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If anyone still thinks T2 BPO ownership is "unfair"...

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Khrillian Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2009.03.05 18:05:00 - [1] Edited by: Khrillian on 05/03/2009 18:05:22 ...you're totally wrong. This argument came up a lot more before invention, and I would argue that it was fair then, but that's a side point - invention is here to stay. Despite this once in awhile on S&I or elsewhere someone claims that T2 BPOs are "unfair." Why not settle the debate? Someone having a T2 BPO is no more unfair than someone having a large wallet total or lots of assets. NPC sold BPOs are basically sold at a fixed price, and people purchase them until the return on the asset converges to whatever EVE's "risk free" rate of interest is, plus maybe some hassle factor. With T2 BPOs, they exist in fixed quantity, so prices should rise until the return on the asset converges to (guess what?) approximately the same rate of return. Thus T2 BPO ownership gives you no special advantage - you get the same rate of return as anyone else. Just to clarify, Rate of Return = Monthly BPO Revenue/(BPO Value+Monthly Mats Cost). Don't make the mistake of thinking T2 BPOs have a high rate of return because their % return on mats alone is high.
Drunk Driver Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2009.03.05 18:09:00 - [2] I don't care.
Gamer4liff Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2009.03.05 18:15:00 - [3] Not that I disagree or anything but it's probably not a good idea to post a thread in General Discussion about T2 BPOs. ----------- Originally by: CCP Whisper Deal with it.
Khemul Zula Amarr Keisen Trade League	Posted - 2009.03.05 18:21:00 - [4] CCP, add a Market Discussion forum please. Sig is now EVE related. Happy mods?
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.03.05 18:23:00 - [5] Originally by: Khrillian Why not settle the debate? Because the debate can't be settled when you have an endless supply of clueless people coming in constantly, and a pretty damned large supply of morons already in. _ Create a character \|\| Fit a ship \|\| Get some ISK
Kosume Ike Amarr GoldenWind	Posted - 2009.03.05 18:26:00 - [6] Sounds great. Very fair. Same as lots of isk. Same as t1 bos, great stuff. Then lets seed T2 BPOs on the npc market and let inventors invent t3.
Khemul Zula Amarr Keisen Trade League	Posted - 2009.03.05 18:31:00 - [7] Originally by: Kosume Ike Then lets seed T2 BPOs on the npc market and let inventors invent t3. Dumbass. See what you started Khrillian. Sig is now EVE related. Happy mods?
Zaknussem Intrum Industria	Posted - 2009.03.05 18:34:00 - [8] If owning a T2 BPO does not give an unfair advantage, then why is the ownership of T2 BPOs such a hot topic among EvE players, even today? Everyone wants to know who owns what BPO, when and why T2 BPOs change hands and especially when any of them get lost and destroyed. This is vital information, up there with where dysprosium and promethium moons are located in EvE (and who's currently mining them) and where alliances park their Titans. All this interest about T2 BPOs can't be solely because they make such hot fashion accesories...so what is it? Rarity? E-peen status? Or is it perhaps because they have a large impact upon the market? Is it because the availability of a T2 BPO for a given T2 item makes or breaks the feasibility of whether it is worth trying to invent the item, especially on a large scale? The only group of players whom keep downplaying the value or importance of T2 BPOs are the owners of said BPOs. Your main would agree on this. T2 BPOs are CCP-sanctioned licenses to print money, handed out to players whom just happened to be playing EvE at a given point in time. If this option was available to everyone, I couldn't care less. But it isn't. An owner of a T2 BPO does not have to go through the hassle of invention to get the final product, nor does the owner has to live with having to consume more resources to accomplish the same task. Quite the opposite, in fact. Until every player has an equal chance (however slim it may be) to get a hold of a T2 BPO, a dark stain will reside on EvE's reputation as a game, and CCP's reputation as competent developers. This needs to be changed, and soon. (Not SoonÖ, soon.)
