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Stella SGP
68
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Posted - 2012.04.07 09:26:00 -
[61] - Quote
Eva Volkova wrote:you reply to mi post but you dont answerd mi questions. i just think invention should given better items than BPO T2 because its more time consuming. More time= better results.
So please troll all you whant but eve has changed it allways is changing and thats good.
Ravens where number one but missiles change and get a nerf. Vagabons pilgrims a nanocanes where a must but a nerf came. titans are seem very powerfull and they have receive nerf after nerf.
Whats so important of BPO T2 that cant be changed in any way.
Ok lets keep it as they are but buff invention. whats the problem you have buffing invention?
- they should be a diference between using a 0me /0pe BPO and a full researched one. - why not have a chance of having better BPC T2?. Better than a BPO T2 full researched. Its only a BPC and will run out but will give you something new and will be fun (like getting an officer loot in pve).
Lets make industri a better place. Lets static and with more change.
EvA Actually all your questions have been answered, bottomline, there is nothing wrong with T2 Bpos and invention works as it should. The only problem there is, is your perception of the Bpos and jealousy.
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Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
835
|
Posted - 2012.04.07 11:36:00 -
[62] - Quote
Stella SGP wrote: Actually all your questions have been answered, bottomline, there is nothing wrong with T2 Bpos and invention works as it should. The only problem there is, is your perception of the Bpos and jealousy.
Agreed.
It doesn't mean that I can't wish for little things like:
- T1 BPC ME/PE having an effect on the resulting T2 BPC ME/PE (such as Sqrt(T1 BPC ME)-5 = T2 BPC ME).
- Asking for the decryptors to be rebalanced.
- Lower datacore prices through increased supply.
- Smarter S&I dialog windows which remember the last action that you did to result in less clicking when setting up a bunch of identical industry jobs.
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Yamadori
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2012.04.07 19:28:00 -
[63] - Quote
Eva Volkova wrote:Gizan wrote:im currently one of the guys producing absolutions off invention. my build cost is 127mil right now, and they sell for 210, should invetion be nerfed cuz im making 70~ mil/ship?
Proof? If data isnt wrong u better sell the components. http://www.eve-market-guide.com/t2item.php?id=22448EvA
yep that guy is dumb , he'd be better off selling the components , I recently checked the numbers myself |
Buzzmong
Aliastra Gallente Federation
188
|
Posted - 2012.04.07 19:56:00 -
[64] - Quote
Of course, people are all aware that before Invention Cap Charger II's used to be 15 million a piece right?
You know, Invention did not in any way shape or form utterly destroy a cartel and bring the price down of a very popular module to ~1 million, while also allowing inventors to wreap profits by taking up the massive demand that the BPO holders cannot ever meet if they soley use their BPO for production.
Also, people are totally aware that to produce of a BPO you have to stick it in a slot and manufacture from it, as to make BPC's from them takes an inordinate amount of time.
They are also aware from the seeds of 25 (or 50) BPO's for each item, a number have been destroyed or lost over the years, and CCP have never seeded T2 BPO's again, meaning not only is there a dwindling T2 BPO count for pre-inventoin T2 items, but also that all newer T2 modules (post invention) are solely available by invention.
Right? |
Dawiid BenAimaic
Dasa Fern Valley Jamaican Rum Transport Corp
1
|
Posted - 2012.04.07 21:02:00 -
[65] - Quote
I have a t2 blueprint. I do invention. I have spreadsheets, I use EveHQ Prism
My factory lines are full of T1 products right now because that is what is profitable right now with my skill set. I made that determination using Cramer's method of evaluation of simultaneous equations using partial pivoting to improve accuracy. Market is always changing. My T2 ISK printer is not always profitable
I firmly believe that a return to a partial T2 lottery would be good for the game, give a reward to those who are willing to run R&D missions everyday besides double the datacores. CCP knows the ratio of BPC:BPO and can release a small number of BPOs without upsetting the market
It was a long time ago that I worked very hard trying to win the T2 lottery and I was very excited when I received my BPO. I would be very sad if my T2 BPO were removed. |
Zelda Wei
New Horizon Trade Exchange
87
|
Posted - 2012.04.09 16:15:00 -
[66] - Quote
Without BPO for T2 prices would sky rocket. |
Brewlar Kuvakei
Adeptio Gloriae
36
|
Posted - 2012.04.09 16:45:00 -
[67] - Quote
Cool an unlocked thread.
