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Missiles vs turrets for pvp

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Major Flaco Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2009.02.26 16:04:00 - [1] Hi I am new to this game and I have gotten quite confused about somthing, as far as I can read most people seems to think missiles is bad in PvP. From some of the points I have gotten is that they have a hard time hitting frigates. My question is, if I wanna do some PvP (both solo and fleet) and I went to train my missile skills and generally used missiles, would I be usefull or would it be better if I used turrets (lasers, hybrids or projectile) ? and would there be targets which I wouldn't be able to kill at all with missiles? In advance, thanks :)
Intigo Amarr Endemic Aggression Exalted.	Posted - 2009.02.26 16:17:00 - [2] Don't listen to the people raving about how bad missiles are, more often than not they do not have a clue. Due to the fact that missiles have an Explosion Radius and Explosion Velocity it can be hard to take down fast, small ships unless you have the support necessary to slow them down or the means to do it yourself (which is why the MWD + scrambler + web Drake is very popular, or Neuts for Battleships such as Ravens). Missiles and turrets are both great in multiple ways, don't let anyone tell you otherwise. The only true disadvantage I can think of is the fact that since missiles have a flight time they are not the most efficient weapon in large sniper fleet engagements (100km+) as they often cannot even reach the primary target in time before it dies to the Rail Megas / Arty Tempests / Beam Geddons. ___________________ A-WAR, much love. <3
E Vile	Posted - 2009.02.26 16:20:00 - [3] Missles are more versitile. More consistant. Guns are more focused to a specific. Higher potential damage, but less consistant. Both can work. Pick the one you enjoy using.
Major Flaco Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2009.02.26 16:28:00 - [4] Originally by: E Vile Missles are more versitile. More consistant. Guns are more focused to a specific. Higher potential damage, but less consistant. Both can work. Pick the one you enjoy using. I assume that you mean higher potential damage is kind of a burst damage type? and sorry if this is a noob question, but do you have any points or arguments to why it is as you say? As I cannot see why there should be a difference in the two types?
Pimpertron	Posted - 2009.02.26 16:39:00 - [5] I will have to say turrets. All the best pvp ships out there are either turret based or turret and drone based. Missiles are great for missions and can be very useful in pvp gangs but if your seious about going out and killing people max your gunnery skills.
Furious Foot	Posted - 2009.02.26 16:59:00 - [6] Turrets are elss consistent as they give you great dps in EFT, but that value is rarely reached unless you fight some BS sized ship at your optimal - most of the time in small gangs, they wont fully exert their damage potential because you won't be at optimal all the time, you only scratch the target due to its transversal velocity, you're prone to tracking disruption etc... Whist missiles are also affected by target velocity, signature radius and other factors, they will apply rather constant damage as long as the target is within range. Both have their advantages, but to make the best se of both worlds - fly Minmatar
Intigo Amarr Endemic Aggression Exalted.	Posted - 2009.02.26 17:12:00 - [7] Originally by: Furious Foot Turrets are elss consistent as they give you great dps in EFT, but that value is rarely reached unless you fight some BS sized ship at your optimal - most of the time in small gangs, they wont fully exert their damage potential because you won't be at optimal all the time, you only scratch the target due to its transversal velocity, you're prone to tracking disruption etc... Whist missiles are also affected by target velocity, signature radius and other factors, they will apply rather constant damage as long as the target is within range. Both have their advantages, but to make the best se of both worlds - fly Minmatar Other than, arguably, Typhoon what missile-based boats does Minmatar have? :o I'd say Amarr is the true 'split' race. Or Caldari if you include Ferox / Incursus / Rokh etc. ___________________ A-WAR, much love. <3
Major Flaco Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2009.02.26 17:26:00 - [8] Originally by: Furious Foot Turrets are elss consistent as they give you great dps in EFT, but that value is rarely reached unless you fight some BS sized ship at your optimal - most of the time in small gangs, they wont fully exert their damage potential because you won't be at optimal all the time, you only scratch the target due to its transversal velocity, you're prone to tracking disruption etc... Whist missiles are also affected by target velocity, signature radius and other factors, they will apply rather constant damage as long as the target is within range. Both have their advantages, but to make the best se of both worlds - fly Minmatar What does EFT mean?
