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NightmareX
Quam Singulari Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.05.04 15:04:00 -
[1]
Hello.
This topic will be about petition to get the Logserver changed or ban BACON. Or at least try.
Before i start, this topic should ONLY be for those who agree with me and i will only see replys with peoples that have a reason why CCP should change Logserver or ban BACON, because just saying signed can be taken as spam.
Discussion about BACON can be taken in the other BACON topics.
By reading this link here: http://www.eve-online.com/pnp/terms.asp you can clearly see that there is nothing written about the actual Logserver there, it's only written about the actual EVE there. So since there is nothing in the EULA about using 3rd party apps on the Logserver, then they ofc will say it's allowed.
But the TERMS OF SERVICE might be way out of date there, but as long it's documented there and not updated, then we have to go after what's beeing written there.
But the EULA there still say something that makes BACON against the rules.
The first rule i see it break, is about the 3rd party apps. The users of BACON say that it doesn't have any communication with the EVE server, so it's allowed. That might be true. But they don't seem to get the point. NO 3rd party apps that gets ANY information of what's happening ingame shouldn't be allowed in any ways. Whatever the reason is.
The second rule i see it break is about advantage over other players. Yes, BACON takes an advantage over me for example, because i don't use BACON, and will never do. And as far as i know, the reason why UI modification is not allowed in EVE, is because you can easily make add-ons to EVE then that takes an advantage over other players. So that's why that's forbidden. And it will stay like that forever.
BACON takes an advantage over other players because it makes a sound when some hostiles or whatever enters local and then does the job for you so you don't have to check local when some hostiles or whatever jumps in. While i have to manually check the local all the time, and play like other loyal players are doing.
BUT.., BACON is not the worst thing here, but that's not the point, the real problem here is that BACON might be a start on something that can be a REALLY REALLY big nightmare / problem for CCP soonÖ if they don't fix the Logserver or at least ban all types of 3rd party applications like BACON.
That's the point. While BACON only makes a sound, that sound can be used to make tons of other apps that can do nasty stuffs like, Log off automaticly when that sound is played. Automaticly warp to a safespot and cloack when that sound is played, and so on, you see my point here???.
By allowing this app, CCP will then let stuffs like this happens. Things like this might already be happening, but even when that's happening it shouldn't continue. It should STOP right NOW before it's to late.
You might think i'm very desperat now when making this topic, but i'm not, i'm making this topic because i want to continue to play EVE for many many more years, and that without 3rd party apps that will slowly kill EVE.
I have been playing EVE Online for over 4 years now, and i'm sure CCP will still love to have me here. But then CCP have to listen to us to.
This topic is only to hope that CCP will make EVE Online a better game, and to hope that CCP will listen to us loyal players on what's good for EVE and that.
So by this topic i want EVERYONE that support and those who are signing this topic to write CCP a petition on WHY you want them to change the Logserver or at least ban apps like BACON.
A petition always helps, so the more who write CCP a petition about this, the more the chance it will be that they are doing something to get this changed.
So here is the e-mail address you can send your petition to if you want or at least try to make EVE a better game:
[email protected].
May the cheaters burn in hell.
NightmareX |
Koala Bare
eXceed Inc. eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.05.04 15:07:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Koala Bare on 04/05/2008 15:10:00 Edited by: Koala Bare on 04/05/2008 15:07:56 it's getting boring ya know .... eleventymillion same topics ...
Besides, why do you want to burden the customer support folks who don't put together the policies with even more work so they can't address actual active and ongoing petitions >.<
Try intelligence and social implants, really, they do help.
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NightmareX
Quam Singulari Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.05.04 15:10:00 -
[3]
I forgot to say that you can tell me the right place to send a petition if the Support address is not the right place to send a petition to. |
Koala Bare
eXceed Inc. eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.05.04 15:11:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Koala Bare on 04/05/2008 15:13:17
Originally by: NightmareX I forgot to say that you can tell me the right place to send a petition if the Support address is not the right place to send a petition to.
