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Dark Shikari
Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.08.05 03:28:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Dark Shikari on 05/08/2007 03:28:47 Let's say we have a fleet battle. A few hundred ships on each side line up to slam megabeams and 1400mm artillery into each other.
Suddenly everything starts lagging massively.
1. What's happening? Is the server's CPU maxed out? If yes, go on, otherwise explain what the bottleneck is.
2. What, roughly, percentage-wise, is the CPU used for?
a) Collision detection? Do the two groups of 300 ships sitting on top of each other like a useless garbage pile cause the server's collision detection to overload and waste tons of CPU power?
b) Calculating data to send to each client? Each of the 600 ships needs updates on the other 599 ships, resulting in four times as many updates as if it was a battle of half the size. Is this the main source of CPU usage?
c) Something else?
It would be nice to have an idea of exactly what is using all the servers' power during a massive fleet battle.
23 Member
EVE Video makers: save EVE-files bandwidth! Use the H.264 AutoEncoder! |
Sgt Blade
An Eye For An Eye Rule of Three
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Posted - 2007.08.05 03:34:00 -
[2]
first
id think B but im not sure
Hypnotic Pelvic Thrusting Level 5 |
Tarminic
Black Flame Industries
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Posted - 2007.08.05 03:35:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Tarminic on 05/08/2007 03:38:28 Edited by: Tarminic on 05/08/2007 03:38:07 I am actually very interested in knowing this well...I've theorized (with extra italics) that it's about (where N= number of ships involved) 5N for weapon/damage updates and N^2 for positional/collision detection updates, so once craploads of ships show up collision detection and positional updates become the primary lag-producer.
Tell us CCP! My nerd rage demands it!
EDIT: Also, I believe after a certain point, though I'm not sure, that Memory Thrashing and Thread Locking also play a major part. ------------ ULTIMATE LAG SOLUTION | Forum Whiners - Unite! |
SonOTassadar
The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc. Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2007.08.05 03:58:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Dark Shikari b) Calculating data to send to each client? Each of the 600 ships needs updates on the other 599 ships, resulting in four times as many updates as if it was a battle of half the size. Is this the main source of CPU usage?
This is where the bandwidth bottleneck would be, and I suspect it's also one of the culprits to CPU power being used up. ----- Griffin -- 100,000 ISK ECM - Multispectral Jammer Is -- 20,000 ISK Standard Missile Launcher Is -- 10,000 ISK War target sobbing over losing a fight in his T2 fitted Battleship -- priceless |
Nyphur
Pillowsoft
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Posted - 2007.08.05 05:01:00 -
[5]
I think it's entirely plausible that CCP have yet to design a method of co-ordinating ships on the same grid that is of order N. Basically, your point 2 b.
Eve-Tanking.com - We're sorry, something happened. |
Le Skunk
Low Sec Liberators
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Posted - 2007.08.05 05:01:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Dark Shikari Edited by: Dark Shikari on 05/08/2007 03:28:47 Let's say we have a fleet battle. A few hundred ships on each side line up to slam megabeams and 1400mm artillery into each other.
Suddenly everything starts lagging massively.
1. What's happening? Is the server's CPU maxed out? If yes, go on, otherwise explain what the bottleneck is.
2. What, roughly, percentage-wise, is the CPU used for?
a) Collision detection? Do the two groups of 300 ships sitting on top of each other like a useless garbage pile cause the server's collision detection to overload and waste tons of CPU power?
b) Calculating data to send to each client? Each of the 600 ships needs updates on the other 599 ships, resulting in four times as many updates as if it was a battle of half the size. Is this the main source of CPU usage?
c) Something else?
It would be nice to have an idea of exactly what is using all the servers' power during a massive fleet battle.
Its people like you that ruin the game. These poor devs are sweating their ass's off with only three luxury gourmet sandwiches a week and your whining that the game dosent live up to their advertised "huge space battles" they spen d multi million dollars on to drag in noobs!!!!!!!!
If the server cant handle it - go to an empty system and mine!!!!!! if anyone comes in system - arrange a time share with the new pilot so your never in system at the same time so as not to stress the servers.
Its not rocket science
SKUNK
Originally by: Jeximo I also like how your cat only managed to hit the enter button when he/she jumped on your keyboard.
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Haffrage
Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.08.05 05:11:00 -
[7]
Good thread. I've actually been wondering about this myself for ages. -----
Tech 2 Tier 2 Battlecruisers Eve GUI Tweaks |
umop 3pisdn
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2007.08.05 05:50:00 -
[8]
Were you in the area of 66- last night too?
10 minutes of watching blank space to get into a system a few jumps away, when we tried to leave i let it sit there saying Jumping for 40 minutes before i quit and went to bed.