Q A) What are T2BPO?
T2BPO stands for Tech Two Blueprint Original. They are in game items that allow the creation of TECH II items with out the need for an invention process
Where did they come from?
They were seeded into the game in a variety of ways
1. They were dropped by Rats in certain systems. Many deemed this unfair and pointed to the fact that CCP were intentionally aiming drops at particularly alliances/corps by generating the drop in their space
2. They were given out in a lottery that required research points as tickets. Many deemed this unfair as it gave those with far larger banks of research point ie older players a distinct advantage. Information about the workings of the lottery were also released to key players. This information was regarding the amount of BPO's in each individual lottery and how many tickets were participating. This gave key players insight into which lottery to enter giving them far greater chances of obtaining T2BPO's. Some even rumour that the lottery was in no way random and that CCP employee's simply chose which players to gift BPO's
3. They were simply handed as assets in secret to certain players by CCP
4. An incident where non authorised handing of T2 BPO to a player from a CCP employee occurred. These BPO's were recovered but not after several EVE players were sanctioned for bringing the incident to light. (Discussing Bans is bannable, so I best not go into this too much less I get banned). Simply put CCP's behaviour over the incident could be described disgusting at best
Q B) Who owns them?
1. Players that obtained items as stated above
2. Players who have WORKED for them by other means and purchased them from players who were gifted them using ISK
3. Players who purchased them illegally using RMT
4. Players who ganked them out of ships or stole them from corp while unlocked
Q C) Why are there calls to remove them?
1. They were seeded and distributed into the game unfairly
2. Figures have been released by CCP revealing the extent of the wealth they can generate at little effort
3. They can be locked in corp hangers and still used but not stolen unless through a corp vote they are unlocked. (makes zero sense if the item is locked it should not be able to be used.)
4. In many cases the invention process can not compete with the BPO but this does vary from item to item
5. They never expire and have unlimited runs
Q D) How should they be removed?
1. Immediately by returning spent RP and taking the BPO out of game
2. If owning player paid ISK for them the trade should be reverted and ISK returned while original owner is reimbursed with research points
Q E) How will TECH II be produced after removal?
By invention process which allows fair competition
Q F) Anything else that should be known?
1. Some T2BPO are not profitable due to limited demand for the produced item. 2. Some T2 items do not have a T2BPO but require invention as sole creator 3. Burning copies of T2BPO reqs items as well as time and copying costs 4. The % of the market the BPO covers varies immensely between items 5. The retail cost of the BPO's vary immensely between items. 6. Read other posts |
marie claude
arcane machine shop
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.09 16:55:00 -
[68] - Quote
to be perfectly honest ccp screwed the inventors over by killing the bpo lottery. for those who are too young t2 bpo were given out by agents when you would buy tickets with lp points. cpp was caught giving the band of brothers winning tickets and their solution to this crime was to kill the lottery all together. what ccp really needs to do is give us the chance to make a t2 bpo by sacrificing a t1 bpo with the odds the same or worse for making a t2 bpc. this would ballence out the market and lower ship cost dramatically.
edit: taking existing bpos from players is simply an unfair idea anyone who suggest such a thing should be podded immediately. |
Shadowsword
The Scope Gallente Federation
120
|
Posted - 2012.04.09 17:50:00 -
[69] - Quote
Scrapyard Bob wrote: Agreed.
It doesn't mean that I can't wish for little things like:
- T1 BPC ME/PE having an effect on the resulting T2 BPC ME/PE (such as Sqrt(T1 BPC ME)-5 = T2 BPC ME).
- Asking for the decryptors to be rebalanced.
- Lower datacore prices through increased supply.
- Smarter S&I dialog windows which remember the last action that you did to result in less clicking when setting up a bunch of identical industry jobs.
