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FireAnt Caldari Wings of the Storm	Posted - 2009.03.05 20:40:00 - [1] A recent dev blog said that moons in wormhole space will have no value. Why? Why not give others a chance to find other high end moons. It will still take tons of work to find one, set up a pos, mine, protect it, and then get the material back into known space. If people are willing to do that they should be allowed at least the chance to. current game mechanics and ever shrinking eve universe has made getting a rare moon almost impossible unless you are in a very large alliance. wormhole space can give explorers and small alliances and corp a chance to compete against the larger alliances and corps. a by product might even be cheaper t2 ships if there was a bit more desposium around.
Ginako	Posted - 2009.03.05 20:42:00 - [2] No Ice Fields for Fuel and once the Wormhole closes there is no guarantee you'll be able to get back to your POS again. Ever. -------------- Flying Minmatar is like strapping yourself to an office chair and firing Uzi's as you roll down a flight of stairs!
Armoured C Gallente Federation of Freedom Fighters	Posted - 2009.03.05 20:46:00 - [3] Originally by: Ginako No Ice Fields for Fuel and once the Wormhole closes there is no guarantee you'll be able to get back to your POS again. Ever. unless you set up that pos as a base until the fuel runs out i at least thing orca are essential in these endevours as you can use them as a mobile command front if not we need a ship like this for explorational command posts, a ship carrier with ship fitting in space that you can temperorly "siege in space" for the fitting bonus, then we shall feel like true explorers This week EvE Life: Wormhole Wars 01/Feb
Khemul Zula Amarr Keisen Trade League	Posted - 2009.03.05 20:46:00 - [4] Originally by: FireAnt A recent dev blog said that moons in wormhole space will have no value. Why? Because CCP doesn't want to add more of the same. Because you are not going to wormhole space to mine moon minerals. Because certain moon minerals are hard to get a hold of for a reason, and adding more wouldn't fix the problem. Pick whichever one you think fits best Sig is now EVE related. Happy mods?
Caiman Graystock Caldari Comrades in Construction	Posted - 2009.03.05 21:02:00 - [5] Edited by: Caiman Graystock on 05/03/2009 21:01:54 CCP have absolutely made the right decision. Less POS warfare, less cap ships online, less blob, more entertaining lawless space, thank you! Originally by: CCP Whisper So you're going to have to do some actual thinking... Boo hoo. Cry some more.
Cyonidicus	Posted - 2009.03.05 21:05:00 - [6] Originally by: Caiman Graystock Edited by: Caiman Graystock on 05/03/2009 21:01:54 CCP have absolutely made the right decision. Less POS warfare, less cap ships online, less blob, more entertaining lawless space, thank you! Quoted for sheer truth
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.03.05 21:12:00 - [7] Originally by: Caiman Graystock Edited by: Caiman Graystock on 05/03/2009 21:01:54 CCP have absolutely made the right decision. Less POS warfare, less cap ships online, less blob, more entertaining lawless space, thank you! Some "little" information you seem to be missing: 1) Wormhole space is not 0.0; 2) there is no soveregnity in WH space; 3) little caps ship in WH space (thank to mass limits to the WH entry point); 4) little chance of blob in WH space (again the mass limit); 5) lawless space has nothing to do with moon mining or not moon mining.
Abrazzar	Posted - 2009.03.05 21:22:00 - [8] Because a POS in w-space isn't as easily to bring down as in k-space due to the mass limitation of the entry wormholes. It'd be basically a moon material lottery, first come, first serve. Not god. -------- Ideas for: Mining
Frozen Fallout Gallente Infinite Improbability Inc Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2009.03.05 21:36:00 - [9] I think you are underestimating the players here. CCP did the right thing. If there where good moons to mine in W-space alliances would start to target and live in (not really control since there is no sov) these systems with good moons. How? Well you are think of this backwards. Once you get into a system you don't have to leave. It will take time and effort but nothing the blobs of 0.0 couldn't pull off. You wait in the system and find the wormholes out. If you don't like where it goes close it make sure the last trip will get you back to the W-space you wish to hold and go find another. Rinse and Repeat until you find blue or empire space and then get everyone to the K-space system that you have popped out of and get the POS fuel in as well as more people, (as many as you can fit though). Sure the time and effort is crazy but the bigger 0.0 Alliances have a easier time of doing this then a small corp. Also I am sure many can come up with better ways to have an Alliance live in a W-space but now there is no need. Why try to permanently live in 1 system of W-space when you cant mine the moons. You can still set up shop (Carrier, POS, Orca) in a system harvest what you can for a few days and then try and get out packing up shop once you find a good wormhole out. IMHO this is great for small corps.
