97
|
Posted - 2012.01.11 17:12:00 -
[9] - Quote
Anatole Papadopoulos wrote:I am NOT advocating racial prejudice or discrimination - I am advocating racial differences
If they had set up the original lore so it was 4 on 4 and not 2 on 2 this would have worked. Due to lore and strengths and weakness based on enemies that don't exsist we get to play mix and match or omni skill our chars. What most people end up doing. |
Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
1684
|
Posted - 2012.01.11 17:21:00 -
[10] - Quote
Anatole Papadopoulos wrote:Some time ago I decided that I wanted to play with drones more than I currently did GÇô so aside from buffing my drone skills a little, the big question was should I train Gallente ships? But I realized I could get a decent drone bay with a Typhoon and fly drones immediately. This is a long way of saying that almost every race/ship can currently use almost every weapon system GÇô and this is boring. If I want to put lasers on Minmatar, I can. If I want to put projectile on Caldari, I can. WhatGÇÖs the point when almost every race/ship can use almost every weapon system?
It would be so much more interesting (especially on the tactics level) if only one race could use a given type of weapon system, i.e. lasers canGÇÖt be put on anything but Amarr, projectiles only on Minmatar, missiles only on Caldari, and hybrids only on Gallente. Drones can be handled in a similar manner but slightly differently GÇô Gallente are the only race with GÇÿlargeGÇÖ drone bays, other races are limited to drone bays with at most 5 drones and maybe also limited by drone size, i.e. only heavy drones on Battleships. Carriers and Super Carriers are a little tougher if you limit them to only Gallente GÇô but this only means you give at least one of the races a specialized capital ship that can counter a carrier GÇô whatz wrong with a very fast high accuracy projectile capital? And thereGÇÖs no reason that all races should be able to counter a carrier/super-carrier GÇô maybe only Amarr can, and only Minmatar can counter that Amarr specialized ship, and only Caldari can counter GǪ.. IGÇÖm not trying to promote/advocate Gallente or drones GÇô I canGÇÖt even fly Gallente. I am promoting the idea that each race have a very distinctive superior in a given type of weapon system. Maybe Amarr BS need to be able to lauch bombs and everyone else is limited to frigates, maybe Minmatar BS need to be able to do EW while the others canGÇÖt or can only do it poorly.
I grant you that this would make a radical change in game-play, but the idea is to make each race much more specialized in terms of offensive weapons, and to counter one race you need to fly a specific other race, or to significantly complement a race you need to fly a specific third race. This is not Factional Warfare but it is more Role Playing GÇô and if youGÇÖre not role-playing why have more than one race?
But I can hear the howls of protest now GǪ. but IGÇÖve trained so much that I wouldnGÇÖt be able use anymore GǪ but thereGÇÖs no reason to do that GǪ but, but, but. ThereGÇÖs always a reason to not do something, but I think thereGÇÖs a darn good reason to make each race very distinctive.
So allow a one-time skill point reallocation. Got a boat-load of SP in ships for all 4 races but none of them are outstanding? Keep it that way it you want GÇô or de-allocate some/all your SP and get instant-skill-point-allocation-learning for a very customized character in one or two races. Want to specialize in one particular type of game/role-play but donGÇÖt want to start from scratch to train frigate-to-battleship for a particular race to get there? One time de-allocate and reallocate your SP.
ThatGÇÖs my opinion, whatGÇÖs yours?
No not really. I think the current system is much better and interesting and doesn't put so many pointless restrictions on the players or limitations on their enginuity. Roleplaying isn't determined by some silly class or race distinctions either. If your character values amarr purity for example, nothing is preventing you from only training amarr ships and fitting them acording to the amarr fleet doctrine. Forcing others to limit their roleplaying with your ideals is counter to what good roleplaying is all about. Your ship ideas generally seem to be ignoring many considerations as well and are therefore problematic to say the least. I think the races are quite distinctive as it is, although some specialized ship classes do resemble one another very much, but that is to be expected. They are meant to perform the same function, so some similarities is to be expected.
Also keep in mind, that too much specialization can lead to extinction. We have had various races been pushed in to obscurity because of shifts in the way the game has evolved and what tactics are used. If an entire race is too specialized, the risk of them becoming entirely obsolite is even greater. Considering a new player has no way of knowing any of this beforehand and it takes a long time to train an entire ship tree for a race, it seems like an even worse idea. You know this is a bad idea yourself and instead of seeing your idea as a crap one, you turn to increasingly bad ideas to cover for your failings. The current system is simply better for everyone and it doesn't have to rely on implementing other questionable ideas to work properly.
TL;DR : You're a racist. |
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Valei Khurelem
136
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Posted - 2012.01.11 17:24:00 -
[11] - Quote
Roscada wrote:Anatole Papadopoulos wrote:blah blah blah
ThatGÇÖs my opinion, whatGÇÖs yours?
Put lasers on your typhoon and take it out for a fight. Come back and tell me again that the fitting restrictions you want aren't already in place.
This is amazing, I can see you put a huge amount of thought, common sense and critical thinking into this post. |
Xercodo
Train Brigade
784
|
Posted - 2012.01.11 17:29:00 -
[12] - Quote
Roscada wrote:Anatole Papadopoulos wrote:blah blah blah
ThatGÇÖs my opinion, whatGÇÖs yours?
