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Omarvelous
Destry's Lounge
Important Internet Spaceship League
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Posted - 2009.02.25 14:59:00 -
[1]
I have had a couple fights against a corp that does extensive RR BS, and I'm impressed. I've looked at their KB and the few BS they've lost were fit with:
- MWD (I assume to stay close and get to target)
- Cap Injector (keep repping)
- Armor buffer tanked
- ECCM fitted when possible.
- 2x Large remote armor reps - even on ship with only 1 spare utility slot (ie Megathron), a gun was sacrificed to maintain 2x large remote reps (6x Neutron Cannons 2x Large RR).
I'm trying to come up with a viable counter. Part of my problem is a lot of my BS pilots are shield tankers (I myself started out as a shield tanker and have crossed trained armor/Gallente ships) so setting up a RR gang of my own is difficult.
- Can I setup a RR shield rep gang with Ravens? I would love to see any fit available. If shield RR sucks vs armor RR, explain why.
- I believe I should have changed targets when their RR was beating our combined DPS. I assume when RR - you manually lock up your own team's primary and try to rep - so switching targets would buy us 5-6 seconds of damage before they switched to the new primary. Problem is our local tanks were utter crap under focused fire and I can't switch fast enough before I've lost guys.
- Both sides have ECM, no Falcon advantage.
- I'm considering the use of tracking disruptors to lower their damage. Is it worthwhile to experiment with TD when its a BS vs. BS fight?
- I think a RR Domi would be useful - and less obvious than a logistics cruiser. I think a sniper BS in our gang to fire on hostile falcons would be useful in freeing up our ecm to try to break up their RR (which is tough with their eccm).
- What would you bring vs a 7-10 man RR gang?
What are some popular RR BS? I've tried an armor tanking raven and the ship lacks the grid to fit a 1600mm plate, siege II torps, and a pair of large RR. I don't know if I'll be able to get much a RR gang myself considering my guys fly so many mix tanked ships in fleet.
How do you fight competent RR BS pilots? Its a bit of a new area for me, since most of my BS fights have been against localized tanks, and my own gang flies mixed tanks.
Important Internet Spaceship League Wants You |
Eardianm
Duty.
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Posted - 2009.02.25 15:04:00 -
[2]
in before falcon spam
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2009.02.25 15:16:00 -
[3]
Problems with shield RR BS:
Most BS armour-tank
Erm, so who's brought the tackle/ewar/ECCM then?
Crippling CPU requirements of shield transfers
If you really want to bring a Raven to an armour RR gang, fit for ECM-suppression - Cruise, dual large RR, 250 km range and cap booster, lots of ECCM, DC, dual plate and dual EANM.
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H Lecter
Gallente
The Black Rabbits
The Gurlstas Associates
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Posted - 2009.02.25 15:54:00 -
[4]
RR+buffer > local rep.
You will only stand a chance if you set your fleet up in the same coordinated manner like the opponent.
Personally I have only experience with RR BS so I cannot really comment on the viability of shield transfer setups. Some Curses neuting the hell out of the opponent (not the primary, only the guys around him!) could be a solution.
Good luck 
My opinion may or may not be shared by my alliance |
Omarvelous
Destry's Lounge
Important Internet Spaceship League
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Posted - 2009.02.25 17:20:00 -
[5]
Thanks for the replies. I think I will need some more utility Domis (neuts, logistics). I suppose the lack of ewar essentially shuts off RR shields. Which means even the Ravens will have to go armor. Dual plates - dual large RR - MWD - Cap injector will require a grid implant or a reduction from 2x large RR to a single, or I drop the plate for a smaller plate or more resists or a ballistic control.
Gallente: Domi - maybe sacrificing a gun on a mega.
Caldari: Raven - Scorpion.
Minmatar: Tempest - the slot layout almost begs a RR setup. Too bad we don't have but 1 of them lol.
Amarr: I'm guessing an Armageddon - that loses a gun like the Mega.
Thoughts on my tracking disruptors idea? Are they worthwhile in a BS vs BS fight?
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Tzar'rim
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Posted - 2009.02.25 17:41:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Tzar''rim on 25/02/2009 17:48:49
If you can't break their tank you can't kill them, so all tracking disruptors do is lower their dps output but don't actually stop them from repping. Damps don't work too well either as it takes a lot of damps to get a single BS below 8km locking meaning it's just not effective enough.
The only solution is falcons, tons of them. Or ofcourse a silly amount of focussed dps, but when you have that then you'd have no problems with them in the first place. Heavy neuting can work as well but not if you use it in bursts and the neuts need to go on the ships around the primary, not the primary itself. Trying to bump one of them out of repping range is an option, but it requires a ship specifically fit for it and it's not easy.
It's an effective strategy which you can only defeat with massive dps or ECM. And yes, having mostly shield tankers isn't helping. You lose so many midslots for cool/useful stuff it's annoying.
If both sides are equal ECM wise then the best way to break them is to use high damage BS's. Megas, Geddons, Phoons, armor tanked torp ravens. If you drop 2-3 ion Megas and phoon or so on a BS it's going to take some amazing repping to stay alive. Thing is ofcourse that the more ships they have the stronger their rep becomes.
Self-proclaimed idiot
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kelisin
Gallente
Death's Phalanx
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Posted - 2009.02.25 17:47:00 -
[7]
You can allways fly a few neuting ships in your fleet. Best bet is to try to get them to jump into a system your in that way they spend precious seconds getting back to each other in which case you can web and maybe kill 1.
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Tzar'rim
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Posted - 2009.02.25 17:51:00 -
[8]
Yes, RR gangs rely on static fights where the enemy WANTS to turn it into a slugging match. Deny them the static scenario and they lose their strength.
Self-proclaimed idiot
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Omarvelous
Destry's Lounge
Important Internet Spaceship League
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Posted - 2009.02.25 18:21:00 -
[9]
 Originally by: Tzar'rim
Yes, RR gangs rely on static fights where the enemy WANTS to turn it into a slugging match. Deny them the static scenario and they lose their strength.
