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Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2007.10.17 09:25:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Vitrael Insurance payout is dynamic based on ship market prices. Ship prices are not fixed.
Mineral prices are therefore by your argument not fixed.
However mineral prices are in fact fixed due to seeded item refining rates, although the chief economist is on that.
Please do your research next time.
Insurance payouts are based on the old NPC mineral prices and do not change.
For the record, those prices are:
Tritanium - 1 ISK Pyerite - 4 ISK Mexallon - 16 ISK Isogen - 64 ISK Noxcium - 256 ISK Zydrine - 1024 ISK Megacyte - 4096 ISK
To calculate the actual payout received add up the total NPC cost of the minerals required to build the ship, multiply by the % grade of insurance, and then add the premium you paid for the policy.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
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Jenny Spitfire
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.10.17 09:33:00 -
[32]
Remove price caps and it is a free economy. Invention should have been made to include the T2 item to be invented in the oven.
There is no free economy in this game. --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria!
Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon.
Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game. |
cal nereus
Bounty Hunter - Dark Legion Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2007.10.17 09:48:00 -
[33]
Edited by: cal nereus on 17/10/2007 09:48:00 There's no such thing as a perfectly free market in the real world. Why should there be in New Eden? ---
Join BH-DL |
Death Kill
Caldari direkte
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Posted - 2007.10.17 09:48:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Vitrael Insurance payout is dynamic based on ship market prices
I bet hac's have a nice innsurance payout?
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Jaketh Ivanes
Amarr Do Or Die And Live Or Try
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Posted - 2007.10.17 10:16:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Alvin Elte
first the price of ships. ship prices are fixed because of insurance. the difference between platinum payout and platinum cost is the max ship price. at any price higher than this people would just buy ships and blow them up to claim insurance.
First off, I believe you got it backwards in your statement here. If the price on Battleships rices, people won't buy them to blow them up. On the other hand, if the price on BS's gets lower than the difference, then people will buy them to blow up. This will generate a very high demand on BS's, and the price will rise. So, insurance is not causing a fixed price but is mearly a market manipulator.
Quote:
ship price - fixed
then come minerals. mineral prices are fixed too because you can build ships with them and because ship prices are fixed, mineral prices are fixed too.
Cool argument. "The sky is blue, so you are a witch". Very medival Quote:
so are ore prices, low end reprocessable modules (think passive targeter, a mod with a page full of buy orders eventhough no one uses it).
Again, a market manipulator. Powerful, yes. Quote:
so whats left??? high end mod i.e. t2+
and what is the result of this? estamels invul field sells for 10 BILLION!!
Supply and demand. Estamel Invu field is not sold for 10 bill because tier 1 battleships cost 60 mill, but because its a very rare highly demanded module.
Quote:
omfg. a mod is worth like 10 carriers??????????
so free market? schmee market more like
You are grasping for straws. Yes, the eve market is not 100% free, but it is certainly not fixed either.
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Alvin Elte
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Posted - 2007.10.17 10:24:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Gnulpie Edited by: Gnulpie on 17/10/2007 07:25:06 Since Eve has no government, no government can interfer with the regulation of costs, supply and demand.
Therefore the market is per definitionem a free one.
First step to set up a proper discussion about markets would be to adjust the definition that it covers virtual realities also. Ask our good market doctor for more info about that.
Next time you better don't pick up a random definition which just has the word 'free market' on it and throw it around just as you want. You at least need to see if the definition fits the case - which it doesn't here.
So...fail.
And don't come with the argument 'ccp is government, they chose to install an insurance and their payout.' Yes, they did. But also they did set up the building costs and mineral needs of ships. They also set up the mineral distribution in the universe. They also set up the time you need to mine a certain amount etc. etc. So if you say CCP = government you will never ever have a free market, even if they get rid of the insurance. Why? Because CCP interfers all the time with the game, developing new stuff and so on.
As I said: come up with a suitable definition first, then serious talk can begin. Otherwise, troll elsewhere.
Edit: spelling
are you ******** CCP is the government so if you are so stupid as to not understand the simplest of concept then get the **** out you ******** money. dont dispute me with your sub-legible argument.
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Jobby
Minmatar UNITED STAR SYNDICATE
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Posted - 2007.10.17 11:14:00 -
[37]
/me looks for the point.
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Tarminic
Black Flame Industries
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Posted - 2007.10.17 11:35:00 -
[38]
Originally by: SoftRevolution Tarminic?
Not me this time. ---------------- Tarminic - 29 million SP in Forum Warfare Originally by: CCP Wrangler Booooo!!! Tarminic sux!!!
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Digital Anarchist
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.10.17 11:42:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Grapez I'll also take issue with your wiki definition:
Originally by: teh wiki ...determined generally by the supply and demand law with no government interference in the regulation...
It could be argued that monopolies or cartels arise from, and threated, the free market, and the only realistic impediments to them are social (read: government) resistance. I would argue that a blanket statement like, "free markets are by definition free of any governmental influence" is false.
Then (by your definition) a "free market" is a market that's unimpeded by anything? Then again, that does not exist.
A "free market" is just an environment where people are free to sell and buy without coercion. It is the process by which people engage in voluntary trade. Where you have coercion, you have no free market. Where you have voluntary trade, you have a market (free to the extent of which it's voluntary). Government is, by definition, a coercive organization, therefore government has nothing to do with the free market.
