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Drab Cane
Mining Emporium inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.24 18:48:00 -
[1]
A recent 1 billion ISK bond (here) was recently lapped up by investors, despite there being no collateral, and the OP refused to allow an audit. Is this a setback to the overall maturation of the IPO/Bond market? Is this another example of too many people with too much cash, willing to throw their ISK at any venture in sight?
On closer examination, I don't think so. The offer was formatted similar to the IPO template, and covered all the issues and concerns. The OP had at least considered the possibility of an audit. The bond's offered interest is relatively high, in an effort to reflect the risk level of the investment.
IMHO, the bond is an example that IPO/Bond standards are being used, and that audited IPO/Bonds may yet become the standard as well.
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- Who Dares, Wins |
Noonesoski
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Posted - 2009.02.24 21:22:00 -
[2]
So, is that your way of being rhetorical?
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LaVista Vista
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Posted - 2009.02.24 21:28:00 -
[3]
Set-back, imo.
It's a natural evolution that we would start requiring audits.
Fool = Scam. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.
It's bound to happen. If you want to evolve and survive in this market, you need to progress on and adopt new ways of dealing with bonds, i.e audits.
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Drab Cane
Mining Emporium inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.24 21:52:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: Noonesoski
So, is that your way of being rhetorical?
Yes and no. 
I wanted to give my opinion first, to start things off. But I'm mostly interested in hearing other people's opinions on the main question.
I'm all for IPO/Bond standards and auditing, but we need two things to make it happen - the standards need to be created, and they need to be accepted by a critical mass of investors and IPO/Bond managers alike.
Without that momentum of support from the players, the whole standards movement will be just an academic exercise.
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- Who Dares, Wins |
Brock Nelson
Caldari
Flux Technologies Inc
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Posted - 2009.02.24 22:02:00 -
[5]
What auditor would bother auditing a mere 1 billion bond
Fake edit: Oh wait...
Blueprint Store |
Kazzac Elentria
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Posted - 2009.02.24 22:09:00 -
[6]
I missed it, otherwise I would have used it as a testing ground for the audit standard model. |
DragonRiderTao
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Posted - 2009.02.24 23:51:00 -
[7]
A step for mankind. Nature's natural affair. The lies will be seen.
How many dragons can you slay? You cant slay mine. |
Drab Cane
Mining Emporium inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.25 00:35:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Drab Cane on 25/02/2009 00:37:30
All things in their time
Will be brought to fruition
Que sera, sera
Perhaps, perhaps . . .
Edit: Had to fix syllable count
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- Who Dares, Wins |
Hexxx
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.02.25 00:42:00 -
[9]
I'd like to see standards being used more frequently, but I think the market uses them at an acceptable level for now.
Once a few more things are in place (like a highly liquid exchange for securities) I think we'll see wider spread adoption. The markets have matured incrementally through the years and I've been satisfied with the progress so far.
Can we do better? We can and we will.
EBANK - Chairman of the Board | www.eve-bank.net
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Forceflow
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2009.02.25 02:30:00 -
[10]
I won't count it as recent.
It was back in dec when it was offered alongside Atima Industries.
Cosmary actually did a comparison between the two since Atima was 80% locked down by Kazuo and was gone in less than a day.
Thread in question. All hail eve-search. 
Also: graph of atima reservations vs time.
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Kifor Hellhund
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Posted - 2009.02.25 02:41:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Kifor Hellhund on 25/02/2009 02:42:02
One person sees another buying gains confidence in the product and makes his/her purchase. How do you sort out how many actually purchased shares? I'm new* to the forums so I do not know if the persons buying shares were shills, but I noted that the first several had no corporation tag.
*not new to eve, but I generally stay off the forums.
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Brock Nelson
Caldari
Flux Technologies Inc
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Posted - 2009.02.25 03:02:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Brock Nelson on 25/02/2009 03:02:56
That's a good question, in fact the reverse of that method is commonly used for corporations to buy their own stock at lower price in RL (CEOs says "something bad is coming, stock sell cheap as a result, corp buys it up). I think Hexxx mentioned that before.
It's a good method for scammers to build their reputation within the market discussion forum by buying up shares himself through alts but it all comes down to good auditors looking for odd transactions.
For those that were not audited, investors should be wary of future offering, especially for larger asking.
