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Skippermonkey
Tactical Knightmare
40
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Posted - 2011.09.13 15:28:00 -
[31] - Quote
Duchess Starbuckington wrote:Quote:which is EXACTLY the current state of the EAS right now. No it's not. An equivilent of the combat recons would have significant offensive abilities on top of their EWAR.
they have comparable 'offensive capabilities' in regards to their stable mates
lachesis and deimos for example
keres and ishkur for example
see what i did there?
even the combat recons arent great at offensive capabilities when you compare them to the more attacking HACs
also, maybe your comment is a critique on the current state of EAS ships, and maybe afterall they ARE in need of a rebalance
their design predates many game changes that have changed the way we all play the game afterall. |
Skippermonkey
Tactical Knightmare
40
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Posted - 2011.09.13 15:35:00 -
[32] - Quote
wth, double post?
anyway....
opinions from anyone other than the 'duchess' would be more welcomed |
Duchess Starbuckington
Starbuckington Manor
2
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Posted - 2011.09.13 15:43:00 -
[33] - Quote
Umm, what exactly are you trying to say here? That the Combat recon-HAC gap is equivilent to the EAF-AF gap? Because that's a stupid comparison to make. Combat recons are capable damage dealers on top of their EWAR - EAFs are not. This situation is perfectly fine, EAFs have one job and with a few simple tweaks can excell at it rather than be merely workable (and by no means unusably bad).
Splitting EAFs into combat and force variants is pure stupidity, and would overpower both types. |
Skippermonkey
Tactical Knightmare
40
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Posted - 2011.09.13 15:47:00 -
[34] - Quote
Duchess Starbuckington wrote: Splitting EAFs into combat and force variants is pure stupidity, and would overpower both types.
You are the person bringing up the offensive capability
but anyway, how does rebalancing the current EAS ships, adding the 'combat' monicker suddenly make them overpowered? |
Duchess Starbuckington
Starbuckington Manor
2
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Posted - 2011.09.13 15:54:00 -
[35] - Quote
Quote: but anyway, how does rebalancing the current EAS ships, adding the 'combat' monicker suddenly make them overpowered?
Oh dear, it seems you need the simple words after all.
Ok, let's say this was done - there are now combat EAFs and covops EAFs. This implies that the combat EAFs have, you know, actual combat ability. This promptly breaks frigate balance worse than the Dramiel and Daredevil combined.
If combat EAFs are basically what we have now, then they are instantly worthless as there's no reason to fly them over the covops variant.
Speaking of the covops variant - these do one of two things: tackle (which any bomber or regular covops could do) or ECM - and if you think EVE needs more cloaky ECM ships then I'm devoutly thankful you're not a dev.
Quote:but a kitsune couldnt kill another frigate? Of course it can, but there are much better ships to do so. Throw some combat bonuses on the Kitsune on the other hand and it now has the combination of DPS and seriously powerful EWAR all in one fit. Joy. |
Skippermonkey
Tactical Knightmare
40
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Posted - 2011.09.13 15:56:00 -
[36] - Quote
Duchess Starbuckington wrote:If combat EAFs are basically what we have now, then they are instantly worthless as there's no reason to fly them over the covops variant.
Its true that more falcons are flown than rooks, but i'd hardly say the Rook was worthless
Duchess Starbuckington wrote:Of course it can, but there are much better ships to do so. Throw some combat bonuses on the Kitsune on the other hand and it now has the combination of DPS and seriously powerful EWAR all in one fit. Joy.
i'm with you on the second comment, i'd like to see a little more 'combat sturdyness' built into the 'combat EAS' if they were ever rethought and rebalanced.
you know... i dont think we are as far apart in thinking as you want to believe.
Basically the vibe im getting from you is you fear a cloaky EAS will obsolete the non-cloaky version, but we see enough Curses, for example, to see that this doesnt have to be the case. |
Duchess Starbuckington
Starbuckington Manor
2
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Posted - 2011.09.13 16:02:00 -
[37] - Quote
Quote:Its true that more falcons are flown than rooks, but i'd hardly say the Rook was worthless
Sigh. I'm really not sure I can dumb this down any further for you but I'll give it a try: FALCON = GOOD EWAR. BAD DPS. CLOAKY. ROOK = GOOD EWAR. GOOD DPS
THEORETICAL COVOPS KITSUNE = GOOD EWAR. BAD DPS. CLOAKY. CURRENT KITSUNE = GOOD EWAR, VIRTUALLY NO DPS.
