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Taikun
Gallente Serenity Prime Frontal Impact
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Posted - 2008.01.13 21:28:00 -
[1]
CCP is inept when it comes to coding in game loans. Anyone who has been around for any length of time knows this beyond a shadow of a doubt. If you want a break down just HOW bad these ôdevelopersö actually are when it comes to the loan system check out my writeup on the subject.
Soà what is CCPs solution?
Is it to FIX the crappy interface and make loans a viable and vibrant part of this game?
Of course not. That would involved hard work and applied grey matter. Instead they abdicate their responsibilities and let the customer base pick up the slack by creating elaborate æout of gameÆ financial structures such as EBank for example.
I was among the FIRST to state that this is a wonderful development for the game. I would MUCH rather have a group of independent amateurs get together and program such things than leave the development in the hands of æprovenÆ poor developers at CCP. (Who would just slap a quick fix bandaid on the loan system and then forget about it for another 3 years without actually delivering something powerful and revolutionary.)
However, like most things, these independent loan operators come at a cost to the customer base.
At the moment, all loans are undergoing a sickening trend of being pushed towards organised outfits like EBank. Not just by those running EBank, but by members of the market forum in general, and now it seems, by CCP æcommunity representativesÆ.
I believe this presents a grave risk to the game.
These large æBanksÆ are starting to act somewhat like Microsoft who has a stranglehold on the O/S market. If a individual makes a post seeking a loan, they get pounced upon by forum æregularsÆ to go to EBank and stop æcluttering upÆ the market forums with their expressions of interest.
The result? Large institutionalised outfits like EBank are garnering a huge percentage of the loan market to the detriment of solo operators.
So what you ask?
Already there have been several snide and condescending posts made by æmembersÆ of the market forums attacking individuals who are seeking loans. Peer pressure by these forum bullies (they refer to themselves as regulars) are driving most loan business to these big players. This trend is highly uncompetitive, and unhealthy for an open and free loan market.
Who is to say these outfits are legitimate? These outfits are NOT the defacto suppliers of loan in EvE and should not be considered as such no matter how slick they look and operate.
In fact I personally do not do business with these large institutions as I have grave concerns about the character of several individuals who are closely involved with these operations. Some individuals seeking loans may not wish to conduct their business affairs with such shady individuals however are starting to be denied the free choice not to do so. Or worseà not being allowed to question the operations themselves for risk of being labelled as a Troll! When exactly did we all wake up in a EvE world where criticism of operations is now labelled as trolling??
CCP response to all this? You got ità consider providing free advertising and tacit CCP backing by putting up a stickied post advertising their services. It hasnÆt happened yet, but I am stunned to even see it considered by what should be a fair and impartial CCP representative.
<Continued>
A criminal is a person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation. |
Taikun
Gallente Serenity Prime Frontal Impact
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Posted - 2008.01.13 21:29:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Taikun on 13/01/2008 21:35:48 Why is CCP interfering with market dynamics? Why are small loan operators being stifled and denied the right to address those individuals seeking loans by attempting to consolidate all this activity with æbig playersÆ? What is their motive?
CCP is no stranger to rogue employees acting for their personal interests. Every time a CCP representatives attempts to interfere with the free flow of market forces and information makes my hairs go up on the back of my neck. I simply start to wonder why and what motivates CCP to change their æhands offÆ market philosophy and to suddenly interject their regulatory hand in an open economy. I just pray it is a benign and misguided attempt on their behalf for æimprovementÆ rather than a more sinister level of manipulation.
There is another level of risk presented by a consolidated loan market centred on independent operators. What happens when they decide to rip you off?
Note that I said æWHENÆ and not if. We all know that it is only a matter of time before another ôEve Investment Bankö rears its ugly head in this game.
So, what has CCP done to protect the player base from this type of grandiose level of scam? Wellà. Nothing of course.
With a broken in-game loan system and tacit support for larger loan operators, I forecast the state of loans in EVE will be dire for a long time to come.
Nevertheless, anyone like me who has provided loans to others in the past should be concerned about this latest trend of loan consolidation. I personally have provided 10Æs of billions in loans with some being sourced through these market forums themselves. Heck, I even provided a billion ISK loan to Ricdic the founder of EBank himself!
