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Droo
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Posted - 2003.06.19 16:32:00 -
[1]
Quote:
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Safer bids
Many of the market scams we have seen rely on the fact that someone that is making a bid doesn't need to have the funds to back it up. We used to have a large penalty for anyone caught doing that, but players complained about this. Now what I would like to see is to have the money actually put in a special frozen account while the bid is active. This would be symmetrical to the asks, where the stuff offered is also taken away from the seller's custody while the order is active. I realize that this limits the possibilities for risk taking that some traders might do (basically trading on margin), but overall I think most people do have the funds necessary when putting out orders.
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I think this is a really BAD idea. FOr people buying and selling with great liquidity to their wallet this will kill them. Even someone whose money doesn't change much would like to have orders for several different items on the market - and can just cancel those he doesn't need once he gets 1 of those orders matched.
Any plan like this that locks away your money is a BAD IDEA.
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Naran Darkmood
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Posted - 2003.06.19 17:15:00 -
[2]
This idea is pretty bad - introduce the heavy penalty with a warning that you can switch on/off. As soon as you place orders in more than one constellation, but not in the whole/same region, you would freeze most of your money.
If a corp or person wants to buy large quantities of minerals in a not to large area (to constellation), there is no other way than to place to orders. If they want the items fast, they place in each constellation more than half of the amount and cancel orders as soon as they got what they need. This is much harder to do with your money frozen as you need much more money.
So plz, go back to the heavy fine...
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Nekayah
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Posted - 2003.06.19 17:41:00 -
[3]
I disagree entirely. I am a serious trader and I think this is long overdue. Considering the distances that come into play, orders need to be made seriously. The current system results in many 'false' buy order that makes it look as if there is much greater demand than actually exists.
What it will not stop, however, is the glut of 1 isk orders that are so annoying. At least those won't be for 1,000,000,000 units each now.
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Max McKoy
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Posted - 2003.06.19 17:58:00 -
[4]
While I agree SOMETHING needs to be done, I don't agree with this solution.
I like to float several orders at a time becuase I KNOW that certain orders will take time to fill while others will be filled quickly. But I always meet my demand with rapid turnaround.
This solution will devestate the economy worse than the scammers are. It will be too limited and static . We need to keep the dynamic market approach to keep the economy epxanding.
Obviously my reply is not worth much as I do not have a solution at this time, but I do disagree with the solution proposed.
Max
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Bashar
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Posted - 2003.06.20 04:58:00 -
[5]
This would ttoally screw me up too, I place large buy orders all the time becuase I genrally have at least 50 orders....if i had to make them all 1-5 units instad of my default 1000 units i would have to sift through all my buy orders and figure out what ones are cancneled an recreate them every day. right now I only have to create them once per week when they expire. Not having the cash for the buy orders is never a problem becuase the actual sale of these items is sooo slow that I always have plenty of time to react by liquidating some assets. Generally I buy and sell about 1 mill isk of stuff a night. mostly 1000-3000 isk items and some low end ore buys for 14-33 isk.
The best solution I can think of that would not make the market useless for me and others like me, would be to just put on a warning just like the sell warning. "You maybe be getting scammed!you are about to place a buy order for 15000 isk per unit on frozen plant seeds. This above the average price 150 isk for plant seeds" Anyone who still dold having seen this message was clearly willing to take the risk that its a real buy/sell order
regards,
Bashar Miles Teg
Shop Smart, Shop BasharMart! |
Qandor
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Posted - 2003.06.20 12:11:00 -
[6]
The insanely large buy orders do get to be a bit ridiculous but they are more due to the way the market logic works than anything else. As it stands now, if two bids are placed at an identical price, the person with the larger buy quantity gets the business assuming both orders are set to the same range, ie region or constellation, etc. This forces players into quantity bidding wars that get ridiculous after awhile. There needs to be a fundamental change to the market logic where identical price bids somehow share the market or earlier bids get preference.
While I am at it, why do we have choices of 2 weeks, a month, and 3 months when buying and selling, when selecting any of them still results in the bid expiring in one week?
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DREAMWORKS
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Posted - 2003.06.20 12:25:00 -
[7]
Maybe they should make it so you cant transfer the money needed, unless you transfer it by buy and sell orders... People now creating false buy and sell orders really messes up the economy and i hope they will be hunted down and taken from them everything they own, it should be harder than just give the money to another character on the same or other account.
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Golda
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Posted - 2003.06.20 21:04:00 -
[8]
Isn't the problem not the money, but information? Solve the information problem by permitting global buy orders. This would allow the seller to ask only for the amount they really wanted to buy. Or if fulfillment distance was a concern, allow the order to be "broadcast" so many au away allowing it to be seen across regions, if desired. Perhaps the EVE broadcasting service would charge a fee to relay this information based on the au distance, so everyone is not spammed with global buy orders.
Another idea is to allow sellers to officially commit to fulfill the buy order before purchasing or delivering the goods. This would even the playing field between buyers and sellers a bit as the sellers are taking more risk than buyers under the current system.
Edited by: Golda on 20/06/2003 21:06:02
Golda
HR Director
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cane
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Posted - 2003.06.20 21:49:00 -
[9]
I also agree something should be done about the false buy order problem and the exploit of placing large orders to get first spot placement.
Rather than cap isk or penalties to regulate buying on margin -- Why not make it a trading skill? Perhaps you train a 'margin trading' skill level that enables you to trade at a multiplier of your wallet (i.e., margin skill lvl3 adds 3x bonus to your wallet margin). Beginners trade 1:1 with added skill lvl you could trade as high as 5:1 over your wallet total.
