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KnowUsByTheDead
The Flying Nightmares
44
   |
Posted - 2012.04.25 20:33:00 -
[1] - Quote
I have seen a lot of people complain about this, in chats, on FB, etc. Is it just not possible to do this, or is CCP just being dense when it comes to listening to the player base? |
AFK Hauler
State War Academy
Caldari State
44
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 20:35:00 -
[2] - Quote
KnowUsByTheDead wrote:I have seen a lot of people complain about this, in chats, on FB, etc. Is it just not possible to do this, or is CCP just being dense when it comes to listening to the player base?
I still don't see the "Dislike" button... CCP must fix it now! |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6283
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 20:46:00 -
[3] - Quote
KnowUsByTheDead wrote:I have seen a lot of people complain about this, in chats, on FB, etc. Is it just not possible to do this, or is CCP just being dense when it comes to listening to the player base? It's possible GÇö it's just very very mean to the database the way it works right now.
Basically, think of what the client does when you just rclick-sell a single item: it fetches the market value for that item, figures out (or at least tries to) which is the best price you can get from your location, and then calculates how awful that deal isGǪ All of this takes a noticeable (but not necessarily frustrating, depending on where you are) amount of time due to all the DB calls that have to be made.
Now think of how this process plays when you do it for 50 items GÇö all that clicking and waiting for market data quickly adds up, and you can imagine the amount of DB lookups behind it all, but at least they're spaced out a bit so the server shouldn't be swearing too much.
GǪnow imagine what would happen if you asked it to do all those checks at once. The amount of DB calls to get all the data and calculate all the values and relative order values; all the extra calls needed to check that all items can actually be sold (otherwise it wouldn't be a very useful GÇ£sell allGÇ¥ button, now would it?); and how many pots of tea you could brew in the time it took for the UI to start responding. Also, try to think how this will be presented to cover such eventualities as having to fill multiple sell orders at differing prices for many of the piles of stuff you're trying to sell GÇö how will this information be conveyed in an understandable manner?
It's not as easy as one might imagine due to how the market works and due to how we interact with it. It's probably not impossible, as such, but it would require some pretty severe fiddling with both the back-end and the front end of the market mechanics to make it all work without having both the client and the server blow up.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Roll Sizzle Beef
Space Mutiny
273
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 20:48:00 -
[4] - Quote
I would love a sell all button. Then I can pick up the vast majority of your crap for 1isk when I'm the only close buyer. |
TWHC Assistant
3
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Posted - 2012.04.25 21:03:00 -
[5] - Quote
There is no real need for a "sell all" button. You can reprocess most items and sell their minerals. Or you can auction it all off with a single contract. This is probably why CCP does not see it as a high priority feature in need of implementation.
Technically it is very much possible, but it is not a small thing to do. Just think of all the transactions it needs to make and having to handle the conditions that can occur like not finding a buy order for an item or a buy order filling up and disappearing.
And do not forget that it is still just a game and the point of a game is to let you do something, not to let the game do everything for you. |
KnowUsByTheDead
The Flying Nightmares
45
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 00:08:00 -
[6] - Quote
Thanks for the input (especially you Tippia), was something I had always wondered and never had the answer to. Thanks guys |
Just Alter
Enlightened Industries
Test Alliance Please Ignore
35
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 00:32:00 -
[7] - Quote
I'm also of the opinion that a sell all button would be really useful.
As for the db call: just give it a loading bar like the undock one.
I'd also think that it could actually be less stressful for the servers.
Just think in jita, how many people click sell at the same time?
With this feature many of that clicks would be handled by an algorithm.
However ccp has definitely more important things to do than this. |
KnowUsByTheDead
The Flying Nightmares
45
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 00:36:00 -
[8] - Quote
Just Alter wrote:I'm also of the opinion that a sell all button would be really useful.
As for the db call: just give it a loading bar like the undock one.
I'd also think that it could actually be less stressful for the servers.
Just think in jita, how many people click sell at the same time?
With this feature many of that clicks would be handled by an algorithm.
However ccp has definitely more important things to do than this.
It isn't really an issue for me personally, just one I see come up often and am quite curious why it hasn't been addressed or iterated on. But yea definitely agree that CCP has bigger fish to fry lol |
Ai Shun
747
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 00:42:00 -
[9] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Now think of how this process plays when you do it for 50 items GÇö all that clicking and waiting for market data quickly adds up, and you can imagine the amount of DB lookups behind it all, but at least they're spaced out a bit so the server shouldn't be swearing too much.
I would be very, very surprised if CCP was issuing multiple calls to the database when it could be wrapped in one. If you're looking at optimal what would you have:
Option 1 - Individual requests for each bit of information
(Request 1 to Server) - (DB call) - (Response 1 to client)
(Request 1.1 to Server) - (DB call) - (Response 1.1to client)
...
(Request 1.5 to Server) - (DB call) - (Response 1.5 to server)
(Market Window displays)
or
Option 2 - Single request for all information
(Request 1 to Server) - (DB call in elegant T-SQL) - (Response 1 to Client)
(Market Window displays)
Granted, the larger the volume of data transferred the longer the response will be - but if CCP is making multiple calls to the database to generate the market information for one sell order they are doing something wrong. With proper indexes, etc. that data should be very accessible to a single statement.