How do I deny the static fight, while inflicting kills on them?
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Weeka
Lyonesse.
KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.25 18:28:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Omarvelous
Amarr: I'm guessing an Armageddon - that loses a gun like the Mega.
Can't be done without 2-3 fitting mods .. think apoc here.
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Tzar'rim
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Posted - 2009.02.25 19:15:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Omarvelous
Originally by: Tzar'rim
Yes, RR gangs rely on static fights where the enemy WANTS to turn it into a slugging match. Deny them the static scenario and they lose their strength.
How do I deny the static fight, while inflicting kills on them?
Don't attack them when they're in RR position, as someone posted above; grab them as they jump through a gate and are out of RR range from eachother. Be mobile, have an arazu at the gate and wait for them to gang warp into your gang, uncloak and grab 1-3 of them, warp in and pound them before their can gang warp back. Unless you have the dps to simply melt through their RR deny them the chance to use their tactic to the fullest.
They will mostly fit for medium range (T2 long range ammo on short range weapons) so be aware of that.
Self-proclaimed idiot
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Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
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Posted - 2009.02.25 19:21:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Omarvelous
I'm trying to come up with a viable counter.
Drop ECM and Neut bombs on them. Oh wait, you can't use those in lowsec. Thanks CCP!
Taxman VI: Voided Ledger
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Mitch Taylor
Dark-Rising
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Posted - 2009.02.25 20:01:00 -
[13]
Medium Range BS + ECM > Remote repping gangs.
DO NOT TAKE HEAVY SHIPS WITHIN 30KM, ONLY INTYS FOR POINTS ETC
You might not kill them (deaggro/log/dock) but you will certainly not lose anything. Most if not all remote rep gangs are close range fitted, if they are not there tanks are generally pap.
However my favorite thing to do with this type of gubbins is to completely ignore them, they will gank enough noobs in undocks of low sec stations to keep themselves entertained.
The Dark is Rising... |
Omarvelous
Destry's Lounge
Important Internet Spaceship League
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Posted - 2009.02.25 20:21:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Mitch Taylor
Medium Range BS + ECM > Remote repping gangs.
DO NOT TAKE HEAVY SHIPS WITHIN 30KM, ONLY INTYS FOR POINTS ETC
You might not kill them (deaggro/log/dock) but you will certainly not lose anything. Most if not all remote rep gangs are close range fitted, if they are not there tanks are generally pap.
However my favorite thing to do with this type of gubbins is to completely ignore them, they will gank enough noobs in undocks of low sec stations to keep themselves entertained.
Define mid-range. Are we talking 20-40km? I suppose Ravens, rail ships + ewar and HICtor support might be an answer.
Ignoring them defeats the purpose of beating these guys.
As for the other posts - I like the divide and conquer idea.
Helpful thread for sure - I will need to test and tweak out some ideas.
Important Internet Spaceship League Wants You |
Mitch Taylor
Dark-Rising
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Posted - 2009.02.25 21:20:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Omarvelous
Define mid-range. Are we talking 20-40km? I suppose Ravens, rail ships + ewar and HICtor support might be an answer.
Mid range I refer to Apocs/Megas/Tempests the rest wont cut it, full load out of turrets and damage mods, minimal tank if at all (fit for gank), mwd to keep range, shortest range ammo loaded all will have an optimal of around 30-50km - Ensure your pilots do not drift into tackle range of the rr gang (30km).
Why turrets over missiles? Simple in order to beat remote repping you need to overwhelm the buffer. RR bs have high resists + a buffer of around 30k in armour (average) That means you need a high alpha from your side of the gang, 6-7 bs is a good starting point but you will need ecm/damp support to assist.
Victory is based partly on skill and partly on psychology. If they are able to keep their guys in high armour their gang remains calm, if you alpha them into deep armour / structure and their pilots panic you have the victory in the bag.
Don't be afraid to switch primaries during the engagement, unlike large fleet battles in remote repping you need to work those reppers hard. Switching targets can lead to confusion in the gang and it takes time for them to change their reps, especially if you have damps on your team affecting their lock times.
Your ecm support bb/falcons etc need to remain at range, have them cycle across all targets to maximise disruption. Don't let ECCM fittings make you feel ECM is pointless, you still have a chance, slim but if you succeed it adds to the panic.
Your fast moving tacklers need to get in the thick of it and keep them pointed, they need to orbit at high speeds and watch out for light drones which will ruin their day rapidly.
Originally by: Omarvelous
Ignoring them defeats the purpose of beating these guys.
Just remember this, there is a reason people work very hard on remote repping setups for small gangs, it is so they can defeat higher numbers, or engage against the 'normal' odds.
This is important to remember, since most successfull remote rep gangs do well since they are often underestimated. If you must engage them, have numbers on your side and keep out of scramble range, the hostile dps will be effectively nil and you will always have the option to leave if you are having no effect.
Originally by: Omarvelous
As for the other posts - I like the divide and conquer idea.
This will only work if you are dealing with idiots.
The Dark is Rising... |
Nomakai Delateriel
Amarr
Ammatar Free Corps
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Posted - 2009.02.25 21:33:00 -
[16]
If you're fighting 7-10 RR BS there are several options.
1. Neuts. In particular if you can support your neuters with your own logistics (guardian). All you need to do is to neut out 4 of his battleships and he's lost 40% of his repping power AND 40% of his firepower (focus on the Amarrian BSs). Neuts, Remote reps and guns also compete for grid, cap and high-slots.
Remember that you don't neut your primary. He can't use his RRs to rep himself, as such you primarily eliminate his cap by eliminating his ship through firepower.
2. Overwhelm their RR capability. Deploying in such numbers that they don't have time to apply RR. 10 BS of your own should mean about 8000 DPS (or about 15-20 seconds to destroy most types of battleships).
If you switch targets and you're more co-ordinated than they are you can break through before they can rep.
Every enemy ship that is destroyed means that their RR capability is weakened.
