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Richecks Ecks
Jimmy Riggers Inc. GekkoState.
2
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Posted - 2012.04.24 13:45:00 -
[1] - Quote
What if there was a skill (active learning) or something that was to give a slight boost for your current train? i.e.- youre training mining. if mining, you get a -2%, -4%, -6% train time if actively using the skill. - using tungston hybrid ammo or any long range ammo while training sharpshooter? |

Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
372
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Posted - 2012.04.24 13:50:00 -
[2] - Quote
No. No grinding for skills.
This /keeps/ being brought up.
It's not a new idea. It's not novel.
And there are a great many of us that don't want it.
Oh, and there's a features and ideas discussion forum you should be using for this, FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator, invention chance calculator, isk/m3 Ore chart-á and other 'useful' utilities. |

Whitehound
196
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Posted - 2012.04.24 13:59:00 -
[3] - Quote
While I like the idea of supporting people's skill decisions with additional mechanics do I wonder if we really need training wheels? Hehe, nice word actually, training wheels.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6263
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Posted - 2012.04.24 14:01:00 -
[4] - Quote
It's been tried. It failed. It only promotes silly behaviour and distracts people from actually playing the game.
It's also pretty much impossible to make it universally applicable, and it doesn't really solve any kind of problem. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |

Ank Parkor
WildSpace Otters
37
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Posted - 2012.04.24 14:05:00 -
[5] - Quote
What belongs to Elder Scrolls must remain at Elder Scrolls.
Short time trader, short term missionner, long term ambitions.
Bring justice to EVE:-áhttps://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1171333 |

Dr Caymus
Applied Technologies Inc Agents of Fortune
19
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Posted - 2012.04.24 14:35:00 -
[6] - Quote
This thread reminds me of the movie "Groundhog Day"
Dr Caymus -=ATI=- |

stoicfaux
961
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Posted - 2012.04.24 14:50:00 -
[7] - Quote
Richecks Ecks wrote:What if there was a skill (active learning) or something that was to give a slight boost for your current train? i.e.- youre training mining. if mining, you get a -2%, -4%, -6% train time if actively using the skill. - using tungston hybrid ammo or any long range ammo while training sharpshooter? Mental image: battleship + cargo expanders + hold full of ammo + one small gun in high + perma-tanked small shield booster shooting at and being shot by a corpmate with a similar setup for 23/7. (Obviously, you would use ammo-less lasers to train up the sharpshooting skill, this is just a hypothetical.)
You can tell me what is and isn't Truth when you pry the tinfoil from my cold, lifeless head.
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Elsbeth Taron
Elsbeth Taron Corporation
4
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Posted - 2012.04.24 14:56:00 -
[8] - Quote
stoicfaux wrote:Richecks Ecks wrote:What if there was a skill (active learning) or something that was to give a slight boost for your current train? i.e.- youre training mining. if mining, you get a -2%, -4%, -6% train time if actively using the skill. - using tungston hybrid ammo or any long range ammo while training sharpshooter? Mental image: battleship + cargo expanders + hold full of ammo + one small gun in high + perma-tanked small shield booster shooting at and being shot by a corpmate with a similar setup for 23/7. (Obviously, you would use ammo-less lasers to train up the sharpshooting skill, this is just a hypothetical.)
Another mental image. CCP has a programming team that can stop shooting at corp mates from affecting training times. Now continue ... |

Luba Cibre
Global Song Setup
111
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Posted - 2012.04.24 15:01:00 -
[9] - Quote
Elsbeth Taron wrote:stoicfaux wrote:Richecks Ecks wrote:What if there was a skill (active learning) or something that was to give a slight boost for your current train? i.e.- youre training mining. if mining, you get a -2%, -4%, -6% train time if actively using the skill. - using tungston hybrid ammo or any long range ammo while training sharpshooter? Mental image: battleship + cargo expanders + hold full of ammo + one small gun in high + perma-tanked small shield booster shooting at and being shot by a corpmate with a similar setup for 23/7. (Obviously, you would use ammo-less lasers to train up the sharpshooting skill, this is just a hypothetical.) Another mental image. CCP has a programming team that can stop shooting at corp mates from affecting training times. Now continue ... Another mental image. Out of corp alt. |

stoicfaux
962
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Posted - 2012.04.24 15:04:00 -
[10] - Quote
Elsbeth Taron wrote:Another mental image. CCP has a programming team that can stop shooting at corp mates from affecting training times. Now continue ... Create alt, have alt destroy your rookie ship, get kill rights on alt, now shoot alt for 30days (or for a week or two if using a trial alt.) Faction Warfare alt should work as well.
Drop corp. War dec or go to low-sec or null-sec to shoot each other.
You can tell me what is and isn't Truth when you pry the tinfoil from my cold, lifeless head.
|

