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Anonymos CEO
Angry Miners in Stringtangas
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Posted - 2008.05.11 10:56:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Anonymos CEO on 11/05/2008 10:56:22 With the ongoing Discussion about titans, brought up by KIAEddz in CAOD (http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=766895) I wanted to ask all Candidates, what their views are on Titans and Titan Warfare?
For me this is one of some major issues with eve atm.
What would the candidates try to change? What would you bring up to CCP, if it comes down to a discussion about titans.
Please no flaming and chestbeating here.
With best regards Anonymos CEO
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Jade Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.05.15 01:05:00 -
[2]
Okay, IÆm going to make a serious attempt at answering this question. I can understand why the other CSM candidates steered clear though, since it is a very contentious issue and something of an electoral minefield - but I think the Eve player-base deserve to hear the opinions of the people they are voting for, especially since there is a high likelihood that this matter of ôTitan Balanceö will come up for formal discussion at the CSM.
First of all experience-wise, I havenÆt flown a Titan personally û but I have spoken at length to people who have. I have seen Titan-class ships in operation and seen the effects of single doomsday weapons deployed in small-scale warfare. IÆve also followed with great interest the AAR and assessments of Titan role in larger fights and strategic deployment in territorial warfare thus far. IÆm quite aware of the potential damage and impact the doomsday weapon (singular) does on the battlefield, and IÆm similarly aware of the potential impact of multiple doomsdays coordinated or staggered on the fleet battle environment.
Now, IÆm going to stick by my assessment in the Manifesto that there isnÆt anything essentially wrong with the balance of the ship + doomsday weapon in concept. I definitely feel that the AOE weaponry should remain an option for this ship class and I think it would be unfair and unreasonable to remove this functionality at this point given the extreme skill training and expense of preparing characters for this role.
But, there are problems with the Titan class and the foremost of these is its ability to perform almost consequence-free hit and run attacks via doomsday with no ability for the victims to counter the tactic. ItÆs possible at the moment for a Titan to arrive on grid and almost immediately begin its warp out while triggering the DD weapon and enter escape warp after the weapon goes off. This isnÆt reasonable since if the hit and run attack is performed correctly its virtually impossible for any ship capable of surviving the doomsday to reach bubble/focused scram range on the Titan before it can leave.
Secondly, the proliferation of Titan class hulls will ultimately leave us with the situation where a group of TitanÆs has the option of coordinating DD firing to instantly destroy all heavy Indictors on grid. If all Titans are aligned and ready they will be able to disengage against an unlimited number of HiCÆs in this fashion and can simply escape after causing damage with the AOE.
IÆm going to suggest the following changes to deal with these problems:
1. A Titan should be unable to initiate warp for a period of 60secs after DD activation. This to be hard-coded into its stats: this enables a fair chance for enemy indictors to cross the grid and get points if they are quick and the Titan is unsupported by an appropriate defence force.
2. IÆd like to see the introduction of Capital ship grade warp scramblers that are able to scramble Super-Capital hulls with a decent range and fitting requirements commensurate with capital modules. These will allow capital ship ôtacklersö to gain and hold points on super-capital targets even in multiple Titan simultaneous DD environments where even HiCÆs would be instantly destroyed by the combined blast.
-cont
CSM Election Manifesto 2008 |
Jade Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.05.15 01:07:00 -
[3]
Now these are both technical ônerfÆsö to the current usage and capability of Titans so to be fair there needs to be some rebalancing in turn to allow Titans to compete in situations where they are tackled and unable to escape without fighting and destroying their tacklers:
1. IÆd like to see the Titan hit points increased and defence advantage enhanced. If weÆre forcing these ships to stay around in fleet battles as the focal objectives for all likely hostility its only fair to give them the ability to better survive in this environment.
2. IÆd like to see a focused-script for the Doomsday Weapon that allows the Titan pilot to choose between the 60min recharge AOE weapon and a 1min ROF Anti capital weapon with good range and commensurate damage that will allow these ships to present a significant threat to capital ships in theater if they choose to focus on this role.
*This should be a tactical choice as to when to switch between the focused weapon with rapid refire and the AOE doomsday that will have one big bang then a 60 minute cooldown (where even the scripted mode wouldnÆt be available). This gives the Titan a real anti-capital role in supported fleets and means an additional sacrifice of capability against larger ships when it chooses to fire the area Doomsday.
In conclusion IÆd see these changes having the effect of keeping Titans on the battlefield where they are committed and reducing the effect of consequence-free hit and run raids where they doomsday and leave. I like the Titan class ship, and I think itÆs great as an aspiration for advanced pilots and powerful alliances û but it needs to be more ôepicö û and ôepicö in this context means playing a significant role in fleet battles both from being forced to remain longer, and able to actively fight when not in doomsday deployment mode.
Ultimately I believe the solution to the problem of ôcapitals onlineö in Eve is to alter the mechanics to make capital usage more dangerous and brutal and ensure that significant capital engagements end with significant casualties. When we start seeing multiple Titans, supercaps and caps dying in single terrible engagements then weÆll start seeing impact on alliance wallets and stockpiles of capital ships finally diminishing to the cost of endless and continuing war. This returns consequence and dynamic attrition to the business of wielding power and can only be a good thing.
CSM Election Manifesto 2008 |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.05.15 03:31:00 -
[4]
large scale AoEs need to be removed from the game completely. Anyone espousing a different opinion is of one of two minds. Either they do not understand what large scale AoEs do to games like this, or they want the game to be a blob-fest pushing out small scale combat all together and in general hate fights that won't crash the node. Its very simple, large scale AoEs force people to blob and in serious amounts. If you like, i can explain in great depth, but its going to take a long time, so for now i am going to leave it at that.
I am appalled but not surprised that Jade actually wants to buff titans.
Vote Goumindong for CSM |
Tea Spoon
Gallente Baptism oF Fire Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.05.15 06:03:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Tea Spoon on 15/05/2008 06:04:31 edit - misread that |
zoolkhan
Minmatar Mirkur Draug'Tyr Fate Weavers
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Posted - 2008.05.15 06:46:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Anonymos CEO , what their views are on Titans and Titan Warfare?
For me this is one of some major issues with eve atm.
limit it to one per alliance.
or even limit it to a certain amount per entire game by activating blueprints (fairness by waiting list) only when somewhere another titan dies.
cap it. not more than maybe 5 in the entire game - that would comply with the backstory.
of course it also leaves the power with those who already have one - but they are the only ones able to build them too, so there is no major change.
i am aware that this is just a very very rough frame of an idea that needs a lot of discussion and thinking.
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Serenity Steele
Dynamic Data Distribution Ministry of Information
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Posted - 2008.05.15 06:54:00 -
[7]
(Soon TM)
≡v≡ Strategic Maps now in Eve-Online Store |
Sariyah
HUN Corp. HUN Reloaded
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Posted - 2008.05.15 07:26:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Goumindong large scale AoEs need to be removed from the game completely. Anyone espousing a different opinion is of one of two minds. Either they do not understand what large scale AoEs do to games like this, or they want the game to be a blob-fest pushing out small scale combat all together and in general hate fights that won't crash the node. Its very simple, large scale AoEs force people to blob and in serious amounts. If you like, i can explain in great depth, but its going to take a long time, so for now i am going to leave it at that.