3. ECM. Even if they have ECCM you can cut down their repping power significantly by using falcons&blackbirds from 70km+. Combine with firepower and you're set.
What is most important though against RR battleships is that you don't dilute your strategy by including too much "utility ships". Generally you can use utilityships to avoid the enemy from grinding you down while you slowly grind him down. RRs are designed to avoid getting grinded down. |
Dasalt Istgut
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Posted - 2009.02.25 22:47:00 -
[17]
ECM is really what you need (one of the reasons why people who suggest removing ECM are stupid). Don't bother taking them on stations. Try to get them away from jump range of a gate. RR gangs rely on you choosing to engage them, they don't have the capability of forcing a fight. If you force them to move they will often break formation, so stay out of their range and hope they make a stupid mistake or kill their range (its hard to get them under remote rep range but its not hard to get them out of *your* range).
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Nomakai Delateriel
Amarr
Ammatar Free Corps
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Posted - 2009.02.25 23:59:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Nomakai Delateriel on 25/02/2009 23:59:05
Originally by: Dasalt Istgut
ECM is really what you need (one of the reasons why people who suggest removing ECM are stupid).
ECM is a crutch. A very powerful and useful crutch (filled with lead for doubleplusgood delinquent bashing) but still a crutch.
There isn't any situation that can't be solved without ECM (on a 1 of yours for 1 of them basis or better) unless it involves enemy ECM ships.
______________________________________________
-My respect can not be won, only lost. It's given freely and only grudgingly withdrawn. |
Omarvelous
Destry's Lounge
Important Internet Spaceship League
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Posted - 2009.02.26 03:47:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Nomakai Delateriel
Edited by: Nomakai Delateriel on 25/02/2009 23:59:05
Originally by: Dasalt Istgut
ECM is really what you need (one of the reasons why people who suggest removing ECM are stupid).
ECM is a crutch. A very powerful and useful crutch (filled with lead for doubleplusgood delinquent bashing) but still a crutch.
There isn't any situation that can't be solved without ECM (on a 1 of yours for 1 of them basis or better) unless it involves enemy ECM ships.
Well if you consider it a crutch - how do you propose to deal with my situation without using the crutch? Crutch has a negative connotation, so tell me how you'd counter a RR BS gang with similar numbers that may not be able to RR as effectively back.
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Nomakai Delateriel
Amarr
Ammatar Free Corps
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Posted - 2009.02.26 05:39:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Omarvelous
Well if you consider it a crutch - how do you propose to deal with my situation without using the crutch? Crutch has a negative connotation, so tell me how you'd counter a RR BS gang with similar numbers that may not be able to RR as effectively back.
Neutralizers and firepower. As said before. RR/Damage/Neutralizers compete for spots. You can't have all three.
RRing is also hideously expensive in terms of cap.
When you engage. Pick 2-4 Ships that aren't your primary (pick enemies using lasers or blasters/rails. You want to kill their DPS while you're at it). Neutralize them until you've done enough cycles to empty their capacitor. Then leave 1 neut on each and then neut the rest.
There goes most of his firepower as well as his precious RR (that he gave up firepower to get).
I called it a crutch because ECM is most players solution to everything.
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-My respect can not be won, only lost. It's given freely and only grudgingly withdrawn. |
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Tzar'rim
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Posted - 2009.02.26 07:19:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Tzar''rim on 26/02/2009 07:20:45
Well, then killing stuff is a crutch too; "you lowered our dps by killing one of us, hahah you're a tool for using crutches!!!! You wouldn't be able to beat us if you didn't kill anyone!!!!". ECM is not a crutch, it's a tactic just as webbing targets or neutralising them is a tactic.
Self-proclaimed idiot
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Nomakai Delateriel
Amarr
Ammatar Free Corps
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Posted - 2009.02.26 08:22:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Tzar'rim
Edited by: Tzar''rim on 26/02/2009 07:20:45
Well, then killing stuff is a crutch too; "you lowered our dps by killing one of us, hahah you're a tool for using crutches!!!! You wouldn't be able to beat us if you didn't kill anyone!!!!". ECM is not a crutch, it's a tactic just as webbing targets or neutralising them is a tactic.
No. Killing people is the primary objective of most engagements. That's how you tend to win if you don't have a strategic objective (which is, face it, most engagements in EVE).
Lets clarify something here.
1. I use ECM if I got it. It's nice to have.
2. ECM isn't necessary to win unless the opponent has plenty of it. Unless it grows into a fleet action (at least 10 sniper battleships, preferably more) you can't make up for a falcon on a 1 vs 1 basis without a falcon of your own (or possibly a scorpion).
3. Removing ECM wouldn't make any other tactic (like RRing BSs) invincible.
I call it a crutch since a lot of FCs/pilots don't learn more than "target primary" and "moar ECM".
______________________________________________
-My respect can not be won, only lost. It's given freely and only grudgingly withdrawn. |
Tzar'rim
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Posted - 2009.02.26 08:33:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Tzar''rim on 26/02/2009 08:35:46
Well, it's very nice that you came off you high horse to edumucate us peasants about tactics and all, always cool to stroke your epeen. Sadly for you it doesn't really work; the best way to counter an RR gang is to ECM them to single them out, as they rely on targeting eachother.
If you have a better way that doesn't involve ECM, vastly outdamaging their repping due to fleet size or using a similar but better RR setup then we'd sure like to hear it. Feel free to go into detail as how you would do it rather than staying vague going "mere idiots! ECM is for silly people, I do it much bettar!".
Self-proclaimed idiot
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Nomakai Delateriel
Amarr
Ammatar Free Corps
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Posted - 2009.02.26 09:10:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Nomakai Delateriel on 26/02/2009 09:10:22
Originally by: Tzar'rim
Edited by: Tzar''rim on 26/02/2009 08:35:46
Well, it's very nice that you came off you high horse to edumucate us peasants about tactics and all, always cool to stroke your epeen. Sadly for you it doesn't really work; the best way to counter an RR gang is to ECM them to single them out, as they rely on targeting eachother.