Stop making pos warfare worse CCP, there were 3 rookies in the group with me last night, never been into a fleet battle, i spent hours prepping their overviews and making sure they understood exactly what would happen after we did roughly 40 jumps to get there... and we never even loaded the fight.. all of them are saying wtf why should we keep playing?
If 800~ players wanna rip each others faces off would it kill you to spare 1 GM to make it happen? organise some smaller engagements? for FUN? that thing eve used to be.
I thought that like most things, I only remembered the good in eve and forgot the **** parts of the past, but watching fleet combat videos from 2005 and early 2006 it is clear that things are in worse shape than ever.
I know this is a whine, but i saddled up at 2am and fell asleep at the pc at 7am still trying to load the fight, eve would be much cooler if it was multiplayer compatible tbh
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Evelgrivion
Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.08.05 05:55:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Evelgrivion on 05/08/2007 05:56:34 In EVE Online, the CPU is in charge of:
The user interface and shaders. At any time, there are between 1000 to 10000 UI objects on screen, + the shaders. This is what causes your computer client to lag.
On the server level, lag is caused by keeping track of the statistics for all the vessels, cans, and drones in system, keeping tabs of turret effects, and of things like missiles, sensor boosters, etc. The information for everybody is broadcast and requested for everyone with these effects turned on.
So what can you do to help reduce lag for everyone? Turn off Turret Effects (Ctrl + Shift + T), and turn off all other effects (Ctrl + Shift + E); finally, don't use any missile ships. Don't launch drones unless necessary and the situation improves for everyone. Don't copy bookmarks either
Oh yeah. You can also move combat off of the gates in order to reduce grid lag for everyone (100+ new ships on grid = THE HORROR for the server). This isn't the signature you're looking for. Can you tell me where to find the one I am looking for? -Kaemonn |
Nyphur
Pillowsoft
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Posted - 2007.08.05 06:11:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Evelgrivion So what can you do to help reduce lag for everyone? Turn off Turret Effects (Ctrl + Shift + T), and turn off all other effects (Ctrl + Shift + E);
These are client-side options, they don't stop other people from lagging.
Eve-Tanking.com - We're sorry, something happened. |
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Herculite
Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.08.05 06:40:00 -
[11]
Interesting thing about the cluster lag in 66-
500ish in local not bad.
Goons jump in a fleet somewhere in system, massive lag.
We warp to a new gate, and suddenly there is NO lag at all, and it wasn't just me, we were all talking about it. Local was around 580. A hostile megathron jumps in and our lag free fleet melts him instantly as everyone is able to lock and fire. We had 157 on grid (I checked) at this point, lag free.
Sitting on the gate, the lag increases again.
Finally when the 'fight' and I use the term loosely, happens and we have I dunno maybe 350-450 hostiles (wild guess I only had BS's on overview and it was a long scroll and based on hostiles in system) and its several mins of mod lag, warp lag, ship command lag etc. Takes ages to lock. Out of maybe 50 BS's all in lock range at one point, I got none of them to lock after perhaps 8 mins of locking. At this point I've drifted right into the heart of the enemy BS fleet, unable to change course and soon CTDed. It was obvious they were in the same boat as we were.
So what could have been epic was just frustrating, but what has me intrigued was WHY did we have that burst of no lag? The system was very full, we were all fighting, shooting at one poor target, and there was no lag.
Somewhere I think something is just not coded well, I don't think its hardware but a software issue.
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Del Narveux
Dukes of Hazard
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Posted - 2007.08.05 08:22:00 -
[12]
I would guess its a combination of server load and data transfer limits that have to do with communicating with the clients. _________________ [SAK] Alumnus--And Proud Of It! -- aka Cpt Bogus Is that my torped sig cloaking your base?
Originally by: Wrangler Well, at least we have forum PvP..
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Jim McGregor
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Posted - 2007.08.05 08:27:00 -
[13]
Ive asked this before too, but more in terms of what exactly is causing the lag. I dont know why I want to know, but it would be interesting to understand the lag.
---
Originally by: CCP Wrangler You're not supposed to feel like you're logging in to a happy, happy, fluffy, fluffy lala land filled with fun and adventures, thats what hello kitty online is for.
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Sazkyen
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Posted - 2007.08.05 08:46:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Sazkyen on 05/08/2007 08:50:54 They added so much nerf to the damage mods/attributes that the equations take seriously long to calculate Or perhaps an evil system administrator fires up SETI AT HOME on the cluseter the opposing fleets reside on.
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Cygnus Zhada
Amarr UK Corp FATAL Alliance
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Posted - 2007.08.05 09:56:00 -
[15]
Gang bonuses, for sure.
