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Atrial Quartz
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Posted - 2008.06.12 03:41:00 -
[1]
Ok maybe i am just some old spacer who totally lost the plot, but is it just me or is everyone else getting tired of the insane mathematical equations involved in ship fittings. and what modules nerf what other modules. the magical combinations of skill X and mod Y that give people a unbeatable edge in PvP.
Also aside from 1 or 2 fittings why should a PVE ship be so vastly out gunned by a PVP ship? inane speeds on large vessels, ridiculous tanks. Where is it all going? cant we have some simplicity to make combat more open to casual players?
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Surfin's PlunderBunny
Metafarmers
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Posted - 2008.06.12 03:42:00 -
[2]
It's not magical... it's mathematics
I like it... it means you have to have half a brain to do well
() () (â;..;)â (")(") |
DubanFP
Four Rings Souls of Vengeance
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Posted - 2008.06.12 03:43:00 -
[3]
Edited by: DubanFP on 12/06/2008 03:45:25
Originally by: Atrial Quartz Ok maybe i am just some old spacer who totally lost the plot, but is it just me or is everyone else getting tired of the insane mathematical equations involved in ship fittings. and what modules nerf what other modules. the magical combinations of skill X and mod Y that give people a unbeatable edge in PvP.
Also aside from 1 or 2 fittings why should a PVE ship be so vastly out gunned by a PVP ship? inane speeds on large vessels, ridiculous tanks. Where is it all going? cant we have some simplicity to make combat more open to casual players?
Then you'll be screwing the players that are smart enough to like complexity. Makes it easy to kill those who can't handle it, like yourself. Sorry but there's A LOT of us who enjoy winning with our minds, and not just because we spent Eighty-nine million hours playing. _______________
ReiAyanami> We bring you tidings of AARRRRRRRRR |
Atrial Quartz
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Posted - 2008.06.12 03:49:00 -
[4]
Originally by: DubanFP Then you'll be screwing the players that like the complexity.
it changes every few months, like some arbitrary fickle god was screwing with the reality behind the game. i have respeced so many times i lost count and i still only fly gallente ships.
It's the KISS principal. Keep It Simple, Stupid. over complicating a system never makes it better. and in eve's case just leads to a ship-de-joure style of play where one or two builds will be combat effective for a given role ant the rest of the hundreds of items in that category are just useless trash.
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Acies Invictus
SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2008.06.12 03:49:00 -
[5]
Wait, I thought this was Counterstrike in space...
Reason most PvP fits "outgun" PvE fits: Gank v Tank
Since when was EVE simple? And why should it ever get simple? _______________________________________________ Human beings didn't evolve brains in order to lie around on lakes. Killing's the first thing we learned. And a good thing we did, or we'd be dead. |
Atrial Quartz
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Posted - 2008.06.12 03:59:00 -
[6]
i should have known better than to pose this question to the tourny-fags
problem is no matter how i fit a ship it cant stand up to the min maxed twink ships and gankers out there that just copy-paste fits from this board for their specific ship. the amount of math required to fit an effective ship is bordering on mind numbing.
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Ecky X
Universal Securities
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Posted - 2008.06.12 04:01:00 -
[7]
Before EFT, I worked out all of my fittings in notepad, doing the math the hard way. I always won fights, even if the players I was fighting had 5x as much SP. Now, it's simple to figure out a good fit, thanks to EFT. It makes me mad that people don't fold like paper anymore.
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85 Echo
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.06.12 04:05:00 -
[8]
I don't know a lot of pilots who sit around and grind through the equations, most people just use eve fitting tool and some experience.
Also, part of the reason for things like stacking penalties is to stop people from min maxing ships so much.
I do agree though, pve ship fittings shouldn't be so totally unlike pvp ship fittings. It would be nice if missions called for more variety, but I guess then people couldn't solo them, and there would be a riot.
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Atrial Quartz
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Posted - 2008.06.12 04:12:00 -
[9]
Originally by: 85 Echo but I guess then people couldn't solo them, and there would be a riot.
Heaven forbid people work together in a MMO. that's Harasy |
Jmanis Catharg
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.06.12 04:20:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Jmanis Catharg on 12/06/2008 04:22:05
Quote:
problem is no matter how i fit a ship it cant stand up to the min maxed twink ships and gankers out there that just copy-paste fits from this board for their specific ship. the amount of math required to fit an effective ship is bordering on mind numbing.
Y'know, you remind me of the people I used to face in RTS games. "You ****ing noob rusher, get some real skills" as I pop their last structure. If my opponents were actually capable of preventing an early game rush, or forced me to engage their own rush with my own forces, it generally meant they were a semi-competent player, and this would result in exciting, drawn out battles.
So you made a fit whose weakest resist was EM and they dealt EM, you fit for ECM and they had an ECCM, you fitted for cap warfare and their fit was cap-neutral. So what? Build a damn bridge.
The variety of fits possible out there is what makes EVE awesome. |
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Hannobaal
Shadow Forces Inc.