If you have a better way that doesn't involve ECM, vastly outdamaging their repping due to fleet size or using a similar but better RR setup then we'd sure like to hear it. Feel free to go into detail as how you would do it rather than staying vague going "mere idiots! ECM is for silly people, I do it much bettar!".
*sigh* As said. Neut battleships. Not necessarily better than having 2-3 falcons/scorpions, but the available pool of falcon pilots is far smaller than the available pool of pilots that can use battleships and heavy neutralizers. It's also available to all 4 races and not just people who trained caldari cruiser/battleship.
That's the very definition of a viable tactic. A setup that will give you a 1 for 1 advantage (or a weight advantage), is readily available and won't cripple your fleet too much if you're up against a non-ideal match.
While RR does depend on targeting it is also heavily dependent on capacitor (much more so than the Plate+Big guns setup). Even a single RR eats up pretty much all the cap a heavy injector can give and more. RR+cap dependent guns is an impossibility when you've been neuted down.
And if you co-ordinate your ships a bit you should be able to neut several ships down in just one cycle. 10 Neut battleships (with 2 neuts each) should take about 25 seconds to neut down 3-4 enemy battleships.
In that time you've probably lost a battleship of your own but by then you have a 2 ship advantage and before you've lost your second battleship you should have destroyed one enemy and neuted down 2 more. After that it's victory for the Neut fleet.
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-My respect can not be won, only lost. It's given freely and only grudgingly withdrawn. |
Tzar'rim
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Posted - 2009.02.26 09:17:00 -
[25]
So your idea is to get MORE BS than they have (!) into neuting range which also means YOU get into scram and their dps range. Since you're relying on localised repping you're not just losing 1 ship as you optimistically call it but quite a few more while (finally after 25 seconds) you managed to neut down 3 of them. At the same time you have fitted for medium range damage as well and hope to out dps their (somewhat neuted) RR.
In short; you bring more numbers. Because if you bring similar numbers you can't neut enough and you will lose DPS at a horrific rate as your BS's tumble over while they keep repping theirs.
Self-proclaimed idiot
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Nomakai Delateriel
Amarr
Ammatar Free Corps
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Posted - 2009.02.26 09:53:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Nomakai Delateriel on 26/02/2009 09:53:14
Originally by: Tzar'rim
Edited by: Tzar''rim on 26/02/2009 09:33:46
So your idea is to get MORE BS than they have (!) into neuting range which also means YOU get into scram and their dps range. Since you're relying on localised repping you're not just losing 1 ship as you optimistically call it but quite a few more while (finally after 25 seconds) you managed to neut down 3 of them, congratulations. At the same time you have fitted for medium range damage as well and hope to out dps their (somewhat neuted) RR, if you'd fit for short range you'll be smacked left and right as they switch to short range ammo and take you from behind.
I'm not relying on localized repping at all and instead plenty of plates. DCII, 2xEANMII, Damage mods and plates. A decent ship should be able to take about 120k damage. Screw LARs.
And I'm relying on bringing about similar numbers of BS.
My scenario was based on 10 Plate+Guns+Neut battleships vs 10 RR battleships.
A 2xRR battleship will pour out about 600-800 dps (less at 24km which is your max engagement range with neuts and Disruptors. Also if they can engage at 24km effectively they're using Pulse battleships which is the worst damage type against a plate-omnitank).
That means that you shouldn't lose your first battleship until after 20 seconds no matter what. Heavy neuts cycle in 24 seconds, so first neuting+2nd cycle and your battleships have neutralized 12000 cap (the full cap of 2 enemy battleships, but you'll spread neuting since they'll drain their own cap through RR and gun use and non-ideal capacitor when beginning the engagement).
After those two cycles (or shortly afterwards) the enemy will only have half their RR power left as well as roughly 60% of their firepower while you'll retain 70% of your neuting power (as one neut is kept on each target) and 90% of your firepower.
And it's not just theory. It has preformed well in actual fights.
______________________________________________
-My respect can not be won, only lost. It's given freely and only grudgingly withdrawn. |
Tzar'rim
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Posted - 2009.02.26 10:07:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Tzar''rim on 26/02/2009 10:10:38
A plated BS with turrets and neuts isn't too dissimilar to a plated BS with turrets and RR, so EHP and dps is quite the same. Ofcourse the double effect of neuts+RR hurts the RR BS more but that doesn't matter too much if it comes to an allout dps match.
Typically RR gangs will have fitted short range weapons (pulse/autocannons/blasters) while having T2 long range ammo in their hold meaning that they can still do damage at 20+ish km. Blasters will ofcourse struggle but make more than up for that when targets actually come in close. So you either fight them at max neuting range where both group's dps is lower so their tanking is even more of an advantage or you get in close and hope to simply overpower their tanking, in which case the whole neuting idea doesn't really matter as your plan is to outDPS their repping.
If your plan is to get in close and let it come to relying on neuting (ie, the fight's going to take a while) then BECAUSE both shiptypes have similar EHP and dps they will have won before you even started.
Winning a fight in EVE is much more about FCing, proper fitting, smart piloting and good teamwork rather than just strategies. So, if you want to discuss a strategy you'll have to rule out differences in FCing, SP etc. I've killed BS's in my Rifter but that doesn't mean I'd advocate Rifters being better than a Mega, it just means that in those fights I outsmarted/outdid the BS pilot.
Self-proclaimed idiot
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Tybalt Usra
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Posted - 2009.02.26 12:00:00 -
[28]
You can run raven in RR gangs, either use 5 siege instead of 6 or use cruise - lower dps at point blank but outside web range your competative with most RR BS setups tbh. Loads of mids for eccm.
You can beat RR by having more dps in plated setups, if your guys are mostly using ravens and such then go shield buffer with torps and just overpower them from ~15km - your guys will need the skills to squeeze out that 1k dps per raven though. Work out how much there RR setups rep for so you can quickly multiply up and see if you can break it with the dps you have avilable, huge volley damage from torp ravens will help with that.
Other option: Falcons, bring curses too for added **** you factor.