This is of course based on the presumption that, as their dev blogs on hardware and their data dumps show, they are actually using a SQL back-end. If it is a homebaked solution then all bets are off.
Edit: Now that covers the request for data. You still need to submit the sell orders and any that fail (Order filled etc.) will need to come back again. But those can be wrapped in a single response as well and properly handled on the client end in whichever way the client wants.
I just can't buy the DB as being the limiting factor in this. It's not sensible.
EVE Ambulation and Avatars as a separate game - see here |
Just Alter
Enlightened Industries
Test Alliance Please Ignore
35
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 00:49:00 -
[10] - Quote
Ai Shun wrote:Tippia wrote:Now think of how this process plays when you do it for 50 items GÇö all that clicking and waiting for market data quickly adds up, and you can imagine the amount of DB lookups behind it all, but at least they're spaced out a bit so the server shouldn't be swearing too much. I would be very, very surprised if CCP was issuing multiple calls to the database when it could be wrapped in one. If you're looking at optimal what would you have: Option 1 - Individual requests for each bit of information(Request 1 to Server) - (DB call) - (Response 1 to client) (Request 1.1 to Server) - (DB call) - (Response 1.1to client) ... (Request 1.5 to Server) - (DB call) - (Response 1.5 to server) (Market Window displays) or Option 2 - Single request for all information(Request 1 to Server) - (DB call in elegant T-SQL) - (Response 1 to Client) (Market Window displays) Granted, the larger the volume of data transferred the longer the response will be - but if CCP is making multiple calls to the database to generate the market information for one sell order they are doing something wrong. With proper indexes, etc. that data should be very accessible to a single statement. This is of course based on the presumption that, as their dev blogs on hardware and their data dumps show, they are actually using a SQL back-end. If it is a homebaked solution then all bets are off. Edit: Now that covers the request for data. You still need to submit the sell orders and any that fail (Order filled etc.) will need to come back again. But those can be wrapped in a single response as well and properly handled on the client end in whichever way the client wants. I just can't buy the DB as being the limiting factor in this. It's not sensible.
What i was wanting to say more or less.
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ELECTR0FREAK
5
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 01:23:00 -
[11] - Quote
I can forsee a sudden increase in the number of petitions if a Sell All button was implemented.
"I can just sell all this, it's junk... ca-ching, 15 million ISK richer!
... wait a sec... why aren't my Officer fits in their can?! Did I just... !!!"
[F12!!!]
So in short, CCP should go for it, just give me time to put up a whole lot of Buy Orders first! |
MadMuppet
Kerguelen Station
280
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 01:43:00 -
[12] - Quote
How about a 'sell this item for whatever I have selected whatever I can get for it' hot-key-able command?
Then again, I just finished training scrapmetal processing so I really don't care.
I don't always finish my commentary, but when I do |
Thor Kerrigan
Guardians of Asceticism
54
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 01:52:00 -
[13] - Quote
Right-click, select all, reprocess.
Even the faction mods.
Even the dead-space mods.
EVEN. THE. OFFICER. MODS.
...
Profit from selling them all.
If it really is too much of a hassle, I will gladly act as a third party, for a small fee, of course  |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6289
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 02:07:00 -
[14] - Quote
Ai Shun wrote:I would be very, very surprised if CCP was issuing multiple calls to the database when it could be wrapped in one.
[GǪ]
This is of course based on the presumption that, as their dev blogs on hardware and their data dumps show, they are actually using a SQL back-end. If it is a homebaked solution then all bets are off.
[GǪ]
I just can't buy the DB as being the limiting factor in this. It's not sensible. It's MSSQL last time I heard. Anyway, yes, I'm sure a lot of it is folded up into one request, but I also think that there are things that are being handled inefficientlyGǪ somehowGǪ somewhere.
Granted, I can't tell from my position whether it's really in the DB calls/responses or if it's in the client trying to collate and filter that information for display in the trade window, but just sit down for a while and compare the response time you get from just doing a GÇ£show market detailsGÇ¥ on an item and trying to sell it GÇö I consistently feel that the latter is slower. It could just be a matter of the sell window having a few built-in filters that just makes the DB call slower, or the same filters meaning the client has to discard more junk data that comes back, but there is a difference.
And likewise, yes, you could probably optimise things if you did a mass-sell, asking for more than one cluster of item data at once, but once again, just looking at the difference you see from loading an GÇ£item classGÇ¥ list in the trade window and trying to actually get useful sell info on those items, and it's a significant difference.
Either way, without some pretty significant optimisations in how data is retrieved and/or managed on both ends, I foresee a trade-all function as scaling horribly as the number of items increase. There are undeniably some inefficiencies there (just look at the fanfest presentation where they discussed improving client-side lag, where the trade window showed huge room for improvement, some of which had already been made), and this kind of mass-negotiation of suitable data will probably activate all of them at once.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Burseg Sardaukar
Sardaukar Merc Guild
General Tso's Alliance
117
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 02:56:00 -
[15] - Quote
A sell-all button would be a great "little thing" I'd like to see implemented. Even if I was forced to set a "cannot be lower than X regional average" I'd be fine.