Tactikill Caldari Allied Tactical Unit	Posted - 2009.02.26 17:42:00 - [9] EVE Fitting Tool. Google it and use it. You fit ships with it to see how things work b4 spending ISK in-game. Better yet, EFT and then Singularity to test.
Saaya Illirie Caldari Core Element Blackguard Coalition	Posted - 2009.02.26 17:42:00 - [10] Here are the upsides to each: Missiles - always hit unless enemy warps off, constant source of damage, switchable damage type, low SP requirement to really use effectively, with most of the essential skills having low training time modifiers and few prereqs for T2, long range, capless, unaffected by tracking disruption and cap warfare Turrets - MUCH higher damage potential, more effective in small ship fights as well as gank battleships, damage is instantaneous Downsides: Missiles - damage is based on opponents sig radius + speed, therefore missiles are effective against large, slow targets and less effective against small, fast targets. Missiles require time to reach targets, and can be destroyed by well timed smartbombs (don't fire in volleys), the only useful missiles are cruiser sized and larger, painters and webs are mandatory for torps. Turrets - Turrets in general are much more effective against fast targets, until target reaches a certain speed in relation to the vessel and becomes untrackable (since QR this is less true as MWD are used less during once in range) limited damage types unless using projectile weapons, limited range means you must dictate the range at which you fight, often require capacitor to use, optimal range means effective firing, falloff means you're doing half damage (projectiles see this a lot) Ultimately it's personal preference. The chief advantage to missiles is that unless you're fighting an interceptor almost all your missiles will always hit when in range, the chief advantage to turrets is that if the target is in optimal and and moving slow you will deal maximum damage, regardless of opponents sig radius. Suffer not the insufferable to live.
Zebler British Clan Killers	Posted - 2009.02.26 17:47:00 - [11] If in the long term you wish to engage in fleet fights, then its time to leave your missiles at home. Sorry, but that is how it is. This char has T2 missiles for light, cruise, and torps. I am rarely wanted in fleets, and when I do participate I rarely get my weapons on target. The flight times for missiles are just waaaay to long for them to be useful in large scale warfare. 30 seconds is just too long to wait for damage to be done, your target has died or has warped off before you hit. Even if you fire on secondary (or even tertiary) targets you will not always get any missiles on target during the fight. For smaller scale pvp then missiles can be good, just stick to less than 100km because of flight time. Guns are better for pvp, imo.
Saaya Illirie Caldari Core Element Blackguard Coalition	Posted - 2009.02.26 17:56:00 - [12] Edited by: Saaya Illirie on 26/02/2009 17:57:27 Originally by: Zebler If in the long term you wish to engage in fleet fights, then its time to leave your missiles at home. Sorry, but that is how it is. This char has T2 missiles for light, cruise, and torps. I am rarely wanted in fleets, and when I do participate I rarely get my weapons on target. The flight times for missiles are just waaaay to long for them to be useful in large scale warfare. 30 seconds is just too long to wait for damage to be done, your target has died or has warped off before you hit. Even if you fire on secondary (or even tertiary) targets you will not always get any missiles on target during the fight. For smaller scale pvp then missiles can be good, just stick to less than 100km because of flight time. Guns are better for pvp, imo. The only time I'd disagree with this is blobs and cruise missiles. While it DOES take time for them to get there, when they do they usually bring a lot more pain than t2 range ammo, also most importantly missiles don't care if it's a sniper fight or close range blob, so if you don't know wtf your blob is about to do missiles are a safe bet as they are so versatile with range, if you know you're going to snipe tachyons/arty's/rails are best, if you know you're going close range... whatever the hell you want that does pwn is best lol The only other ship as versatile with range is a pulseapoc, imo. Suffer not the insufferable to live.