Adam Dinkleberg
Copacabana
1
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Posted - 2012.04.24 15:50:00 -
[11] - Quote
nay. |

Blackmerk
Jian Products Engineering Group Nulli Secunda
0
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Posted - 2012.04.24 16:53:00 -
[12] - Quote
Okay what about Combined skills you can train. IE Shield operation + Shield management + 1 advanced research manual =shield operational management. If the first word of the skill matches it can be combined once to create a Tech 2 skill and save 5% or 10% on training time over the combined skills. Also the skill to combine skills can be trained and those books sold on contract by Science bears who can afford to buy such a rare skill book that allows them to combine skills in station.
Remember you heard it here first! |

stoicfaux
964
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Posted - 2012.04.24 17:18:00 -
[13] - Quote
Blackmerk wrote: Okay what about Combined skills you can train. IE Shield operation + Shield management + 1 advanced research manual =shield operational management. If the first word of the skill matches it can be combined once to create a Tech 2 skill and save 5% or 10% on training time over the combined skills. Also the skill to combine skills can be trained and those books sold on contract by Science bears who can afford to buy such a rare skill book that allows them to combine skills in station. Remember you heard it here first! Previously, there were the Learning skills ( http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Skills_guide#Historical_note:_Learning_skills ) which increased the rate at which you trained by increasing your attributes. The learning skills were removed and everyone's stats were bumped by 12 points (which represented five(?) or so million skill points in Learning.)
The Learning skills were removed because they weren't fun, and combined with the newbie accelerated training bonus, were creating a bad new user experience (the most optimal thing for a newbie to do for their first month while flying around in a basic frigate was to train the passive learning skills, instead of training active skills related to flying, fighting, mining or trading.)
What makes you think a new (rehashed) skill training paradigm that forces/encourages/min-maxes/obligates people to learn skills in a fixed order is a good idea, considering that the Learning skills were removed because people, felt forced/encouraged/min-max/obligated to train skills in a particular order?
You can tell me what is and isn't Truth when you pry the tinfoil from my cold, lifeless head.
|

stoicfaux
968
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Posted - 2012.04.24 21:31:00 -
[14] - Quote
Aha! Here's the old optimal training plan to maximize your learning rate: http://community.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=242786
Quote: 1. Cybernetics 1 2. Plug in +3 Implants: Memory Augmentation - Basic & Cybernetic Subprocessor - Basic 3. Instant Recall 1 4. Analytical Mind 1 5. Learning 1 6. Instant Recall 2 7. Analytical Mind 2 8. Learning 2 9. Instant Recall 3 10. Analytical Mind 3 11. Learning 3 12. Instant Recall 4 13. Eidetic Memory 1 14. Eidetic Memory 2 15. Eidetic Memory 3 16. Analytical Mind 4 17. Logic 1 18. Logic 2 19. Logic 3 20. Learning 4 21. Cybernetics 2 22. Cybernetics 3 23. Cybernetics 4 24. Plug in +4 Implants: Memory Augmentation - Standard & Cybernetic Subprocessor - Standard 25. Eidetic Memory 4 26. Logic 4 27. Instant Recall 5 28. Analytical Mind 5 29. Learning 5 30. Cybernetics 5 31. Plug in all five +5 "Improved" Implants 32. Eidetic Memory 5 33. Logic 5 34. Iron Will 1* 35. Spatial Awareness 1* 36. Empathy 1* 37. Iron Will 2* 38. Spatial Awareness 2* 39. Empathy 2* 40. Iron Will 3* 41. Spatial Awareness 3* 42. Empathy 3* 43. Iron Will 4* 44. Spatial Awareness 4* 45. Empathy 4* 46. Iron Will 5* 47. Spatial Awareness 5* 48. Empathy 5* * Order doesn't matter. 49. Focus 1 50. Clarity 1 51. Presence 1 52. Focus 2 53. Clarity 2 54. Presence 2 55. Focus 3 56. Clarity 3 57. Presence 3 58. Focus 4 59. Clarity 4 60. Presence 4 61. Focus 5 62. Clarity 5 63. Presence 5
"Those who don't learn history are doomed to repeat the mistakes of the past." Hopefully newbies will understand why vets get a bit cranky when new ideas about increasing the skill training rate come up.
You can tell me what is and isn't Truth when you pry the tinfoil from my cold, lifeless head.
|