If large loan institutions wish to operate, that is fine. Let them operate on the same level playing field as everyone else. Size should not equal free advertising, nor protection from independent scrutiny by CCP. In fact, larger loan players should come under more, not less scrutiny due to their disproportionate level of impact on the player base should they decide to go rouge.
Like any IPO, we the player base have a right to free discourse on loans, those who seek them, and the outfits that offer their services. To deny us this by the marginalising of posts critical of the existing models, loan outfits or the characters of those operating them is cartel creation, and ultimately damaging to the entire economy.
Last time I looked, these forums were to foster trade and allow the meeting of buyers and suppliers to discuss the market and its forces. The current direction of loans in these forums is going the WRONG way and mark my wordsà it is setting the community up for another EPIC fraud.
I see the writing on the wall, hopefully you now do as well.
<Continued>
A criminal is a person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation. |
Taikun
Gallente Serenity Prime Frontal Impact
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Posted - 2008.01.13 21:30:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Taikun on 13/01/2008 21:31:17 Key points to take away from all of this.
-CCPs failure to provide a complete, accurate interface for loans has stifled the growth in this important segment of the economy. -Growth of independent large banks is pushing out the independent loan players. -Underground æpressureÆ by self proclaimed forums ægurusÆ are using peer pressure to push all loans to larger players. -CCP seems to be backing larger players to compensate for failed in-game loan coding. -Posts that are critical of the developing loan market, those operators in it and the risks associated with it are considered æanti-competitiveÆ and moderated. -The market is ripe for another epic scam like ôEve Investment Bankö to emerge.
Taikun
P.S. This post is a clearly intended as a discussion of the (loan) market, how it works and to share my own personal insights with members of this community. To claim it to be otherwise would be the height of misrepresentation.
A criminal is a person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation. |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.01.13 21:51:00 -
[4]
While your concern might be legitimate to some degree, the (rather hostile) way you chose to present your problem, combined with a somewhat doubtful (alarmist, to use a mild word) attitude in the past makes it a bit difficult to swallow without a lot more thorough proof.
I'm not saying I don't believe you, I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm simply saying I would require a lot more "hard proof" before I would even consider backing your position.
For starters, how about you link to 5-10 (relatively) recent threads of each of the following:
* "asking for loans" where those people were PRESSURED into using ebank somehow (simply having ebank representatives as the only ones that offered service is not pressure ; somebody else trying and others saying "better use ebank instead" would be acceptable)
* "offering loans" threads that were closed or derailed because ebank or ebank supporters started posting
After (or, IF) you can do that, we can continue talking. Until then, I have no other choice as to consider it just another "blowing it out of proportion" thread. Sorry.
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Prokonsul Piotrus
Minmatar Astral Light of Nature
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Posted - 2008.01.13 21:54:00 -
[5]
Thanks, that explains why I have yet to see an ingame loan.
I wonder why CCP pays so little attention to this side of the game (finances). The activity on this board, and impressive amount of guides/softs created by various people (kudos to you all) should tell them that there is much demand for doing it 'officially' in EVE. -- One day, we will return to the planets... please, CCP? :)
EVE-Wiki - share your knowledge in one place. |
Daeva Vios
Ares Arms and Modules LLC
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Posted - 2008.01.13 21:56:00 -
[6]
You seem to miss the most obvious solution to all of this. Since you are wary of the big three and make not-so-veiled attempts to besmirch the reputations they have attained, why not compete with them?
You are clearly capable of posting often and at length about a subject, so why not do so in order to advertise your own loan service?
Despite your apparent beliefs to the contrary, the big three are only given their positions because they exist to have those positions. There is ample room for a big fourth. Why not claim this position for yourself? After all, who would you trust to run a loan operation better than yourself?
Instead of fighting the system, work with it to affect change. You'll be seen as less of a troll then, more of an agent for progress.
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Fenderson
Einherjar Rising Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2008.01.13 22:00:00 -
[7]
i think ccp is on your side. there have been a few times that Devs have mentioned an intention to expand banking/loans within game mechanics.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler Oh dear, how about we all calm down a bit instead?