You forget a lot.
See implants comment.
Seriously, don't cause unnecessary customer support spam. Besides directing your sillyness at the wrong people, it gets in the way of their actual job.
Think spammage will result in more CCP kneejerking? Fine, but then you have to really work for it, instead of this silly stuff.
Besides, cut CCP some slack. They're creative and thorough enough to come up with something, as they have already stated ....
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RigelKentaurus
Flying Tartiflette Caldari Deep Space Industral
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Posted - 2008.05.04 15:15:00 -
[5]
I'm not pro or anti-BACON, but all I can say is it's a pointless fight. You'll always have people trying to write apps to gain advantage over others. What will you say the day someone writes an app that checks the pixels on your screen to see if the local has changed? The only way CCP will be able to fight against that will be by putting process checkers on your computers.
Originally by: NightmareX Before i start, this topic should ONLY be for those who agree with me and i will only see replys with peoples that have a reason why CCP should change Logserver or ban BACON, because just saying signed can be taken as spam.
"My opinion is the only right one, so I don't care about others" ? |
NightmareX
Quam Singulari Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.05.04 15:16:00 -
[6]
Edited by: NightmareX on 04/05/2008 15:17:48 CCP have said that they are gonna do something with the Logserver, but it's not confirmed yet that it will happen.
If someone from CCP can confirm in this topic that the Logserver will be changed, then i'm getting happy, and ofc this topic isn't actually needed.
And also, BACON lovers can stay out of this topic. |
Batolemaeus
Caldari Batolemaeus Corp
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Posted - 2008.05.04 15:17:00 -
[7]
I absolutely support the idea of changing the way logserver works, so it will no longer be possible to gather relevant information IN REALTIME. A delay if ok for bugreporting. A 5 minute delay will render any application basing on the logserver files useless. |
cyt0matrix
Carebear Killers Inc. Anarchy.
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Posted - 2008.05.04 15:19:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Koala Bare Edited by: Koala Bare on 04/05/2008 15:10:00 Edited by: Koala Bare on 04/05/2008 15:07:56 it's getting boring ya know .... eleventymillion same topics ...
Besides, why do you want to burden the customer support folks who don't put together the policies with even more work so they can't address actual active and ongoing petitions >.<
Try intelligence and social implants, really, they do help.
Nobody is forcing you to read it you know. Click back and move on.
I totally agree with nightmareX here. You dont even need to pay attention to local with bacon. It alerts you when neut/hostile enters local. Bacon might not affect the game play of other that much, right now. But it will in the future. |
Demitria Fernir
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.05.04 15:20:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Demitria Fernir on 04/05/2008 15:19:58 don't think any of this will ever happen. i think CCP is caring more about the next expansion instead of whining on the forums (like "WOW I NEVER SAW THAT ONE COMING") |
Jade Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.05.04 15:20:00 -
[10]
Topic has been discussed a lot already but its an important one. Suffice to say I agree with you that BACON should be stopped, and doing it via log-server alterations/tightening-up, is the way.
One thing I will is that in the future this kind of petition topic will be greatly improved by the CSM functionality - where CSM reps can tag a topic for attention and a voting poll can be added to see if it attracts the minimum 5% support for CSM consideration of agenda items.
I'll also say that I'm standing for CSM election and if I'm elected I'll definitely vote for the restriction of log-server derived 3rd party applications like BACON and for the immediate banning of BACON itself.
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Koala Bare
eXceed Inc. eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.05.04 15:27:00 -
[11]
Originally by: NightmareX I have been playing EVE Online for over 4 years now, and i'm sure CCP will still love to have me here. But then CCP have to listen to us to
Waiting for someone to ask if they can have your stuff then.
Originally by: NightmareX
And also, BACON lovers can stay out of this topic.
Quit the whining. You opened a discussion thread, so as always it's going to strand in .. omg .. discussion.