Caiman Graystock Caldari Comrades in Construction	Posted - 2009.03.05 21:41:00 - [10] Edited by: Caiman Graystock on 05/03/2009 21:41:36 Originally by: Venkul Mul Originally by: Caiman Graystock Edited by: Caiman Graystock on 05/03/2009 21:01:54 CCP have absolutely made the right decision. Less POS warfare, less cap ships online, less blob, more entertaining lawless space, thank you! Some "little" information you seem to be missing: 1) Wormhole space is not 0.0; 2) there is no soveregnity in WH space; 3) little caps ship in WH space (thank to mass limits to the WH entry point); 4) little chance of blob in WH space (again the mass limit); 5) lawless space has nothing to do with moon mining or not moon mining. and you seem to be missing the point. Nothing you said invalidates anything I said. Wormhole space is not 0.0, but it is lawless. I know there isn't sovereignty, so? If there were harvestable moons there would be massive effort to capitalise on that by those with the resources to do so, and after a few months it wouldnt be long until 'the best' wormhole systems were occupied by almost unkillable death stars considering the mass limits on wormholes you mention in your next point means getting caps to kill them in and out in volume will be entirely tedious. As for your final point, it has everything to do with it. The lack of giving large alliances a need to anchor a presence in these systems means more opportunity for small scale engagement in the absence of concord. I am sure some corps or alliances might make attempts to settle into certain wormhole systems, continuously accessing them through clever use of alts to test where new entrances and exits are leading to, but the lack of large scale sustainable industry or harvesting operations beyond having to actively rather than passively collect resources makes this particular lawless space an entirely different and potentially much more exciting venue to play internet spaceships. Originally by: CCP Whisper So you're going to have to do some actual thinking... Boo hoo. Cry some more.
Fox Ogmo Net 7 The Last Brigade	Posted - 2009.03.05 21:58:00 - [11] I can understand this decision, it may actually be the best decision to promote w-space for the smaller non-0.0 groups of players, as now there is less incentive for alliances to flood w-space and hog it for the moons...
Khlitouris RegusII	Posted - 2009.03.05 22:05:00 - [12] Originally by: Venkul Mul Originally by: Caiman Graystock Edited by: Caiman Graystock on 05/03/2009 21:01:54 CCP have absolutely made the right decision. Less POS warfare, less cap ships online, less blob, more entertaining lawless space, thank you! Some "little" information you seem to be missing: 1) Wormhole space is not 0.0; 2) there is no soveregnity in WH space; 3) little caps ship in WH space (thank to mass limits to the WH entry point); 4) little chance of blob in WH space (again the mass limit); 5) lawless space has nothing to do with moon mining or not moon mining. how can wormhole space be anything other than 0.0 space its new undiscovered territory it should be at least 0.0 if not negative sec space.
Akor Flandres	Posted - 2009.03.05 22:25:00 - [13] Originally by: Khlitouris RegusII Originally by: Venkul Mul Originally by: Caiman Graystock Edited by: Caiman Graystock on 05/03/2009 21:01:54 CCP have absolutely made the right decision. Less POS warfare, less cap ships online, less blob, more entertaining lawless space, thank you! Some "little" information you seem to be missing: 1) Wormhole space is not 0.0; 2) there is no soveregnity in WH space; 3) little caps ship in WH space (thank to mass limits to the WH entry point); 4) little chance of blob in WH space (again the mass limit); 5) lawless space has nothing to do with moon mining or not moon mining. how can wormhole space be anything other than 0.0 space its new undiscovered territory it should be at least 0.0 if not negative sec space. It is for all intents and purposes 0.0 in terms of security, and indeed that is how it is labelled in the overview. Venkul was just being a semantics troll, and failing.