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Taikun
Gallente Serenity Prime Frontal Impact
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Posted - 2008.01.13 22:06:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Akita T While your concern might be legitimate to some degree, the (rather hostile) way you chose to present your problem, combined with a somewhat doubtful (alarmist, to use a mild word) attitude in the past makes it a bit difficult to swallow without a lot more thorough proof.
I reject your suggestion of my hostility. Please do not confuse critical examination with hard truths exposed as hostility.
However I would present the following links as CCP changing position and now Tacit approval towards larger loan operators.
http://www.eve-search.com/thread/680604
Originally by: "Mitnal" Locked There are enough e-bank threads without the need for another advert for them. Mitnal, Community Representative
Later changed to:
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=680604
Originally by: "Mitnal" Will add to essential thread list if enough services can be provided. Please stay on-topic. Mitnal, Community Representative
I consider that to be tacit approval from CCP for providing additional advertising for EBank type operations.
You are welcome to interpret such developments in your own mind and decide their relevence. But events have occured, and there is a larger play in the loan market whoc has changed the face of EvE forever.
Taikun
A criminal is a person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation. |
Taikun
Gallente Serenity Prime Frontal Impact
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Posted - 2008.01.13 22:11:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Daeva Vios Instead of fighting the system, work with it to affect change. You'll be seen as less of a troll then, more of an agent for progress.
Originally by: Taikun Or worseà not being allowed to question the operations themselves for risk of being labelled as a Troll! When exactly did we all wake up in a EvE world where criticism of operations is now labelled as trolling??
Critisim, discussion and observations about the greater EvE economy is not trolling. In fact, it is what this forum is actually for.
Taikun
A criminal is a person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation. |
Daeva Vios
Ares Arms and Modules LLC
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Posted - 2008.01.13 22:16:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Daeva Vios on 13/01/2008 22:15:52 I wasn't calling you a troll, Taikun. I was referring to your general reputation in this forum as a result of nearly all of your previous threads. I was offering a helpful suggestion.
You took this suggestion, ignored it, and tried to make it seem like I was labeling you. I don't have to, Taikun, you do it to yourself.
I was trying to be nice to you and provide you with options that you may not have personally considered. I see that you're completely unwilling to consider advice and only seek to be contrary and cause trouble. My mistake.
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Taikun
Gallente Serenity Prime Frontal Impact
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Posted - 2008.01.13 22:27:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Taikun on 13/01/2008 22:31:19
Originally by: Daeva Vios I was trying to be nice to you and provide you with options that you may not have personally considered. I see that you're completely unwilling to consider advice and only seek to be contrary and cause trouble. My mistake.
What makes you this I disregarded it?
Why should I open another bank when I believe that it is CCPs responsibility to actually make a loan interface that is functional, easy and powerful? Loans in MY view should be as easy to obtain as items via the contract system. There shouold be a OPEN competition and in-game support to obtain the best deal available for terms that suit you, not just what the big players decide to offer.
Why should I open a bank with all the trappings of EBank when I do not have any problem with EBank type operations perse? I have doubts about some individuals involved with them and resent CCP supporting making these operations the defacto loan solution for EvE as I feel it will be detrimental to the greater eve community.
I have issue with the lack of open scrutiny and ability to question the motives of said operations. Coupled with tacit approval from CCP for larger operations to compensate for their failed interface design. That is what concerns me.
What would me 'competeting' with EBank do to address my concerns in the directon loans are going in EvE. In fact, my competeing would do nothing more than ADD to the current decline in my view.
No Daeva Vios, i didnt 'ignore' your post or advice. I simply didn't respond to irrelevent points you brought forward. Now that I have pointed them out for you, do you feel better?