Blueprint Store |
Hexxx
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.02.25 03:10:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Brock Nelson
Edited by: Brock Nelson on 25/02/2009 03:02:56
That's a good question, in fact the reverse of that method is commonly used for corporations to buy their own stock at lower price in RL (CEOs says "something bad is coming, stock sell cheap as a result, corp buys it up). I think Hexxx mentioned that before.
It's a good method for scammers to build their reputation within the market discussion forum by buying up shares himself through alts but it all comes down to good auditors looking for odd transactions.
For those that were not audited, investors should be wary of future offering, especially for larger asking.
I could go on here...but let me point out some things...
A highly liquid exchange will make possible many things, here are a few of them.
- A corporation buying up it's own stock so that dividends are reduced. Faith in the long term growth of the company may cause this, as may unfair investor sentiments that punish the stock.
- A corporation buying up it's own debt, reducing it's burden to bond-holders.
- As a way to compensate employees or staff of the company, paying them with stock instead of cash who can then either sell stock to buyers or keep it themselves if they feel the stock will grow.
All sorts of things that aren't practical now will become practical with a highly liquid exchange. Not least of which is pump-and-dump schemes or the reverse (CEO says "OH NOES!" investors flee, stock price tanks, CEO cackles and buys up his own stock on the cheap to either keep or resell later once the price recovers).
And yes, I'm actually thinking about ways to combat these kinds of problems.
EBANK - Chairman of the Board | www.eve-bank.net
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Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2009.02.25 03:44:00 -
[14]
The impotency of shares lies in the fact that secondary market confidence, or lack of confidence, has zero impact upon the issuer's ability to operate. There is no credit line that shrinks, no centralized banking that has notes it can call, and no investor's board that can fire executives.
Til then, all the power of shares is pre-ipo. Post ipo, investors are hostages.
My old mercenary(PVP) corp is recruiting again. Would you believe I'm giving them my signature block for free? |
Hexxx
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.02.25 03:52:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Shar Tegral
The impotency of shares lies in the fact that secondary market confidence, or lack of confidence, has zero impact upon the issuer's ability to operate. There is no credit line that shrinks, no centralized banking that has notes it can call, and no investor's board that can fire executives.
Til then, all the power of shares is pre-ipo. Post ipo, investors are hostages.
Unless shares are used as compensation (employees get irritated if share prices drop) or if the company retains shares itself (50% say) in which case tanking share value will hit their equity.
I would also argue that a tanking share price could hurt bond issues by that company, as investor confidence can be pretty tied to financing in EVE in the absence of full collateral.
Now you have a good point about the investors board....and I'd like to somehow address that but I don't have any good ideas right now. Investors should have a say in public companies.
EBANK - Chairman of the Board | www.eve-bank.net
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Ricdic
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.02.25 04:11:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Hexxx
Not least of which is pump-and-dump schemes or the reverse (CEO says "OH NOES!" investors flee, stock price tanks, CEO cackles and buys up his own stock on the cheap to either keep or resell later once the price recovers).
I was under the impression this was highly illegal.
One could suspect that DBANK could be taking this approach having a very low forum presence and delays in customer service causing people to question their validity which in turn allows their 4 month CD customers to terminate their accounts prematurely forgoing all interest accrued.
Just a theory. |
Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2009.02.25 04:22:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Ricdic
Drivel
It's always nice of Ric to come along and show us examples of how a group running one project can have people of differing opinions, agendas, and IQ's. Shame he has to go putting his best face forward, his ass, in the example. So, keep in mind, Hexxx and others may really want to encourage competition. However ****y boy only wants more targets to troll.
My old mercenary(PVP) corp is recruiting again. Would you believe I'm giving them my signature block for free? |
Hexxx
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.02.25 05:54:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Shar Tegral
Originally by: Ricdic
Drivel
It's always nice of Ric to come along and show us examples of how a group running one project can have people of differing opinions, agendas, and IQ's. Shame he has to go putting his best face forward, his ass, in the example. So, keep in mind, Hexxx and others may really want to encourage competition. However ****y boy only wants more targets to troll.
It is possible to make a point without drooping to the level of personal insults.
To Ricdic's point, it isn't outside the realm of possibility, but to be honest after my numerous conversations with DBANK people I doubt this is the case. They seem committed to building something stable and sustainable.