Rawr Cristina Caldari Naqam Exalted.	Posted - 2009.03.05 22:36:00 - [14] Edited by: Rawr Cristina on 05/03/2009 22:36:18 If anything this was about the only chance smaller corps had at getting hold of a nice moon. Meh. - Infectious -
FireAnt Caldari Wings of the Storm	Posted - 2009.03.06 01:04:00 - [15] the fact that it would take a very dedicated individual, corp, alliance to even pull off the logistics to moon mine in wormhole space is why it should be allowed. With the new players ccp is trying to add to the game you dont think amount of dysp moons should say the same? since ccp made only one of the 4 super rare moons used for every t2 component part it makes it stupidly priced. adding a bit more with the new subscription coming to eve wouldnt be bad. the only people who wouldnt want more dysp in eve are people that have the moons. why do hacs cost 100million instead of 70? its the dysposium. add more people to eve, that will creat more demand and we will have 200 million isk hacs again. it wont be the maunfacters making more isk, it wont be the inventor, it will be the few corps that have the moons. either they put more moons in, fix the dysposium ratio, or have 200 to 250 million isk hacs.
Captain Rhaiannon	Posted - 2009.03.06 01:11:00 - [16] One thing that would limit this would be the tier 3 ships themselves. If they do not require moon minerals to make, then they, being only slightly more skill intensive than a HAC, would be bought instead of the tier 2 ships. This would make tier 2 ships actually stay the same or drop in value since there is a viable alternative (and possibly cheaper if they hike moon minerals) only a month or less away time wise. Just my thoughts...
FireAnt Caldari Wings of the Storm	Posted - 2009.03.06 01:20:00 - [17] Originally by: Captain Rhaiannon One thing that would limit this would be the tier 3 ships themselves. If they do not require moon minerals to make, then they, being only slightly more skill intensive than a HAC, would be bought instead of the tier 2 ships. This would make tier 2 ships actually stay the same or drop in value since there is a viable alternative (and possibly cheaper if they hike moon minerals) only a month or less away time wise. Just my thoughts... ' they are going to have the same logistic issues as moon mining in wormhole space. they will cost alot and not many are goign to want to lose sp for losing one.
Faife Federation of Freedom Fighters	Posted - 2009.03.06 01:30:00 - [18] Originally by: FireAnt the fact that it would take a very dedicated individual, corp, alliance to even pull off the logistics to moon mine in wormhole space is why it should be allowed. With the new players ccp is trying to add to the game you dont think amount of dysp moons should say the same? since ccp made only one of the 4 super rare moons used for every t2 component part it makes it stupidly priced. adding a bit more with the new subscription coming to eve wouldnt be bad. the only people who wouldnt want more dysp in eve are people that have the moons. why do hacs cost 100million instead of 70? its the dysposium. add more people to eve, that will creat more demand and we will have 200 million isk hacs again. it wont be the maunfacters making more isk, it wont be the inventor, it will be the few corps that have the moons. either they put more moons in, fix the dysposium ratio, or have 200 to 250 million isk hacs. they're setting up wormhole space for t3, not t2. deal with it. move on, we all did. if you're so worried about HACs, invest in alchemy POSes
FireAnt Caldari Wings of the Storm	Posted - 2009.03.06 01:48:00 - [19] Originally by: Faife Originally by: FireAnt the fact that it would take a very dedicated individual, corp, alliance to even pull off the logistics to moon mine in wormhole space is why it should be allowed. With the new players ccp is trying to add to the game you dont think amount of dysp moons should say the same? since ccp made only one of the 4 super rare moons used for every t2 component part it makes it stupidly priced. adding a bit more with the new subscription coming to eve wouldnt be bad. the only people who wouldnt want more dysp in eve are people that have the moons. why do hacs cost 100million instead of 70? its the dysposium. add more people to eve, that will creat more demand and we will have 200 million isk hacs again. it wont be the maunfacters making more isk, it wont be the inventor, it will be the few corps that have the moons. either they put more moons in, fix the dysposium ratio, or have 200 to 250 million isk hacs. they're setting up wormhole space for t3, not t2. deal with it. move on, we all did. if you're so worried about HACs, invest in alchemy POSes that is hardly the answer, currently after running the what 20 to 25 pos you have to run to do alchemy there is no money made. we have alchemy atm and dysposium prices are still stupid. Also with alchemy you need other second teir moon material to make dysposium. guess what, most of those are also controlled by large alliances.