Taikun
A criminal is a person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation. |
Treelox
Amarr Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party
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Posted - 2008.01.13 22:31:00 -
[12]
You know it was so much nicer around here when you were on vacation with the wife and kids. Would you be so kind as to go back on vacation now, indefinetly.
k, thx
--- Dear Mod,
Yes it was worth it. --
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SiJira
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Posted - 2008.01.13 22:33:00 -
[13]
it was changed because that thread was made to help newbies that actually read stickies - that information was missing from them if you made this thread just because of that post by ccp mitnal then you really took it the wrong way Trashed sig, Shark was here |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.01.13 22:36:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Taikun However I would present the following links as CCP changing position and now Tacit approval towards larger loan operators : Linkage You are welcome to interpret such developments in your own mind and decide their relevence. But events have occured, and there is a larger play in the loan market which has changed the face of EvE forever.
The first formulation was simply a knee-jerk reaction of a mod saying something to the extent of "we all know ebank, screw it, we don't need advertisments for them", locking the thread, then changing his mind, opening it up again, and asking for any (other) people that DO offer loans to step up and get themselves listed, even offering to add the thread to the list of "essential threads" in the sticky.
No offense, but I think you have a reading comprehension issue. That thread just said the exact opposite of what you are trying to argue that you're afraid it might happend.
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Taikun
Gallente Serenity Prime Frontal Impact
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Posted - 2008.01.13 22:37:00 -
[15]
Originally by: SiJira it was changed because that thread was made to help newbies that actually read stickies - that information was missing from them if you made this thread just because of that post by ccp mitnal then you really took it the wrong way
The original thread was actually abusive towards those posting requests for loans. However it was quickly edited by the OP before CCP got involved and moderated it to a more sticky friendly point of view.
Taikun
A criminal is a person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation. |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.01.13 22:47:00 -
[16]
Are we talking about the same thread here ? The one linked in my quote above ?
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Taikun
Gallente Serenity Prime Frontal Impact
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Posted - 2008.01.13 22:48:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Akita T That thread just said the exact opposite of what you are trying to argue that you're afraid it might happend.
I am sorry, I respectfully disagree.
I am quite certain that individuals wishing to offer loans can not compete with multibillion isk operations. To pretend that any meaningful level of competition would occur in that sticky thread is wishful thinking at best.
Trust me on this as someone who spent over 10 years in the banking system. Scale on loans is where the money is at. Independents will not be able to compete, period.
So where does that leave us?
Due to the risks associated with external scams and the VOLUME of business associated with large loan operations, I do not feel CCP should be providing tacit support and sticky threads to compensate for their failed in game loan system.
Instead, they should fix it, but I am not going to hold my breath.
Taikun
A criminal is a person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation. |
Shadarle
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Posted - 2008.01.13 22:57:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Taikun The original thread was actually abusive towards those posting requests for loans. However it was quickly edited by the OP before CCP got involved and moderated it to a more sticky friendly point of view.
It was never hostile to anyone. I know because I posted it. I was quite angry when CCP locked the thread as it was anything but an E-Bank advert. It was meant as help for all the people seeking loans.
I edited the post to include BMBE very quickly after Ray's post.
I am glad it was unlocked as it was meant as a community tool.
I would ask you quit engaging in hostile posts, making false accusations, and otherwise negative behaviors Taikun. If you are going to make statements try to make accurate ones.
And for proof that Taikun is indeed making his claims up, read the original post:
Eve-Search Linky
Tanking Setups Compared
Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.01.13 23:05:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Akita T on 13/01/2008 23:05:40
The only way to "fix" the loan system in-game would be to remove it. I mean that, seriously. There is no possible exploit-free system for loans in EVE that would work solely from the "loans" contract system.
First off, the only way to ensure somebody pays back his loan is either to have him lock up the ISK you loan to him in an escrow fund he can't use, or provide a collateral you can easily liquidate for the owed ISK. The first alternative is, at best, useless ; the second alternative is more or less equivalent to selling the collateral and purchasing it back later on... and it certainly can't be automated on the LENDER side.