I am appalled but not surprised that Jade actually wants to buff titans.
Hehe... a goon wanting to remove titans, what a surprise. It is an anti-blob weapon... I don't see how removing titans would actually promote small scale combat but it makes sense for Goon to promote ideas like this...
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.05.15 07:30:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Sariyah
Hehe... a goon wanting to remove titans, what a surprise. It is an anti-blob weapon... I don't see how removing titans would actually promote small scale combat but it makes sense for Goon to promote ideas like this...
It is not an anti-blob weapon. It is an anti-fight weapon. They are very similar to tactical and strategic nuclear weapons in that regard. You can't fight small so you either don't fight at all, or you blob to a huge amount.
Also, we now have three titans and we won't be slowing down our production any time soon.
Vote Goumindong for CSM |
Sariyah
HUN Corp. HUN Reloaded
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Posted - 2008.05.15 07:40:00 -
[10]
Small gangs were never supposed to do strategic things. Titans have now the possibility to reduce gangs (pay attention and align, or die) a bit to make it all more playable... ;)
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.05.15 10:07:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Goumindong on 15/05/2008 10:07:08
Originally by: Sariyah Small gangs were never supposed to do strategic things. Titans have now the possibility to reduce gangs (pay attention and align, or die) a bit to make it all more playable... ;)
wait. So let me get this straight.
Small gangs aren't supposed to be able to do strategic things.
Titans are designed to make gangs smaller
Everyone flies small gangs or gets killed by titans
No one does anything.
...
Yea, that is a recipe for success!
Oh, and also, its just as easy to DD a small gang as it is to DD a larger one. A lot easier actually since they are less likely to be able to get you held down than a larger one is.
Vote Goumindong for CSM |
Bartholomeus Crane
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Posted - 2008.05.15 10:12:00 -
[12]
Small gangs are really fun though, and at least can be handled by the server well.
The mass proliferation of capitals and super-capitals in the game is a bad thing. It takes away from the fun and upsets the balance in that the haves can always beat down the have-nots. It's now to the point that you have to have a fleet of capitals and super-capitals to hold space in 0.0 with an alliance.
So, the idea of making capital combat more brutal sounds good to me. Also, I think that when a Titan jumps into battle, that should be a big deal. You lose Epicness when you have 4 Titans jump in.
I don't think Jade's ideas are the answer, but at least he has stated an opinion on it. Flaming is easy, come up with your own ideas if you know it all. -- Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? |
Ben Derindar
Dirty Deeds Corp. Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2008.05.15 10:25:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Anonymos CEO I wanted to ask all Candidates, what their views are on Titans and Titan Warfare?
For me this is one of some major issues with eve atm.
What would the candidates try to change? What would you bring up to CCP, if it comes down to a discussion about titans.
My view on titans is that they shouldn't be as commonplace as the are quickly becoming now, but at the same time I am an advocate for keeping the Doomsday; IMO the day the DD is removed is the day that numbers become the final solution to all PvP in Eve, and I hope I don't have to point out what that would do for the game on the lag front.
But they still do need to be nerfed in some other way that discourages people from continuing to build them. The idea I've seen that I like the most at this point is to make supercapitals persistent in space when their pilots log off. If nothing else, it keeps the casual player from farming their way to their own personal ubertoy, and gives explorers something to do for the rest who are prepared to accept the additional risk.
Of course, the risk could be reduced by sharing ownership of a titan with another player, but we see that to a limited degree in the game already anyway.
/Ben
Ben Derindar: Eve CSM candidate
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.05.15 10:39:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Bartholomeus Crane Small gangs are really fun though, and at least can be handled by the server well.
They are, but you do not get more small gangs by implementing a system by where the haves can bring as much as they want and the have nots cannot. And when two haves fight each other their options are "bring really freaking super-omg ridiculous huge" amounts of forces or don't fight at all.
You make more small gang warfare by removing large scale AoEs and giving small gangs goals that they can accomplish.
You can read more of this in my manifesto, ask me a question about it in my thread, or ask me to explain here. I would be happy to do any. But titans in their current iteration do not make small gangs more viable. They make them less so.
Vote Goumindong for CSM |
Kelsin
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.05.15 12:25:00 -
[15]
Goumindong, based on everything I've read (and admittedly never personally experienced) about Titans I do agree that it seems the Doomsday is far too overpowering given that it's necessary to form large fleets to take down cynojammers and POSes. However, I don't see how the existence of the Doomsday is responsible for blobbing as you suggest.
Isn't it the cynojammer and the structure of Sov warfare that is responsible for blobbing?
I would think, as Jade suggests, that if Sov warfare didn't require the forming of large fleets to conquer territory - but instead relied on a decentralized mechanic like capturing Stargates for a cumulative Sov effect - that the relative power of the Doomsday would be severely diminished.
To me what I hear is upsetting to players facing Titans is that this very effective anti-fleet weapon was introduced without also introducing alternatives to fielding a large fleet.
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Jade Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.05.15 12:38:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Bartholomeus Crane The mass proliferation of capitals and super-capitals in the game is a bad thing. It takes away from the fun and upsets the balance in that the haves can always beat down the have-nots. It's now to the point that you have to have a fleet of capitals and super-capitals to hold space in 0.0 with an alliance. So, the idea of making capital combat more brutal sounds good to me. Also, I think that when a Titan jumps into battle, that should be a big deal. You lose Epicness when you have 4 Titans jump in.
I think I'm going disagree partially - you don't lose the Epic nature of the fight when 4 Titans jump in. You lose the Epic when they jump-in ... hit warp, and use the 30 second align to trigger doomsdays and inevitable killmail lag to clear their exit from the battlefield and subsequent cloaking at safespots. I would like to see those Titans arriving and announcing their presence with strong anti-capital warfare weaponry, getting tackled and committed, forming the focal point of the battle for both sides and having the option to change script and trigger the AOE doomsday if they need to clear the decks of sub-capital assailants while continuing to slug it out with capital class foes (knowing that triggering the AOE takes their main anti-captial gun out of the fight for an hour).
Making capital fights feel like capital fights is the key here - and my guy instinct is that capitals should not be performing hit and run actions. Deal with this situation and the rest is naturally self-balancing. Eve would have epic capital clashes with many super-cap deaths a side and wars would be decided by these engagements. With the best logistics in the world at the moment it takes a lot to build a Titan, if you are losing these at a rate of 1-2 each couple of weeks you are not going to sustain the war effort indefinitely.
Current malaise with Eve turning into "capitals online" is because in reality - not many capital ships actually die. Hit and run usage of Titan's is bad for this - so, as I said, nothing much wrong with the AOE doomsday - just ensure the ship that deploys it is committed to the fight and needs a support fleet.
Quote: I don't think Jade's ideas are the answer, but at least he has stated an opinion on it. Flaming is easy, come up with your own ideas if you know it all.