My original thoughts on the topic are just pointing out that there are a raft of issues that the MD community may have to face in the future. Best we start thinking of ways to deal with it sooner rather than later.
EBANK - Chairman of the Board | www.eve-bank.net
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Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2009.02.25 06:33:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Hexxx
It is possible to make a point without drooping to the level of personal insults.
Perhaps you may wish to suggest some restraint be exercised all around. I'm more than happy to not see Ric unfairly chopping people in the back of the neck simply because... ... ??? a: He can b: He's drunk (again) c: He's tired (again) d: He's quit smoking (again) e: He's got a misfiring neuron somewhere (again) f: He's gave into a fit of ADD (again) (I could go on.) For all the reputation I have as a loose cannon never once have I come out of the blue and said anything that eBank had to regret. However when my reputation was on the line Ric said, and continues to say, things that should not, and could not, be allowed to stand as is. He's acting the fool and an ass. And you, my dear friend, is simply playing spin doctor when you say, " To Ricdic's point, it isn't outside the realm of possibility". Great thing, when you add insult the victim after the injury. The only thing truly outside the realm of possibility... me not calling this kind of behavior pathetic. You know, this kind of crap makes anything I say good about eBank turn into ashes in my mouth.
My old mercenary(PVP) corp is recruiting again. Would you believe I'm giving them my signature block for free? |
Ricdic
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.02.25 06:38:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Ricdic on 25/02/2009 06:43:54
Originally by: Shar Tegral
It's always nice of Ric to come along and show us examples of how a group running one project can have people of differing opinions, agendas, and IQ's. Shame he has to go putting his best face forward, his ass, in the example.
Actually there is precedence of this happening. Naphalia (EMFI) was believed to have done this, causing EMFI stocks to drop to pathetic levels as everyone thought it was a scam. Then someone bought the stocks en masse and the announcement came that everything was business as usual.
Point is, Manalapan has had offers from EBANK staff to move over to help with DBANK and all have been hit with a brick wall. Manalapan is obviously having trouble keeping up with things so having a heavily trusted and proven member of our staff move over there temporarily to help out should have been accepted with glee.
Based on your posts over the past few days Shar it is obvious you have become a DBANK staff member. I fear you may be risking jumping on board a sinking ship if Manalapan doesn't pick up his game.
My largest concern at this point was mentioned above. Manalapan doesn't have time to post on these forums, speak to any of his staff, nor process any withdrawals even though he is the only teller. How then, does he have time to generate 30b/month interest through market trading?
DBANK's high interest rates means they are paying almost as much interest on 500b that we are paying on 2000b. That's all good and great for DBANK customers if it's happening but as above my concern is that DBANK aren't generating any new income whilst Manalapan is dealing with his non-gaming issues which in turn can cause a catastrophic failure when interest obligations exceed cash on hand/assets.
This combined with the delays in tellering and communication deficiencies will only cause more withdrawals which in turn means even less money is available for investment.
Shar you need to learn how to be objective. It's quite obvious that just because you have some affiliation with DBANK you are now trying to defend it but that is the wrong attitude to have as an auditor. |
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Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2009.02.25 06:40:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Shar Tegral on 25/02/2009 06:40:29
You are not worth the ban I'd get for saying that.
My old mercenary(PVP) corp is recruiting again. Would you believe I'm giving them my signature block for free? |
Ricdic
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.02.25 06:56:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Ricdic on 25/02/2009 07:02:09
Edited by: Ricdic on 25/02/2009 07:01:22
Come on Shar, I am sure you know how to have a civilised conversation. As a non-DBANK employee you must see where things could be vastly improved with little work.
How about we change the structure instead.
Could you please find out and advise on the following from Manalapan:
1) How much time is he currently devoting to DBANK?
2) Why did he choose to decline the temporary teller agreement offered to him?
3) Does he not have enough time to even post on a forum explaining on delays etc?
4) Is he really interested in seeing DBANK through or has he become bored of the project?
Secondly, from his API keys would you be able to determine:
1) Has Manalapan trading been sufficient numbers to cover DBANK interest obligations?
Look, I am all for giving DBANK every opportunity but fact is that any bank related scam/failure has a direct result on people's perception on banking in Eve and in turn has an affect on EBANK. This is why it's crucial to do what we can to make sure that DBANK is ok.
