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Elhina Novae
Amarr Ministry of War
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Posted - 2008.08.19 15:13:00 -
[151]
The only way to balance Amarr (which is clearly broken) is too nerf Minmatar. Their Artillery is way overpowered and they use no cap!? |
AstroPhobic
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.08.19 15:13:00 -
[152]
You get cap use, we get rate of fire. Because your weapons are high cap, and our weapons are low DPS. It's a racial thing, it's never going to change. |
Elhina Novae
Amarr Ministry of War
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Posted - 2008.08.19 15:17:00 -
[153]
Originally by: AstroPhobic You get cap use, we get rate of fire. Because your weapons are high cap, and our weapons are low DPS. It's a racial thing, it's never going to change.
Nerf minmatar |
Katarlia Simov
Minmatar Cowboys From Hell
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Posted - 2008.08.19 16:47:00 -
[154]
Originally by: Dristra It is hard to get any reasonable input in this thread, people whine about the wrong things or just come with "stfu noob amarr = win" just because other races have seen some nerfs :P
The main issue i see is the cap-use bonus that only serve to increase range on pulses and tracking on beams, but to a very slight degree, whould be nice with some other bonuses here and there.
And maller\propecy needs some tweaks.
Ah come on. The maller used to be damn good (god bless the dura-maller, may you rest in peace) and has had its day as the emphasis of combat moved much more towards gank. Its not bad, its really not. Just you would almost always pick something more versatile or that can hand out damage properlly.
The proph isn't exactly bad, as such, either. I mean, ages back it was the second best IMHO bc (Pre-fix cyclone for pvp anyone ? Or a ferox ?) and its still kinda ok, just you'd much rather be flying the harbinger. And thats the fate of the other tier 1 bcs too really...
Amarr aren't pure win, but they are FAR from bad nowerdays and sure they have a few stinkers, but on average you are better off picking an amarr ship than a lot of other things. Especially considering how quickly you can get past the hump of t1 cruisers into the creamy heights of bcs/bs/t2 you can't really moan.
Think back to before the laser fix. Compare that to now. Comparitively, we have NO problems what so ever.
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Angelic Eviaran
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Posted - 2008.08.19 19:30:00 -
[155]
Originally by: Peter Powers
i agree that the midslot layout is annyoing, however the retribution is a fine ship when used in gangs, so no need to "fix" it.
Sorry but after AF boost it will be a real friggin flaw if one race gets an AF that cant solo because of 1 mid slot. You can argue all day long about how its great in gangs but fact is that it doesnt do 300dps (wich would MAYBE be reason for it to have 1 mid). It needs to get a 2nd mid, no ifs nor buts.
Originally by: Peter Powers
cause cap is for amarr ships more important? the augoror is the perfect ship to support high-dps ships or to support capitals
Wait, you say that people would fly cap transferring augoror more then a armor transfer augoror? Sorry but youre just plain wrong on this one.
Originally by: Peter Powers
whine whine whine. how does a tank make it useless? hint: it doesnt, use nos and your tank will help to suck 'em dry.
Nos does not work. I know in theory it works but in practice it don't. Please stop theorycrafting.
Originally by: Peter Powers
do what others do - fit cap mods. ever seen how much cap the damps of an arazu eat?
Range still not solved on pilgrim. ALL other force recons have same range as their combat recon counterparts. IT NEEDS TO GET FIXED.
Originally by: Peter Powers
so basically you want ew ships to be assault frigattes with additional ew bonus? the sentinel is a pretty nice ew frigatte, and with its 4 (!) drones its better then for example the gallentean, one - if you want to boost one, the gallentean one needs the most
Actually no. You should go check the stats for EAS and read more carefull what I wrote. EAS are the only ship hulls that have the same amount of shield, armor and hull as their t1 hull. All t2 ships get buffed up shield, armor and hull but EAS, wich are t2, don't. This has nothing to do with the t2 resists.