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.03.06 02:01:00 - [20] I made a post in Game Development about this, but basically with a halfway competent corp, you could easily take control of high-end moons in w-space and it would be almost impossible to dislodge you. Easymode dyspro moons are bad, mkay?
Frosty Nuggetz	Posted - 2009.03.06 04:10:00 - [21] I guess the idea is (hypothetically) CCP wants WH space to be populated by bands of roaming players, nomadic vagabonds of the stars, questing for lostech and all that rot, then so be it. The notion does have a certain coolness to it. But without even a handful of mineable moons, to make logical "hubs" for colonists to carve out a living, don't be too surprised when three months from now the forums are filled with oodles of threads about "Why is WH-space underpopulated?" and various similar issues. I like cool new story arcs as much as the next guy, but I don't think it would have ruined "the fluff" either by having a few mineable moons here and there.
Protheroe	Posted - 2009.03.06 07:13:00 - [22] Originally by: Frozen Fallout Sure the time and effort is crazy but the bigger 0.0 Alliances have a easier time of doing this then a small corp. Why would a large alliance choose to take moons in wormhole space when it would be much easier for them to take ones in known space? Large alliances would be better equipped to take moons in wormhole space initially, but they would be at a disadvantage in maintaining them, since their logistics are tied up in known space. Maintaining a POS in wormhole space would effectively require you to live there, and this would be impractical for large alliances whose manpower is needed to maintain their territory in known space. Originally by: Fox Ogmo I can understand this decision, it may actually be the best decision to promote w-space for the smaller non-0.0 groups of players, as now there is less incentive for alliances to flood w-space and hog it for the moons... If alliances did flood wormhole space, it would not be for moons. First, it is not possible to claim sovereignty in wormhole space, which is the usual reason for an alliance to maintain a presence (due to jump bridges, outposts, and the protection of cyno jammers). Second, there are many high end moons in low sec and NPC sovereignty 0.0 systems which are owned by large alliances, but these alliances often have no day-to-day presence in these systems at all. Third, wormhole space is not structured in the same way as normal space. Even if large alliances did dominate the systems with the best moons, it would be a tiny fraction of the total systems (most would probably not be the best systems for other resources such as NPCs and gas harvesting either), and it would have no effect on the rest of wormhole space as traffic routes through these systems will be random. Even if there were hundreds of systems in wormhole space with high end moons, your chance of running in to one of them would be miniscule. Originally by: Kahega Amieldan Easymode dyspro moons are bad, mkay? Agreed. Maintaining a moon harvesting POS in wormhole space however would be much more challenging than it is in normal 0.0 or low sec.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.03.06 07:21:00 - [23] Edited by: Venkul Mul on 06/03/2009 07:24:03 Originally by: Khlitouris RegusII Originally by: Venkul Mul Originally by: Caiman Graystock Edited by: Caiman Graystock on 05/03/2009 21:01:54 CCP have absolutely made the right decision. Less POS warfare, less cap ships online, less blob, more entertaining lawless space, thank you! Some "little" information you seem to be missing: 1) Wormhole space is not 0.0; 2) there is no soveregnity in WH space; 3) little caps ship in WH space (thank to mass limits to the WH entry point); 4) little chance of blob in WH space (again the mass limit); 5) lawless space has nothing to do with moon mining or not moon mining. how can wormhole space be anything other than 0.0 space its new undiscovered territory it should be at least 0.0 if not negative sec space. No sovereignty alone make it NON-0.0 space. It is lawless space, but it is not 0.0. The other differences (special rats, no belts, tactical environment, no cynos, no moons minerals (damn), no local), make it even more different from 0.0. It i WH space, not 0.0 space. Got it? Originally by: Akor Flandres It is for all intents and purposes 0.0 in terms of security, and indeed that is how it is labelled in the overview. Venkul was just being a semantics troll, and failing. I am a rule lawyer if you want, but the difference in rules make it not-0.0 by a big shot. Lacking from the above list of important differences: no access choke points that can be controlled by a small fleet; no station (PC or NPC controlled).