Just a thought...
-cane
Edited by: cane on 20/06/2003 21:50:48 |
Xzragath
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Posted - 2003.06.20 22:26:00 -
[10]
I guess I just don't understand part of the market. You can place a buy order for things that you cannot pay for? That makes no sense to me. So if I fill one of these buy orders even though you do not have the cash to pay for it do I still get paid?
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MOOstradamus
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Posted - 2003.06.21 00:52:00 -
[11]
CANE: nice idea. 
MOOrovingian  "Following & supporting EVE (since Jan 2001) is like wiping your arse with sandpaper."
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Qandor
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Posted - 2003.06.21 11:40:00 -
[12]
"I guess I just don't understand part of the market. You can place a buy order for things that you cannot pay for? That makes no sense to me. So if I fill one of these buy orders even though you do not have the cash to pay for it do I still get paid?"
You cannot place a single buy order greater in value than your current funds. You can, however, place multiple orders which exceed your curent funding. To the best of my knowledge the seller is not at risk. They will only sell what the buyer can pay for. The buyers order will be cut off once his funding runs out.
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Qandor
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Posted - 2003.06.21 12:05:00 -
[13]
"Rather than cap isk or penalties to regulate buying on margin -- Why not make it a trading skill? Perhaps you train a 'margin trading' skill level that enables you to trade at a multiplier of your wallet (i.e., margin skill lvl3 adds 3x bonus to your wallet margin). Beginners trade 1:1 with added skill lvl you could trade as high as 5:1 over your wallet total."
An interesting proposal to be sure but it doesn't solve the basic problem with the market logic. That is where the problem lies.
Folks would place reasonable buy orders if quantity did not provide them with preferential consideration which is exactly what the current logic dictates. In my opinion, it needs to be handled more like an auction. At an auction, if someone bids $100 for an item another buyer can't jump up and say "I bid $100 also". However, that is exactly what occurs in the EVE marketplace. I've offered 56 isk for an item only to have another buyer post a 56 isk bid on top of mine with a larger quantity thus giving him the sales. When I then bid 57 isk, the same buyer would again bid 57 isk with once again a larger quantity. That stuff has to be stopped somehow. It is just a waste of everyone's time as the way it stands now and it is far from a real marketplace. It is just a numbers game as it currently stands.
Either a way is going to have to be found for identical bids to share the market or some method of preference, other than quantity has to be the determining factor.
One solution might be to disallow identical bids and institute fractional pricing in say, 1/4 increments. If someone has a bid of 56 isk at a station a second buyer cannot place a bid of 56 isk also but must instead bid at least 56.25 isk, etc. Solve the market logic problem and these wildly inflated buy quantities will disappear. There will be no need then to cap funding.
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Fester Addams
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Posted - 2003.06.21 12:07:00 -
[14]
So people dont want cash to be taken away when a buy order is placed, well then have the marked to a check and not show any buy orders that cannon be filled at the moment.
Lets say of example that I want a mammoth but want to try get a good price, I subsiquently place buy orders in 3 or 4 regions in order to maximize the chance of visibility and in those regions I place the orders in strategic places so as not to make it too much of a bother to go to the sale for the seller.
The total worth of my buy orders might be in the range of 30M but only wanting 1 I might not have enough cash to fill all.
As I dont want to idly wait possibly in vain for the purchase I head out to trade... naturaly in this example I find a good opportunity and invest my money into goods dropping my net account well below my buy orders value.
Again fate being cruel decides player x has a mamoth to sell and would consider my offer fair is willing to sell at that price but as I am unable to put the cash on the table my order is momentarily suspended not to be shown again untill my wallet can cash the purchase.
Sure it would take a bit longer loading time but honestly I dont get why the loading of the market takes so long, at each step of loading the computer is doing what it is best at (checking up lists) and the amount of information collected is minute...
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Blinder
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Posted - 2003.06.21 21:27:00 -
[15]
Well, as far as having to have the cash on hand to fill orders...
I think I prefer the suggestion to only show those orders which can currently be paid for. That way people can get an idea of both the current availability of a market for their goods, and still have the ability to see what people are looking for long-term. This could best be coupled with the ability to see who controls the offer you are looking at, so you can contact them to arrange fulfillment of bulk orders (so, if they can't pay now, you find out when they CAN pay and then settle the offer through a trade. This would be for things like large (though not fradulent) mineral orders.
As for making the buy/sell orders more sensible as to who gets the business, perhaps it would make the most sense to evenly divide business between all equal-priced orders at the closest station able to fill the order (or, stations, if no one station is able to provide all of the required product)? This way the buyer gets all of their product in as small an area as possible, while sellers get a more even shot at business.
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Tealnyue
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Posted - 2003.06.22 14:57:00 -
[16]
The way the market is set up now is really screwed up. Why not just try this outs? Instead of nameless buy orders being based on Quantity, and price in that order. Why not set it up something similar to Courier missions.
If a PC places a buy order, the cash is taken out. Then his Name, Location, Quantity, and Price for the item will be posted. This could be empire wide, or across the know universe. Traders then would load up their items and ship off to that station. Once there they can fill the order. By only able to fill orders this way would stop folks from accepting and order, and then taking their sweet time filling. First come first severed.
NPC buy orders would just be listed with no name, just the station/system, along with pricing.
The whole idea behind this is sellers can find buyers that are closer, and it would be harder to scam folks.
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