Look. I can't stand the whole concept of BACON as much as the next guy. But, I did take it for some spins in the place where everyone has his or her farmer alts, HYDRA. Results were simple: it doesn't give more advance warning, just the same, it doesn't discount the afk factors (seriously no audio alert is going to get your wife to let you turn back attention to the screen), all it does is make people lazy. Tbh I loved that part, didn't even need to use the Hydra alts to preset targets for ganks :P
Picking out Bacon as the ultimate evil is kinda ignorant and stupid however, as over the past years there have been similar, and even far deeper reaching tools going round in 0.0 alliances. Only when these Bacon dudes had the balls to check in with CCP, did the wannabee gankers panic.
More whining ain't gonna help, and if you hadn't noticed CCP is getting allergic to the historic bashing to get kneejerk reactions to roll out.
For the first time, CCP are not just aware, but also in touch with both concept and challenges of these third party interactions. Now let them get their heads around it. And please, stop being naive folks.
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Koala Bare
eXceed Inc. eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.05.04 15:31:00 -
[12]
Originally by: cyt0matrix You dont even need to pay attention to local with bacon. It alerts you when neut/hostile enters local. Bacon might not affect the game play of other that much, right now. But it will in the future.
Bacon is perfect for nano wannabee ganker groups with a bit of brains. The targets are not only beefy, but also lazy and relient on tools outside of the game, without anything in real life changing their afk factors. Like NightmareX here any smart small roaming group puts alts in target groups, see how lazy the Hydra bunch is getting - it's perfect tbh.
Bacon ain't the issue.
The functionality boundaries are. Over the years folks have told CCP of third party tools which make Bacon a very amateuristic and limited tool, from Local impact to Market abuse, that's where the focus should be, and not at the whining.
Thing is bro, eleventymillion threads aren't going to help, to the contrary, and neither is support spamming going to help, on the contrary. |
Faife
Noctiscion Twilight Trade Cartel
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Posted - 2008.05.04 16:06:00 -
[13]
Good lord OP, they said they're working on it, quit being a little petulant child. You're not doing anything besides wasting bandwidth and their time. |
NightmareX
Quam Singulari Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.05.04 16:12:00 -
[14]
Like i said earlier here, if CCP can confirm 100% that they are changing the Logserver for REAL, then we don't need this topic, but like i also said, it's not been confirmed that it's actually happening.
It takes the Devs 2 mins to write a reply here and confirm that they are changing it or not, so i see no problems with that.
As long it's not confirmed, then i see a good reason for this topic to be here. |
Kvirie
Caldari Children of the Wind
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Posted - 2008.05.04 16:17:00 -
[15]
GM Grimmi has already said they're changing the logserver. |
Havohej
Minmatar The Defias Brotherhood
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Posted - 2008.05.04 16:18:00 -
[16]
Linkage from page 21 of the BACON (relaunch) thread that is now locked.
Originally by: GM Grimmi Greetings,
The LogServer output is solely intended by CCP as information for developers to help identify and fix bugs. While BACON, and the many similar tools currently used by a large number of players, may technically not be in violation of our EULA/TOS, we frown upon the use of this information for any other purpose and we are currently working on changes to prevent this sort of unintended use of information provided by the LogServer.
Regards,
GM Grimmi Lead Game Master
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Reuser
Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.05.04 16:21:00 -
[17]
Don't bother posting links to anything. NightmareX can't read. True story.
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Cori4n
Caldari principle of motion Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.05.04 16:24:00 -
[18]
Quote: Before i start, this topic should ONLY be for those who agree with me and i will only see replys with peoples that have a reason why CCP should change Logserver or ban BACON, because just saying signed can be taken as spam.
Quote: Petitions or "/signed" posts are a version of bumping and likewise are not permitted.
For someone who cares about the rules so much... ;)
Quote: BUT.., BACON is not the worst thing here, but that's not the point, the real problem here is that BACON might be a start on something that can be a REALLY REALLY big nightmare / problem for CCP soonÖ if they don't fix the Logserver or at least ban all types of 3rd party applications like BACON.