Ki Tarra Caldari Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2009.03.05 18:36:00 - [9] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Khrillian Why not settle the debate? Because the debate can't be settled when you have an endless supply of clueless people coming in constantly, and a pretty damned large supply of morons already in. This
Kosume Ike Amarr GoldenWind	Posted - 2009.03.05 18:44:00 - [10] Resorting to name calling is juvenile. The op claims T2 blue prints are nothing special. Then seed them. And out of hand dismising the anger which still exists over the t2 lottery is not going to get your point across. Instead will only fuel the calls to do something about those bpos. T2 lottery was rigged. You are NEVER going to make that go away untill t2 bpos are no longer limited in numbers.
Milla Jovo	Posted - 2009.03.05 18:53:00 - [11] What really blows is that T2 bpo's are listed on the market. So any new players wanting to try production gets a slap in the face when they find out about T2 bpo ownership. Anyone that thinks invention = bpo ownership, well, can I have what u are smoking!
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.03.05 18:58:00 - [12] Edited by: Akita T on 05/03/2009 19:03:44 Originally by: Zaknussem If owning a T2 BPO does not give an unfair advantage, then why is the ownership of T2 BPOs such a hot topic among EvE players, even today? Gee, I don't know... let's say you want to look at a Hulk BPO. And let's talk nice, round, approximate numbers. Inventors have driven prices down to under 100 mil for a Hulk, let's call that 100 mil round. With high ME levels, let's say the average T2 BPO manufacture cost is around 50 mil, with 50 mil profit per unit. Even at high PE levels, it takes 21 hours to assemble a Hulk. That means you can make a bit over 400 per year. If you keep producing and selling Hulks from a BPO, you're looking at around 20 bil per year profit. Oh, and to give you a comparison point, a RAVEN BPO with similar ME/PE levels can make around 5 bil per year profit. At the way rarity in the T2 BPO market works, you won't find a Hulk BPO for sale for less than 50 bil, and that if you're lucky, you're probably looking at 60 bil or even more. In contrast, a similarly researched Raven BPO would sell for around 1 bil ISK. So... pay 1 bil, make 5 bil a year... or pay 60 bil, make 20 bil a year. Which sounds better to you ? The reason why T2 BPOs are such a hot topic is the same reason State Issue Ravens are a hot topic... their UNIT price is huge, due to insane rarity... they don't make any more of those, and some of them are lost in time. Quote: Is it because the availability of a T2 BPO for a given T2 item makes or breaks the feasibility of whether it is worth trying to invent the item, especially on a large scale? The only moment T2 BPOs matter for a certain market is if that particular item is in such a LOW demand even BPO owners are hard-pressed to make a decent profit. For everything ELSE, inventors (and inventors alone) set the price. And the higher the demand for an item, the less the existance of T2 BPOs matters. Even if you find it hard to believe, THERE ARE MANY ITEMS THAT HAVE T2 BPOs THAT HAVE A BETTER INVENTION PROFIT THAN ITEMS THAT NEVER HAD ANY T2 BPOs TO BEGIN WITH. And it's all thanks to idiots thinking T2 BPOs really matter for a market where demand is high. As for markets with low demand, not even BPO holders bother. P.S. For the record, I never owned any T2 BPO, and don't plan to buy any, even if I could afford some. Also, again for the record, the vast majority of T2 BPOs in existance nowadays are not in the possession of the original owner. They have been purchased by industrialists, alliances and other such entities for huge amounts of ISK, so they own them fair and square. There are much better ways to make more ISK than using T2 BPOs anyway. Like, uh, say, using T1 BPOs in the proper places. Or trading. Or a lot of other things. _ Create a character \|\| Fit a ship \|\| Get some ISK
Khemul Zula Amarr Keisen Trade League	Posted - 2009.03.05 19:00:00 - [13] Originally by: Kosume Ike Resorting to name calling is juvenile. The op claims T2 blue prints are nothing special. Then seed them. And out of hand dismising the anger which still exists over the t2 lottery is not going to get your point across. Instead will only fuel the calls to do something about those bpos. T2 lottery was rigged. You are NEVER going to make that go away untill t2 bpos are no longer limited in numbers. It's not juvenile, you really are an idiot. You have no idea what you are talking about. You put no thought into your suggestion. CCP will not seed T2, that would completely destroy all the work they put into invention. If they wanted to seed them they would have done it then, instead of creating a whole system to invent T2 BPCs. CCP want's T2 manufacturing to be different then T1. If they moved T3 to invention they would have to rework wormhole space and the way it works. Again, they want T3 to be different from T1 and T2. The only way to stop people ***ing about the non-existant problem of T2 BPOs is to eliminate them, which would lead to ***ing about CCP eliminating T2 BPOs. Basically people just like to complain. No need to change the entire game for them, since they'll just find something else to complain about. Sig is now EVE related. Happy mods?