In almost every case of scam/disapearance it has been preluded with a vanishing act by the owner. The owner moves further and further away from the public until suddenly they don't come back. Salpad is a loyal DBANK supporter and he should have been made a bank teller months ago. All these delays and lack of communication could and still can be easily avoided but all I see is silence on the other end.
Take it as an attack if you like Shar or you can take it as a genuine attempt to try and hammer some sense into Manalapan and get him to either shut down DBANK or put it back into shape. The only alternative is failure.
edit: I should clarify those questions above. I don't expect Manalapan to shed light on all of their operations etc but those questions above are crucial to the running operation of DBANK. If the answers are less than satisfactory ALL DBANK customers (and yes I am a DBANK customer) should know. |
Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2009.02.25 07:28:00 -
[23]
My statements about you were not defending dBank. It was about you and your consistent bad behavior. This thread had nothing to do with dBank but yet you decided to go hijack this thread when another was readily available.
You want to know why they don't respond to your offers? Because of you personally. You seem to have some sort of vendetta going here. Sadly the one you have with me is also working it's way in. Sad but not unlike you.
As to my objectivity, are you still playing this same old sad tune? My position vis a vis dBank has been made quite clear. My access to information has also been made quite clear. My regular interactions with Manalpan is clear (not to mention the fact that he rarely posts on these forums). I've also told you that other tellers are coming online and the reasons for careful deliberation are plain and apparent.
Now, since you seem to be going on and on and drawing lines in the sand, do you want to call me a liar? Do not go into misled as I have direct access to facts, not opinion, though you seem to want to debate opinion in the face of facts. In essence, you are again, as usual, acting an ass and the fool for no positive gain of any kind.
After this point, do not think that you and I will ever have any reasonable or polite conversation. I have no confidence in your ability to remain objective and I have quite honestly lost any confidence in anyone connected with eBank.
In a nutshell, those who speak in your defense over your indefensible behaviors are liars and those who don't are condoning your actions. And that means anyone and everyone.
My old mercenary(PVP) corp is recruiting again. Would you believe I'm giving them my signature block for free? |
Caleb Ayrania
Gallente
TarNec
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Posted - 2009.02.25 07:30:00 -
[24]
Just thought I would point out the little fact that all this back and fourth is basically the result of MD not standing together and agreeing on some needed features from the devs..
The scc traded stock as a function.. (as in optional) There are more exchanges and types in real life to.. IS SERIOUSLY NEEDED..
The actual tools to have game mechanic differeing on vote granting stocks and not vote granting stocks (for emissions) is highly usefull and should be something we all wanted..
The option in corp to decide what type of changes was vote demanding and which was CEO prerogative would not only be usefull but the BOB incident proves it was need post facto..
There is generally a whole line of things, small and large that the MDs should really lobby on, and work towards..
This bickering and mud throwing is really stupid.. Its been f**ng 7-8 years and gfx and combat balancing is what ccp has spend most time on..
The mere concentration of intelligent people in MD should have reached critical mass to finally stand together and push for some actual "loving" as it is so often reffered..
Heres to hope.. again...
- Money is Love -
Sometimes it just gets bend the wrong ways.
Feed your Brain:
Innovation Thread |
Ricdic
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.02.25 07:37:00 -
[25]
Once you are finished with that Shar can you please chase up my questions? |
LaVista Vista
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Posted - 2009.02.25 07:38:00 -
[26]
Quote:
The scc traded stock as a function.. (as in optional) There are more exchanges and types in real life to.. IS SERIOUSLY NEEDED..
If you are saying a player-driven stock-market, then I see your point. I already lobbied for that during my first term.
But EVE isn't mature enough for it.
Quote:
The actual tools to have game mechanic differeing on vote granting stocks and not vote granting stocks (for emissions) is highly usefull and should be something we all wanted..
Already lobbied for.
Quote:
The option in corp to decide what type of changes was vote demanding and which was CEO prerogative would not only be usefull but the BOB incident proves it was need post facto..
Already covered.
Quote:
There is generally a whole line of things, small and large that the MDs should really lobby on, and work towards..
I'm not laying on the idle side despite what it might look like if you have done your research.
Quote:
This bickering and mud throwing is really stupid..
I agree. Seriously Shar and Ric, fight it out on messenger or something.
