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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Illaria
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Posted - 2008.06.17 08:07:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Martin VanBuren Yo illaria are you just copy pasting that from michael moore's website or are you actually 13 years old
No, I'm a filthy European commie. I think we had this already established? ---- Darius Johnson, not MY CSM. |
Aleksandr Cirtus
Stronghold corp CORPVS DELICTI
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Posted - 2008.06.17 11:28:00 -
[32]
Um, the chair was the one with the most votes, and not lack of bias, amirite? If most of eve hate people for not being them, doesn't it fit that's exactly the representation being displayed? :P You removed bits of smack against Jade, hrm. If somebody smacks and gets smacked, guess what, that's good. What's not good is posting your propagandist bs in a forum meant for their communication, not yours. Everyone (but anyone lacking higher brain function apparently) knows this whole CSM bunk isn't meant to do anything. It's CCPs little mindgame within a mindgame called EVE.
Cheers, Sig removed, it didn't brake the forums, my mistake. -Mitnal Ack, my car haas nein brakes! Bang zoom, straight to the third moon of Omicron Persei 8! |
Qual
Cornexant Research
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Posted - 2008.06.17 11:45:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Batwigg
Is it really acceptable for a CSM Chair to be openly biased against two of his fellow voted representatives? And to openly admit this in a crowded local chat?
Well, its not as bad as having two members in the counsil who are clearly biased against CCP...
"The short version: Qual is right." -Papa Smurf |
Denebola Rises
Regalis Industria Scientia Entreprendre Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2008.06.17 12:17:00 -
[34]
Like most politics in real life, too often the most vocal are mainly interested in only hearing their own voices. Seems like CCP and Eve-Online have found yet another way to assist in making eve-online mirror aspects of life.
Parliamentary rules sound like an excellent suggestion. But mainly I hope we voters learn from this so that when a second council is chosen, we will better understand what we may end up getting.
And, perhaps rather than assuming that the most votes means chairman, someone from CCP chair the sessions (non voting) - until such time that the council have had the time to select their own chairperson from within the group.
Well, be back in a week to see if anything constructive has been approached.
CCP : thanks for the oppurtunity to fail - as well as succeed.
And to anyone else who follows the CSM with even mild interest. Remember the start, evaluate the finish, and see how you could better vote next time.
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Scagga Laebetrovo
Ammatar Free Corps
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Posted - 2008.06.17 12:51:00 -
[35]
Ya know this kind of straight talking is what people have been begging today's rl politicians for....seems like batwigg is unhappy he didn't get some beat-round-the-bush politician bs spiel.
San Matari Official forums |
Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.06.17 13:05:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Scagga Laebetrovo Ya know this kind of straight talking is what people have been begging today's rl politicians for....seems like batwigg is unhappy he didn't get some beat-round-the-bush politician bs spiel.
Funny thing about "straight-taking politicians" is the way they make certain loud minorities weep bitter tears when they get told what the politician actually thinks.
CSM Manifesto 2008 | Destroy Outposts! |
Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.06.17 13:34:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Jade Constantine on 17/06/2008 13:35:32
Originally by: Denebola Rises And, perhaps rather than assuming that the most votes means chairman, someone from CCP chair the sessions (non voting) - until such time that the council have had the time to select their own chairperson from within the group.
I agree with you here actually. The role of chair would be better handled by some kind of non-voting ccp-employee in my opinion. Since all the CSM reps (myself included) have our own votes and interest and aspirations for the game then it sits poorly to have the chair combined with a voting position. Still, I've tried to address this concern in meetings 4/5 by calling the other reps to do the introduction, debate moderation, call to vote on their own Issues and I've only stepped in when asked to by the leading involved rep.