Azemar
Order of the Silver Dragons Eternal Evocations
3
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Posted - 2012.04.25 00:17:00 -
[15] - Quote
While I do not have the knowledge to properly create it, I still feel as if there should be some way to actively increase your training time. A way that would have no grinding and incorporate no P2W. The current system benefits only old players and discourages new ones. |

Elsbeth Taron
Elsbeth Taron Corporation
4
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Posted - 2012.04.25 05:02:00 -
[16] - Quote
Azemar wrote:While I do not have the knowledge to properly create it, I still feel as if there should be some way to actively increase your training time. A way that would have no grinding and incorporate no P2W. The current system benefits only old players and discourages new ones.
I'm sure you've noticed those most against any notion of increasing training speed are the older players. |

Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
441
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Posted - 2012.04.25 06:04:00 -
[17] - Quote
Azemar wrote:While I do not have the knowledge to properly create it, I still feel as if there should be some way to actively increase your training time. A way that would have no grinding and incorporate no P2W. The current system benefits only old players and discourages new ones.
There already is one. You've been told about it. Hint: character bazaar.... |

Sable Moran
Moran Light Industries
37
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Posted - 2012.04.25 07:13:00 -
[18] - Quote
Elsbeth Taron wrote:Azemar wrote:While I do not have the knowledge to properly create it, I still feel as if there should be some way to actively increase your training time. A way that would have no grinding and incorporate no P2W. The current system benefits only old players and discourages new ones. I'm sure you've noticed those most against any notion of increasing training speed are the older players.
Yes, it's mostly us old players. But not for the reasons you think.
We don't oppose these ideas because they would give a new player a leg up or give them 'an unfair advantage' or anything silly like that.
We oppose those ideas because we actually know how eve works because, you know, we've played EvE for a while now, and know how various kinds of 'ideas' would negatively impact eve. The train of thought goes something line this: Oh god, not this dead horse again, why don't they use search before blurting these 'new' ideas!, Rage! NO!
Besides there's always the Malcanis' law hanging above these ideas like Damocles sword.
So, next time think a bit harder before typing, thanks.
EDIT: Active skill training bonus? Nay. It was a feature in eve when it launched, it was also removed in the very first major patch (Castor Dec-2003) for being exploitable and a silly idea in general. Sable's Ammo Shop at Alentene V - Moon 4 - Duvolle Laboratories Factory. Hybrid charges, Projectile ammo, Missiles, Drones, Ships, Need'em? We have'em, at affordable prices. Pop in at our Ammo Shop in sunny Alentene. |

Elsbeth Taron
Elsbeth Taron Corporation
4
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Posted - 2012.04.25 17:45:00 -
[19] - Quote
Sable Moran wrote: Yes, it's mostly us old players. But not for the reasons you think.
We don't oppose these ideas because they would give a new player a leg up or give them 'an unfair advantage' or anything silly like that.
Why would I think that?
Sable Moran wrote: We oppose those ideas because we actually know how eve works because, you know, we've played EvE for a while now, and know how various kinds of 'ideas' would negatively impact eve. The train of thought goes something line this: Oh god, not this dead horse again, why don't they use search before blurting these 'new' ideas!, Rage! NO!
Besides there's always the Malcanis' law hanging above these ideas like Damocles sword.
So, next time think a bit harder before typing, thanks.
What a wonderfully pompous parting shot.
Sable Moran wrote: EDIT: Active skill training bonus? Nay. It was a feature in eve when it launched, it was also removed in the very first major patch (Castor Dec-2003) for being exploitable and a silly idea in general.
Silly? People learn faster if they use the skill, as opposed to sitting on their arses while a skill appears magically in their minds after a set period? Why is that silly?
This passive training conflicts with so much of Eve. Success in hitting a target depends on a lot of factors, all of them true in the real world. Flying a ship isn't quite true, but factors in mass and agility so it isn't far fetched. Yet when it comes to learning new skills no work is involved. I can be on holiday, away from the game, and return to have the same ship bonuses as someone who played and flew daily the ship.
The OP is not wrong in raising this point, nor is he wrong in saying the current setup favours old-timers. I would have thought their experience in the game would be enough of a bonus.
So as the topic is how to reward players for being active in the game, how about speed up training in Minmatar Cruiser depending on my standing with the Minmatar Republic? Can't see how that can be exploited, I'll have put in the hours getting that standing. Maybe also benefit training in projectile weapons, as they're our favoured weapons.
I don't think it's a bad idea rewarding active play. Hardly silly. |