Khrillian Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2009.03.05 19:08:00 - [14] Originally by: Kosume Ike Resorting to name calling is juvenile. The op claims T2 blue prints are nothing special. Then seed them. And out of hand dismising the anger which still exists over the t2 lottery is not going to get your point across. Instead will only fuel the calls to do something about those bpos. T2 lottery was rigged. You are NEVER going to make that go away untill t2 bpos are no longer limited in numbers. I would say willful ignorance is far more juvenile. If someone is an idiot you're just stating a fact by saying so. Willful ignorance is irresponsible and immature. The ONLY (maybe) legitimate T2 complaint was about the supposed Bob guys blowing up some dev shuttle filled with them. The T2 lottery gave you a chance based on RPs, everyone got the same expected value. Doing R&D was risky, but everyone had the same chance per RP in a given field.
Pnandor	Posted - 2009.03.05 19:09:00 - [15] Well I have play this game more than 2 year and I did create a character who is good on mining and maybee science and I sudenly nontice I hade to train my PVP skill for this game so CCP you are so failer, sudenly CCP stop the T2 lottery and the veterans did keep the t2 lottery omg CCP are a failor again. and I was creating a miner who probebly will manufactoring omg I'am soo failor !!! please help me ? Everyone tells me you can be what you want wrooooooooooooooooong failoooooooooooooooooor! CCP don't say who much time it would takes if you do any profering investment ohh sorry spelling ;)
Abrazzar	Posted - 2009.03.05 19:11:00 - [16] This thread will be at least three pages of regurgitation of the same old arguments puked over this forum over and over again.... -------- Ideas for: Mining
Milla Jovo	Posted - 2009.03.05 19:12:00 - [17] "THERE ARE MANY ITEMS THAT HAVE T2 BPOs THAT HAVE A BETTER INVENTION PROFIT THAN ITEMS THAT NEVER HAD ANY T2 BPOs TO BEGIN WITH" Is there a list that shows all the T2 BPO's. If some items don't have a T2 bpo I would like to know which ones. The thing for me is the time it takes to copy T1 bpo's and the time it takes for many invention jobs to get what, a copy that makes a couple runs of the item. then produce it. When the guy with the T2 bpo just starts another manufacturing job with his T2 bpo.
Kosume Ike Amarr GoldenWind	Posted - 2009.03.05 19:13:00 - [18] Weather or not I am an idiot is debatable and will not be settled in this thread. However you are rude, and that is a fact proven by your words, you also seem to lack self control if people disagreeing with you makes you flip out. Or you enjoy insulting people behind the anonymity of the web. Neither speaks highly of your character. As for the actual arguments you brought up, the "suggestion" of seeding T2 BPOs was a counter point to the OPs flippant statement that they are just like anything else in the game, which they are not. And yes, I would rather see them all removed. It is not lickly to happen.
Khemul Zula Amarr Keisen Trade League	Posted - 2009.03.05 19:19:00 - [19] Originally by: Milla Jovo Is there a list that shows all the T2 BPO's. If some items don't have a T2 bpo I would like to know which ones. Well there are the items that were introduced after invention. Sig is now EVE related. Happy mods?
Pnandor	Posted - 2009.03.05 19:19:00 - [20] Well I can say this I have carebearing in over 2 years and more than what I will CCP faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaiiiiiiiiil!!!