I'd invite your to compare and contrast the stormy meeting 3
With the far smoother and less arguementative meeting 4 and meeting 5
And while speaking of "constructive outcomes" I'd remind you that over the 3 weeks of pre-Iceland talks we have successfully tabled from community discussions the following issues for face to face conference with CCP:
1. Removal of 30/90 day time cards 2. Jump Bridges and Cyno-jammers fix 3. Log Server exploitation/BACON. 4. Skill Queue Functionality? 5. 5% rule is too strict. 6. Kill Rights should be transferable. 7. Alliances in Faction Warfare. 8. Funky POS alterations. 9. Improve Black Ops. 10. Make suicide ganking more difficult 11. General Eve Forums improvement/fixing 12. CSM should vote for its own chairman 13. Evaluation of empire war dec mechanics 14. Feasibility of Outposts going boom 15. Replace double-click in a chat channel 16. Cargo hold size of ships in hanger but not in use 17. Re-examination of 0.0 Sovereignty 18. Reload all Ammo 19. Small Freighters 20. Drone Implants 21. Rigged Ships and Cargo 22. Aggression timer is too short/variable hull fix 23. Improve Bombs 24. Chat Channel Pilot listing 25. EW Icons 26. HUD minimum sizes 27. Personal Assets HUD 28. Skills Page Improvement 29. Assembly Arrays 30. Experimental Industry Issues 31. Science POS improvements 32. Sell Order tweaks 33. Shares Stock Market 34. Contracts Improvements 35. Completion of unfinished Story Arcs in Eve 36. Roleplay Interests in EVE / dynamic consquence 37. Moon Mining Improvement / dynamic seeding 38. PVP Ownership of Wrecks 39. Corporation Standings Slots 40. Corporations automatical get Alliance standings 41. Buff Large Autocannons 42. Colorblind UI 43. Account Security 44. Mac/Linux Client 45. Multi Monitor Support 46. Evemail Spam from corp events.
Each of these issues stood for the mandated 7 days of public discussion. Each was brought up in a formal quorate CSM meeting and received a passing vote. Each has been ruled an Issue of importance and general community interest and has been documented in the form of a submission template and provided in advance to CCP to form the agenda for the conference in Iceland.
Now if anybody still holds that a few sparks and arguments in the debating chamber and some froth on the forums invalidates the good work done by CSM representatives who have worked pretty damn hard to get this thing on the road to a ridiculously short timescale then there's not much I can say to that besides - run next time and show us you can do better.
Because I happen to think this inaugural CSM has done a damn fine job. And anybody continuing to snipe from the sidelines in the face of very clear evidence of accomplishment is being petty, disingenuous and mindlessly vindictive.
CSM Manifesto 2008 | Destroy Outposts! |
Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.06.17 15:28:00 -
[38]
Edited by: Herschel Yamamoto on 17/06/2008 15:29:32
Originally by: Illaria
Originally by: Venomire I don't think you "get" checks and balances.
Are these the same checks and balances that allowed the executive to lie about WMD in Iraq, the installation of Guantamo and Abu'Ghreib?
Are we talking about the checking and balancing of a congress that only dared to oppose the current administration, after the public opinion on the whole Iraq adventure went to hell?
I know that you have been taught in high school that your political system is the apex of the civilized world, but unfortunately there are heretics out there in the rest of the world that are somehow irreverent to it. vOv
The world is a cold, harsh place.
Nobody lied about WMDs except everybody's favourite Iraqi dictator(aside: why does nobody ever complain about Bill Clinton's "lies" on this issue?), nobody lied about the installation of Guantanimo - it was rather public, as I recall - and those responsible for Abu Ghraib are going to trial just like anybody else who did those things would. And Congress decided to start standing up to Bush at almost exactly the same time as it went from being Republican-controlled to being Democrat-controlled, which is hardly a surprise to anyone who understands opposition parties.
Also, Venomire has a point - Bush's abuses of executive privilege aside, the US has a pretty weak executive by the standards of most countries, especially the country that gets to refer to the US as "the colonies". Are you at all familiar with the reserve powers of the Crown, or how many of them reside with the PM? Basically, in theory the entire apparatus of the British government(and the Canadian, and the Australian, and...) is nothing but Queen Elizabeth's personal staff, with a couple oversight bodies to limit how she can spend money. In practice, it's just the same except that the power is held by Gordon Brown, Stephen Harper, Kevin Rudd, and so on with absolutely *no* oversight - Harper aside, an even more horrifying group than the idea of being governed by Charles I. ------------------ Fix the forums! |
Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.06.17 15:29:00 -
[39]
Edited by: Herschel Yamamoto on 17/06/2008 15:29:06 Ignore this, double post. ------------------ Fix the forums! |
Wu Jiun
State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.06.17 16:58:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
Nobody lied about WMDs except everybody's favourite Iraqi dictator
Colin Powell anyone?
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
(aside: why does nobody ever complain about Bill Clinton's "lies" on this issue?),
Well, what does it matter? He was a president of the united states just as Bush, no?
Seriously i never thought americans would be stupid enough to eat all that fox news crap.
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Lt Graco
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Posted - 2008.06.17 17:07:00 -
[41]
Edited by: Lt Graco on 17/06/2008 17:07:54
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto *attempt at reason*
Why exactly are you bothering to respond to Jade's alt's attempt to troll with rl politics? Anyone who actually believes what Jade (Illaria ) believes will never see reason. The best thing to do is let the US be brow beaten into an isolationist attitude. Maybe next time there's a ****** the Joe Kennedys will win out over the FDRs and the US will watch the rest of the world go down the drain. Getting slammed by people we've helped in the past leaves me with no real problem with that idea anymore.