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Dasalt Istgut
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Posted - 2009.02.26 13:35:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Nomakai Delateriel
Originally by: Omarvelous
Well if you consider it a crutch - how do you propose to deal with my situation without using the crutch? Crutch has a negative connotation, so tell me how you'd counter a RR BS gang with similar numbers that may not be able to RR as effectively back.
Neutralizers and firepower. As said before. RR/Damage/Neutralizers compete for spots. You can't have all three.
RRing is also hideously expensive in terms of cap.
When you engage. Pick 2-4 Ships that aren't your primary (pick enemies using lasers or blasters/rails. You want to kill their DPS while you're at it). Neutralize them until you've done enough cycles to empty their capacitor. Then leave 1 neut on each and then neut the rest.
There goes most of his firepower as well as his precious RR (that he gave up firepower to get).
I called it a crutch because ECM is most players solution to everything.
ITT we want to get 24km away from remote repping battleships with neuts. ITT we've apparently never heard of cap boosters.
You can go ahead and start neuting RR gangs at close range but unless you're also remote repping you're going to just die.
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Omarvelous
Destry's Lounge
Important Internet Spaceship League
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Posted - 2009.02.26 14:42:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Omarvelous on 26/02/2009 14:43:06
Good discussion guys, try not to flame each other, otherwise I'm hearing some good arguments.
Heavy neuts is actually something I like because I've had my corp prioritize ecm and heavy neuts for ewar because of its effectiveness against nano-gangs back in the day.
Part of our problem with ecm besides the ECCM, has been that the enemy is smart enough to send light fast ships against our falcons - greatly reducing their effectiveness on the battlefield. I'm already dealing with that by requiring our gangs to have anti-anti-support ships (anti-interceptors/AF/nano-ships) fly near the Falcons and protect them.
Heavy neuts and buffer seems pretty ideal to me:
- buffer Raven with torps and dual heavy neuts.
- buffer Tempest with autocannons and heavy neuts.
- Plated Megathron with ions and heavy neut.
- Domi - duh - although its low dps based on drones makes me consider it more of a support ship than a gank - buffer - neut bs.
- Plated geddon with pulse and heavy neut
- I'm toying with the ideal of a neut scorpion with some ECM and a buffer tank.
- Falcon or 2 (depending on gang size)
- Cerb/Sniper Turret ship - anti-tackler ship to minimize the number of times a Falcon is warping off.
I'm thinking webs may not be mandatory for all armor tanking ships - tracking disruptors (enemy uses turret boats exclusively) and perhaps an ecm burst.
In fact while I know an ECM burst would screw up our tackle (might need long range tackler support that tackles beyond burst range) - but a couple bs firing ecm bursts ought to cause enough disruption to give us an edge.
Important Internet Spaceship League Wants You |
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Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
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Posted - 2009.02.26 16:33:00 -
[31]
Have you considered ECM Bursts? Since the targets would be RRing they would all be within range of each other. Downside is ECM Burst is cap hungry, seems to attract friendly drone aggro, and forces you to be within blaster range. And iirc you can only fit one per ship... So you need multiple ECM Bursting ships... Who accidentally ECM each other... So they use FoF cruise missiles to do damage... and... ok it was a crappy idea.
Taxman VI: Voided Ledger
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Atari Sakura
Minmatar
INTERNET HARBLRAGE
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Posted - 2009.02.26 17:59:00 -
[32]
Drop a mom.
---
This forum is problematic.
Desu Sigs
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Tzar'rim
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Posted - 2009.02.26 18:02:00 -
[33]
fit one of the BS for long range (150ish km), he'll do no dps in gang unless targets are at 20+km but he can zap any tacklers going for your falcons or any falcon that didn't use range rigs or had a nice BM to warp to.
Using ECM bursts requires you do be in their group meaning you'll lose the ship. That and burst only removing a lock, it's not a jamming cycle like normal jammers. In other words; sounds good in theory but in reality it's not going to make a huge difference and you'll lose the ECM ship over it.
Self-proclaimed idiot
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Dasalt Istgut
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Posted - 2009.02.27 05:21:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Dasalt Istgut on 27/02/2009 05:23:42
Edited by: Dasalt Istgut on 27/02/2009 05:22:41
Originally by: Omarvelous
In fact while I know an ECM burst would screw up our tackle (might need long range tackler support that tackles beyond burst range) - but a couple bs firing ecm bursts ought to cause enough disruption to give us an edge.
It breaks your locks too - assuming you're in range to fire it.
Basically, your problem is that not remote repping against a remote repping gang means even with just 4 remote reppers running (2 un-capped BS's) you're up against a 1500+ dps tank and you won't be able to break that faster than they can break yours unless they are jammed and therefore not doing any DPS to you in return.
Or out of range.
Remote repping is pure win. With 5 RR ships, I can output (@800 dps each say), 4000 DPS and as long as I can maintain cap I can tank 3000 or so damage per second (8 remote reps). That's while often fielding an ECCM rating of 50+.
If you do not outnumber them you will lose and any tactic you choose here (neuts or otherwise), would work better if you were also remote repping.
Good luck however.
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Draeca
Tharri and Co.
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Posted - 2009.02.27 06:46:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Draeca on 27/02/2009 06:46:57
Also, it's better NOT to fit a huge buffertank with RR, but to fit for high resists and one plate for those falcons that jam the guys who are repping you. Having a huge load of raw HP but low resists makes repping a lot less efficient.
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rubico1337
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Posted - 2009.02.27 11:24:00 -
[36]
way to beat a RR BS gang:
a BS gang with smartbombs and ECM bursts(+ regular ECM if you have extra mids), and tank for the damage type all of your gang members are dishing out
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Coronae Borealis
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Posted - 2009.02.27 11:32:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Coronae Borealis on 27/02/2009 11:38:38
Edited by: Coronae Borealis on 27/02/2009 11:34:01
Originally by: Omarvelous
I have had a couple fights against a corp that does extensive RR BS, and I'm impressed. I've looked at their KB and the few BS they've lost were fit with:
- MWD (I assume to stay close and get to target)
- Cap Injector (keep repping)
- Armor buffer tanked
- ECCM fitted when possible.