What you are saying is why should pilgrim/curse have all the extra armor compared to an arbi? You want a HAC with ew?
That is what you basically said.
Originally by: Peter Powers
One of the finest bc i did ever fly, tough tank, quite a punch on dps. if you compare the prohpecy to the harbinger you could compare the ferox to the drake aswell.. or the brutix to the myrm. and in all cases you will find that the tier2 ships have advantages over the tier1 ones. .. why make it better then other tier1 bc?
No, read what you liked to read. There is a reason to fly a ferox, brutix or a cyclone. Ferox for rail sniping (rail sniping with drake ftl), brutix for rail setups or cyclone for people with good shield tank skills but no armor tank skills. For an amarr pilot there is ABSOLUTELY NO REASON AT ALL to fly a prophecy over a harbinger. NO reason at all. THAT is the core problem. Now give proph either bigger drone bay or range bonus and you might solve that.
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Peter Powers
Master Miners Intruders.
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Posted - 2008.08.19 19:51:00 -
[156]
i was going to answer to most of your post till i found you saying the following about a ship that is nicknamed "blasterix":
Originally by: Angelic Eviaran brutix for rail setups
'nuff said
Originally by: Angelic Eviaran
For an amarr pilot there is ABSOLUTELY NO REASON AT ALL to fly a prophecy over a harbinger. NO reason at all. THAT is the core problem.
cant resist to answer on that one since your talking about my beloved prophecy reason 1: cheaper reason 2: resistances reason 3: style (best looking ship in game) |
Angelic Eviaran
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Posted - 2008.08.19 20:10:00 -
[157]
Edited by: Angelic Eviaran on 19/08/2008 20:13:23
Originally by: Peter Powers i was going to answer to most of your post till i found you saying the following about a ship that is nicknamed "blasterix":
Originally by: Angelic Eviaran brutix for rail setups
'nuff said
Originally by: Angelic Eviaran
For an amarr pilot there is ABSOLUTELY NO REASON AT ALL to fly a prophecy over a harbinger. NO reason at all. THAT is the core problem.
cant resist to answer on that one since your talking about my beloved prophecy reason 1: cheaper reason 2: resistances reason 3: style (best looking ship in game)
Wait, this noob is trying to lecture me? Quite funny.
Here goes:
If you are a gallente pilot and want to bring a bc to a fleet you'll fit rails and not blasters. With rails youll instantly reach targets instead of slowboating all over the place and doing ZERO damage. Rail brutix does more damage then rail myrm. NUFF SAID?
There is no reason to fly harbinger at all:
1: You forgot to count the insurance. Fail. 2: Harbinger can field a 1600mm plate tank with single rep and much more dps at same time. In most situations that is ALOT better then a resist rep tank of a proph. You fail again. 3: Meh.
Sorry to say, but you really need to l2p before coming here and trying to make others look like noobs when youre the noob. |
Dristra
Amarr Shadows of the Dead Daisho Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.08.19 23:05:00 -
[158]
Originally by: Katarlia Simov
Originally by: Dristra It is hard to get any reasonable input in this thread, people whine about the wrong things or just come with "stfu noob amarr = win" just because other races have seen some nerfs :P
The main issue i see is the cap-use bonus that only serve to increase range on pulses and tracking on beams, but to a very slight degree, whould be nice with some other bonuses here and there.
And maller\propecy needs some tweaks.
Ah come on. The maller used to be damn good (god bless the dura-maller, may you rest in peace) and has had its day as the emphasis of combat moved much more towards gank. Its not bad, its really not. Just you would almost always pick something more versatile or that can hand out damage properlly.
The proph isn't exactly bad, as such, either. I mean, ages back it was the second best IMHO bc (Pre-fix cyclone for pvp anyone ? Or a ferox ?) and its still kinda ok, just you'd much rather be flying the harbinger. And thats the fate of the other tier 1 bcs too really...