Put lasers on your typhoon and take it out for a fight. Come back and tell me again that the fitting restrictions you want aren't already in place.
/emote is guilty of PVE laser-phoon :3 The Drake is a Lie |
Rel'k Bloodlor
Mecha Enterprises Fleet
56
|
Posted - 2012.01.11 17:33:00 -
[13] - Quote
Because I can put taco sauce one my sushi that's why. If your phoon can get the same DPS out of drones as a domi can then may be Ill buy your idea, but it can't so I wont. |
Tannis Maya
7th Interval
0
|
Posted - 2012.01.11 17:33:00 -
[14] - Quote
Surely it would be a lot less interesting because you are creating a hard limit on the number of fitting permutations you can meet in the universe.
Your scheme would mean opponents would instantly know pretty much exactly how each other are fit and the outcome of engagements before combat begins.
All you would do is make the rock, paper, scissor nature of eve combat even more obvious.
no thanks. |
MadMuppet
Kerguelen Station
74
|
Posted - 2012.01.11 17:36:00 -
[15] - Quote
Xercodo wrote: /emote is guilty of PVE laser-phoon :3
You're guilt of fitting anything I think I still have the fitting for your combat Procurer.
Yes, I only have a Vigil, I've had a bad bit of luck Ok? |
Shiki Mikkyou
4
|
Posted - 2012.01.11 17:37:00 -
[16] - Quote
CCP, we need a Benetton ad in here, pronto! Birds. |
Mai Khumm
Apple Construction Inc Northern Associates.
151
|
Posted - 2012.01.11 17:43:00 -
[17] - Quote
I thought of this too, but I was thinking a little further. Caldari can only pilot Caldari ships, Amarr only Amarr ships, etc etc etc...
Little too late for both my argument and yours, move on... James Hetfield, can you please hit the bottle again and make good music? |
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
205
|
Posted - 2012.01.11 17:56:00 -
[18] - Quote
Others have mentioned: ~Ship bonuses~ ~Fitting requirements~
I will echo the same feeling. The Typhoon is not a drone boat by any meaning of the words "Drone Boat". It will get outperformed by a Dominix every time. Lasers on Minmatar ships don't work because of the fitting/capacitor requirements. Autocannons on Caldari ships suck because Caldari ships are slow as hell. Sure, some weird things can actually work, but that's called creative fitting, and adds a very nice flavor of "what the hell did that Myrmidon fire lasers at me" to PvP.
OP needs to stop complaining, learn to fit ships, and post stuff like this in F&I, not GD. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
4325
|
Posted - 2012.01.11 17:59:00 -
[19] - Quote
Removes the possibility of variety, creativity, and decision-making just to reinforce a system that effectively already exists.
-1. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs. |
My Neutral Toon
Knights Who Til Recently Said Ni
3
|
Posted - 2012.01.11 17:59:00 -
[20] - Quote
OP:
you say its boring. It hink being able to train any skill on any character, and fit any weapon system on any ship (as long as the PG and CPU hold) is part of the FUN!
opinions are like assholes... ...Can't. Tell. If ...Troll? Or Serious.... |
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Morganta
Peripheral Madness The Midget Mafia
791
|
Posted - 2012.01.11 18:20:00 -
[21] - Quote
Roscada wrote:Anatole Papadopoulos wrote:blah blah blah
ThatGÇÖs my opinion, whatGÇÖs yours?
Put lasers on your typhoon and take it out for a fight. Come back and tell me again that the fitting restrictions you want aren't already in place.
pretty much this
OP, you are aware of a little thing called racial bonuses right?
I support the continued ability for stupid people to failfit ships because they can this directly benefits killboards as well as providing the much needed occasional LOLOP
The American public's reaction to the change was poor and the new cola was a major marketing failure. The subsequent reintroduction of Coke's original formula, re-branded as "Coca-Cola Classic", resulted in a significant gain in sales, leading to speculation that the introduction of the New Coke formula was just a marketing ploy |
Zimmy Zeta
Battle Force Industries Tactical Invader Syndicate
634
|
Posted - 2012.01.11 18:52:00 -
[22] - Quote
On a related note: today I mis-clicked in the market window and accidentally bought some t2 amarr drones. After bursting into uncontrollable laughter, I was asking myself: why are those racial drone specializations there, when all you ever use is gallente and minmatar drones? I think it would be very nice if racial drones could have a small bonus if they were used by the according ship. And no, I am not a bitter T2 Acolyte BPO holder...... things to do in eve: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-SZYZLfZ7E&feature=g-like&context=G2d6d016ALTmOeXwACAA |
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
205
|
Posted - 2012.01.11 18:59:00 -
[23] - Quote
Zimmy Zeta wrote:On a related note: today I mis-clicked in the market window and accidentally bought some t2 amarr drones. After bursting into uncontrollable laughter, I was asking myself: why are those racial drone specializations there, when all you ever use is gallente and minmatar drones?
Caldari are worth using, too.