- 2x Large remote armor reps - even on ship with only 1 spare utility slot (ie Megathron), a gun was sacrificed to maintain 2x large remote reps (6x Neutron Cannons 2x Large RR).
I'm trying to come up with a viable counter. Part of my problem is a lot of my BS pilots are shield tankers (I myself started out as a shield tanker and have crossed trained armor/Gallente ships) so setting up a RR gang of my own is difficult.
- Can I setup a RR shield rep gang with Ravens? I would love to see any fit available. If shield RR sucks vs armor RR, explain why.
- I believe I should have changed targets when their RR was beating our combined DPS. I assume when RR - you manually lock up your own team's primary and try to rep - so switching targets would buy us 5-6 seconds of damage before they switched to the new primary. Problem is our local tanks were utter crap under focused fire and I can't switch fast enough before I've lost guys.
- Both sides have ECM, no Falcon advantage.
- I'm considering the use of tracking disruptors to lower their damage. Is it worthwhile to experiment with TD when its a BS vs. BS fight?
- I think a RR Domi would be useful - and less obvious than a logistics cruiser. I think a sniper BS in our gang to fire on hostile falcons would be useful in freeing up our ecm to try to break up their RR (which is tough with their eccm).
- What would you bring vs a 7-10 man RR gang?
What are some popular RR BS? I've tried an armor tanking raven and the ship lacks the grid to fit a 1600mm plate, siege II torps, and a pair of large RR. I don't know if I'll be able to get much a RR gang myself considering my guys fly so many mix tanked ships in fleet.
How do you fight competent RR BS pilots? Its a bit of a new area for me, since most of my BS fights have been against localized tanks, and my own gang flies mixed tanks.
FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAIILLLL!!!
1.) Armor buffer tank (3x trimarks, DC2, 2x EAMN T2s, plates/hardeners)
2.) You don't need weapon upgrades
3.) Meds ECCM, Sensorboosting, Point
4.) Highs Weapons, 2x remote armor reppers
5.) NO LOCAL REPPERS, EVER!
And the support ships, tacklers (HICS & Inties)
Also logistic ships and triage carriers are viable choice too.
And use some dominixs just for remote repping and giving remote ECCM/sensor boosting/tracking lins and providing cap 800s if someone needs them.
Best ships for RR BS gang are Apocs, Tempies, Megas and Rokhs. Fit rails/beams/arties. Short and long range ammo.
The tactic of using RR BS gang is difficult and it needs dedicated group of pilots and great FC.
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Coronae Borealis
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Posted - 2009.02.27 11:32:00 -
[38]
Originally by: rubico1337
way to beat a RR BS gang:
a BS gang with smartbombs and ECM bursts(+ regular ECM if you have extra mids), and tank for the damage type all of your gang members are dishing out
That must been a good dream.
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Coronae Borealis
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Posted - 2009.02.27 11:45:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Mitch Taylor
Medium Range BS + ECM > Remote repping gangs.
DO NOT TAKE HEAVY SHIPS WITHIN 30KM, ONLY INTYS FOR POINTS ETC
You might not kill them (deaggro/log/dock) but you will certainly not lose anything. Most if not all remote rep gangs are close range fitted, if they are not there tanks are generally pap.
However my favorite thing to do with this type of gubbins is to completely ignore them, they will gank enough noobs in undocks of low sec stations to keep themselves entertained.
Fitting RR BS gang with short range weapons is epic fail.
Megas with optimal of 3 km? 
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rubico1337
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Posted - 2009.02.27 11:47:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Coronae Borealis
Originally by: rubico1337
way to beat a RR BS gang:
a BS gang with smartbombs and ECM bursts(+ regular ECM if you have extra mids), and tank for the damage type all of your gang members are dishing out
That must been a good dream.
not a dream, an actuality, if they are all clumping together in their RR range they are just asking to get SBed and ECMed
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Coronae Borealis
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Posted - 2009.02.27 11:49:00 -
[41]
Edited by: Coronae Borealis on 27/02/2009 11:51:31
Originally by: rubico1337
Originally by: Coronae Borealis
Originally by: rubico1337
way to beat a RR BS gang:
a BS gang with smartbombs and ECM bursts(+ regular ECM if you have extra mids), and tank for the damage type all of your gang members are dishing out
That must been a good dream.
not a dream, an actuality, if they are all clumping together in their RR range they are just asking to get SBed and ECMed
Sure... Please, fit SBs and ECMs and come to south. It would be a pure pleasure to crush a massive comedy fitted BS gang in seconds.
First check the info of ECM bursts.
Then compare its strenght to BS with 2x ECCMs fitted.
EFT force is very heavy on this one..
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rubico1337
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Posted - 2009.02.27 11:51:00 -
[42]
Edited by: rubico1337 on 27/02/2009 11:52:45
Originally by: Coronae Borealis
Originally by: rubico1337
Originally by: Coronae Borealis
Originally by: rubico1337
way to beat a RR BS gang:
a BS gang with smartbombs and ECM bursts(+ regular ECM if you have extra mids), and tank for the damage type all of your gang members are dishing out
That must been a good dream.
not a dream, an actuality, if they are all clumping together in their RR range they are just asking to get SBed and ECMed
Sure... Please, fit SBs and ECMs and come to south. It would be a pure pleasure to crush a massive comedy fitted BS gang in seconds.
you fail to understand what situation the OP is in, its not all about you and your undersized epeen
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Coronae Borealis
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Posted - 2009.02.27 11:54:00 -
[43]
ECM Burst T2 has a 9.5% chance to jam Megathron fitted with 2x T2 ECCMs.
ECM Burst T2 cycle is 30 seconds.
You can active only one of them at the time.
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Coronae Borealis
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Posted - 2009.02.27 11:58:00 -
[44]
Originally by: rubico1337
you fail to understand what situation the OP is in, its not all about you and your undersized epeen
Way to counter RR BS gang?