Major Flaco Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2009.02.26 18:07:00 - [13] Thank you guys, you just made my choice very easy :D now the problem just is whether to pick lasers or hybrids. (I dislike projectile for their generally low range)
Intigo Amarr Endemic Aggression Exalted.	Posted - 2009.02.26 18:17:00 - [14] Originally by: Major Flaco Thank you guys, you just made my choice very easy :D now the problem just is whether to pick lasers or hybrids. (I dislike projectile for their generally low range) ... 1) Blaster (the close range version of hybrids) have lower range than projectiles due to the falloff bonus projectiles get. 2) What weapons you use are determined by what race ships you fly, unless you just like messing around or in silly cases (Laser Ferox comes to mind). Hybrids = Gallente (and a few Caldari boats) Projectiles = Minmatar (or some Amarr boats that have no laser dmg bonuses) Lasers = Amarr Missiles = Caldari (and a few Amarr boats) ___________________ A-WAR, much love. <3
Major Flaco Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2009.02.26 18:20:00 - [15] Edited by: Major Flaco on 26/02/2009 18:21:09 Originally by: Intigo Originally by: Major Flaco Thank you guys, you just made my choice very easy :D now the problem just is whether to pick lasers or hybrids. (I dislike projectile for their generally low range) ... 1) Blaster (the close range version of hybrids) have lower range than projectiles due to the falloff bonus projectiles get. 2) What weapons you use are determined by what race ships you fly, unless you just like messing around or in silly cases (Laser Ferox comes to mind). Hybrids = Gallente (and a few Caldari boats) Projectiles = Minmatar (or some Amarr boats that have no laser dmg bonuses) Lasers = Amarr Missiles = Caldari (and a few Amarr boats) Well I will train my ships according towards what weapon I prefer, call me crazy but I am a min/maxer :P anyway could you maybe elaborate for me how fall off works? and I was just going for the "optimal range" in the tooltips... hmm how come the optimal range is higher then if the effective range is very low?
Saaya Illirie Caldari Core Element Blackguard Coalition	Posted - 2009.02.26 18:25:00 - [16] Edited by: Saaya Illirie on 26/02/2009 18:26:47 Originally by: Major Flaco Thank you guys, you just made my choice very easy :D now the problem just is whether to pick lasers or hybrids. (I dislike projectile for their generally low range) Depends, personally I'd say lasers. Blasters are ok on ships that have tanks, but usually require you to be suicidally close. Railguns are also pretty decent, but only if fit on a Rokh which is a shield tank, which aren't that great for fleets b/c most RR battleship fleet rely on armor buffer tanks. Suffer not the insufferable to live.
Saaya Illirie Caldari Core Element Blackguard Coalition	Posted - 2009.02.26 18:36:00 - [17] Originally by: Major Flaco Edited by: Major Flaco on 26/02/2009 18:21:09 Originally by: Intigo Originally by: Major Flaco Thank you guys, you just made my choice very easy :D now the problem just is whether to pick lasers or hybrids. (I dislike projectile for their generally low range) ... 1) Blaster (the close range version of hybrids) have lower range than projectiles due to the falloff bonus projectiles get. 2) What weapons you use are determined by what race ships you fly, unless you just like messing around or in silly cases (Laser Ferox comes to mind). Hybrids = Gallente (and a few Caldari boats) Projectiles = Minmatar (or some Amarr boats that have no laser dmg bonuses) Lasers = Amarr Missiles = Caldari (and a few Amarr boats) Well I will train my ships according towards what weapon I prefer, call me crazy but I am a min/maxer :P anyway could you maybe elaborate for me how fall off works? and I was just going for the "optimal range" in the tooltips... hmm how come the optimal range is higher then if the effective range is very low? Falloff means you have less a chance of getting the "well aimed" etc. afaik, I just know that while you still hit you deal less dps over time. Pulse lasers, unlike blasters, allow you to dictate the range you want to fight at. Tachyons have brutal optimals and damage modifiers, and though they are very hard to fit if you do equip them onto Apocalypses they are nasty. The Zealot and Deimos are what you'd be looking at to compare cruisers... the Deimos' nickname is Diemost for a reason, you really gotta be in the enemies face to do damage, the Zealot you can be 20km off and still dealing the pain. To compare the two types of guns, you should also look at the other ships you'd get if you trained for Amarr/Gallente/Caldari to see perks in case you decide you screwed up with your decision. Amarr you get the "cap warfare drone boat best solo-ship ever" Curse and the missile boat Sacrilege, the Gallente you get the droneboat Ishtar (great for Sentry drones) and the Arazu, which I don't know a proper fit for, and the Caldari you get the various missile boats and permajamming Falcon. Suffer not the insufferable to live.