That's the point. While BACON only makes a sound, that sound can be used to make tons of other apps that can do nasty stuffs like, Log off automaticly when that sound is played. Automaticly warp to a safespot and cloack when that sound is played, and so on, you see my point here???.
As I've written before, Gunfleet has jumped through hoops to make BACON not be a EULA violation. Warping automatically would be a macro and obviously forbidden. Killing the app is a little more of a grey thing, but I would argue that that's a EULA violation too. BACON is not... you argue a slippery slope, but there's a big wall in the middle of the slope called the eula and most of the stuff you guys propose is quite firmly against it.
Anyway, have you considered the flipside of the coin? Imagine some 0.0 space where every blue has "BACON", well, a centralized version of it. It'd be like an intel channel but better, a way to keep space much safer than is currently possible. But it'd require resources-- either people to populate the systems where you're getting intel, or else AFK cloakers, which cost ISK for GTCs and will soon be able to be probed out. And of course you'll need someone smart enough to maintain a server, which could get hacked.
If there are enough reds, no amount of intel will keep your space safe. Indeed, even a few would be enough to disrupt the intel that you might come to rely on.
But if and only if you could get it to all work, and have enough blues, everyone could see when roaming gangs are coming and it would be far less dangerous to rat and mine. So your alliance will get richer, and you could rent out some systems to carebears which would have great value due to the added security.
So, as a flipside to "BACON will kill EVE", you could say BACON has the potential to add an extra layer of depth to EVE, at least in nullsec.
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darklegionca
Caldari Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2008.05.04 16:24:00 -
[19]
Adapt or go back to wow enough said |
NightmareX
Quam Singulari Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.05.04 16:28:00 -
[20]
Edited by: NightmareX on 04/05/2008 16:29:19 Oh i forgot to say IN BEFORE THE BACON BEARS.
Say what you want, but any communication with ANYTHING that can get information about something that is happening ingame, and then makes a program to use the info from that to take an advantage over others is as bad as it can gets.
Well, if the petition thing or signing thing isn't allowed, then it's fine, but then at least show your respect to CCP here and write something that is against the BACON or support that you want Logerser to be changed ASAP.
SHOW CCP SOME RESPECT. |
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Cori4n
Caldari principle of motion Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.05.04 16:32:00 -
[21]
Originally by: NightmareX Say what you want, but any communication with ANYTHING that can get information about something that is happening ingame, and then makes a program to use the info from that to take an advantage over others is as bad as it can gets.
Did the API kill EVE...? |
NightmareX
Quam Singulari Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.05.04 16:32:00 -
[22]
Edited by: NightmareX on 04/05/2008 16:33:07
Originally by: Cori4n
Originally by: NightmareX Say what you want, but any communication with ANYTHING that can get information about something that is happening ingame, and then makes a program to use the info from that to take an advantage over others is as bad as it can gets.
Did the API kill EVE...?
No but that's a totally different story.
The API key is something totally different from this BACON thing, so it doesn't have anything to do with this. |
Aaetos
Caldari SwEaTy ArMpIT RaIDeRs Fang Alliance
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Posted - 2008.05.04 16:33:00 -
[23]
mega fail
adapt and die or whatever
cba to read your almost structured WoT
but i managed to the first bits "do not post if u disagree with me" - most utterly failing thing ever on this forum
You sir, are a Swine
Lets start a petition to remove the 1% of people that think bacon is really having a massive impact on eve.
People could easily meta game before bacon, and will always find ways no matter what you try to do. and you know what?
Thats the beauty of creativity. people will always suceed in beating "the system" so get ur head down, and let it flow over you, rather than trying to fight pointless battles NOBODY really cares about. |
NightmareX
Quam Singulari Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.05.04 16:34:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Aaetos Lets start a petition to remove the 1% of people that think bacon is really having a massive impact on eve.