Yep, I'm very interested to see other people's proposals on the Titan issue. My answer to the op was a considered piece written after talking over the issue with a lot of clever people who have been involved with Titan warfare in Eve but it still needs a lot of discussion and refinement - but hey, at this point as prospective candidates we're are supposed to be showing our thought processes and general take on a variety of issues and hopefully this kind of issue/thread can give an insignt into the sort of CSM reps we'd make.
CSM Election Manifesto 2008 |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.05.15 12:53:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Kelsin Goumindong[snip for space]
Yes and a whole lot of no.
Titans are not solely responsible for blobbing. POS are also responsible for blobbing. But POS are not responsible for blobbing because they are centralized. Only because they require so many resources to take down[at least well set up ones do, loads of people are putting up POS which can be brought down by small BS gangs, and we have the killmails to prove it]
But doomsdays do make it worse and make it a lot worse.
Jade is wrong in wanting to decentralize Sov warfare. That will only make it harder for small forces to compete[since large forces get larger forces at each area] and creates even more balance problems[typically either making attack stupidly easy or making defense stupidly easy]. You must centralize sov warfare otherwise smaller forces will be unable to concentrate their forces to take space where defenders are weak. Now there are things you can do to get fights off the same grid[make dreads able to shoot at capitals/towers from off-grid], but at its heart it needs to be at a single objective. Defenders win if the POS is repped. Attackers win if the POS is destroyed.
Cyno jammers do not create blobbing and have actually prevented it to the largest extent from any currently implemented game mechanic. Before cyno jammers, sov warfare consisted of moving your capitals up to a system and then blobbing the **** out of it until the system was taken. Now sov warfare means carving a path in and out for your capitals. More fights, often less intensive[since they aren't all for stations].
That isn't to say there isn't a problem with cyno jammers. But its not with the design itself and only with the difficulty involved in taking them down.
Quote:
To me what I hear is upsetting to players facing Titans is that this very effective anti-fleet weapon was introduced without also introducing alternatives to fielding a large fleet.
Absolutely not. Titans are just as effective against small fleets as they are against large ones. And so are doomsdays. So are all AoEs[even "bouncing AoE" as you can simply game them by bringing a lot of your own forces]. Without removing the AoE that will not change.
Even if you had decentralized targets optimal play strategy would be to bring titans and DD the other side. This makes it less likely that people will want to fight. It being less likely that people will fight is bad for the game.
On the titan side a few things need to happen.
The AoE needs to be removed It needs to be replaced with either an AoE ewar[strong, but won't wipe out a fleet], or single target ultra high alpha-blast.[which makes titans vulnerable to themselves and sets them up as capital killers, but vulnerable to small ships].
The answer is absolutely not making titans stronger against capitals without severely limiting their abilities against smaller ships. Alpha classes are bad for the game and titans are just that and with jades changes would be even more so.
There are other things that need to be done to give smaller gangs roles. But that has little to do with titans and more to do with not having enough stuff for people to do that has a quantifiable effect on an alliance[which means there is very little impetus for defenders getting out to defend NOW rather than getting out to defend later when they have a huge force superiority, of course, this target also has to be not so material that it cannot be left for obvious reasons]. And if there were any reason to not do stuff like that would be because of the current ability of small ships to run away. But not a reason to do this because of or in spite of titans.
If you want to get into how exactly how and why you can fix sov warfare and why its separate from titans i would be happy to oblige, but i do not have the time or the space at this present time
Vote Goumindong for CSM |
Anonymos CEO
Angry Miners in Stringtangas
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Posted - 2008.05.15 13:08:00 -
[18]
Thank you for your replys so far. Especially to Jade¦s Post. There are some really good points and ideas in it :)
Looking forward to see some more opinions from other candidates :)
Just to clear it up. Personlly i think the DD itself is fine how it is. It¦s a powerfull single blast which is fine for a Titan Class Vessel. So removing it would be wrong at all. Changes to the way titans are used this days need to be done :) The "stacking" of Doomsdays combined with nearly total invulnerability is also one thing which is wrong is my eyes.
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Kelsin
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.05.15 13:09:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Kelsin on 15/05/2008 13:13:09 Well although the DD is obviously as effective in a single engagement against a small force as it is a large force (since the damage is not distributed), what you have to compare it to is not a single engagement but multiple small engagements vs a single large one. The Doomsday is not as effective against 10 10-man gangs attacking objectives in different grids and systems as it is against a single 100-man fleet attacking a single centralized target, since it can only take out of those 10 gangs.
EDIT: Oh also, in the book Ender's Game the humans have a weapon called the Little Doctor (I think) that set off a chain reaction when it hit a target that grew more and more destructive the more enemies were grouped together. Something like that is interesting in that it could be made to do less damage per ship to a small number of ships than it would do to a large number of ships - i.e. the damage of the AOE is calculated based on the number of targets within the blast.
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.05.15 13:11:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Goumindong on 15/05/2008 13:15:48
Originally by: Kelsin Well although the DD is obviously as effective in a single engagement against a small force as it is a large force (since the damage is not distributed), what you have to compare it to is not a single engagement but multiple small engagements vs a single large one. The Doomsday is not as effective against 10 10-man gangs attacking objectives in different grids and systems as it is against a single 100-man fleet attacking a single centralized target, since it can only take out of those 10 gangs.
the 10 10 man gangs die to the titans support fleet...
Or die to 10 different titans. The point is that the answer is always "titan" and always "as many titans as possible". Especially with what jade wants to do, making them an alpha class where the guy who has the titans wins.
edit: Its almost as if you two are playing a single player game where you want to see cool scripted events. It just doesn't work like that you have to take into account how people will play and what they will do.
Vote Goumindong for CSM |
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.05.15 13:17:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Kelsin
EDIT: Oh also, in the book Ender's Game the humans have a weapon called the Little Doctor (I think) that set off a chain reaction when it hit a target that grew more and more destructive the more enemies were grouped together. Something like that is interesting in that it could be made to do less damage per ship to a small number of ships than it would do to a large number of ships - i.e. the damage of the AOE is calculated based on the number of targets within the blast.
As stated earlier, you game the system and put more cheap targets in the area. If they attack with a force strong enough to do anything, you pop your AoE and wipe their fleet. If they don't you've got 100 rifters on a gate killing their small gang.
Vote Goumindong for CSM |
Kelsin
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.05.15 13:22:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Goumindong the 10 10 man gangs die to the titans support fleet...
Or die to 10 different titans. The point is that the answer is always "titan" and always "as many titans as possible". Especially with what jade wants to do, making them an alpha class where the guy who has the titans wins.
Well first, you're mistaken about what Jade has posted above - it doesn't say anything like that.
Second, let's stay within the realm of sensible counter-examples please.
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.05.15 13:56:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Kelsin
Originally by: Goumindong the 10 10 man gangs die to the titans support fleet...
Or die to 10 different titans. The point is that the answer is always "titan" and always "as many titans as possible". Especially with what jade wants to do, making them an alpha class where the guy who has the titans wins.
Well first, you're mistaken about what Jade has posted above - it doesn't say anything like that.
Second, let's stay within the realm of sensible counter-examples please.