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Posted - 2008.06.12 04:24:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Hannobaal on 12/06/2008 04:24:22 All it takes to know how to fit ships in Eve is a little bit of experience and some common sense. The basic principles of Eve combat are really pretty simple. |
Mankirks Wife
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Posted - 2008.06.12 04:28:00 -
[12]
Once in a while I see one of those topics on the internets that just makes me go "Wow, that was ********." Grats to the op for 10 seconds of entertainment. |
Surfin's PlunderBunny
Metafarmers
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Posted - 2008.06.12 04:29:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Atrial Quartz
Originally by: 85 Echo but I guess then people couldn't solo them, and there would be a riot.
Heaven forbid people work together in a MMO. that's Harasy
Heresy |
Apoctasy
The Python Cartel
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Posted - 2008.06.12 05:02:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Surfin's PlunderBunny It's not magical... it's mathematics
I like it... it means you have to have half a brain to do well
this.
Oh and OP, WOW is that way ----> |
Modrak Vseth
Veto.
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Posted - 2008.06.12 05:45:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Atrial Quartz
it changes every few months, like some arbitrary fickle god was screwing with the reality behind the game. i have respeced so many times i lost count and i still only fly gallente ships.
So stop trying to fly FOTM. You'll never "catch up" if that's how you view PvP.
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Epegi Givo
Demon Theory
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Posted - 2008.06.12 05:59:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Apoctasy
Originally by: Surfin's PlunderBunny It's not magical... it's mathematics
I like it... it means you have to have half a brain to do well
this.
Oh and OP, WOW is that way ---->
and 3 steps further you will find SWG!
agreed, One thing I love about EVE is how it isn't super simple, you actually have to balance many factors to come up with a good setup, you actually have to work your poor neglected brain! |
Keorythe
Terra Rosa Militia Sev3rance
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Posted - 2008.06.12 06:02:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Atrial Quartz Also aside from 1 or 2 fittings why should a PVE ship be so vastly out gunned by a PVP ship? inane speeds on large vessels, ridiculous tanks. Where is it all going? cant we have some simplicity to make combat more open to casual players?
You like many other PvE'ers have this problem with PvP that stems from your belief that it is judged by "duel" standards. Unfortunately EvE is not like that. While a single setup is somewhat effective it is nowhere near as effective as fleet role specific setups. Even an uber l33t fitted Vagabond can be taken down by a T1 fitted blackbird and taranis combo if the pilots know their stuff. Shall we even bring up the infamous Hulk or Badgers of death immortalized by video?
EvE isn't about two guys in a ring slugging it out. Its more about 3 guys working together to catch, pin, and beat down a single guy. |
Riho
Mercenary Forces
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Posted - 2008.06.12 06:03:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Atrial Quartz Ok maybe i am just some old spacer who totally lost the plot, but is it just me or is everyone else getting tired of the insane mathematical equations involved in ship fittings. and what modules nerf what other modules. the magical combinations of skill X and mod Y that give people a unbeatable edge in PvP.
Also aside from 1 or 2 fittings why should a PVE ship be so vastly out gunned by a PVP ship? inane speeds on large vessels, ridiculous tanks. Where is it all going? cant we have some simplicity to make combat more open to casual players?
thats what makes eve interesting... your choises matter.
i dont want this to be WoW where u grind your way to a sertain gear and the end... |
auverne
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Posted - 2008.06.12 06:09:00 -
[19]
no, go away, i started playing this game because it looked complex and you want to take my fun away from me :( me no like you ^^
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Xparky
Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2008.06.12 06:16:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Xparky on 12/06/2008 06:17:08 You got eft and you still think it's complicated ? Grow a brain, maybe . |
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Faife
Noctiscion
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Posted - 2008.06.12 06:24:00 -
[21]
i LOVE the complexity. absolutely what got me into eve.
i'm the sort of person who does capacitor vs usage graphs, and runs them through monte carlo DPS simulators to see if a caldari navy XL booster will be better than a T2, and at what capacitance recharge rate does the CL booster's lower cap cost becomes enough to perma-run (assuming occasional tractor).
keep in mind that while the T2 does use more cap, it also does more boost (specially with boost amps) so needs to be triggered less, so actually uses less CAP in some cases.
i cannot get this not only from any other MMO, but almost from any other game.
(for the other complexity junkies, check out Dwarf Fortress. it's a freeware. it's a great game if you say to yourself "sure, i want a simcity where i can drop cows 200 feet, but when i do, i want all the guts to be modeled accurately as to how far up they bounce back")
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Ishquar Teh'Sainte
Tri Optimum Ev0ke
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Posted - 2008.06.12 06:30:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Atrial Quartz cant we have some simplicity to make combat more open to casual players?
well .. it's quite simple tbh.
a.) you need a scout/tackler - web, scram & MWD needed b.) you need someone to deal damage c.) EW support can be handy to increase the survival rate of your ships
there ya go.
why are NPCing setups inferior to PvP setups? because most NPCer don't think in PvP terms. they just think "all i have to think about are NPCs" ... well, no surprise when your setup has *big* resistance holes, utility slots that are filled by tractor beams/salvager. tractor beams & salvagers won't win you fights, heavy neuts might do :P
___________________
-Skellibjalla- Life is a garden of perceptions. Pick your fruit.