Bring a bigger gang and enough Falcons. No other real way. Maybe 5 Titans doomsdaying but that's bout it.
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Draeca
Tharri and Co.
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Posted - 2009.02.27 12:12:00 -
[45]
Edited by: Draeca on 27/02/2009 12:12:36
Edited by: Draeca on 27/02/2009 12:12:26
Originally by: Coronae Borealis
Fitting RR BS gang with short range weapons is epic fail.
Megas with optimal of 3 km?
Oh, I thought RR setups were the best when used with short range setups, the range where people are actually taking and dealing damage. Good luck breaking a short range RR BS gang by the gates and stations with a sniper gang.
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Coronae Borealis
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Posted - 2009.02.27 12:16:00 -
[46]
Edited by: Coronae Borealis on 27/02/2009 12:16:27
Originally by: Draeca
Edited by: Draeca on 27/02/2009 12:12:36
Edited by: Draeca on 27/02/2009 12:12:26
Originally by: Coronae Borealis
Fitting RR BS gang with short range weapons is epic fail.
Megas with optimal of 3 km?
Oh, I thought RR setups were the best when used with short range setups, the range where people are actually taking and dealing damage. Good luck breaking a short range RR BS gang by the gates and stations with a sniper gang.
Good luck trying to have fight in short range RR BS gang with long range RR gang. You sit there, we wreck the havoc on you and you can only leave or take the punch.
Dunno about low sec, but who cares about low sec anyway?
Let me add that the alpha is all that matters. Not your DPS.
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Tzar'rim
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Posted - 2009.02.27 13:29:00 -
[47]
Good luck trying to fight off a short range RR gang with your long range RR gang if they warp on top of you. In other words, it depends on the situation.
Short range RR gives the best defense (possibly coupled with 1-2 sniper RR's to take out ECM boats), short range RR also gives the best chance fighting against normal roaming gangs. Both short and long range have their place and uses, short range has less 'defense gaps' and has the option to jump into a gatecamp. Until (ofcourse) you get much bigger fleets where long range simply punches through RR repping and they only have to rep the sporadic incoming dps as they're outranging their adversaries. But then that's always the case; bring enough numbers and RR stops working.
Self-proclaimed idiot
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Mitch Taylor
Dark-Rising
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Posted - 2009.02.27 14:13:00 -
[48]
Edited by: Mitch Taylor on 27/02/2009 14:14:55
The level of wtf in this thread just went supernova.
The majority of remote repping gangs are short range fitted, in the very extreme they are range turret fitted, very very extreme since it gimps their ability to do the very thing they set out to achieve.
You cannot and never have, been able to buffer tank 30k armour with decent resists and long range / high dps fit a bs. Its one or the other.
EDIT: are you talking about fleet fit bs with one or two remote reps fitted? cos mate that isn't a remote rep gang, and if im honest throws a kipper to the op who is attempting to deal with station huggers.
The Dark is Rising... |
Dasalt Istgut
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Posted - 2009.02.27 16:25:00 -
[49]
Originally by: rubico1337
Originally by: Coronae Borealis
Originally by: rubico1337
way to beat a RR BS gang:
a BS gang with smartbombs and ECM bursts(+ regular ECM if you have extra mids), and tank for the damage type all of your gang members are dishing out
That must been a good dream.
not a dream, an actuality, if they are all clumping together in their RR range they are just asking to get SBed and ECMed
No, this is comedy. Also, half the situations you'll run into your typical RR gang they won't be in a spot where you can engage smartbombs (ie, on the gate at 0, on a station at 0). Even if they could and even discounting the 30 second timer on ECM bursts, you can fire 5 ECM bursts with a scorpion and still only jam 1-2 people. They don't work well on battleships that have ECCM fitted and they don't prevent relocking.
And what the guy was saying about resists vs buffer is 100%. You want a small amount of buffer so you don't get alpha'd and survive long enough for RR gang to cycle to you but you want to max out resists and if possible, have some hardeners in there you can overload if necessary. This is part of why its easier to do armor RR's than shield RR's - the base resists on armor tanks are better than they are on shields. The rokh *could* be a very nice RR ship but since it doesn't get a damage bonus and gives up two turrets the slightly better tanking isn't worth the loss of DPS.
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Coronae Borealis
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Posted - 2009.02.27 22:08:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Mitch Taylor
Edited by: Mitch Taylor on 27/02/2009 14:14:55
The level of wtf in this thread just went supernova.
The majority of remote repping gangs are short range fitted, in the very extreme they are range turret fitted, very very extreme since it gimps their ability to do the very thing they set out to achieve.
You cannot and never have, been able to buffer tank 30k armour with decent resists and long range / high dps fit a bs. Its one or the other.
EDIT: are you talking about fleet fit bs with one or two remote reps fitted? cos mate that isn't a remote rep gang, and if im honest throws a kipper to the op who is attempting to deal with station huggers.
You just made clear why you are stuck in low sec having noobie fw and why you don't have a clue about zero zero warfare.
250 dps to 150 km range with 3x trimarks and 25k buffer with 70+ resists. When enemy gang drops into you you have your drones and webbed targets will be hit even with rails/beams/artillery.
Typical 40 man RR BS gang has that 10 000 dps to 150 km. You can nearly double that dps to short range when you can launch your drones to short range targets.
That means ass load of heavy drones on your smart bomb fitted battleships trying to use your smarties at gate (5km range limit)
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Tzar'rim
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Posted - 2009.02.28 01:11:00 -
[51]
Edited by: Tzar''rim on 28/02/2009 01:11:17
Let me clarify something to you by quoting the OP:
Quote:
- What would you bring vs a 7-10 man RR gang?
He's not talking about bigass fleet stuff as (as I said earlier) numbers will always crush RR. He's asking about small gang engagements so please, keep your fleet tactics out of this.
Self-proclaimed idiot
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Dirk Mortice
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Posted - 2009.02.28 02:40:00 -
[52]
ECM is the way forward to be honest.