Edit = Fixed quote brackets.
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CCP Mitnal
C C P
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Posted - 2008.06.17 18:26:00 -
[42]
Cleaned.
Please keep real life politics off the forums.
Mitnal Community Representative CCP Games, EVE Online Email / Netfang |
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Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.06.17 18:47:00 -
[43]
Originally by: CCP Mitnal Cleaned.
Please keep real life politics off the forums.
I suppose we deserved that, but still, ------------------ Fix the forums! |
Tzujeih
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.18 00:51:00 -
[44]
Who cares jade is a dumbass.
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Inanna Zuni
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Posted - 2008.06.18 11:39:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Batwigg Is it really acceptable for a CSM Chair to be openly biased against two of his fellow voted representatives? And to openly admit this in a crowded local chat?
In a word, No.
The CSM is an OOG entity, and as such what corps and alliances the members of the CSM are involved in in-game is not relevant to the Council. If this behaviour had been from 'just another pilot' it would have been called trolling. The CSM are expected, indeed *required* the CCP document setting up the Council, to hold themselves to a higher standard and display that higher standard as an example for others to follow.
This is my personal opinion, others may differ ...
IZ
My principles |
Illaria
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Posted - 2008.06.18 12:13:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Inanna Zuni In a word, No.
The CSM is an OOG entity, and as such what corps and alliances the members of the CSM are involved in in-game is not relevant to the Council. If this behaviour had been from 'just another pilot' it would have been called trolling. The CSM are expected, indeed *required* the CCP document setting up the Council, to hold themselves to a higher standard and display that higher standard as an example for others to follow.
This is my personal opinion, others may differ ...
IZ
Not only you're late to this particular trolling thread, you also fail at your miserable attempt of propaganda.
Let me quote the paragraph of the CSM document you're referring to:
Originally by: CSM Document
Any behavior or actions considered to be a material breach of the EULA or TOS by a CSM representative is grounds for immediate dismissal and permanent exclusion from all pending and future participation in the council. There are no exceptions, regardless of the infraction. Representatives are not only expected to uphold the social contract that all society members are held accountable to, but should also set a behavior standard for everyone else to follow.
The quoted log from local chat in the OP hardly establishes the grounds for a "material breach of EULA or TOS", or does it?
But if in your twisted, little world you really think you have a case, I'd suggest you approach CCP about it, instead of bothering us all with your moral grandstanding.
Have a nice day. ---- Darius Johnson, not MY CSM. |
Lt Graco
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Posted - 2008.06.18 13:33:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Jade's alt
But if in your twisted, little world you really think you have a case, I'd suggest you approach CCP about it, instead of bothering us all with your moral grandstanding.
Jade, with your expertise concerning twisted little worlds it's hard to argue.
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Illaria
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Posted - 2008.06.18 13:40:00 -
[48]
Edited by: Illaria on 18/06/2008 13:41:27
Originally by: Lt Graco
Originally by: Jade's alt
But if in your twisted, little world you really think you have a case, I'd suggest you approach CCP about it, instead of bothering us all with your moral grandstanding.
Jade, with your expertise concerning twisted little worlds it's hard to argue.
*sigh*
Wouldn't you be lost in the wide reaches of your ignorance, you could look me up ingame and from my employment history you could tell, that I've never been affiliated with the Star Fraction; quite to the contrary you'd discover that I even have been in GoonSwarm for a while. ---- Darius Johnson, not MY CSM. |
KeratinBoy
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.18 13:43:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Illaria
Let me quote the paragraph of the CSM document you're referring to:
Originally by: CSM Document
Representatives are not only expected to uphold the social contract that all society members are held accountable to, but should also set a behavior standard for everyone else to follow.
The behaviour standard in this case being a juvenile hissy fit when you don't get your way.
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Illaria
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Posted - 2008.06.18 14:07:00 -
[50]
Great Job at doing partial quotes KeratinBoy. Like shown above the quoted sentence applies to material breachs of EULA and TOS"
Oh and I have another quote for you:
Originally by: CSM Document; page 8 First, individuals have the right to be free of undue external influences in the virtual society. To enforce this right, the EULA, TOS and other legal documents define the boundary which separates a playerÆs real-life actions from his or her virtual ones. As mentioned earlier, this is a non-negotiable social contract that is essential for maintaining the cohesion of any virtual society. These rules establish a framework for real-world personal behavior and decision making that limits the amount of external influence that can be leveraged in the game world.