Sorry, but you fail to understand this topic. |
Arctur Ceti
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Posted - 2008.05.04 16:36:00 -
[25]
please ccp, won't you think of the tri killboard? it's gonna bring down their epeen. so pretty pretty please ban bacon. |
Havohej
Minmatar The Defias Brotherhood
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Posted - 2008.05.04 16:36:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Aaetos mega fail
adapt and die or whatever
cba to read your almost structured WoT
but i managed to the first bits "do not post if u disagree with me" - most utterly failing thing ever on this forum
You sir, are a Swine
Lets start a petition to remove the 1% of people that think bacon is really having a massive impact on eve.
People could easily meta game before bacon, and will always find ways no matter what you try to do. and you know what?
Thats the beauty of creativity. people will always suceed in beating "the system" so get ur head down, and let it flow over you, rather than trying to fight pointless battles NOBODY really cares about.
CCP cares about it...
Originally by: Havohej Linkage from page 21 of the BACON (relaunch) thread that is now locked.
Originally by: GM Grimmi Greetings,
The LogServer output is solely intended by CCP as information for developers to help identify and fix bugs. While BACON, and the many similar tools currently used by a large number of players, may technically not be in violation of our EULA/TOS, we frown upon the use of this information for any other purpose and we are currently working on changes to prevent this sort of unintended use of information provided by the LogServer.
Regards,
GM Grimmi Lead Game Master
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Cori4n
Caldari principle of motion Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.05.04 16:55:00 -
[27]
Originally by: NightmareX Edited by: NightmareX on 04/05/2008 16:33:07
Originally by: Cori4n
Originally by: NightmareX Say what you want, but any communication with ANYTHING that can get information about something that is happening ingame, and then makes a program to use the info from that to take an advantage over others is as bad as it can gets.
Did the API kill EVE...?
No but that's a totally different story.
The API key is something totally different from this BACON thing, so it doesn't have anything to do with this.
But it can "get information about something that is happening ingame" |
Strak Yogorn
Amarr Mind Warpers
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Posted - 2008.05.04 17:04:00 -
[28]
Originally by: NightmareX Edited by: NightmareX on 04/05/2008 16:49:21 Like i said earlier here, if CCP can confirm 100% that they are changing the Logserver for REAL, then we don't need this topic, but like i also said, it's not been confirmed that it's actually happening.
It takes the Devs 2 mins to write a reply here and confirm that they are changing it or not, so i see no problems with that.
As long it's not confirmed by the Devs, then i see a good reason for this topic to be here.
actually we dont need this topic anyway, as it brings nothing new to the discussion, you might as well have used one of the 342565726 other topics .. bacons biggest problem is, that they went public. just imagine if you could get the users of all the other utils to admit, that they are using something to gain an edge.. but that will never happen. |
NightmareX
Quam Singulari Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.05.04 17:06:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Cori4n
Originally by: NightmareX Edited by: NightmareX on 04/05/2008 16:33:07
Originally by: Cori4n
Originally by: NightmareX Say what you want, but any communication with ANYTHING that can get information about something that is happening ingame, and then makes a program to use the info from that to take an advantage over others is as bad as it can gets.
Did the API kill EVE...?
No but that's a totally different story.
The API key is something totally different from this BACON thing, so it doesn't have anything to do with this.
But it can "get information about something that is happening ingame"
Does the API key makes you take an advantage over other players? |
Reuser
Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.05.04 17:13:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Strak Yogorn
actually we dont need this topic anyway, as it brings nothing new to the discussion, you might as well have used one of the 342565726 other topics .. bacons biggest problem is, that they went public. just imagine if you could get the users of all the other utils to admit, that they are using something to gain an edge.. but that will never happen.
Actually, being open and honest is BACON's biggest strength, not BACON's biggest problem, IMHO.
Second, you are right. This thread is nothing different than the x other rants on BACON. Problem is, NightmareX was losing quite badly to his own logic in the other thread. I stopped reading when he started accusing CCP of breaking their own EULA.
tl;dr - In before the lock.
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