Gallente drones = slow as hell, tanky, high damage Minmatar drones = fast as hell, flimsy, good damage Caldari drones = decent speed, good tank (mostly shield HP, good resists), better-than-Minmatar damage, cheap as hell
Amarr drones just suck. They're slower than Minmatar drones, have a little more tank, and have poorer damage.
Zimmy Zeta wrote:I think it would be very nice if racial drones could have a small bonus if they were used by the according ship. And no, I am not a bitter T2 Acolyte BPO holder......
You mean like the Helios has that useless 5% bonus to Thermal drone damage? I'm ambivalent about the idea. If it coincided with a nerf to the Gallente line of drones, particularly in tank, I'd be fine with it. It would completely wreck the Arbitrator/Pilgrim/Curse, though, as Amarr drones suck. |
Xercodo
Train Brigade
785
|
Posted - 2012.01.11 19:24:00 -
[24] - Quote
MadMuppet wrote:Xercodo wrote: /emote is guilty of PVE laser-phoon :3
You're guilt of fitting anything I think I still have the fitting for your combat Procurer.
CCP killed the possibility of my mining Aeon
btw laser maelstrom works pretty much like a ******** Nightmare The Drake is a Lie |
Large Collidable Object
morons.
929
|
Posted - 2012.01.11 19:25:00 -
[25] - Quote
Grateler wrote:
You can put lasers on a minmater ship and projectiles on amarr. They will however suck.
I'd prefer fitting projectles on any Amarr ship that's only bonus to lasers consists of the cap use bonus - same dps, lower fitting requirements, no cap use, better tracking and free damage choice.
Now I don't do it, because I can just as well fly a Minmatar ship with projectiles, receive an additional rof/damage/falloff+ a faster ship, but if I was forced to fly e.g. a punisher, maller or prophecy, I'd fit it with autocannons rather than lasers.
Even Artie-Baddons have their uses, regardless of the abaddons laser damage bonus - and don't get me started on projectile-myrms...
I like that variety, but granted - under most circumstances, a ships native races weapon system should be best, which is not the case for any Gallente/Amarr turretship that doesn't have a bonus on their guns other than a cap conusmption bonus - but that's just a problem with projetiles courrently that doesn't warrant anything the OP suggests.
As for drones: Gallente are the most drone-focused race - the other races using them are fine - especially the large drone bays on Tier 1 BS - if there wasn't it wouldn't make any sense at all to train heavies/sentries as Amarr/Minmatar unless flying a carrier. morons- sting like a butterfly and-ápost like a bee. |
Xercodo
Train Brigade
785
|
Posted - 2012.01.11 19:27:00 -
[26] - Quote
Large Collidable Object wrote:Grateler wrote:
You can put lasers on a minmater ship and projectiles on amarr. They will however suck.
I'd prefer fitting projectles on any Amarr ship that's only bonus to lasers consists of the cap use bonus - same dps, lower fitting requirements, no cap use, better tracking and free damage choice.
Punisher.....\o/ Maller.........\o/ Prophecy....\o/ Abaddon.....\o/......wait a second.....DO IT ANYWAY \o/ (Actually apoc works cause it has no dmg bonus, just range hehe) The Drake is a Lie |
Lyrrashae
Crushed Ambitions Reckless Ambition
136
|
Posted - 2012.01.11 20:23:00 -
[27] - Quote
I "liked" a Destination Skillqueue post! Yay'z for me!
Oh, and OP, you idea is bad, and you should be ashamed of yourself.
-1. I A/F/K cloak in Jita. Does that count? |
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
205
|
Posted - 2012.01.11 20:29:00 -
[28] - Quote
Xercodo wrote:Large Collidable Object wrote:Grateler wrote:
You can put lasers on a minmater ship and projectiles on amarr. They will however suck.
I'd prefer fitting projectles on any Amarr ship that's only bonus to lasers consists of the cap use bonus - same dps, lower fitting requirements, no cap use, better tracking and free damage choice. Punisher.....\o/ Maller.........\o/ Prophecy....\o/ Abaddon.....\o/......wait a second.....DO IT ANYWAY \o/ (Actually apoc works cause it has no dmg bonus, just range hehe)
Meh, I only ever put autos on those when I want a super-emphasis on tank. Lasers may have lower "paper DPS" (what's displayed in EFT) but they have far better damage projection at range.
If you can keep range, fit lasers. If not, (and your role is not just the fleet's brick) then stop flying Amarr. |
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
659
|
Posted - 2012.01.11 21:39:00 -
[29] - Quote
Petrus Blackshell wrote: Amarr drones just suck. They're slower than Minmatar drones, have a little more tank, and have poorer damage.
Amarrian drones aren't slow - they move with dignity.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori. |
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
206
|
Posted - 2012.01.11 21:42:00 -
[30] - Quote
Rodj Blake wrote:Petrus Blackshell wrote: Amarr drones just suck. They're slower than Minmatar drones, have a little more tank, and have poorer damage.
Amarrian drones aren't slow - they move with dignity.
They are most definitely not slow. You might be on to something there. At any rate, I would like to see more shiny lasers on drones, so I made a F&I thread about it, so as to not derail this one. |
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