This quotes establishes the definition of "social contract" as being defined by EULA, TOS and other legal documents.
and finally:
Originally by: CSM Document; page 8 Next, individuals have the right to unlimited interaction with other individuals in the virtual society. Players are free to take any action allowable within the ônatural lawsö of the game, and as such are governed only by their free will. This right is universal to all individuals, regardless of intent. as such, this freedom leaves them wholly unprotected from the consequences of their actions, regardless of if those consequences are just or not.
It's actually explicitly allowed to state your antipathy towards other players, as long as it's not a breach of the EULA, TOS.
But really why don't you present your case to CCP? It certainly would be highly amusing. ---- Darius Johnson, not MY CSM. |
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KeratinBoy
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.18 15:27:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Illaria
Originally by: CSM Document; page 8 This right is universal to all individuals, regardless of intent. as such, this freedom leaves them wholly unprotected from the consequences of their actions, regardless of if those consequences are just or not.
So, Jade is unprotected under the EULA from the consequences of juvenile hissy fits? Also, I have nothing against Jade's antipathy towards other people, it is an irrelevance. I do think that muting people for asking reasonable questions, trying to blame your mistakes on those you dislike and trying to justify your actions by making things up out of whole cloth is rather pathetic and bespeaks of someone who really needs professional counseling. Mostly, I'm glad I don't work with the guy.
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Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.06.18 16:02:00 -
[52]
Edited by: Jade Constantine on 18/06/2008 16:06:09
The crying in this thread is getting rather desperate. I don't like goons. Live with it.
If the terms of standing as a CSM rep had in ANY respect suggested that I would have to censor my free opinions as a player of Eve online on the issues of goonfleet (or any other group I consider to be a disruptive and nasty clique of e-bullies) then I wouldn't have stood under those limitations. Fortunately for all our sanity there was no such clause and I was elected on the manifesto I presented to the Eve player base and knowledge and aspirations for the game of Eve online.
If the story is always going to be "jade doesn't like goons" - when maybe you should be asking yourselves "why doesn't jade like goons?"
A little bit of introspection can be helpful in these circumstances.
CSM Manifesto 2008 | Destroy Outposts! |
Windjammer
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Posted - 2008.06.18 16:45:00 -
[53]
More goon manure. You'd think they would choke on their own hypocrisy. Guess the world just isn't that fair.
Windjammer
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Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.06.18 17:39:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Illaria
Originally by: Inanna Zuni In a word, No.
The CSM is an OOG entity, and as such what corps and alliances the members of the CSM are involved in in-game is not relevant to the Council. If this behaviour had been from 'just another pilot' it would have been called trolling. The CSM are expected, indeed *required* the CCP document setting up the Council, to hold themselves to a higher standard and display that higher standard as an example for others to follow.
This is my personal opinion, others may differ ...
IZ
Not only you're late to this particular trolling thread, you also fail at your miserable attempt of propaganda.
Let me quote the paragraph of the CSM document you're referring to:
Originally by: CSM Document
Any behavior or actions considered to be a material breach of the EULA or TOS by a CSM representative is grounds for immediate dismissal and permanent exclusion from all pending and future participation in the council. There are no exceptions, regardless of the infraction. Representatives are not only expected to uphold the social contract that all society members are held accountable to, but should also set a behavior standard for everyone else to follow.
The quoted log from local chat in the OP hardly establishes the grounds for a "material breach of EULA or TOS", or does it?
But if in your twisted, little world you really think you have a case, I'd suggest you approach CCP about it, instead of bothering us all with your moral grandstanding.
Have a nice day.
The OP was asking if it was inappropriate, not asking whether it violated the EULA/TOS. Nobody is claiming the latter, but a majority of people seem to believe the former. ------------------ Fix the forums! |
Judas Jones
Black Company
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Posted - 2008.06.19 00:35:00 -
[55]
How old is Inanna Zuni, seriously?
You remind me of politician's who like to sit on the back bench and ***** about thoes in the 'lime light' yet if you cannot handle yourself in a mature fashion in your current 'state' I sure as hell would not want you near any kind of position of power.
Grow up and stop your pointless and self destructive campaign of distaine for Jade which is self evident in so many of your postings and the way you say it. you don't have to go out looking for trouble, it's going to find you.