No, it does say that, it just doesn't seem like it because Jade dressed it up in pretty words and other bull. A titan that is not only capable of blowing an grid clearing AoE DD but also a concentrated volley damage that can be a threat to caps is ridiculous. Its an alpha class that will destroy the game especially as more are created. It not only provides perfect defensive force against smaller opponents but provides offense against capitals. At least right now, a titan or two is vulnerable to concentrated capital forces[pointed/bubbled by a HICTOR, dropped by dreads], and Jade wants to make them actually good at killing the only thing they are vulnerable to!!
Jade has this problem a lot where he promises wild and vague "greatness" but fails to see how incomprehensibly stupid the suggestions are when actually put into practice. They simply do not do what Jade says they will do.
I mean, if i said i had this great idea for sov warfare and the idea was to move cyno jammers and guns inside POS shields because that people can use capitals at all is a terrible thing for the game. You would certainly not agree with me regarding this point, you would say "that will not have the effect you want it to". And so it is the case with pretty much everything he says and claims. Destroying stations will not be a boon to small alliances. It will mean that super-alliances won't have to rely on pets to hold space because they can reduce the effective amount of space by destroying infrastructure. Giving them greater mobility and concentration of capital forces with less need for defense[because if anyone puts anything up they can just go back later and blow it up, then leave again]. Distributing sov contesting mechanics will either make defending impossible or make attacking impossible. Removing jump bridges, cyno jammers, and[or limiting their deployment range to stations] other strategic POS modules will not make combat more dynamic it will return POS sieges to the era of jv1v and 9-9 and the rest of the war in the east[I use these, because its two fights i fought in, including the majority of the LV campaign after Scalding Pass fell(and a bit on the other side before it did), so its easier to describe and define] where you move your capitals up and then blob a system to death ignoring everything else to be taken down later.
And large scale AoEs will not fix blobbing, but only make it worse.
Here is how i would defend any system under Jades system
x titans + y motherships + Z dictors/hictors. Where x and y are as many titans or motherships as you can supply to the field and z is everyone else. If you had more titans and motherships you would win. You would RR blob the motherships/titans while volleying dreads. When enemy capitals are dead the gang would align out set off some DDs then warp 60 seconds later.
Only way to beat it? More titans and motherships than the other guy. Welcome to super-caps online. If the enemy has no caps its even easier, you just blow your load on half the titans, clear the field, then clean up.
Vote Goumindong for CSM |
Kelsin
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.05.15 15:19:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Goumindong And large scale AoEs will not fix blobbing, but only make it worse.
I notice you say this a lot. And while the premise isn't quite accurate (that AOE is meant to "fix" blobbing, rather than just be an anti-blob weapon), I still don't see how AOE weapons make blobbing more prevalent/more desirable.
I think it's important that you take a step back and look at the larger context of how ships and weapons are used on the broad scale, rather than in discrete 1 force on 1 force matchups. So you say fielding as many Titans and Motherships as possible is advantageous? Well yes, it is. But the ISK and infrastructure required to field and support them is vast, and that same amount of resources could be used to conduct a broad and extensive sub-capital campaign to attack the ratting and mining operations of the Titan/Mothership-fielding alliance, which the Capitals would be far less capable of dealing with.
The answer to issues like this is finding the dynamic solution. In the case of the Titan Jade is highlighting concerns about their ability to appear on the battlefield, fire the Doomsday and nearly immediately warp off, and pointing out that it's that third part that's the real problem. Recognizing the core of the problem, he suggests solutions that bring the capabilities and vulnerabilities of the ship more in line with the role it's meant to have. That's just good reasoning and sound judgement.
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Pezzle
Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2008.05.15 15:47:00 -
[25]
AOE weapons of this scale promote more blobbing because they impact not simply one or two ships at a time but entire fleets or wings. With smart bombs you can pull out of range and still remain active in that engagement. With a DD you cannot.
So lets say you have 50 ships, the Titan lets off the DD. Some of your ships live (if you tanked for it). Another DD. Now you need another 50 or more ships to counter that. (no this is not suggesting you need 50 ships to kill a Titan, just an example).
In order to give yourself a chance of victory against fleets with Titans you have to pad your numbers in ever increasing amounts.
What you end up with is either a steamroller or utter stagnation.
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.05.15 16:11:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Kelsin ...
Besides what Pezzle said. Lets talk global thermo nuclear war, and after we get the Mathew Broderick jokes out of the way we can look at...
"How not to get attacked"
There are two ways to not get attacked. Would Iraq please stand up? [Iraq stands up, explodes] That is not how to not get attacked. Would North Korea please stand up? [crickets] Good. That is how to not get attacked. You do one of two things. A: You have a defensive force so strong that anyone who attacks you will fail. B: You have a deterrent force so strong that anyone who attacks you will die.
Nuclear weapons are the ultimate non-weapon in the world. They come in two manners. Strategic[the big ones], and tactical[the small ones]. Strategic nuclear weapons are what is called a deterrent weapon. I.E. a weapon that doesn't stop an opponent from attacking, but a weapon that punishes him for doing so.
Strategic nuclear weapons have no comparable module in eve. What we have is tactical nuclear weapons with a few modification. Tactical weapons are defensive weapons, in that they are used to kill an attacking force and not punish someone from attacking you. The combination of strategic and tactical nuclear weapons[as well as conventional deterrents] have successfully prevented large scale conflicts in Taiwan, Korea, Eastern Europe, and probably a bunch of others that i am forgetting. Tactical nuclear weapons work by increasing the cost of attacking. If China attempted to invade taiwan, the U.S. would launch a tactical nuclear weapon into the Taiwan sea, and wipe out all of the Chinese forces in a single swipe. So if China wants to attack Taiwan and force it back into union, they need as many armies to attack as the U.S. can launch tactical nuclear weapons at plus 1 extra army.
Now, one of the things about nuclear weapons is that they cannot be used offensively. Because doing so destroys the value of what you are attacking. Doomsdays in eve have no such limitations. As such they are not limited to being defensive weapons. Because of this you have the same problem China has attacking Taiwan on offense and defense. If you want to attack and don't have a titan you need as many fleets as the opponent has titans plus 1. If you bring a weaker fleet they just kill you and don't waste the DD. If you want to defend and don't have a titan you need to bring as many fleets as the opponents has titans plus 1. If you bring a weaker fleet they just kill you and don't waste the DD.
If you have a Titan and your opponent doesn't you get this massive benefit that they do not. If you have a Titan and your opponent does then you both need massive fleets to get the job done and in the end its likely that your sub-capital ships simply don't get to have any fun. For examples of this. See BoB/LV before remote DDs were removed. Their conventional fleet dwindled because it didn't do anything, it just sat around containing the other fleet until it could get remote DD'd.
You might want to say "oh no, it totally prevents blobs". And I am going to say, "no, it prevents fights and if it did not, you personally would in all likelihood be dead right now due to a nuclear war that the world would have waged"
Quote: So you say fielding as many Titans and Motherships as possible is advantageous?
The question is not "should it be advantageous?" the question is "how advantageous should it be?"
Quote: Recognizing the core of the problem, he suggests solutions that bring the capabilities and vulnerabilities of the ship more in line with the role it's meant to have. That's just good reasoning and sound judgement.