Amarr aren't pure win, but they are FAR from bad nowerdays and sure they have a few stinkers, but on average you are better off picking an amarr ship than a lot of other things. Especially considering how quickly you can get past the hump of t1 cruisers into the creamy heights of bcs/bs/t2 you can't really moan.
Think back to before the laser fix. Compare that to now. Comparitively, we have NO problems what so ever.
As i have said, amarr are not BAD atm, just average, with a few cool ships here and there...
I actually propose to remove 20% cap use on lasers, and replace the cap use "bonus" with a plain cap bonus, this enables amarr ship to become a bit more flexible...
Currently the maller is quite well off fitting autos rather than lasers (if you ignore tech 2 ammo, but then again scorch might be a bit power...)
All i want is a change in the cap use bonus, don't take me wrong, i still want an arty\auto buff as much as the next guy, but im a avid amarr speaker, so nuff said... |
AstroPhobic
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.08.19 23:13:00 -
[159]
Amarr aren't average. They're nearly overpowered and the upcoming patch will confirm it.
And yes, I know. Large Energy Turret 5 finishes in 8 days. |
UGLYUGLY
Minmatar Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2008.08.20 00:55:00 -
[160]
Amarr are not over powered. They just excel as a race where they where designed to. 1.Tank 2.Damage
They don't do things fancy, hardly have anything in the way of utility on their ships. Just sit there be golden and give the enemy a hurting
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Kazuma Saruwatari
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.08.20 01:00:00 -
[161]
@ OP:
I'm seeing what you're trying to do there |
Zeba
Minmatar Pator Tech School
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Posted - 2008.08.20 01:48:00 -
[162]
Originally by: AstroPhobic Amarr aren't average. They're nearly overpowered and the upcoming patch will confirm it.
And yes, I know. Large Energy Turret 5 finishes in 8 days.
If Amarr could get the usefulness of the other races weapon systems with level 4 or even level 3 skills I'd agree. However seeing as you won't get far with lasers as a viable pvp weapon until you hit T2 and max or nearly max support skills I'd say the ludicrous time invested to get that wtfpwnage is moar than fair and balanced. |
AstroPhobic
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.08.20 01:57:00 -
[163]
You seem to forget that autocannons without barrage is failure and that artillery without t2 gun won't let you hit 150km.
Lasers are not the hardest weapon system to skill for, sorry. |
Zeba
Minmatar Pator Tech School
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Posted - 2008.08.20 02:03:00 -
[164]
Originally by: AstroPhobic You seem to forget that autocannons without barrage is failure and that artillery without t2 gun won't let you hit 150km.
Lasers are not the hardest weapon system to skill for, sorry.
Well thats simply because projectiles fail as a viable weapons system at low skill or even maxed at T2. So its not lasers high skill reqs fault as we at least get tp wtfpwn at max levels. |
AstroPhobic
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.08.20 02:09:00 -
[165]
You win. |
Angelic Eviaran
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Posted - 2008.08.20 14:07:00 -
[166]
Originally by: AstroPhobic Amarr aren't average. They're nearly overpowered and the upcoming patch will confirm it.
And yes, I know. Large Energy Turret 5 finishes in 8 days.
This thread isnt about claiming amarr are average. This thread is about fixing broken ships. Broken ships are broken no matter what race they belong to. Catfish? |
sdthujfg
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Posted - 2008.08.21 13:50:00 -
[167]
Fix the darn retribution! 1 mid IS ******ed! |
Dristra
Amarr Shadows of the Dead Daisho Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.08.21 16:18:00 -
[168]
Originally by: sdthujfg Fix the darn retribution! 1 mid IS ******ed!
I agree, move that high.
ALL af's are atm rather ******ed, just moving the resist "bonus" to the hull itself, and putting a useful bonus there inn its place will go a long way towards fixing them.
Then again artillery and autos also needs a buff.
Look at the rupture, hurricane, and tempest: these ships have gun bonuses that should dictate them to be damage machines, but in reality they are actually just below average as they have few turrets, and as pointed out by others: falloff for the lose.