Pyrosomniac
VC Academy
14
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Posted - 2012.04.25 18:15:00 -
[20] - Quote
I believe the idea is good, but for it to mesh with current game mechanics should NEVER happen.
The only way I'd see it being included is by introducing an entire line of skills that can ONLY be trained in this fashion, and no other way. Not only that, but they couldn't be as influential as any other skill. They'd have to be so niche that it doesn't affect the current meta game.
Prime example would be Social Skills. It doesn't make a lot of sense that people like you because you read a book. Social would be gained by missioning with different NPC's of different personalities. Connections would be earned by having ACTUAL connections, Diplomacy is earned by being a Diplomat for your race, eg, helping out Amarr people as Gallente.
But the problem with that is that you can't just implement that! They've been around for ages, people have trained them already. How do you adjust that? You can't do that on the fly, which is why I believe it has to be done with a new set of skills that do not impact the game in any way significantly, which then begs the question as to why the skills are there in the first place!
TL;DR: Interesting concept, but realistically implementing it without enraging everyone is impossible. |

stoicfaux
978
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Posted - 2012.04.25 19:09:00 -
[21] - Quote
Elsbeth Taron wrote: So as the topic is how to reward players for being active in the game, how about speed up training in Minmatar Cruiser depending on my standing with the Minmatar Republic? Can't see how that can be exploited, I'll have put in the hours getting that standing. Maybe also benefit training in projectile weapons, as they're our favoured weapons.
Botting would be the main problem. Currently there are bots that will grind missions, rat, mine, etc., all day. That is what you would be up against. Plus, as pointed out earlier, you can grind without botting. This would just lead to more server load as people shot at each other in permatanked ships in order to grind up skills. Long story short, active skill training would result in more people botting, macroing, and/or putting their guns on auto-repeat instead of actually playing the game.
One of the big attractions to the Eve training system is that you're not required to grind skills while sitting at the keyboard. Instead, you can come home, hop in your ship and do X, where X is anything more fun then performing the same set of keystrokes over and over to watch some skill meter increase by a fraction.
A one hour a week player may have the same skills as a forty hours a week player, but the one hour a week player probably isn't going to be as good at flying his Rifter in PvP. In Eve, skills are often more of a means to an end than an actual goal in and of themselves. Meaning, player ability and teamwork will trump a "high level" character.
Grinding would also be more efficient versus PvE content, however Eve is more about playing in a PvP sandbox than PvE content, so skill grinding goes against Eve's gameplay paradigm. Active skill grinding in Eve would be like grinding up the skills of a pawn in the game of chess; it doesn't really fit the game.
Basically, skill training has already been massively boosted with the removal of the learning skills, you have decent control over your training rate via implants and remaps, grinding doesn't fit the Eve gameplay paradigm, and anything that is grindy will be botted, which is why people tend to frown on the idea of active/grindy skill training.
You can tell me what is and isn't Truth when you pry the tinfoil from my cold, lifeless head.
|

Versuvius Marii
Browncoats of Persephone Ironworks Coalition
66
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Posted - 2012.04.26 02:32:00 -
[22] - Quote
Richecks Ecks wrote:What if there was a skill (active learning) or something that was to give a slight boost for your current train? i.e.- youre training mining. if mining, you get a -2%, -4%, -6% train time if actively using the skill. - using tungston hybrid ammo or any long range ammo while training sharpshooter? Neural remap. And no. The Gaming MoD - retro to modern, console to MMO, I blog about it if it's a game and I'm interested in it. Yes, I play games other than Eve and I don't care if you think I'm wrong. |

IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2012.04.26 02:57:00 -
[23] - Quote
No... And umm no! |