Except that Jade isn't recognizing the core of the problem, he is making it worse. That is ****ty reasoning and terrible judgment.
Vote Goumindong for CSM |
Arithron
Gallente Gallente Trade Alliance
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Posted - 2008.05.15 16:15:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Arithron on 15/05/2008 16:15:29 I was wondering, Jade, if you could explain this apparent contradiction for me:
Quote: Current malaise with Eve turning into "capitals online" is because in reality - not many capital ships actually die. Hit and run usage of Titan's is bad for this - so, as I said, nothing much wrong with the AOE doomsday - just ensure the ship that deploys it is committed to the fight and needs a support fleet.
Given that you are proposing that Titans become easier to kill, and that you acknowledge that such losses will impact on the large alliances, can you explain how this will PREVENT blobbing? Large alliances will bring HUGE fleets with a Titan to prevent its loss...
Elsewhere you have stated that you want to see smaller fleet engagements rather than blobs...your ideas for Sovereignty etc. These two different proposals of yours appear to be in conflict with each other?
Many thanks, Bruce Hansen (Arithron)
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Jade Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.05.15 16:17:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Jade Constantine on 15/05/2008 16:26:07
Originally by: Pezzle AOE weapons of this scale promote more blobbing because they impact not simply one or two ships at a time but entire fleets or wings. With smart bombs you can pull out of range and still remain active in that engagement. With a DD you cannot.
No Pezzle, thats a silly argument. Goonswarm have already showed us that Blobbing is not the answer to killing Titans (having failed to kill Shrikes Titan with an uber blob attack that ultimately broke the node and allowed the target to escape.) The answer is quality not quantity, and this is going to become increasingly apparent as alliances present multiple Titans to double up on DD blasts. I'm afraid you just need to accept that you don't shoot a super-capital with a fleet of light ships and ships and expect to win through on pure weight of numbers.
Ultimately you need to fight Titans with capital ships, and the issue that needs addressing is how to keep Titans committed to the fight rather than simply performing drive by DD attacks and escaping. Once Titans start dying in proper numbers to concentrated capital fights then the problem of Titan proliferation is going to reduce - these are very expensive ships and no alliance can handle regular losses in this class for any length of time. They will revert to a flag-ship role in only the most critical of engagements once we have mechanics in game to ensure that once committed they are likely to remain committed until battle outcome is resolved.
CSM Election Manifesto 2008 |
Jade Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.05.15 16:23:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Arithron Given that you are proposing that Titans become easier to kill, and that you acknowledge that such losses will impact on the large alliances, can you explain how this will PREVENT blobbing? Large alliances will bring HUGE fleets with a Titan to prevent its loss... Elsewhere you have stated that you want to see smaller fleet engagements rather than blobs...your ideas for Sovereignty etc. These two different proposals of yours appear to be in conflict with each other?
You can't PREVENT blobbing you can present disincentive to Blobbing. You achieve this best in the current environment by taking sovereignty warfare away from fixed and timed reinforcement battles at POS in favor of more distributed goals separated in space and opportunity and allowing some genuine tactics to enter the equation of force disposition and deployment.
Specific proposals in regard to the Titan are designed to ensure that consequence-free doomdsay deployment is off the table and use of these ships becomes more of an issue economically because entering a battle becomes a significant risk. Though related these two issues are not contradictory.
CSM Election Manifesto 2008 |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.05.15 16:59:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
You can't PREVENT blobbing you can present disincentive to Blobbing
No you cannot you can only present a disincentive to fighting, this law is absolute and axiomatic in cooperative games
Quote: You achieve this best in the current environment by taking sovereignty warfare away from fixed and timed reinforcement battles at POS in favor of more distributed goals separated in space and opportunity and allowing some genuine tactics to enter the equation of force disposition and deployment.
This method promotes blobbing in one way or another and screws over players with assets because eve is not a job and no one should be forced to be online at all times to defend their assets.
Vote Goumindong for CSM |
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Sariyah
HUN Corp. HUN Reloaded
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Posted - 2008.05.15 17:06:00 -
[31]
Let me get this straight, you want to remove titans (or render them useless). You also want to remove nano ships, or render them useless. Use a nano ship, then you can potentially run away from a dd...
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.05.15 17:13:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Sariyah Let me get this straight, you want to remove titans (or render them useless). You also want to remove nano ships, or render them useless. Use a nano ship, then you can potentially run away from a dd...
No. I want to do neither of those things. I want to remove large scale AoEs. And i want to bring nano-ships back in line.
If you would bother to read what i write, or ask me a question in my thread i would be happy to explain in further detail.
Vote Goumindong for CSM |
Kelsin
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.05.15 17:29:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Goumindong No you cannot you can only present a disincentive to fighting, this law is absolute and axiomatic in cooperative games
Goumindong, I think I understand where you're coming from now, and I see the problem with your reasoning across a few issues as being connected. You can't just compare two forces in a single engagement where the only win condition is destruction of the enemy force when considering balance:
A subcapital fleet presented with an enemy Titan has win conditions available other than the destruction of the Titan.
A conventional or RR BS gatecamp has win conditions available other than the destruction of an enemy nano-gang jumping through their gate.
A territory-holding alliance has win conditions available other than the destruction of all enemy forces that cross into their territory.
Trying to balance the game solely around 1 on 1 matchups with total destruction of the enemy force as the goal is folly. There are indeed problems with the Titan, but they're centered around the fact that Sov warfare has such a narrow set of win conditions that bottleneck at the destruction of the Cynojammer, which requires a concentrated fleet and ONLY a concentrated fleet to eliminate.
Introduce distributed goals and stop hinging the fate of an entire conflict on a single battle and you take away the power of a weapon like the DDD because the circumstances in which it can be decisive can be bypassed. If you handle these sorts of issues that way, you can avoid the one-dimensional and unimaginative nerfing/counter-nerfing slog.
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.05.15 17:42:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Kelsin Trying to balance the game solely around 1 on 1 matchups with total destruction of the enemy force as the goal is folly.
I am not. You are making and error when assuming I am defining victory by that value. Everything I am saying holds true with asymmetrical goals as long as you assume reasonable goals to each side.
Hell, with asymmetrical goals the heavy gang always loses to the nano-gang period since in order to win they must limit the nano-gangs ability to move through their space and engage smaller gangs and any gang except nano-gangs are unable to do this.
The titan defending wins even if the BS blob doesn't attack. The titan attacking wins if the BS blob doesn't defend. If it does come to blows then the same problems exists as already explained above since the attackers will be unable to complete their objectives without multiple fleets.
Quote:
Introduce distributed goals and stop hinging the fate of an entire conflict on a single battle and you take away the power of a weapon like the DDD because the circumstances in which it can be decisive can be bypassed. If you handle these sorts of issues that way, you can avoid the one-dimensional and unimaginative nerfing/counter-nerfing slog.
No. You cannot. For two reasons.
1 You cannot bypass it.
2. distributed simultaneous goals promote blobbing.
Vote Goumindong for CSM |
Kelsin
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.05.15 18:11:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Goumindong Hell, with asymmetrical goals the heavy gang always loses to the nano-gang period since in order to win they must limit the nano-gangs ability to move through their space and engage smaller gangs and any gang except nano-gangs are unable to do this.