I agree with all those points, except about datacores. They already are really cheap compared to what they once were, to the point that it's barely worth the effort of grinding standings to get R&D agents. |
Haulie Berry
3
|
Posted - 2012.04.09 17:53:00 -
[70] - Quote
Quote:- T1 BPC ME/PE having an effect on the resulting T2 BPC ME/PE (such as Sqrt(T1 BPC ME)-5 = T2 BPC ME).
This is a great idea if you want to make less money from your production jobs. |
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Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
80
|
Posted - 2012.04.09 19:01:00 -
[71] - Quote
Kenshin Tzestu wrote:More like BPO owners can undercut people trying invention to the point that they exit the market. Statements like this really emphasize the lack of common sense in the "T2 BPO's are unfair" crowd.
Seriously,
If you stop for two seconds and actually think about it. If an owner of a T2 BPO wants to make money of it, what is their best option?
T2 BPO are crazy expensive and can be sold for 10's or even 100's of billions of isk. It would take years to make enough profit off the BPO to equal what it is worth to just sell it. True, there are some indy toons out there actually using these for production. But these players are not doing it for the isk. The T2 BPO's are for the most part collectors items.
The opportunity cost attached to them is way to high for them to be a feasible way of making isk. These BPO's are not controlling the market. The T2 items not being produced by invention are because there is no demand for them, not because they have BPO's in game.
Give it a rest. whether or not these are removed from the game will have no noticeable impact on the game as a whole. If they are removed the items dominantly made from them will still not be profitable as there is no demand for those items.
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Stella SGP
72
|
Posted - 2012.04.09 20:26:00 -
[72] - Quote
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:Kenshin Tzestu wrote:More like BPO owners can undercut people trying invention to the point that they exit the market. Statements like this really emphasize the lack of common sense in the "T2 BPO's are unfair" crowd. Seriously, If you stop for two seconds and actually think about it. If an owner of a T2 BPO wants to make money of it, what is their best option? WOA! Slow down there buddy, you're asking for too much there! |
Brewlar Kuvakei
Adeptio Gloriae
37
|
Posted - 2012.04.09 20:41:00 -
[73] - Quote
The owner of T2BPO can get over 50Billion isk in retail value alone and that is before even producing a single item. For sure some of the BPO's are not worth that but many are. |
Stella SGP
72
|
Posted - 2012.04.09 20:50:00 -
[74] - Quote
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:The owner of T2BPO can get over 100Billion isk in retail value alone and that is before even producing a single item. For sure some of the BPO's are not worth that but many are. And owners of Officer-fitted Titans can get over 100Bil isk in retail value alone too and thats before using it to carebear anomalies and blapping people. So whats your point? Anything you can't afford should be removed? |
qDoctor Strangelove
Beware of the Red Fox
5
|
Posted - 2012.04.09 21:26:00 -
[75] - Quote
Stella SGP wrote: And owners of Officer-fitted Titans can get over 100Bil isk in retail value alone too and thats before using it to carebear anomalies and blapping people. So whats your point? Anything you can't afford should be removed?
I'd like this service or product. |
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
82
|
Posted - 2012.04.16 14:31:00 -
[76] - Quote
Stella SGP wrote:Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:The owner of T2BPO can get over 100Billion isk in retail value alone and that is before even producing a single item. For sure some of the BPO's are not worth that but many are. And owners of Officer-fitted Titans can get over 100Bil isk in retail value alone too and thats before using it to carebear anomalies and blapping people. So whats your point? Anything you can't afford should be removed? No, Actually the point is. Stop crying about not having one. the opportunity costs associated with owning one (for both T2 BPO's and Titan's) exceeds the potential profit.
Yes you can make products from T2 BPO's and sell them, just like you can use a Titan for ratting or running anomalies. But that does not give the players who own them an unfair advantage. The opportunity costs far exceeds the advantage. You could make way more by selling them.