Looking at some eft values (bu hu eft) it will seem that autocannons are to "light" and artillery just lacks punch
autocannon performance is very good relative to the fitting required, but when you DON'T HAVE the option of fitting bigger guns, you end up with performance that is sub-pair when compared with lasers and blasters
* As a side not here, i used the maller as the base hull for my vimsical test, and the only ting that makes lasers stand out compared to the neutrons that require less fitting is the power of scorch
Looking at artillery the main ting i notice is how hard they are to fit: the fitting is comparable to beams, but as we all know, less damage, small clip size, and alot less tracking
Clearly artillery should only have one major downside, to reflect the cap use on beams\rails, but we see that there are three downsides...
Just to mention rails: they are easy to fit, and have good range, not to mention more raw damage than artillery.
My conclusion is that the larger autocannons need to be "larger" more damage and range, but also more fitting required.
Artillery on the other hand needs a major buff, or a major decrease in fitting, in both cases buffed tracking is required.
Back on amarr tracks: My suggestion to lower cap use on lasers and replace cap use bonus with a plain cap bonus still sounds good in my own head after looking at these values. |
Angelic Eviaran
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Posted - 2008.08.22 22:51:00 -
[169]
Originally by: Dristra
Back on amarr tracks: My suggestion to lower cap use on lasers and replace cap use bonus with a plain cap bonus still sounds good in my own head after looking at these values.
but capuse is fine on amarr ships. Thats not really a core issue anymore. The sucky ships just need tweaks, like those mentioned in the op.
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AstroPhobic
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.08.22 22:53:00 -
[170]
How about you stop bumping a stupid thread? The balancing team(or guy, or trained ape..) has more pressing issues than boosting a nearly-overpowered race.
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Angelic Eviaran
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Posted - 2008.08.22 22:56:00 -
[171]
Originally by: AstroPhobic How about you stop bumping a stupid thread? The balancing team(or guy, or trained ape..) has more pressing issues than boosting a nearly-overpowered race.
But we needs love, my precious! Look at the poor retribution with one mid! Makes baby jesus cry.
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Joe Starbreaker
AnTi.
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Posted - 2008.08.22 23:40:00 -
[172]
I only read the OP and not the responses, but I support these kinds of "Boost Amarr" threads. By all means, let's keep them thinking our ships suck, so they will keep boosting us and boosting us again with every patch, even though our ships are the best by far already...
Originally by: VicturusTeSaluto All piracy is built upon honoring one's word.
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kor anon
Amarr Ministry of War
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Posted - 2008.08.23 19:24:00 -
[173]
Originally by: Angelic Eviaran
Maller:
-No use at all. Its a tanking ship of t1 cruiser class = useless. It needs more damage. Give it a damage bonus.
-Or you could keep the tanking bonus but give it a big drone bay.
Please at least try the ship in pvp before you say its useless
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Terianna Eri
Amarr Scrutari
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Posted - 2008.08.23 20:13:00 -
[174]
Originally by: Angelic Eviaran
Originally by: AstroPhobic How about you stop bumping a stupid thread? The balancing team(or guy, or trained ape..) has more pressing issues than boosting a nearly-overpowered race.
But we needs love, my precious! Look at the poor retribution with one mid! Makes baby jesus cry.
am I the only person who actually likes the 5/1/5 layout? Yes, one mid sort of sucks, but the 5th mid is actually really nice for a small nos. lets you not, you know, randomly die to neuts. or failing that it's good for overheating.
Then again it'd be nice if all the AF's got another slot, and 5/2/5 would be sweet. (P.S. replace the crappy AF resist bonus with a damage bonus - it's a good idea, really) __________________________________
Originally by: Arthur Frayn How much to ruin all your holes, luv?