We have a blog, it is terrible.
How to fix Bounty Hunting |
Ai Shun
759
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Posted - 2012.04.26 04:09:00 -
[16] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Either way, without some pretty significant optimisations in how data is retrieved and/or managed on both ends, I foresee a trade-all function as scaling horribly as the number of items increase.
I agree with that. I'd be happy with a way to batch multiple orders into one view and submitting them. Even if it takes a while.
EVE Ambulation and Avatars as a separate game - see here |
Marcus Ichiro
Kif Korp
10
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 04:10:00 -
[17] - Quote
A sell all button would absolutely destroy the servers.
If you want to sell all your items in a station just pick out the valuable ones and reprocess the rest. |
Ai Shun
759
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 04:32:00 -
[18] - Quote
Marcus Ichiro wrote:A sell all button would absolutely destroy the servers.
It depends on how it is handled. Take, for example, a solution like this:
(a) Select items for sale as per the Reprocessing view with an upper maximum for the batch.
(b) Fetch market data for those items; which runs a query against the back-end server to update details for the items. This should be possible in a single query.
(c) Show a UI where the user can see the list of items against market average, max, min prices, etc. Not the full detail, just the useful bits.
(d) User configures the price for each item.
(e) Client begins sending sell orders for each item in the list, with a minimal delay between items (OR batches and sends it all in one with an async update as they are processed)
This should see slightly better performance than a right click-sell, ok, right-click-sell, ok, right-click sell, ok scenario.
Look at it. If you have a numeric data type with precision between 29 and 38. That consumes 13 bytes. How many numerics would you need? Item ID + Quantity + Regional Average + Min + Max. What else? You wouldn't give full market details - just an overview. Let's call it 256 bytes per item, which seems like hopelessly too much data. (I'd expect more like 64 - 128 bytes)
At 256 bytes per item you're looking at network traffic of 12800 bytes per 50 items. 200 items is 51200 bytes. 400 ... you can do the math.
At 128 bytes per item you are looking at 6400 bytes per 50, 25600 per 200 and 51200 per 400.
Add in a bit of overhead for the packet command structure, but it is still a very small volume of data. Now combine this ...
Yeah okay. I'm ranting a bit.
TL;DR It is slow currently; it should not be slow and it should be possible to do with the underlying technologies.
EVE Ambulation and Avatars as a separate game - see here |
TWHC Assistant
10
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 05:35:00 -
[19] - Quote
Ai Shun wrote:TL;DR It is slow currently; it should not be slow and it should be possible to do with the underlying technologies.
I completely agree with you. I believe that a "sell all"-feature is not only very much possible to do, but it certainly should get implemented so that it reduces the load on the servers and to be more than just a "sell all"-feature. People do sell everything currently and they do cause transactions for every item. A "sell all"-feature cannot be slower than how it already is done by the player unless one is stupid at programming.
One optimization I can already think of is to query the available buy orders for a list of items in one single request. The request should contain a min. & max. average derivation for all items, too. The server then returns only those buy orders that can be filled at the time of the request and which fall within the min. & max. thresholds. The client then tries to sell each item (or item stack) one by one as before. What cannot be sold stays in the hangar just as before.
Another optimization the client could make is to try to sell two items simultaneously in a single request. If it fails then it will have to fail for both items, but the amount of time it saves will be significant while the failure chance of such a double-sell request will not be much higher than compared to a single-sell request. With a bit of added logic on the client side could the client switch back to single-sell requests in cases where the failure rate increases (i.e. at Jita peak time) and switch to double- or even quad-sell requests when the failure rate is low (i.e. off peak times and away from market hubs).
Just two optimizations and there may be more in there, which will be worth exploring. |
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Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises
Otherworld Empire
3265
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 07:52:00 -
[20] - Quote
Account hackers would love that option I think, instant clean out - although maybe they do already just reprocess everything I dunno.
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Wukulo
Senex Legio
Get Off My Lawn
53
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 07:54:00 -
[21] - Quote
KnowUsByTheDead wrote:I have seen a lot of people complain about this, in chats, on FB, etc. Is it just not possible to do this, or is CCP just being dense when it comes to listening to the player base?
As a trader I fully support anything that will enable you to sell me goods with little or no thought.
Posted on main because I'm not a coward like the rest of you. |
TWHC Assistant
15
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 08:42:00 -
[22] - Quote
Chribba wrote:Account hackers would love that option I think, instant clean out - although maybe they do already just reprocess everything I dunno.
Account hackers would need to get it to Jita first, too. You will not be able to sell all in the middle of no where and processing it could actually be more successful if you wanted to sell all quickly without moving it first, because you have mineral buy orders practically everywhere. |
Eebi
CONCORD Operations
Central Directorate of Intelligence
24
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 09:02:00 -
[23] - Quote
I'd like a buy fit button.
Able to auto sort lowest price on items available in station.
Then get prices per item, subtotals for several of the same items and total price. |
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