The point is for all the cry babies to man up and stop crying for these items to be removed from game. |
Leemi Sobo
41
|
Posted - 2012.04.16 16:53:00 -
[77] - Quote
Eva Volkova wrote:qDoctor Strangelove wrote:... 5: Reintroduce T2 BPO's?? that will ruin invention for ever, making it totally BUST for the masses. 5. Not if we change how BPO T2 work. If BPO are more expensive to produce but able to mass produce and Invention less expensive no mass produce. You have a choice.
that's exactly the way it works ... but the other way arround:
- T2 BPO == less expensive but no mass production
- T2 BPC == more expensive but mass production
every player can decide for their own if he/she want to invest a few bil ISK to get a BPO to produce a few items a month at lower cost to make profit after a few years or if he/she want to invent BPCs to produce more items but at higher cost and make profit after a the first month
if there are items where invention isn't profitable .... invent somthing else ?
the same rules for everyone in the sandbox
best regards
Leemi Sobo |
qDoctor Strangelove
Beware of the Red Fox
8
|
Posted - 2012.04.16 22:19:00 -
[78] - Quote
Leemi Sobo wrote:Eva Volkova wrote:qDoctor Strangelove wrote:... 5: Reintroduce T2 BPO's?? that will ruin invention for ever, making it totally BUST for the masses. 5. Not if we change how BPO T2 work. If BPO are more expensive to produce but able to mass produce and Invention less expensive no mass produce. You have a choice. that's exactly the way it works ... but the other way arround:
- T2 BPO == less expensive but no mass production
- T2 BPC == more expensive but mass production
every player can decide for their own if he/she want to invest a few bil ISK to get a BPO to produce a few items a month at lower cost to make profit after a few years or if he/she want to invent BPCs to produce more items but at higher cost and make profit after a the first month if there are items where invention isn't profitable .... invent somthing else ? the same rules for everyone in the sandbox best regards Leemi Sobo
For most module BPC's, the cost of making a unit from a BPO and a BPC should not matter much.
|
Katerwaul
The Scope Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2012.04.17 04:14:00 -
[79] - Quote
How dare they hold such a monopoly while other industrialists produce as many items as they can for as little as possible then BLEED THEMSELVES to give other capsulers the best deal possible. A budding inventor has no opportunities to break out into the market and no recourse. There's no need for armadas of typhoons. No desire for any drakes. No chance for casual invention for the good of a corporation.
They will forever be SLAVES, mining ore and ice for the T2 BPO Gods to consume with their industrial war machines while they LORD ABOVE US in their hover-chairs. Their opulence dripping off of them to poison every market they touch and driving the NORMALS into rat infested gutters where we have to sell our bodies alongside our wares to ensure our security and profits. We must find these purveyors of misbegotten goods and drive them from the heavens.
DEATH TO THE T2 BPOs AND ALL THOSE WHO HOLD THEM! Etc... Etc..Ragequit..whine..etc..
It's odd how closely Eve can mirror life at times, and it seems that the T2 BPOs bring to light one universal truth.
"Life isn't fair."
I'm glad I missed all of the drama that ensued during my hiatus last year and avoided the invidia and avaritia that seems to have poisoned so many with such ira.
The dead horse became a bag of glue long ago. Feel free to stop kicking it whenever you'd like. Working with everyone to improve New Eden -- Internet Spaceships Iz Serious Business. |
Jurinak
Horizons Unlimited LLC
2
|
Posted - 2012.04.17 08:27:00 -
[80] - Quote
right now there are 8 BPOs in the Contract more in the Forum Sell Order.
Man to hell the "T2 BPOs are evil!!!!" faction should buybuybuy, be a part of the evil empire that rules the universe with the there blue papers...you do not?? think about why. Its because you are a nice guy and dont want to be evil, rigth?
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Shai 'Hulud
Guiding Hand Social Club
18
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Posted - 2012.04.17 18:18:00 -
[81] - Quote
T2 BPO's were a balance issue before the introduction of the invention system. There is no way to undo the lottery, most prints are not owned by those who won them from such. What you guys are really proposing is taking stuff from those players who have invested in these assets. At this point, everyone has the same opportunity to acquire these prints and they are not a balance issue. But all this has been said before. It does nothing to illuminate WHY you are complaining about a perfectly balanced game mechanic...
What this really comes down to, is that I'm better than you. In every way. You want my stuff, because I completely invalidate your efforts in this game. You go to and fro, completing your chores and working your ass off... with a dream of one day rising above the filth of your existence to the plain on which I reside. But sooner or later, you come to the realization that you are no closer to my reality than when you started. In fact, you are losing ground by the minute - falling ever deeper into the depths of poverty. It is at this moment, that you give up on your own advancement and begin trying to tear me down. You think "Surely this is not a failure or shortcoming on my end, but some unfair advantage held by those with whom I cannot compete." So you cry. You cry about T2 BPO's and high skill points and powerful ships and suicide gank mechanics. It's pathetic.