The titan defending wins even if the BS blob doesn't attack. The titan attacking wins if the BS blob doesn't defend. If it does come to blows then the same problems exists as already explained above since the attackers will be unable to complete their objectives without multiple fleets.
Who says that a heavy gatecamps goal is to prevent the nano-gang from doing anything? They may simply be camping the gate for fun and profit - and if the nano-gang can't stop them from doing that, it's a win.
Likewise, why is a sub-capital gang attacking or defending anything? They're out in enemy territory killing ratters and mining ops. Is the Titan really defending lone ratters in belts?
Quote:
No. You cannot. For two reasons.
1 You cannot bypass it.
2. distributed simultaneous goals promote blobbing.
First - the point of the statement was that the solution is to create alternate paths so that the large single battle is not the only option. So yes, if that solution was employed you could bypass it.
Second - how on earth do distributed goals promote blobbing? Can I ask what doesn't promote blobbing in your mind?
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Max Torps
Gallente eXceed Inc. eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.05.15 18:22:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Anonymos CEO
With the ongoing Discussion about titans, brought up by KIAEddz in CAOD (http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=766895) I wanted to ask all Candidates, what their views are on Titans and Titan Warfare?
I like the concept of having anti-blob vessels such as the titans with the doomsday device (even though already nerfed once), however with the titans now becoming so commonplace they casually pop gangs of 10 and we don't even capitalise their ship class name anymore or discuss with awe, it's time to discuss change.
Quote:
What would the candidates try to change?
The functionality needs to change. The DD needs to go in its current form as the intended use is being trivialised.
I would be against advocating change so sweeping as to turn a titan into a pos hugger though. I think perhaps revisit the station facilities idea coupled with an AOE wide spectrum EMP field that disables surrounding enemy vessels for a time. Perhaps firing this also disables propulsion for the titan for a while. Allow the titan during this time to launch fighters (why not?) and have a low range DD? There is definitely a raft of ideas. I'm fairly certain CCP have a Plan C but if not players are an inventive lot, aren't we?
Quote: What would you bring up to CCP, if it comes down to a discussion about titans.
I would emphasise the importance of retaining a reward element to the players who have worked hard in producing such ships so any alteration would have to be carefully thought through and provide a good, fun and valuable alternative function.
Vote for me here Candidate thread here Website here
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.05.15 18:31:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Kelsin
Who says that a heavy gatecamps goal is to prevent the nano-gang from doing anything? They may simply be camping the gate for fun and profit - and if the nano-gang can't stop them from doing that, it's a win.
No, its a tie. Because their goal is to get kills and they have not.
Quote: Likewise, why is a sub-capital gang attacking or defending anything? They're out in enemy territory killing ratters and mining ops. Is the Titan really defending lone ratters in belts?
Are you seriously asking why sub-capital gangs should be attacking or defending anything?
Seriously?
Quote:
First - the point of the statement was that the solution is to create alternate paths so that the large single battle is not the only option. So yes, if that solution was employed you could bypass it.
Second - how on earth do distributed goals promote blobbing? Can I ask what doesn't promote blobbing in your mind?
No, unless you assume you can't defend objectives.
Distributed simultaneous goals promote blobbing because optimal play will have one side split up by necessity while the other does not.
pretty much the only thing that doesn't promote blobbing is personal rewards that decline as more people are added in excess of the reduced risk.
Vote Goumindong for CSM |
Kelsin
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.05.15 18:42:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Goumindong Are you seriously asking why sub-capital gangs should be attacking or defending anything?
I'm asking why they are in your example. Your examples continually assume that each side must destroy the other side to achieve success. There are many matchups where this is just not the case.
Quote: Distributed simultaneous goals promote blobbing because optimal play will have one side split up by necessity while the other does not.
Splittng up is the opposite of blobbing. Consider a regional sovereignty whereby there are 9 points distributed throughout a region. Sov is given to whoever controls 5 of 9 points. Where is blobbing the optimal strategy in either taking OR holding the region?
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.05.15 18:47:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Kelsin
I'm asking why they are in your example. Your examples continually assume that each side must destroy the other side to achieve success. There are many matchups where this is just not the case.
There are not really any meaningful encounters where something isn't getting blown up, moved past, put up, or stolen.
Quote:
Splittng up is the opposite of blobbing. Consider a regional sovereignty whereby there are 9 points distributed throughout a region. Sov is given to whoever controls 5 of 9 points. Where is blobbing the optimal strategy in either taking OR holding the region?
You send feelers out to the 9 points then blob the **** out of one of the points that is capped. Leave a feeler at that point and blob the **** out of the next one.
Vote Goumindong for CSM |
Kelsin
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.05.15 18:59:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Kelsin
Splittng up is the opposite of blobbing. Consider a regional sovereignty whereby there are 9 points distributed throughout a region. Sov is given to whoever controls 5 of 9 points. Where is blobbing the optimal strategy in either taking OR holding the region?
You send feelers out to the 9 points then blob the **** out of one of the points that is capped. Leave a feeler at that point and blob the **** out of the next one.
Your opponent would send 1/9 of his forces to every point, and while your blob is hitting one or two points he'd capture the other 7 or 8.
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.05.15 19:09:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Kelsin
Your opponent would send 1/9 of his forces to every point, and while your blob is hitting one or two points he'd capture the other 7 or 8.
If you only need to hold the point for that long then its impossible to defend, since you defend 1/9 and they blob 5/9 giving them a 9/5 advantage.
I.E. a blob.
Vote Goumindong for CSM |
Pezzle
Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2008.05.15 20:12:00 -
[42]
Silly? Cap ships are meant as support and heavy hitting against strategic objectives (towers and the like). Conventional ships are the weakness of Cap ships. You need conventionals to protect your cap ships. The problem is we all figured out that cap ships (in this case mostly carriers motherships and titans) could in essence be their own support fleet and destroy conventional ships (cap blobs and DD).
Cap ships should be terrible at fighting most anything, even each other. Right now they are used as weapons against fleets.
If we want to change the game up and redefine ship roles ok, if we want a Titan to obliterate cap fleets.. well ok. But then what are the conventionals for? If a Titan becomes the cap destroyer what is the weakness? A warp timer is not effective. That will only encourage Titan owners to bring enough Titans in at once to ensure nothing will remain on the field, a direction we are moving in already ;)
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Kelsin
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.05.15 20:35:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Kelsin
Your opponent would send 1/9 of his forces to every point, and while your blob is hitting one or two points he'd capture the other 7 or 8.
If you only need to hold the point for that long then its impossible to defend, since you defend 1/9 and they blob 5/9 giving them a 9/5 advantage.
I.E. a blob.
I think you're mixing your use of fractions there. If you're saying the optimal strategy is to attack 5 of 9 points, then you're correct. But that's not a blob, that's splitting your forces 5 ways. And the optimal defensive strategy is to split your force 5 ways as well.