I prefer the latter approach because it avoids the traps and paradoxes of perfect competition. Or... the instance where we define "free" by "perfect".
------------------------ This space for rent |
Digital Anarchist
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.10.17 11:52:00 -
[40]
And yes, it would be nicer if eve scrapped the npc market altogether. But it would be too much effort to balance it out at this point.
Also problematic for the game's free-market credentials are the npc money rewards. A free market economy would tend to have a hard money system (either constant supply, or slow-growing supply as a consequence of commodity-backing). Eve creates a lot of new money and to avoid inflation, money sinks are needed.
Otherwise, I would take things like sovereignty/pos warfare as being artificial, but that's more a mechanics than economics problem.
------------------------ This space for rent |
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Sixtina KL
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Posted - 2007.10.17 11:55:00 -
[41]
Obvious troll is obvious! __________________________________
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Matthew
Caldari BloodStar Technologies
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Posted - 2007.10.17 12:26:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Alvin Elte now is the price on items in EvE truly unfixed?
of course its not. and I will show you why.
Yes, there are certain limits to the market generated by other game mechanics. However, these only limit the "free-ness" of the market should the market enter an area where they apply.
It's possible to find a limiting factor on pretty much any market, no-matter how "free" it may be. An extreme (and admittedly silly example): there is a limit to how high food prices would go before all the customers died from starvation and the market ceased to exist. Similarly, there is an absolute limit to the supply of food defined by the amount of cultivatable land in the world. There's an absolute limit to demand based on how much people can eat (again with the whole killing off your customers caveat).
It is impossible to construct an absolutely free market, there are always going to be constraints. The aim of a "free market" is really to ensure that these contstraints are sufficiently far away from the actual market position that they are not relevant to the operating of the market.
Now, some of the Eve market constraints have come into play before, and others are a bit close for comfort. However, there have already been moves to address these, and more appear to be on the way.
There's also the consideration that a drastic market move that pushes a market into one of these constraints may well indicate a genuine game design problem with an area of the game. While changes shouldn't be made purely to "correct" a market, the market is a very good indicator of when things are genuinely going wrong with a game mechanic. Given that, as long as the constraint is outside these "game-is-broken" extremes, they shouldn't be a great concern anyway.
Originally by: Alvin Elte low end reprocessable modules (think passive targeter, a mod with a page full of buy orders eventhough no one uses it).
People do use passive targeters, just not for the purpose they're intended for. The activity on passive targeters is in no way an example of market constraints, it's an example of a product with an alternative use (mineral compression in this case).
The ability to reprocess modules actually enhances the free market, as it enables goods to be subsitutes for each other (via the reprocess and manufacture route), at least where manufacturing ability is not itself constrained.
Originally by: Alvin Elte and what is the result of this? estamels invul field sells for 10 BILLION!!
omfg. a mod is worth like 10 carriers??????????
This is due to a combination of restricted supply, lack of substitute goods, and several different customer sections, not because the market is rigged.
1 billion Invul field II modules are not a good subsitute for 1 estamels invul field when fitting your ship, because you do not have a billion mid slots. Because of this these modules will always attract a price premium above and beyond the raw performance gain it gives.
These mods are going to be at the top of every mothership and titan pilot's shopping lists. While there are relatively few such pilots, the restricted supply of these modules means that they can suck up a significant portion of that supply. Module prices that look ridiculous for any other ship suddenly make perfect sense when you start thinking about a fitting budget commensurate to the value of those ships. ------- There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines. |
Sheriff Jones
Amarr Please Enter Password
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Posted - 2007.10.17 12:49:00 -
[43]
Free market= you can buy and sell stuff for free!
Yes, EVE fails in this
My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit. |
Sharupak
Minmatar Knights Of the Black Sun Rule of Three
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Posted - 2007.10.17 13:47:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Alvin Elte EvE's one selling point is that it has an entirely player driven FREE market.
definition - A free market is a market where prices of goods and services are arranged completely by the mutual non-coerced consent of sellers and buyers, determined generally by the supply and demand law with no government interference in the regulation of costs, supply and demand. *wikipedia
now is the price on items in EvE truly unfixed?
of course its not. and I will show you why.
first the price of ships. ship prices are fixed because of insurance. the difference between platinum payout and platinum cost is the max ship price. at any price higher than this people would just buy ships and blow them up to claim insurance.
ship price - fixed
then come minerals. mineral prices are fixed too because you can build ships with them and because ship prices are fixed, mineral prices are fixed too.
so are ore prices, low end reprocessable modules (think passive targeter, a mod with a page full of buy orders eventhough no one uses it).
so whats left??? high end mod i.e. t2+
and what is the result of this? estamels invul field sells for 10 BILLION!!
omfg. a mod is worth like 10 carriers??????????
so free market? schmee market more like
Umm no..
Ship prices are tied to the cost of ore and bpos needed to make them. There is a huge difference between buying stuff in Rens and buying stuff in Jita large enough for people to by low there and make the 52 jump round trip to undercut in rens and still make a ton of profit. and that is just ships. Check out the difference in POS fuels sometime and other items that have no insurance what so ever. _______________________________________________ RuntimeError: ChainEvent is blocking by design, but you're block trapped. You have'll have to find some alternative means to do Your Thing, dude. |
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