Khrillian Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2009.03.05 19:21:00 - [21] Originally by: Kosume Ike As for the actual arguments you brought up, the "suggestion" of seeding T2 BPOs was a counter point to the OPs flippant statement that they are just like anything else in the game, which they are not. And yes, I would rather see them all removed. It is not lickly to happen. Do you know what rate of return is? If you don't, learn what it is. Otherwise, read the OP again. If you can't do that, here's a tl;dr: While they are different from T1 in some ways, they are identical in the only relevant factor - rate of return.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.03.05 19:22:00 - [22] Originally by: Milla Jovo Is there a list that shows all the T2 BPO's. If some items don't have a T2 bpo I would like to know which ones. CERTAIN all Electronic Attack Ships all Heavy Interdiction Cruisers all Jump Freighters all Marauders all Black Ops all T2 rigs all T2 remote armour repair systems all T2 hull repairers all T2 sentry drones all T2 armour & shield repair drones Large T2 bubble Mining Laser Upgrade II Ice Harvester Upgrade II Capacitor Flux Coil II Shield power relay II Passive Targeter II Survey Scanner II Ship Scanner II Cargo Scanner II Auto targeting system II Reinforced Bulkheads II Warp Core Stabilizer II UNCERTAIN Shield flux coil II ECCM projector II All T2 ECCM Medium Graviton Smartbomb II Some of the large T2 smartbombs _ Create a character \|\| Fit a ship \|\| Get some ISK
Faife Federation of Freedom Fighters	Posted - 2009.03.05 19:23:00 - [23] i have a PLEX bpo
Kosume Ike Amarr GoldenWind	Posted - 2009.03.05 19:25:00 - [24] Originally by: Faife i have a PLEX bpo I want one!!!! How much? :)
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.03.05 19:26:00 - [25] Originally by: Khrillian While they are different from T1 in some ways, they are identical in the only relevant factor - rate of return. Actually, quite the contrary, at the current prices. T1 BPOs can pay off in 2 to 4 months. T2 BPOs will only pay off in 20 to 40 months. _ Create a character \|\| Fit a ship \|\| Get some ISK
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2009.03.05 19:27:00 - [26] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Khrillian Why not settle the debate? Because the debate can't be settled when you have an endless supply of clueless people coming in constantly, and a pretty damned large supply of morons already in. What did you expect? "Thanks finacier!" "I'll start selling mins at cost!" "I'll just compete like everyone else!" You've got to remember that these are just simple gamers. These are people of EVE. The common tritium of New Eden. You know.... morons.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.03.05 19:28:00 - [27] Originally by: Kazzac Elentria What did you expect? "Thanks finacier!" "I'll start selling mins at cost!" "I'll just compete like everyone else!" You've got to remember that these are just simple gamers. These are people of EVE. The common tritium of New Eden. You know.... morons. Our dear old workhorses ? People we thank for our profits ? _ Create a character \|\| Fit a ship \|\| Get some ISK
Cory Sopapilla Minmatar	Posted - 2009.03.05 19:29:00 - [28] My biggest problem is the time it takes to actually manufacture something invented. A researched BPC of 10 max runs of ammo takes about 2 1/2 days to build. An invented one takes twice the materials and over 14 days to build the same amount. 14 DAYS! You'd have to invent 6 at a time and keep 6 manufacture slots going to match that output. Don't get me wrong, I love invention and keep my slots going full time. I just think this is the most overlooked difference between the 2. On a personal note, I don't care one way or another. Congrats to those who have them. I would feel bad if they were to "disappear", but I think there are better options such as tweaking invention. I'd like to see research time on the BPC come into play on the final output (even if random). Something along the lines of....not failing but being somewhere between -5 ME and 1/10 the BPC ME.
Pnandor	Posted - 2009.03.05 19:29:00 - [29] Originally by: Khrillian Originally by: Kosume Ike As for the actual arguments you brought up, the "suggestion" of seeding T2 BPOs was a counter point to the OPs flippant statement that they are just like anything else in the game, which they are not. And yes, I would rather see them all removed. It is not lickly to happen. Do you know what rate of return is? If you don't, learn what it is. Otherwise, read the OP again. If you can't do that, here's a tl;dr: While they are different from T1 in some ways, they are identical in the only relevant factor - rate of return. Point of no return
Cambarus The Baros Syndicate	Posted - 2009.03.05 19:31:00 - [30] When T2 BPOs were seeded they were horribly unfair. It was a luck of the draw sort of thing where winners had items worth 10s of billions of isk. Now however t2 BPOs are 100% fair. Most of the people who currently own them bought them, for huge sums of cash, they EARNED their right to have these isk printing machines. If t2 BPOs are so OP/unfair/whatever, why not just get one for yourself?

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