The simple fact of the matter is this: you are crying, while I am winning. You work for me, and no amount of whining or nerfing will change that. Get over it. |
Brewlar Kuvakei
Adeptio Gloriae
49
|
Posted - 2012.04.17 19:17:00 -
[82] - Quote
T2BPO is living proof that success in EVE online has more to do with who you know than what you do. As long as certain players/corps keep getting gifted bonus items such as T2BPO CCP will never be able to claim this game a true sand box.
If CCP ever wants to shake of it's shady image and let eve flourish it will have to remove T2BPO. So why prolong the inevitable? They should never have been introduced and there have been plenty of oppertunity for their removal.
As disucussed the fairest way is removal and compensation in the form of Research points spent on them. If bought reverse transaction and compensate original owner. Apply negative wallets where needs be. |
Prekaz
The Gentlemen's Corporation
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.17 19:34:00 -
[83] - Quote
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:T2BPO is living proof that success in EVE online has more to do with who you know than what you do. As long as certain players/corps keep getting gifted bonus items such as T2BPO CCP will never be able to claim this game a true sand box.
Most of your whining seems to revolve around a largely fictitious rendition of one scandal that happened five years ago and involved a relatively small number of not-particularly-lucrative BPOs which, IIRC, were recycled into the lottery at the resolution of the incident.
That's how flimsy your position is - you can't actually make any salient point, so the only option remaining to you is to continually repeat the same decidedly false statement in the apparent hope that doing so will somehow alter reality.
I have seen preschoolers throw tantrums over their blankies with more dignity than this. |
AureoBroker
Natural Inventions Solyaris Chtonium
34
|
Posted - 2012.04.17 19:49:00 -
[84] - Quote
It's a problem of attriction. T2 BPOs are incoherent and don't inherently bring value over invention, but removing them creates bigger problems than they create themselves. In other worlds, the accelleration is not enough to overcome the friction. |
Cassi Watson
Farscape Creations
1
|
Posted - 2012.04.18 03:19:00 -
[85] - Quote
If a T2 BPO's are a licence to print money. It cuts out a decent cost in the production of T2 goods and turns it into 100% pure profit. While a T2 BPO is technically open to the free market, no player can procure one threw means that currently exist in the game.
The Value of a T2 BPC is defined by the players ability's to produce them threw research, this value has real context since time and materials went to making them. A T2BPO piggybacks this value in a manner that no player can reproduce threw current game mechanics.
The only fair way to fix this situation is to give a value to the current T2BPO's and then add a means to procure a T2BPO at the same cost. This "Fix" would invalidate the invention system over time but it should be noted that the invention system still stands as a cheaper way to produce a T2 BPC, if the procurement of a T2 BPO was threw invention it would still keep the system valid.
Ultimately the biggest issue I feel most industrialists have with T2BPO's is the fact that we cant procure them threw the game and that they can have 0.1% waste while invention prints are limited to what ML's and PL's you modify them to have.
T2 BPO's are just another "ATM" CCP needs to fix in the game. |
Stella SGP
195
|
Posted - 2012.04.18 03:51:00 -
[86] - Quote
Cassi Watson wrote:If a T2 BPO's are a licence to print money. It cuts out a decent cost in the production of T2 goods and turns it into 100% pure profit. While a T2 BPO is technically open to the free market, no player can procure one threw means that currently exist in the game.
The Value of a T2 BPC is defined by the players ability's to produce them threw research, this value has real context since time and materials went to making them. A T2BPO piggybacks this value in a manner that no player can reproduce threw current game mechanics.
The only fair way to fix this situation is to give a value to the current T2BPO's and then add a means to procure a T2BPO at the same cost. This "Fix" would invalidate the invention system over time but it should be noted that the invention system still stands as a cheaper way to produce a T2 BPC, if the procurement of a T2 BPO was threw invention it would still keep the system valid.