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cheese monkey
KIA Corp KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2008.06.19 07:03:00 -
[56]
Haha this is ridiculous! Jade your in a position of authority, grow up. You cant just go blatently saying that you dont like a certain player and wont listen to them because they are affiliaded to a certain alliance or corp... why dont you just go one step further and say you hate the amarr (wow eve-racism)! Imagine if the Prime minister of whatever country said that he didnt like black people, or people that he wasnt going to listen to christians, hed be a little screwed. Whether that title actually means anything apart form a shiny little forum thing under your name is for people to decide, however sort your life out and be more discrete with your opinions regarding the biggest alliance in the game and a large chunk of the player base!
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cheese monkey
KIA Corp KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2008.06.19 07:12:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Jade Constantine Edited by: Jade Constantine on 18/06/2008 17:28:13
The crying in this thread is getting rather desperate. Yes, I don't like goons. Live with it.
If the terms of standing as a CSM rep had in ANY respect suggested that I would have to censor my free opinions as a player of Eve online on the issues of goonfleet (or any other group I might happen to consider represents a nasty conformist mono-cultural clique of e-bullying mediocrity) then I wouldn't have stood under those limitations. Fortunately for all our sanity there was no such clause and I was elected on the manifesto I presented to the Eve player base and knowledge and aspirations for the game of Eve online.
If the story is always going to be "whaaaa! Jade doesn't like goons its so unfair" - when maybe you should be asking yourselves "Why doesn't jade like goons?" Ask yourself truly "what is there to like?" Maybe you should focus on your good points rather than relishing the bad and proving every worst preconception of your behaviour with every passing whine and pseudo-threadnaught afflicting these and other forum sections?
You goons come from an organization that represents about 2.5% of the player base. Yet you have direct CSM representation from 2 representatives and a little under 20% of the CSM voting power. Maybe its time to realize you did pretty well out of the CSM elections and learn to sit on your good fortune without whining about "how unfair" everything is?
A little bit of introspection can be helpful in these circumstances.
Sorry only just read this properly. Mate if you feel this way resign. You obviously should not be in any kind of authority.. ever. Goons are a big part of the game and simply because they outnumber every other alliance by double means that you gonta respect them, as they must be doing something right. If they have those numbers that means they are the most popular alliance in the game. When The Star Fraction hits the 5k mark then you can start saying things like:
"Why doesn't jade like goons?" Ask yourself truly "what is there to like?"
"Yes, I don't like goons. Live with it."
saying stuff as above is either a massive cry for attention or the best way to get yourself zero respect from the eve player base and alienate the people you are trying to represent!
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Yuki Santara
Yurai-Tenshin Zaibatsu Celestial Imperative
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Posted - 2008.06.19 10:21:00 -
[58]
Originally by: cheese monkey Haha this is ridiculous! Jade your in a position of authority, grow up. You cant just go blatently saying that you dont like a certain player and wont listen to them because they are affiliaded to a certain alliance or corp... why dont you just go one step further and say you hate the amarr (wow eve-racism)! Imagine if the Prime minister of whatever country said that he didnt like black people, or people that he wasnt going to listen to christians, hed be a little screwed. Whether that title actually means anything apart form a shiny little forum thing under your name is for people to decide, however sort your life out and be more discrete with your opinions regarding the biggest alliance in the game and a large chunk of the player base!
Always these comparisons... Goons are neither a race nor a religion, they are far more comparable to an organization like Scientology, which stands for certain ideals (or not). They may be the largest alliance, but they still only make up a very small share of the player base.
Some will agree with Jade and others will not, that is really all there is to it. Of course everyone is free to speak their mind about it (people tend to do that in politics :) ), but it's not appropriate to speak for the entire EVE population or to claim a general moral high ground.
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cheese monkey
KIA Corp KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2008.06.19 11:06:00 -
[59]
WoW. Sorry im not going to post anymore because reading around it looks like Jade just doest give a 5hit. Jade, stop posting for about 4-5 days then post on one of these threads something like:
"im appologise for any misconceptions... i have my own personal opinions, however i will representat all opinions by every entity within the eve community to the best of my abilities regardless of the alliance they are in"
Respect begates respect mate and if you dont humble yourself a little then your destroying alot of time and effort CCP have put into CSM. Embaressing yourself and them by delegitimizing the very aim of the CSM scheme. CSM is relatively new and needs to gain the trust of the people before it is able to say that it speaks for the people, whos to say that you wont start hating KIA or MM next? Youve got to be objective now that you are in authority. Hit me up in game if u wana chat further about this.
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Re Mi
Funshine Unlimited
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Posted - 2008.06.20 18:25:00 -
[60]
The CSM is more like the UN of EvE. So, in that spirit: The Goon imperialist oppressors should be will be stopped by any means necessary. *pounds shoe on table*
Funshine Unlimited - An Industrial Services Corporation |
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