Alternatively, good FC'ing and fast reaction times, in combination with good alpha/dps (need to take a buffered BS down in 10-20secs) First, primary somebody, they'll probably get repped up, keep the dps going then lock up 3-4 other hostiles and asap switch to a different target, the aim is to melt the new target before the hostiles can lock it up and get reps on. This requires speed and having all your fleet on the ball ofc.
Another option is to spread your fire somewhat, lock up and spread your dps over 4-5 targets, the idea is to make all of these targets start shouting that they are primary, this causes confusion and spreads the remote reps. Again, at short notice change to a single target to kill it while their reps are spread out.
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loldongs III
loldongs industries
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Posted - 2009.02.28 05:59:00 -
[53]
Edited by: loldongs III on 28/02/2009 06:01:22
Originally by: Omarvelous
I have had a couple fights against a corp that does extensive RR BS, and I'm impressed. I've looked at their KB and the few BS they've lost were fit with:
- MWD (I assume to stay close and get to target)
- Cap Injector (keep repping)
- Armor buffer tanked
- ECCM fitted when possible.
- 2x Large remote armor reps - even on ship with only 1 spare utility slot (ie Megathron), a gun was sacrificed to maintain 2x large remote reps (6x Neutron Cannons 2x Large RR).
I'm trying to come up with a viable counter. Part of my problem is a lot of my BS pilots are shield tankers (I myself started out as a shield tanker and have crossed trained armor/Gallente ships) so setting up a RR gang of my own is difficult.
- Can I setup a RR shield rep gang with Ravens? I would love to see any fit available. If shield RR sucks vs armor RR, explain why.
- I believe I should have changed targets when their RR was beating our combined DPS. I assume when RR - you manually lock up your own team's primary and try to rep - so switching targets would buy us 5-6 seconds of damage before they switched to the new primary. Problem is our local tanks were utter crap under focused fire and I can't switch fast enough before I've lost guys.
- Both sides have ECM, no Falcon advantage.
- I'm considering the use of tracking disruptors to lower their damage. Is it worthwhile to experiment with TD when its a BS vs. BS fight?
- I think a RR Domi would be useful - and less obvious than a logistics cruiser. I think a sniper BS in our gang to fire on hostile falcons would be useful in freeing up our ecm to try to break up their RR (which is tough with their eccm).
- What would you bring vs a 7-10 man RR gang?
What are some popular RR BS? I've tried an armor tanking raven and the ship lacks the grid to fit a 1600mm plate, siege II torps, and a pair of large RR. I don't know if I'll be able to get much a RR gang myself considering my guys fly so many mix tanked ships in fleet.
How do you fight competent RR BS pilots? Its a bit of a new area for me, since most of my BS fights have been against localized tanks, and my own gang flies mixed tanks.
The underlined portions are bad.
You do not remove turrets/missiles to fit more remote reps. You change ships if you need to. Remote shield boosters take far too much cpu to be fit as easily as remote armor repairers (which is why no one really uses them in rr bs gangs).
If you do a raven for rr bs, your best option is to use cruise and some kind of ewar in your mids. Tracking disruptors aren't a bad choice but of course they won't work against drones or missiles.
The easiest things to do versus rr bs are (sort of in order of ease):
a) split them up
b) bring your own rr bs
c) jam them
d) alpha them (volley, and destroy them before their friends can lock and repair)
e) energy neutralizers
The blob mentality is okay I guess if you have the people for it.
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rubico1337
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Posted - 2009.03.01 00:12:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Coronae Borealis
ECM Burst T2 has a 9.5% chance to jam Megathron fitted with 2x T2 ECCMs.
ECM Burst T2 cycle is 30 seconds.
You can active only one of them at the time.
ECM burst is an AOE wepon, if your in a blob its hits everyone(read RR gang)
if you have 8 of em firing off at the same time you can jam multiple targets
+stop setting up the worst case scenario and calling all scenarios fail just based off of the one you made up
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rubico1337
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Posted - 2009.03.01 00:20:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Coronae Borealis
You just made clear why you are stuck in low sec having noobie fw and why you don't have a clue about zero zero warfare.
troll? ok it makes sense now
5/10 for being somewhat believable, there are some people who exist are 0.0 macho idiots like you make yourself out to be
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Draeca
Tharri and Co.
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Posted - 2009.03.01 08:07:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Coronae Borealis
You just made clear why you are stuck in low sec having noobie fw and why you don't have a clue about zero zero warfare.
Why would anyone fly battleships in zero when it is the perfect place for t1 cruiser mayhem!
Only good thing in BSs is their ability to tank sentries, otherwise they're useless and boring.
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Omarvelous
Destry's Lounge
Important Internet Spaceship League
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Posted - 2009.03.02 15:14:00 -
[57]
Edited by: Omarvelous on 02/03/2009 15:14:43
Some good answers here guys. I tried neuts and high dps against an evenly matched RR gang. Every time I overheated my guns we seemed to overpower the RR - however it was a slow process, and I couldn't maintain it without burning out my guns. Sadly - although I clicked on stop overheat - my guns overheated again and burnt out when the target was in structure. It was enough for his gang to rr him while he deagressed and jumped out. I almost lost my plated mega with ions and a heavy neut, however our falcon managed to get me out in structure.
It was a draw with no losses. Had my overheating responded properly (honestly CCP make the overheat button - SMALLER  ) I think we could have broken the primary - I may have also lost my ship doing so.
It was a fun fight even without kills/losses - in hind site I wish I had rotated primaries. The overheating made me feel like we could break the primary - but it would have been more efficient to rotate primaries. More practice will improve results I'm sure.
Aoe weapons are a consideration. A few ecm bursts, and perhaps splitting fire intermittently to confuse the hostiles on who to RR - then focused fire again, might be another tactic to consider.
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Kavu
Genos Occidere
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Posted - 2009.03.03 17:54:00 -
[58]
domi's with neuts and rr's and use drone dps on the primary and neuts on the others?
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