Cupdeez Out of Order Tenth Legion	Posted - 2009.02.26 18:54:00 - [18] Missile boats in Fleet PVP are just about useless (IMO). someone said at ranges of 100km+ well I'm going to say this depends on the size of the fleet. If you take a 50 man BS gang of all turret ships and 1 raven with all his skillz at lvl 5 he will get little to no damage on every target. Most battleships only have about 40-60k hitpoints.. Most good alliance have their ships setup for lots of DPS.. I would say on avg about 600-800 DPS.. 1 sec into the fight 50(BS) x 600(DPS) = 30,000 damage 2 sec into the fight 50(BS) x 600(DPS) = 30,000 damage - 1 battleship down 3 sec into the fight 49(BS) x 600(DPS) = 29,400 damage 4 sec into the fight 49(BS) x 600(DPS) = 29,400 damage - 1 battleship down 5 sec into the fight 48(BS) x 600(DPS) = 28,800 damage 6 sec into the fight 48(BS) x 600(DPS) = 28,800 damage 7 sec into the fight 48(BS) x 600(DPS) = 28,800 damage - 1 battleship down The only way a raven can get his DPS on too a target is to not shoot the primary.. Yes, missile boats start with secondary targets so their missiles hit... This gives that person time to warp out because well only a few people are shooting this target.. Then when the turret boats finally switch over to the secondary target he has already warped out delaying the next primary target. If you look at major fleetbattles between good PVP alliances you will notice something.. Lots of Abadons, Megathrons, Apocs, Tempests, and very very few Raven's... If you don't beleave me look at the -aaa- killboards, BOB killboards, and PL killboards.
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.02.26 19:14:00 - [19] Quote: I assume that you mean higher potential damage is kind of a burst damage type? No..it means that turrets can -technically- get higher DPS than missiles ,but many times wont due to tracking.
Acobar Minmatar	Posted - 2009.02.26 20:06:00 - [20] As it is with virtually every question about EVE - it all depends on your context. For (large) fleet warfare missiles are not so hot, as the target gets popped before they have a chance to reach it. In practice you mostly get one shot before the target evaporates. Instant damage is important. For gang warfare (e.g. roamings), small/medium gangs, missiles are OK. Then it depends more on your ship type and missile type (e.g. HAM vs. HM). To have the the most fun train both gunnery and missile skills.
Mohenna	Posted - 2009.02.26 23:16:00 - [21] Missiles have pros and cons. I believe that they're ok, although you have to use middle slots as damage amplifier. There is however a big problem with rockets, because they suffer from an incredibly reduced explosion speed - less then heavy missiles More info here - plz support: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1005679
Lilith Velkor Minmatar DEATH'S LEGION Red Box.	Posted - 2009.02.27 01:59:00 - [22] Edited by: Lilith Velkor on 27/02/2009 02:00:46 With minmatar ships, once your missile skills are decent you'll love your missile hardpoints as they enable you to do damage where your ACs are out of range, while you are running from something and dont bother to try and get good hits with guns. They also enable you to truly select your damage type, in contrast to projectiles where you are nailed to the t2 ammo if you want to select damage type (and having one option isnt really selecting something either). Still, they are more like an addition to your autocannons, your primary weapon system, but they bring their unique abilities which makes them nice to have in contrast to non-split weapons.