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Katy Karkinoff
Minmatar Psycho Chicks
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Posted - 2008.08.23 20:30:00 -
[175]
Originally by: Angelic Eviaran
-So why not fix retri and vengeance? Because our hacs are ok? Good point. /sarcasm
-Omen and maller can be crap because their t2 hulls are ok? Good point. /sarcasm
-The basilisk the the real support cruiser, not the osprey. But that only applies to caldari apparantly. Good point. /sarcasm
-Sentinel: Unintresting because its worthless.
-We know the hacs and cs and BS are generally fine but that is not what this topic was about.
you sure do whine a alot. Sentinel is the poor mans curse, a way to practice for instance.
If you run in wolfpacks of EAS its a nice addition as it helps break tanks (more slowly than a curse, but still useful)
Also, look at it from the non shortsighted view: You have a plethora of great ships (the t2 cruiser and up line is phenomenal) your bs are amazing, and you have an awesome tier 2 bc.
You cant have everything, live with it. Something is always going to be worse than the others. Amarr have an excellent distribution of excellent ships and some mediocre ones. Now stop crying or quit eve and give you're "crappy" curse/pilgrim/sentinel/retri to me. Thx.
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Karad Forsky
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.08.23 21:26:00 -
[176]
1 mid or Retri and Coercer is fine imo. Retri might not be able to tackle but if you fit it for anti-frig duty (like the Coercer) it doesn't really matter too much - they die before they warp.
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Eve Defence Force
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Posted - 2008.08.28 18:11:00 -
[177]
Originally by: Karad Forsky 1 mid or Retri and Coercer is fine imo. Retri might not be able to tackle but if you fit it for anti-frig duty (like the Coercer) it doesn't really matter too much - they die before they warp.
Yeah but after nano nerf and with AF boost every race but amarr will have TWO fun small solo boats except amarr that will be stuck with one, vengeance. Thats not fair. For coercer it doesn't matter all that much, soloing in dessi is meh anyway. ----------------------------------------- [Video] Support Barrage |
Boz Well
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.08.28 18:14:00 -
[178]
With all Amarr have going for them, I just find it hard to buy any argument that the game is really unfair to Amarr pilots atm. One AF has only 1 mid, ok, but most of the rest of the line-up (specifically larger ships and t2 ships) is rock solid. I think it'd be nice if every race's ships were completely balanced, and while I agree Amarr has a few ships that could use some attention, in my mind at least CCP needs to do a lot of other things before worrying about a 1 mid AF.
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Eve Defence Force
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Posted - 2008.08.28 18:24:00 -
[179]
Originally by: Boz Well With all Amarr have going for them, I just find it hard to buy any argument that the game is really unfair to Amarr pilots atm. One AF has only 1 mid, ok, but most of the rest of the line-up (specifically larger ships and t2 ships) is rock solid. I think it'd be nice if every race's ships were completely balanced, and while I agree Amarr has a few ships that could use some attention, in my mind at least CCP needs to do a lot of other things before worrying about a 1 mid AF.
Meh, it's not really hard to fix a ship like retri if they are fixing other ships. They can just throw that in while at it. ----------------------------------------- [Video] Support Barrage |
Boz Well
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.08.28 18:29:00 -
[180]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Boz Well With all Amarr have going for them, I just find it hard to buy any argument that the game is really unfair to Amarr pilots atm. One AF has only 1 mid, ok, but most of the rest of the line-up (specifically larger ships and t2 ships) is rock solid. I think it'd be nice if every race's ships were completely balanced, and while I agree Amarr has a few ships that could use some attention, in my mind at least CCP needs to do a lot of other things before worrying about a 1 mid AF.
Meh, it's not really hard to fix a ship like retri if they are fixing other ships. They can just throw that in while at it.
While I agree with you, looking at CCP's recent patch, I'm not so sure it would be easy for them. CCP has managed to completely screw up things that I would have thought were somewhat simple, like balancing nano's without screwing up half a dozen other things. I wouldn't put it past them to screw up fixing a Retri as well.
I don't really disagree with the suggestion that Retri could use fixing, and there are a few other amarr ships I'd probably tweak if things were up to me, haha.
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