Yes, I use lasers, please stop laughing in the back. |
Frug
Zenithal Harvest
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Posted - 2007.08.05 10:00:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Herculite Somewhere I think something is just not coded well, I don't think its hardware but a software issue.
In eve? Unpossible.
- - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Hey, my marbles |
Digital Solaris
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Posted - 2007.08.05 10:03:00 -
[17]
EVE is a peer-to-peer network, so not only do we play the game, we host the game as well!
How would you explain the technical issues we have had recently otherwise? ;)
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Brutor Shaun
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Posted - 2007.08.05 10:03:00 -
[18]
If CCP knew what the cause of lag was, surely they would have fixed it by now?....
Bookmark Idea - My skills
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Jim McGregor
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Posted - 2007.08.05 10:09:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Brutor Shaun If CCP knew what the cause of lag was, surely they would have fixed it by now?....
It may not be possible to fix. Like for example, having only one CPU per solar system is a limitation that they cant fix it seems.
---
Originally by: CCP Wrangler You're not supposed to feel like you're logging in to a happy, happy, fluffy, fluffy lala land filled with fun and adventures, thats what hello kitty online is for.
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Allen Ramses
Caldari Typo Corp
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Posted - 2007.08.05 10:16:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Allen Ramses on 05/08/2007 10:16:57 As someone who has run multiple game servers in the past, I can share with you my ideas for the reason of the horrible lag. Data transfer follows the pattern of inbound, calculation, and finally outbound. It is this that I believe holds the answer to the question, which I will illustrate by scenario.
Lets imagine two systems, both with 100 clients in space. They are all performing actions, all sending out 4kb per frame. System A has 100 grids with 1 client. It receives 400kb per frame. System B has 1 grid with 100 clients. It, too, receives 400kb per frame. The localized concentration makes no difference for inbound packet manipulation.
The CPU performs 1 set of calculations per entity for each frame. System A has each solo player fighting against one NPC rat. 100 players, 100 rats. Every NPC and every player are performing actions. So as you add the sets of calculations, System A is handling 200 sets of calculations for each frame. System B has all 100 players also performing actions, but in the same grid, against one NPC. Sucks to be him, but he is fighting back anyway. System B is handling 101 sets of calculations. It is easier on the CPU to have everyone in one grid fighting an NPC than everyone on their own grid fighting an NPC.
System A and System B now send out their information to their respective players. In system A, the clients each see one NPC in their grid. As they only see that one entity, each player receives 4kb per frame at 4kb per entity. 100 players, 400kb is pushed out per frame. System B has everyone in one grid, so each player sees 99 other players, plus the NPC rat. If 100 entities seen are seen at 4kb per entity, it ends up being 400kb per player. 100 players, 40,000kb is being pushed out per frame. Yikes.
System A: 400kb in 200 calcs 400kb out
System B: 400kb in 101 calcs 40,000kb out
The units I came up with are completely random. I have no idea how big the packets are, or how many calculations per cycle the server needs to perform. Regardless, this example scenario could very well reflect what the problem is... But then again, I could be WAY off. ____________________ Pimped out Raven to run level 4 missions quickly: 210 Mil ISK. Realizing your 120 Mil ISK Drake gets the job done faster: Priceless. |
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Kolatha
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Posted - 2007.08.05 10:23:00 -
[21]
Another CPU hog would be the logic for your drones, those things are not controlled by your PC. All you do is send the drones a simple command (attack this target, return to drone bay etc) and the server figures out how to best achieve this.
This is why drones can be a real pain at times and sometimes don't respond properly or are very delayed in their response. And as you can imagine once you launch them in a major fleet conflict you are increasing server load quite significantly even before it has to start calculating the additional collisions and other little bits required for normal combat.
The work of calculating the drone logic could be given to the Eve client, but that opens up room for a whole host of other issues.
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Lord WarATron
Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.08.05 10:50:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Lord WarATron on 05/08/2007 10:50:14 Nobody really knows how CCP does it server calculations.
My theory, is that it could be that when 600th person moves or fires, the server needs to calculate data data and resend packets to the other 599 to say that person 600 fired a shot. Now the server can easaly handle 600 updates. Now..... if all 600 fire at once, I strongly suspect that thats 600x600 as the server tries to update everyone with everyone, resulting in a total extreme case of 360,000 updates it is trying to do insted of 600. Then again, perhaps not since we dont know how the eve server works. Though given the broken way the gang bonus's work, it would not surprise me.
Anyhow I am sure that if there was easy solutions, they would have happened by now. Perhaps in the future, nodes will look after 500 players each insted of 'x' numbers of systems. Then again, we are all just armchair server guys thinking we have a solution without having all the data.