Quote:
Its been f**ng 7-8 years and gfx and combat balancing is what ccp has spend most time on..
What did you honestly expect? I like new graphics and I like balanced combat. It's CCP's core business.
Quote:
The mere concentration of intelligent people in MD should have reached critical mass to finally stand together and push for some actual "loving" as it is so often reffered..
The fact MD has been represented for about 10 months now by a CSM candidate(Hi!) and we had a massive thread with 13 pages and 2 dev responses proves to me that CCP are listening. Just give it time.
You are getting stuck in "we need love, CCP is hindering out development". Come up with a clever solution to all the things that stops a stock market from happening and I will bring it to CCP. Until then, rhetorics is a silly way of trying to do anything. I'm sorry, but it just make you look kinda ignorant to the last 10 months worth of MD history.
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Caleb Ayrania
Gallente
TarNec
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Posted - 2009.02.25 08:06:00 -
[27]
Please dont mistake my lack of faith as disrespect. The fact that you call maturity on the scc traded stockmarket is basically akin to a red flag in my face. Its exactly the same drivel I got back in 2004, when it might actually have been true.
Oh and ccp core biz is mmorpg and world simulation. If I wanted gfx and pve grind I would really playing something thats a lot better at those things than EVE.
Oh and I have done nothing but give proposals on fixing and balancing and adding content to this gamers pearl called EVE.
I am not saying these things to rain on your work Vista, I am saying this to actually get you a unison backed choir..
I would not disrespect someone actually trying to make a change like yourself. I just really think roleplay/player story content and economy is next in line.. Its been waiting since launch tbh..
- Money is Love -
Sometimes it just gets bend the wrong ways.
Feed your Brain:
Innovation Thread |
Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2009.02.25 08:13:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Caleb
This bickering and mud throwing is really stupid..
Originally by: LaVista Vista
I agree. Seriously Shar and Ric, fight it out on messenger or something.
Tried it, didn't work, not surprised. I tossed some bad words at him, he kept saying "wolf". He says he's fighting to help protect all of you, the secondary market, and he's concerned for my own reputation if his opinion should somehow be right. Myself, knowing how often Ric has stepped in trying to save me, think he's full of it. In the end, we shall see if what I'm seeing and looking at is true or if Ric's guesses and slander is true. For myself, I'm tired of it. I'll just sit back and watch Ric's continued attempt to PR Assassinate his competition.
My old mercenary(PVP) corp is recruiting again. Would you believe I'm giving them my signature block for free? |
Hexxx
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.02.25 08:24:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Caleb Ayrania
Please dont mistake my lack of faith as disrespect. The fact that you call maturity on the scc traded stockmarket is basically akin to a red flag in my face. Its exactly the same drivel I got back in 2004, when it might actually have been true.
Oh and ccp core biz is mmorpg and world simulation. If I wanted gfx and pve grind I would really playing something thats a lot better at those things than EVE.
Oh and I have done nothing but give proposals on fixing and balancing and adding content to this gamers pearl called EVE.
I am not saying these things to rain on your work Vista, I am saying this to actually get you a unison backed choir..
I would not disrespect someone actually trying to make a change like yourself. I just really think roleplay/player story content and economy is next in line.. Its been waiting since launch tbh..
Caleb,
I think I understand your frustrations, and most of us here share them to various degrees. However, we can't rely solely on CCP to come up with solutions....and I would argue that we don't.
I think RESX, ESGSE, DBANK, and EBANK are all good examples of players trying to compensate for EVE feature shortfalls. Further,LV was elected to the CSM on a platform of pushing market interests to CCP. If nothing else, he would be able to get a more direct audience and a better shot at getting our concerns heard. I think he's done pretty well at it.
We have to focus on workable solutions and we get closer to this everyday.
As for the Shar vs. Ricdic stuff...there's a lot of history there, don't mistake that for a lack of solidarity. Most of the MD is united in their efforts but there are some notable exceptions/fueds. Most of us steer clear of that.
EBANK - Chairman of the Board | www.eve-bank.net
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Ricdic
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.02.25 08:28:00 -
[30]
All of my statements and questions above are quite clear. Even if I wanted too I wouldn't need to try and assassinate DBANK through bad PR. Their own actions (if kept on the same path) will hurt them the most. Oh and Shar is right, he swore 11 times in our MSN conversation |
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