The Rook offers DPS that the Falcon doesn't - the Kitsune offers no such thing over the theoretical covops variant, thus making it completely obsolete.
But if you buff the Kitsune's combat abilities - oh look, we have good DPS perma-jamming respectably fast frigates running round everywhere. Kitsune becomes the new Dramiel. |
Skippermonkey
Tactical Knightmare
40
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Posted - 2011.09.13 16:07:00 -
[38] - Quote
Duchess Starbuckington wrote: Sigh. I'm really not sure I can dumb this down any further for you but I'll give it a try: FALCON = GOOD EWAR. BAD DPS. CLOAKY. ROOK = GOOD EWAR. GOOD DPS
THEORETICAL COVOPS KITSUNE = GOOD EWAR. BAD DPS. CLOAKY. CURRENT KITSUNE = GOOD EWAR, VIRTUALLY NO DPS.
The Rook offers DPS that the Falcon doesn't - the Kitsune offers no such thing over the theoretical covops variant, thus making it completely obsolete.
But if you buff the Kitsune's combat abilities - oh look, we have good DPS perma-jamming respectably fast frigates running round everywhere. Kitsune becomes the new Dramiel.
you ignore range of modules like its a negligible factor
also, being in a Recon or or an EAS, dps is never your prime concern.... you have actually PILOTED both havent you right? to have such a burning passion on the subject?
also, you flip flop between wanting to buff EAS ships and not wanting to buff them faster than i can type, make up your damn mind! |
Rek Seven
Zandathorn Industries
3
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Posted - 2011.09.13 16:13:00 -
[39] - Quote
Skippermonkey wrote:Duchess Starbuckington wrote:Which fill what nich+¬, precisely? funny you say that , because with a whole minute of your time, you would find out that the 'combat' tag refers to the NON CLOAKY version of the recon. which is EXACTLY the current state of the EAS right now. what i am lobbying for is the 'force' version to be added to the lineup ..bet you feel clever now huh? Rek Seven wrote: Maybe if they bring out T3 frigates you could make that kind of ship but i think what you are suggesting would render force recon ships useless.
I would be in favour of buffing their current abilities though.
tbh, if they release t3 frigates, they would make all other frigate types obsolete imo moving on though, to put your comment in perspective have Interdictors rendered HIC's useless? - (maybe this isnt the best comparison, but you get the idea) have Assault Ships rendered HAC's useless? we all know in both cases the answer is no, with sensible balancing of module strength, slot layout, effective range, etc, they can be released without impacting on the effectiveness of their 'big brother' recons. and like i have said before, the cloaky variants always get less in the way of range and 'tank' than the non cloaky variants, as we can plainly see in the recons themselves. I believe there is a definite space for this new 'force' EAS ship to live in
Have you flown a recon ship before? They don't do amazing dps so it's main use is the e-war capabilities.
If you've ever flown a force recon against another force recon then you would know that it's all about who gets the first lock. A cloaky e-war ship would beat a cloaky e-war cruiser 90% of the time!
tbh i'm just humoring you mate. i appreciate that you have shared your ideas but i think it's clear to everyone but you that this new frig will not happen.
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Duchess Starbuckington
Starbuckington Manor
2
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Posted - 2011.09.13 16:13:00 -
[40] - Quote
Quote:you have actually PILOTED both havent you right I have, as it happens (and the Kitsune for that matter.) And the only recons I can't/don't fly are the Gallente ones.
Quote:also, you flip flop between wanting to buff EAS ships and not wanting to buff them faster than i can type, make up your damn mind! Please learn to read. I've quite clearly stated, repeatedly, that a few minor tweaks are all the EAF class needs to bring them up from "workable" to "excellent". (Or in the case of the Hyena - meh to excellent.
What I am against is buffing their combat abilities, or adding covops cloaks onto them. Both of those are balance nightmares, especially considering a simpler solution exists. |
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