Ultimately the biggest issue I feel most industrialists have with T2BPO's is the fact that we cant procure them threw the game and that they can have 0.1% waste while invention prints are limited to what ML's and PL's you modify them to have.
T2 BPO's are just another "ATM" CCP needs to fix in the game. Only thing that needs fixing is the IQ level of some people, something CCP can't fix... |
Tenris Anis
Schattenengel Clan
43
|
Posted - 2012.04.18 22:19:00 -
[87] - Quote
Kenshin Tzestu wrote:More like BPO owners can undercut people trying invention to the point that they exit the market.
Not can, but have to. BPO owners have no other option. And their profits are limited. |
Tomas Ysidro
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
16
|
Posted - 2012.04.23 22:15:00 -
[88] - Quote
The only thing you get from the premium you pay on a T2 BPO is the fact that you don't have to click so goddamn much when you want to build t2 stuff. Anyone who thinks that they're automatic isk printers is delusional, stupid, or both. |
Xuixien
Stoic Assembly Lines Trade Federation Alliance
27
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 20:20:00 -
[89] - Quote
Shai 'Hulud wrote:T2 BPO's were a balance issue before the introduction of the invention system. There is no way to undo the lottery, most prints are not owned by those who won them from such. What you guys are really proposing is taking stuff from those players who have invested in these assets. At this point, everyone has the same opportunity to acquire these prints and they are not a balance issue. But all this has been said before. It does nothing to illuminate WHY you are complaining about a perfectly balanced game mechanic...
What this really comes down to, is that I'm better than you. In every way. You want my stuff, because I completely invalidate your efforts in this game. You go to and fro, completing your chores and working your ass off... with a dream of one day rising above the filth of your existence to the plain on which I reside. But sooner or later, you come to the realization that you are no closer to my reality than when you started. In fact, you are losing ground by the minute - falling ever deeper into the depths of poverty. It is at this moment, that you give up on your own advancement and begin trying to tear me down. You think "Surely this is not a failure or shortcoming on my end, but some unfair advantage held by those with whom I cannot compete." So you cry. You cry about T2 BPO's and high skill points and powerful ships and suicide gank mechanics. It's pathetic.
The simple fact of the matter is this: you are crying, while I am winning. You work for me, and no amount of whining or nerfing will change that. Get over it.
im laughin im cryin and i dont even Rabble Rabble!! |
Kara Books
Deal with IT.
116
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 21:08:00 -
[90] - Quote
Tenris Anis wrote:Kenshin Tzestu wrote:More like BPO owners can undercut people trying invention to the point that they exit the market. Not can, but have to. BPO owners have no other option. And their profits are limited.
10-50% waste
on a side note, my own wall of text on the subject.
I do believe T2 BPO invention requires introduction, making the cost for running invention both costly and accessible to every one (making sure all the research stations in eve are not qued up for the next 4 years) and the current private stations do not become extinct due to wars.
Research needs a total revamp from the ground up, I believe the current T1 market shows us that the community is profiting. I.E. make research BPO related and cut the BPC waste down to zero or 10% standard for small items and as is for large slower moving items.
We also want to take special care not to hurt the BPC market to much as far to many people are relent and situated comfortably on their repetitive work, which is calming from every day life, if hurt has to happen, atleast give them something else to look forward to.
as for the people who Hoard T2 BPO's it would indeed be unfair to just take it from them "Tough, Umad?" , I believe buying the BPO's from them at current market prices would be fair as they would not lose anything, only make them give up their advantage.
Another major problem we have, are moons, Well they are not really a problem, I think its great how they work now, but we should look into giving miners the ability to "Craft" these moon minerals, like research but in a way where its only meant to cap moon minerals from growing to far in price once the new T2 changes take effect
"Keep CCP in firm control" or "Market regulation" as we all know, when investors are given the chance to save their own ass and let millions die, exactly that will happen every single time without MARKET REGULATION, just a touch up here and there once in a while when you start seeing people complain about the same thing a bit to often, bty thank you for listening to us CCP.
As for the poster who says we work for him, I believe his logic is not to insult us, but to show us, in the form of art, he is reflecting on the position and feelings of the 99%
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