Even if it's only a matter of achieving 2 of 3 simultaneous objectives to win, you've just split 1 massive battle into two smaller simultaneous battles, cutting the pressure on the server and potential damage to your forces from a single Titan in half. CCP is already looking into simultaneous objectives to reduce the incidence of strain due to massive single-grid battles - it's not a radical proposal and it's the sort of thing that allows the Titan to maintain it's single-battle epicness without having the fate of an entire region hinge on a handful of Doomsday blasts.
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.05.15 21:01:00 -
[44]
If you split 5/9 your opponent just blobs 1 and you lose.
And yea, it is "blobbing".
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Kelsin
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.05.15 21:16:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Goumindong If you split 5/9 your opponent just blobs 1 and you lose.
And yea, it is "blobbing".
If one side puts all their forces on one point, they leave the other 8 unattended and lose.
In the end there's an equilibrium - follow the game to it's end and you'll find it. Blobbing would be a suboptimal strategy when you need to achieve multiple simultaneous objectives. There's two different outcomes depending on whether you're allowed counter-moves, but the end result is one side captures 5 points by splitting their forces and it comes down to the results of 5 individual battles instead of one big battle. |
Joseph 9
Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades
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Posted - 2008.05.15 21:20:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Kelsin
Originally by: Goumindong If you split 5/9 your opponent just blobs 1 and you lose.
And yea, it is "blobbing".
If one side puts all their forces on one point, they leave the other 8 unattended and lose.
In the end there's an equilibrium - follow the game to it's end and you'll find it. Blobbing would be a suboptimal strategy when you need to achieve multiple simultaneous objectives. There's two different outcomes depending on whether you're allowed counter-moves, but the end result is one side captures 5 points by splitting their forces and it comes down to the results of 5 individual battles instead of one big battle.
Large numbers of Titans will break this game dynamic. You cannot have truely simultanious objectives as some battles will take longer than others. Therefore victory at a number of points would need to be achieved over a period of time. You thus bring the largest fleet you can to the battle and jump bridge from Target to Target using your 8,9,10... however many... Titans. At each stage you are either facing an undefended control point, a smaller fleet, or your enemies full fleet. Either way blobbing plus titans wins.
There are ways around this of course but they are complex and thus difficult to balance.
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Kelsin
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.05.15 21:26:00 -
[47]
Yeah Joseph, it totally depends on making the objectives truly distributed and parallel. If you can hit them in series then yes, it is possible and optimal to blob.
But the point being it's very easy to design a system in which blobbing is suboptimal. |
Joseph 9
Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades
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Posted - 2008.05.15 21:33:00 -
[48]
Edited by: Joseph 9 on 15/05/2008 21:34:03 Can I get you to sketch out such a system please? Maybe I'm being dim but I can't envision one that isn't complicated and of most fun to fleet planners over small gang fcs? Ideally you want a system that requires fleet level co-ordination, tactical inventiveness from FC's on the ground, intelligent piloting from fleet members (which actually comes quite naturally in small gang warfare tbh) and forces non-serial game play.
I am very chary of truly simultanious events in Eve given the distributted nature of the server and the likelyhood of tasks taking longer in some areas than others. The most viable option I can see is a UT style domination game mechanic... but I'll stop answering my own question now and let other people do it.
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.05.15 21:58:00 -
[49]
Edited by: Goumindong on 15/05/2008 22:00:53 Edited by: Goumindong on 15/05/2008 21:59:16
Originally by: Kelsin
Originally by: Goumindong If you split 5/9 your opponent just blobs 1 and you lose.
And yea, it is "blobbing".
If one side puts all their forces on one point, they leave the other 8 unattended and lose.
Why? They have prevented the opponent in securing the necessary space.
Originally by: Kelsin Yeah Joseph, it totally depends on making the objectives truly distributed and parallel. If you can hit them in series then yes, it is possible and optimal to blob.
you can only do that with instancing.
Originally by: Kelsin Blobbing would be a suboptimal strategy when you need to achieve multiple simultaneous objectives
No, blobbing only becomes sub-optimal for one side. It becomes even better for the other.
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Kelsin
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.05.15 22:08:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Joseph 9 Edited by: Joseph 9 on 15/05/2008 21:34:03 Can I get you to sketch out such a system please? Maybe I'm being dim but I can't envision one that isn't complicated and of most fun to fleet planners over small gang fcs? Ideally you want a system that requires fleet level co-ordination, tactical inventiveness from FC's on the ground, intelligent piloting from fleet members (which actually comes quite naturally in small gang warfare tbh) and forces non-serial game play.
Well a pretty straightforward one would be if the rewards for territory control were based on cumulative control of Stargates. I posted an elaboration on it here: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=761137&page=1#14
And I should say that parallel objectives don't have to be the requirement - they just need to be an option, so that a fleet facing a Titan-equipped enemy could choose to pursue small gang objectives (like splitting up and contesting stargates spread out across a region) instead of being bottlenecked into a single fight on a single grid where they must face the Titan.
By allowing Alliances playing the territorial combat game to shift between two strategies - parallel or series conquest - you open up new tactics beyond blob on blob, because one side can choose to split up into smaller gangs to pursue objectives in different directions, and the other has to decide whether to also split up to match them. Right now there aren't objectives for small gangs to pursue because the entry level for territorial combat is so high it takes all the forces you can muster to assault a single cynojammer.
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Kelsin
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.05.15 22:13:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Goumindong No, blobbing only becomes sub-optimal for one side. It becomes even better for the other.
You're assuming only one side has to achieve multiple objectives. Territory can also go neutral if no one controls a majority.
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.05.15 22:14:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Kelsin
Originally by: Goumindong No, blobbing only becomes sub-optimal for one side. It becomes even better for the other.
You're assuming only one side has to achieve multiple objectives. Territory can also go neutral if no one controls a majority.
Neutral is the same thing as winning in this case. Ergo only one side has to achieve multiple objectives.
Vote Goumindong for CSM |
Kelsin
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.05.15 22:20:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Goumindong Neutral is the same thing as winning in this case. Ergo only one side has to achieve multiple objectives.
That's not really so. Side A can take control, Side B can take control, or neither can succeed in taking/retaining control. Those are three distinct results.
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.05.15 22:24:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Kelsin
Originally by: Goumindong Neutral is the same thing as winning in this case. Ergo only one side has to achieve multiple objectives.
That's not really so. Side A can take control, Side B can take control, or neither can succeed in taking/retaining control. Those are three distinct results.
Not regional control as you describe unless you want to tie the sov in all systems into a single engagement...
And that isn't even getting into the problems with making these points and scaling them down to system level.
Vote Goumindong for CSM |
Kelsin
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.05.15 22:29:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Goumindong Not regional control as you describe unless you want to tie the sov in all systems into a single engagement...
And that isn't even getting into the problems with making these points and scaling them down to system level.
Well, we're doing thought experiments about re-imagining territorial warfare, so the only restriction is our imaginations. My suggestion can be seen in the link above.
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.05.15 22:45:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Kelsin
Originally by: Goumindong Not regional control as you describe unless you want to tie the sov in all systems into a single engagement...
And that isn't even getting into the problems with making these points and scaling them down to system level.
Well, we're doing thought experiments about re-imagining territorial warfare, so the only restriction is our imaginations. My suggestion can be seen in the link above.