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Kravick Drasari
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Posted - 2008.06.12 06:40:00 -
[23]
Originally by: 85 Echo Also, part of the reason for things like stacking penalties is to stop people from min maxing ships so much.
I'd have to say theres also some balance involved. Can you imagine what kind of damage a blaster fitted Megathron with 7 Magnetic Field Stabilizers IIs in the lows could do without diminishing returns? Or any other ships for that matter. |
Jowen Datloran
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2008.06.12 08:15:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Atrial Quartz
problem is no matter how i fit a ship it cant stand up to the min maxed twink ships and gankers out there that just copy-paste fits from this board for their specific ship. the amount of math required to fit an effective ship is bordering on mind numbing.
What kind of nonsense is this?
You complain that you not can match their twinked ships and that the mathematics to make those twinks are too mind numbing. AND at the same time you state that they are just copy-pasting their setup of these boards, which requires no skill at all.
What is stopping YOU from copy-pasting a ship setup from the boards if you find making the ideal fit so complicated? You sure your mind numbness is not due to something different? |
Tippia
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.06.12 09:08:00 -
[25]
Copy-paste ship setups?
Yes, you'll see a lot of those in PVE, since the opposition never changes, and every fight is based around the same basic strategy:
1. Tank your ass off. 2. Do at least enough DOT to break the enemy's tank. 3. Go make a sandwich while they die.
You will always face vastly more numerous, but vastly weaker enemies, so the tank vs. gank decision always lands on the "tank" side. You never have to worry about EWar, since NPC:s don't use the same mechanics, and there's no point in trying to counter it. You never really have to worry about omni-tanking vs. hoping for a particular damage type, or about hoping you're packing the right weapon - you know their damage types and damage weaknesses before going into battle. You never have to plan contingencies for surpises - you always know what's coming. You rarely have to worry about nasty multi-prong attack combinations, since you can usually pick and choose your aggro.
…none of this holds true for PvP (apart from the FOTM), and going for standard fits there just makes you a more predicable (aka easier) target. |
Fon Revedhort
Aeria Gloris Inc United Legion
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Posted - 2008.06.12 09:13:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Fon Revedhort on 12/06/2008 09:14:42
LOL, PvE ships may suck only if YOU make them such. For instance, who can you blame for fitting these stupid cap relays, cap rechargers etc. other then yourself? It's evident that wasting so many slots for nothing gets you into trouble when you face a correct setup.
Also, what do you really expect to achieve when fitting salgaver and tractor beam to, say, abaddon, while it's just bound to have 8 guns? Sure thing, you'll get outgunned.
And so on.
Just admit it: you make those primitive cap-stable setups, which you think are not a cookie-cutter ones? Do you really expect them to be competative with decent ones?
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Silver Night
Naqam
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Posted - 2008.06.12 09:14:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Kravick Drasari
Originally by: 85 Echo Also, part of the reason for things like stacking penalties is to stop people from min maxing ships so much.
I'd have to say theres also some balance involved. Can you imagine what kind of damage a blaster fitted Megathron with 7 Magnetic Field Stabilizers IIs in the lows could do without diminishing returns? Or any other ships for that matter.
There used to be something called a Gankageddon. It was like being touched by God. The bad touch though.
One of the big reasons for the stacking nerf. |
Karlemgne
Tides Of War Visions of Warfare
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Posted - 2008.06.12 09:28:00 -
[28]
I understand what you are saying, I really do. So much time these days is fitting ships in EFT and barking at others about DPS, cap stability to the second, DPS and defensive scores.
That's not why I play eve, and its annoying to have some forum whoring dude who's never flown a particular ship lecturing others about their fittings based on what he or she did on EFT.
The truth of the matter though is that despite eve being a game of percentages, such micro managing of setups provides only the most marginal of advantages. Not only does skill, reaction time, and combat experience play a role in the outcomes of combat in eve, but pvp is dynamic. You never know what you're going to run into, what the other person as fit, or how a situation is going to change.
-K
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Julio Torres
Phantom Squad Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.06.12 09:42:00 -
[29]
Sorry, but theres NO one way to fit a ship correctly. There is several "themes" to fit them around.
But in the end, to do well, it must be fit to your play style. As a example, theres many ways to fit a Nano-rapier. Ofcourse you can learn to fly a described fit, but it will often be a expensive lesson
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Sakura Nihil
Stimulus
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Posted - 2008.06.12 09:44:00 -
[30]
Combine personal experience with the tools EFT give you to make setups, and try to ignore the equations.
When in doubt, check Scrapheap's setups for a bit of an idea as to where to begin with a certain ship.
Goal Line Blitz, an American Football browser game. |
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