The only "somewhat" acceptable loan system in EVE would look like this: * person ASKING for a loan puts up an item as collateral in an "asking for loan" contract * he can then select 4 things, a minimum loan perioad (fixed), and 3 variables : maximum loan period, loan amount and loan rate * people BID/BUYOUT on his collateral on whatever variables he has listed (if somebody takes "max" in all three fields, loan is automatically granted) * loan can only be "failed" by the one granting the loan AFTER the "minimum" period has passed * when attempting to "default" on a loan after the minimum period but not maximum period (bar last 3 days), the one that took the loan gets a WARNING that the one that gave him the loan needs the money back ; he has 20% of remaining time or 3 days (whichever's longer) to "max loan time" * one can not force a "loan defaulting" in the last 3 days before "max time" * after "max time" has passed and loan is not paid back, the loaner can at any time IMMEDIATELY "default" the loan (or keep it going indefinetely)
Basically, it's not a loan system, it's a pawn shop system. A genuine, fully automated loan system can't possibly work in EVE. It would simply be way too exploitable.
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2008.01.13 23:10:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Akita T Edited by: Akita T on 13/01/2008 23:05:40
The only way to "fix" the loan system in-game would be to remove it. I mean that, seriously. There is no possible exploit-free system for loans in EVE that would work solely from the "loans" contract system.
First off, the only way to ensure somebody pays back his loan is either to have him lock up the ISK you loan to him in an escrow fund he can't use, or provide a collateral you can easily liquidate for the owed ISK. The first alternative is, at best, useless ; the second alternative is more or less equivalent to selling the collateral and purchasing it back later on... and it certainly can't be automated on the LENDER side.
The only "somewhat" acceptable loan system in EVE would look like this: * person ASKING for a loan puts up an item as collateral in an "asking for loan" contract * he can then select 4 things, a minimum loan perioad (fixed), and 3 variables : maximum loan period, loan amount and loan rate * people BID/BUYOUT on his collateral on whatever variables he has listed (if somebody takes "max" in all three fields, loan is automatically granted) * loan can only be "failed" by the one granting the loan AFTER the "minimum" period has passed * when attempting to "default" on a loan after the minimum period but not maximum period (bar last 3 days), the one that took the loan gets a WARNING that the one that gave him the loan needs the money back ; he has 20% of remaining time or 3 days (whichever's longer) to "max loan time" * one can not force a "loan defaulting" in the last 3 days before "max time" * after "max time" has passed and loan is not paid back, the loaner can at any time IMMEDIATELY "default" the loan (or keep it going indefinetely)
Basically, it's not a loan system, it's a pawn shop system. A genuine, fully automated loan system can't possibly work in EVE. It would simply be way too exploitable.
Unfortunately I agree.
Tanking Setups Compared
Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained |
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Benvie
Benvie Enterprises
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Posted - 2008.01.13 23:16:00 -
[21]
A helpful tool that CCP could provide is making a way to use items you own as collateral, while allowing you to still utilize the item. If you default on the loan, ownership could be transferred. I can think of a number of loopholes in this, but it's a start and would be very useful.
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Daeva Vios
Ares Arms and Modules LLC
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Posted - 2008.01.13 23:23:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Daeva Vios on 13/01/2008 23:24:09 Edited by: Daeva Vios on 13/01/2008 23:23:15 Open competition of the sort you seem to be suggesting really does not exist anywhere. Right now what is available is an EVE-compatible variation on what's available in the real world: You approach a loan institution and ask for a loan, they obtain credit scores and references (absent in EVE), they note collateral or co-signers (the latter absent in EVE due to lack of enforcement), they provide you with a list of durations and interest rates based on your credit score, and if you do not agree with the rates you go to another bank and begin again.
That's the system as it exists in EVE. That is open competition in the loan market.
If you wish to improve that competition in favor of the individual seeking the loan, the only true way to do so is to provide competitive service. As noted by Akita, the only feasible in-game supported loan system would be a pawn system, not better than what we have now in any way.
Despite your inability to post without hostility, I believe this is a good discussion to have. Wading through baseless accusations and directionless anger is tedious, but it does provide reasonably suitable groundwork for what is, ultimately, a relevant point. I just wish you could do so without being so spiteful.
Edit: Benvie's suggestion is a good one I think but it would take a lot of work. He posted while I was writing.
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CCP Saint
C C P
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Posted - 2008.01.13 23:28:00 -
[23]
*Locked* Ranting is not permitted on the forums. Saint Community Representative EVE Online, CCP Games Email/Netfang |
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