The only limitation in your imagination is your imagination. There are a lot more if you want to actually be useful. Please don't be useless.
Vote Goumindong for CSM |
Jade Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.05.17 12:54:00 -
[57]
Any more CSM candidates prepared to express an opinion about what they think should be done about Titan balance in this thread?
I've seen,
Zoolkan Max Torps Ben Derider And Myself
Actually answer the question so far.
CSM Manifesto 2008 | Destroy Outposts! |
Jade Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.05.18 13:50:00 -
[58]
Quick update:
Actual battle-reports of a 3 Titan "blob" on the live-server. Interesting background reading for candidates expressing an opinion in this thread. Maybe "goon" Titan's don't need a "nerf"
Just saying
CSM Manifesto 2008 | Destroy Outposts! |
Arithron
Gallente Gallente Trade Alliance
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Posted - 2008.05.18 16:40:00 -
[59]
Titans don't need a nerf- the server-side just needs some work so that epic battles actually allow pilots to fire and move more than a few frames per second (if you are lucky).
Some of us have not chosen to express a verbose opinion since this area affects such a small amount of pilots, and I am sure they want bigger battles....(see above)
The election to the CSM council is for us to LISTEN to opinions and ideas of the players foremost...not to listen to ourselves waffling on about things we shouldn't be commenting on (as some candidates even admit they have never flown a titan).
Take care, Bruce Hansen (Arithron)
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posteroid
im right your wrong
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Posted - 2008.05.18 17:32:00 -
[60]
Id say the loss of a titan while there were initially 3 on grid (the other 2 left to avoid getting popped as well) shows that you do not need faction fits to destroy them when more than 2 are deployed.
Although im still of the mind that the DDD needs a range reduction to 100-150km thus giving sniper BS the ability to kill cyno jammers or get position on a titan outside DDD range. I also agree that titans will not stop blobbing as it is and always will be the preferred style of fighting for the lazy/skill less (and so for most players in eve). But they do and will prevent zerging (blobbing with crappy t1 ships) for space even if the DDD range is only reduced instead of removed.
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Scatim Helicon
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.05.18 21:37:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Jade Constantine Actual battle-reports of a 3 Titan "blob" on the live-server. Interesting background reading for candidates expressing an opinion in this thread. Maybe "goon" Titan's don't need a "nerf"
You're suggesting that Titans are balanced because every so often one dies to the lag/desynch wildcard? -----------
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.05.18 21:42:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Scatim Helicon
Originally by: Jade Constantine Actual battle-reports of a 3 Titan "blob" on the live-server. Interesting background reading for candidates expressing an opinion in this thread. Maybe "goon" Titan's don't need a "nerf"
You're suggesting that Titans are balanced because every so often one dies to the lag/desynch wildcard?
No, he is suggesting Titans should be boosted and made into capital killers as well as whole fleet killers because every so often one dies to the lag/desynch wildcard.
Vote Goumindong for CSM |
Sariyah
HUN Corp. HUN Reloaded
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Posted - 2008.05.18 22:17:00 -
[63]
Quote: lag/desynch wildcard.
This is getting a real old excuse. Grow up and accept if you lose. I remember sometimes saying (joking) that my mouse was dirty when I got killed in Quake by my friends (didn't have optical mouse back then). We always laughed about it.
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Jade Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.05.19 01:16:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Scatim Helicon
Originally by: Jade Constantine Actual battle-reports of a 3 Titan "blob" on the live-server. Interesting background reading for candidates expressing an opinion in this thread. Maybe "goon" Titan's don't need a "nerf"
You're suggesting that Titans are balanced because every so often one dies to the lag/desynch wildcard?
Suggest you read my posts (directly under the op). When you've done that - lets talk
CSM Manifesto 2008 | Destroy Outposts! |
zykerx
Pegasus Mining and Securities R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2008.05.22 17:54:00 -
[65]
i agree with goons about the titan
if alliances gets big amounts of titans and then have cynojamemrs up wel good luck with attacking them o.0 .
"MY COMMENTS IN NO WAY REFLECT MY CORP OR ALLIANCE"
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Herring
Alcatraz Inc. Tactical Narcotics Team
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Posted - 2008.05.23 10:09:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Goumindong
pretty much the only thing that doesn't promote blobbing is personal rewards that decline as more people are added in excess of the reduced risk.
Can you be a little more clear there? Ie in your mind, what is the solution to the blob problem? I know you hate the largescale aoe's, but you seem a wee bit more critical than you are constructive. What is the logical solution?
Boost patch...nerfs: 1) faction passive shield resistance amplifiers, 2) exploration radar sites, 3) faction co-processors |
Jeirth
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.05.28 21:19:00 -
[67]
What will happen 6 months to a year from now, when all large alliances have multiple titan fleets? How will new blood, young corps or alliances, ever hope to carve themselves a space in 0.0? Will they have to join one of the existing Alliances? Hope to get lucky and pick up some pilots with Titans? Will the political structure of Eve become cast in stone? Personally, I fear for the future.
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Pur3Bl00D
Volition Cult The Volition Cult
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Posted - 2008.06.01 11:44:00 -
[68]
just throwing another idea at the table.
Make the "focused script" anti-capital weapon thingy actually damaging significantly the titan firing it himself (as if the focused DD energy is too much for the ship to handle). The dmg would have to be percentage-wise, e.x. 20% of remaining HP, so multiple hits will not render the titan useless and a 2% reduction to that dmg from a new high rank titan-only skill.
But give it great alpha, as in popping carriers (at least) in one hit, ECM effect to the ship being hit and energy neutralizing on top.
This may bring tactical options up, as in fleet logistics for the titan that will need to be repaired, energy transfered, protected e.t.c.
P.S. or i may just talk crap all along :P
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Aranthi
Phoenix Royal Family Phoenix Kingdom
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Posted - 2008.06.02 17:25:00 -
[69]
Edited by: Aranthi on 02/06/2008 17:26:32 Ok my opiniion about the topic:
* A titan is a 50B-150B asset depending on fittings and manufacturing costs so making it 3x-6x more expensive then a mothership and 250x-750x more expensive then a fitted tier2 battleship. Therefor I think it's only fair that it is nearly impossible to kill.
* Yes it is true that only rich well established alliances can get their hands on 1 or more and therefor making them even harder to defeat and thus inbalancing the game. But like in every MMORPG, the best and most difficult things to obtain are not for poorly organized clans-guilds-corporations or for casual players, but for the best of the best and thus making them even better.
* Ofcourse there always should be an opening for the underdog to win and thefefor I think introducing an only carriermodule to tackle capitalships could be the answer for bringing balance and giving the underdogs the chance to destroy supercapitals. Ofcourse this again should be outbalanced ofcourse by increasing the damage multiplier on titans for capital gun turrets as it can never be the intention for a carrier to solo kill a titan. So bottom line give them the chance to tackle until help is there or die trying to keep it tackled long enough.
* Titans combined with Sov 4 combined with cynojammer is in my opinion a bit overkill. But I think it can be solved by either not allowing titans in systems with a cynojammer or only making POS structures inside the POS shield indestructible.
PS: I have no experience with capital fights or titans so I base my personal opinion on information and post I read.
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