Till then, I can at least watch movies till the grid loads. --
Billion Isk Mission |
Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles Zzz
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Posted - 2007.08.05 11:31:00 -
[23]
If the participants are all arranged into fleets, I suspect that the constant polling of everyone's leadership skills and warfare link effects (many of which have to be recalculated and reapplied whenever people die or jump/warp in) has a lot to do with it. This would be bad enough with one fleet; now imagine what it's like when one fleet jumps in on another, and they start shooting each other, and both sides' bonuses are constantly changing
It might help if command bonuses were more resilient; perhaps if they persisted for an hour or so regardless of session changes/deaths, we'd see an improvement. ------ Spreadsheets: Top speed calculation - Halo Implant tanking |
cal nereus
Bounty Hunter - Dark Legion Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.08.05 11:55:00 -
[24]
They're using the game server to simultaneously play an extremely inefficient form of Pong. ---
Grismar.net |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.08.05 12:51:00 -
[25]
Client-side
Like you probably noticed, turning off all effects, zooming out to the max (to take advantage of lower LOD), cleaning out the overview of anything not vital (not only types of objects, but also unused columns) or even "looking the other way" (if at all possible, not likely if zoomed-out to the max) will SERIOUSLY improve framerate in "crowded areas". That's because the EVE client (in its current incarnation) barely uses any of your graphic card's features/acceleration and relies almost exclussively on the CPU to do... well, just about everything. Not to mention the act the core code is antiquated (at best).
However, he client-side problem is quite minor compared to server-side issues.
Server-side
Everything happends server-side. The EVE client is merely (and I paraphrase on of the devs here) "merely a dumb terminal". 1. Each and every ship's mouvement is handled by the server (and collision detection with each one and all other objects like wrecks has to be calculated) 2. Each weapon fired has to be computed. Do you have any idea just how many calculations and querries a SINGLE turret shot takes ? You need position and heading of both ships to determine transversal and distance, you need to load wepon stats, modify by pilot skills and other ship fitings, adjust for enemy or friendly remote effects. Oh, and of course, when it hits, you have to calculate the actual damage dealt, so you have to calc target ship's resists, which are again a function of ship fiting, player skill and remote friendly effects. And so on and so forth. 3. Every drone AI is handled by the server, and for most intents and purposes, a DRONE is almost as CPU intensive as a ship with a single gun 4. All missiles moving through space (thankfully, not many use missiles in larger fleet engagements). 5. All ship stats need to be continuously updated (AFAIK, once or twice per second for each ship) : cap recharge, armor repair and so on and so forth (all of which have to take fiting and relevant pilot skills into account). 6. Locked targets info : shield/armor/hull levels. 7. ALL PLAYERS need to receive "update packages", which are calculated as being the smallest possible ones, so you have to make comparisons between "last packet sent" and "current packet to send", and only send the DIFFERENCES (ship/drone/missile changing speed amount or vector, your own changed ship stats, VISUAL TRAILS for all guns fired by all people in the grid, new ships arriving or turning into wrecks, etc).
While most of the above are linear with player numbers, the first and the last one are not... and cause a huge increase in CPU usage with each additional entity present (ship, drone, missile or weapon fired). And this... this is just scratching the surface.
_
Complaint vs whine | Char creation guide | Stacknerfs explained |
MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2007.08.05 12:58:00 -
[26]
well, are you talking about lag, where you can see everything fine with a desnt FPS but nothing is working? or are you talking about about clinet lag where everything is like ugh ugh must render.
it's not server side if it's the second one. it's the act that EvE doesn't use your GPU for some unknown reason/the tech is 7 years old. ----------------------------------- I'm working my way through college target CCP
Quote: CCP posted a new dev blog, they are going to bring Nos in line with.....well....logic
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Curzon Dax
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2007.08.05 12:59:00 -
[27]
This thread gets my vote for..
MOST IMPORTANT THREAD OF 2007
/signed.
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General Apocalypse
Amarr The Merchant Marines
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Posted - 2007.08.05 13:03:00 -
[28]
It's used to power up the blue robots
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Jim McGregor
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Posted - 2007.08.05 13:10:00 -
[29]
Nobody can be... told, what the matrix is. ---
Originally by: CCP Wrangler You're not supposed to feel like you're logging in to a happy, happy, fluffy, fluffy lala land filled with fun and adventures, thats what hello kitty online is for.
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w0rmy
M. Corp M. PIRE
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Posted - 2007.08.05 13:30:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Dark Shikari
2. What, roughly, percentage-wise, is the CPU used for?
c) Something else?
Keeping the client in Sync
Originally by: CCP Oveur I'm very sorry w0rmy, I beg your forgiveness.
Originally by: Dianabolic I was never sworn to secrecy, w0rmy, sorry to dissappoint you.
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