Boomhaur
24
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Posted - 2012.04.26 03:05:00 -
[24] - Quote
Lets just say screw it and bring back learning skills, and than implement the whole you train your skills faster for skills you use. This way when I want to train up my autocannons I can jump into a reaper and shoot at roids all day with a civ autocannon while AFK. Ohh and I want to pay AUR for SP. And I don't want an eyepatch I want my freaking pegleg and a hook for a hand and a freaking pony that shoots laser beams out of its freaking head, I shall call him Amarr. |

Elsbeth Taron
Elsbeth Taron Corporation
4
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Posted - 2012.04.26 07:29:00 -
[25] - Quote
Boomhaur wrote:Lets just say screw it and bring back learning skills, and than implement the whole you train your skills faster for skills you use. This way when I want to train up my autocannons I can jump into a reaper and shoot at roids all day with a civ autocannon while AFK. Ohh and I want to pay AUR for SP. And I don't want an eyepatch I want my freaking pegleg and a hook for a hand and a freaking pony that shoots laser beams out of its freaking head, I shall call him Amarr.
Any idea what you want for your eleventh birthday?  |

Elsbeth Taron
Elsbeth Taron Corporation
4
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Posted - 2012.04.26 07:33:00 -
[26] - Quote
stoicfaux wrote:Elsbeth Taron wrote: So as the topic is how to reward players for being active in the game, how about speed up training in Minmatar Cruiser depending on my standing with the Minmatar Republic? Can't see how that can be exploited, I'll have put in the hours getting that standing. Maybe also benefit training in projectile weapons, as they're our favoured weapons.
Botting would be the main problem. Currently there are bots that will grind ....
This was one of the very few sane responses; even I gave it a thumbs up.
So the idea is OK, but the game mechanics probably make it unfeasable. Fair enough. |

Col Arran
Crimson Raven Knights
9
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Posted - 2012.04.26 23:27:00 -
[27] - Quote
Nay, I didn't come to EVE to have it turn into WoW. |

Zanza Mechonis
Vulkan Innovations
0
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Posted - 2012.04.27 00:08:00 -
[28] - Quote
Nope, nope, and nope. What I personally like about the skills is that, even though my computer at this point in time can not run EVE for more than 15 minutes before crashing (bad functioning cooling system on my laptop and getting old for a gaming-aimed computer as well), I can still train skills without any problems. I log on once a day, put skills in the queue, and I'm good to go. This is even MORE useful for skills past level II or III obviously, as they take more than a day...
Having skill train times reduced as additional reward for more active playing still gives people an unfair advantage, as they have more time to play. People who have a very small time window to play the game, because of any reason, should not be put at a disadvantage as opposed to the more active people. |

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6309
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 01:09:00 -
[29] - Quote
Elsbeth Taron wrote:So as the topic is how to reward players for being active in the game They are already being rewarded. They earn more ISK; they become better at the game; they form more bonds.
Again, the idea has been tried GÇö it only generates bad behaviour and distracts people from actually playing the game. It is also impossible to make it universally applicable to the wide skill set EVE offers and cannot be balanced properly across all the play styles. And finally, it doesn't solve any problem. In fact, all mechanics throughout the history of EVE that have been working in kind of the same direction as this idea have methodically been removed because they cause problems, so adding anything of the kind back in will not only fail to address any problems but will actually create new ones. That is not a good direction to GÇ£developGÇ¥ the game.
Quote:So the idea is OK, but the game mechanics probably make it unfeasable Not really. The idea is bad, and there are no mechanics to remove those bad parts and salvage anything useful from it. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |

RubyPorto
Profoundly Disturbed
1454
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 10:24:00 -
[30] - Quote
Azemar wrote:While I do not have the knowledge to properly create it, I still feel as if there should be some way to actively increase your training time. A way that would have no grinding and incorporate no P2W. The current system benefits only old players and discourages new ones.
Multiple characters, strict specialization on each. You'll achieve the same breadth and depth of SP as an older character in a very short period of time. You'll even have the benefit of cheaper clone costs for fighting toons, along with the ability to be anywhere you want, whenever you want (if you spread your toons out).
As for active increase in training time without grind or P2W...
- without a repetitive action (grind), the game wouldn't be able to measure progress, if you wanted to tie training to doing stuff in game.
- without some payment, it's not active, if you wanted to tie training into paying for something (hint: they're called Learning Implants, and they've been around a while).
The current system benefits casual/intermittant players, and discourages impatient players. Working as intended. Single-Shard, Player DrivenSandbox.
5 words. That's what makes it special. |
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