V05	Posted - 2009.02.27 04:05:00 - [23] Originally by: Major Flaco What does EFT mean? If you've already downloaded EFT and used it, here's a tip to further your education. Take a ship, any ship, and Attach a weapon hardpoint (Missile launcher or Laser) for example Amarr Zealot vs Sacrilege. They are Heavy Assualt Cruisers (Tech 2). When you have them in EFT, right click the Missile launcher or Laser, "Change Affecting Skill," and look at all the skills you need to train before you fully maximize your damage output. ^^ Also, consider the ship you want to pilot ^^. I like using Zealot VS Sacrilege. -Zealot = Laser with high DPS, med to low Armor tanking. -Sacrilege = Missiles with high DPS, high Armor tanking, but LONGER SKILLING in order to match the Zealots DPS.
UMEE	Posted - 2009.02.27 04:06:00 - [24] Originally by: Cupdeez Missile boats in Fleet PVP are just about useless (IMO). someone said at ranges of 100km+ well I'm going to say this depends on the size of the fleet. If you take a 50 man BS gang of all turret ships and 1 raven with all his skillz at lvl 5 he will get little to no damage on every target. Most battleships only have about 40-60k hitpoints.. Most good alliance have their ships setup for lots of DPS.. I would say on avg about 600-800 DPS.. 1 sec into the fight 50(BS) x 600(DPS) = 30,000 damage 2 sec into the fight 50(BS) x 600(DPS) = 30,000 damage - 1 battleship down 3 sec into the fight 49(BS) x 600(DPS) = 29,400 damage 4 sec into the fight 49(BS) x 600(DPS) = 29,400 damage - 1 battleship down 5 sec into the fight 48(BS) x 600(DPS) = 28,800 damage 6 sec into the fight 48(BS) x 600(DPS) = 28,800 damage 7 sec into the fight 48(BS) x 600(DPS) = 28,800 damage - 1 battleship down The only way a raven can get his DPS on too a target is to not shoot the primary.. Yes, missile boats start with secondary targets so their missiles hit... This gives that person time to warp out because well only a few people are shooting this target.. Then when the turret boats finally switch over to the secondary target he has already warped out delaying the next primary target. If you look at major fleetbattles between good PVP alliances you will notice something.. Lots of Abadons, Megathrons, Apocs, Tempests, and very very few Raven's... If you don't beleave me look at the -aaa- killboards, BOB killboards, and PL killboards. this is a very good analysis for you. i guess it comes down to what you want to do. turrets are good for almost all situations. missiles are good for PVE and small gang warfare. so take your pick =)
Dasalt Istgut	Posted - 2009.02.27 04:59:00 - [25] A turret can hit a frigate that isn't moving for 100%+ damage (+ because of wrecking hits, ie, some randomness in the damage). A big missile will almost never hit a small target for 100% damage. At the same time missiles never miss unless you're going faster than the missile can go whereas turrets use tracking so you can completely miss shots. Generally speaking, in the normal engagement I prefer turrets as usually the primary is webbed/scrammed/tackled and you will hit him very hard if he is at your optimal range with turrets whereas missiles still get damage reduction due to signature radius differences.
Ryoken McKeon Galactic Defence Syndicate Eradication Alliance	Posted - 2009.02.27 05:08:00 - [26] Missiles are generally a more jack-of-all-trades kind of weapon, which can cause some rather nasty performance issues when compared to turrets, but in general missiles are fine. My drake, my cerb, my crow, and my torp raven all do fine.

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