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.03.06 07:27:00 - [24] Originally by: Captain Rhaiannon One thing that would limit this would be the tier 3 ships themselves. If they do not require moon minerals to make, then they, being only slightly more skill intensive than a HAC, would be bought instead of the tier 2 ships. This would make tier 2 ships actually stay the same or drop in value since there is a viable alternative (and possibly cheaper if they hike moon minerals) only a month or less away time wise. Just my thoughts... T3 (so far) don't require moon minerals. That can be one of the reasons for the lack of moon resources. CCP don't feel that they can lower the T3 production cost further, so they are keeping T2 production high to make T3 competitive.
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2009.03.06 09:34:00 - [25] Originally by: FireAnt A recent dev blog said that moons in wormhole space will have no value. Why? Why not give others a chance to find other high end moons. It will still take tons of work to find one, set up a pos, mine, protect it, and then get the material back into known space. If people are willing to do that they should be allowed at least the chance to. Oh, ha. I can understand you and other people being greedy and being disappointed that their riskfree isk machine isn't going to work... but please. "Take a ton of work"? Ha. Finding wormholes is easy. Setting up a POS is dead easy (just need a pile of haulers). "Defending it"? Against what? What sort of cap fleet do you imagine anyone would be able to get into w-space, due to mass restrictions? Anyone setting up a deathstar POS there would be invulnerable (unless CCP make the Sleepers mount serious POS attacks, which would be quite cool ). If CCP allowed moon mining in w-space, it would fill up with deathstar POSes fast. And who is best at putting up a ton of POSes really fast? That's right, the huge alliances. Do the math.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.03.06 13:04:00 - [26] Originally by: Alex Harumichi Originally by: FireAnt A recent dev blog said that moons in wormhole space will have no value. Why? Why not give others a chance to find other high end moons. It will still take tons of work to find one, set up a pos, mine, protect it, and then get the material back into known space. If people are willing to do that they should be allowed at least the chance to. Oh, ha. I can understand you and other people being greedy and being disappointed that their riskfree isk machine isn't going to work... but please. "Take a ton of work"? Ha. Finding wormholes is easy. Setting up a POS is dead easy (just need a pile of haulers). "Defending it"? Against what? What sort of cap fleet do you imagine anyone would be able to get into w-space, due to mass restrictions? Anyone setting up a deathstar POS there would be invulnerable (unless CCP make the Sleepers mount serious POS attacks, which would be quite cool ). If CCP allowed moon mining in w-space, it would fill up with deathstar POSes fast. And who is best at putting up a ton of POSes really fast? That's right, the huge alliances. Do the math. Refuelling it and moving the production to a market will nor require work, right? Especially as you will not know where your exit point will be from a day (or even an hour) to another and will easily spawn in low sec or 0.0. You know that there are more 0.0 systems than empire (hi and low) system and so a mechanic that open random access point will open them more often in 0.0 that in empire systems (of any sec level)?
FireAnt Caldari Wings of the Storm	Posted - 2009.03.06 15:07:00 - [27] 250million isk hacs here we come \0/ as far as dislodging a group with a deathstar, well you choke them out. no fuel no pos. if they lose ships it will be hard to replace them. it can be done. further more, i didnt say make every moon dysposium. put the same ratio out in wormhole space, make them rare. i dont see how anyone except people who have dysposium moons would complain about wormhole space having mineable moons. i mean who wants to have to mine or npc for 8 hours to get a hac? i dont. people wont be able to afford t2 ships at all.
Frozen Fallout Gallente Infinite Improbability Inc Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2009.03.06 15:30:00 - [28] Originally by: FireAnt 250million isk hacs here we come \0/ as far as dislodging a group with a deathstar, well you choke them out. no fuel no pos. if they lose ships it will be hard to replace them. it can be done. further more, i didnt say make every moon dysposium. put the same ratio out in wormhole space, make them rare. i dont see how anyone except people who have dysposium moons would complain about wormhole space having mineable moons. i mean who wants to have to mine or npc for 8 hours to get a hac? i dont. people wont be able to afford t2 ships at all. I think the fact remains that worm hole space isn't meant to be permanently lived in like normal space. If the moons had good minerals to mine, there would be a really good reason to permanently live in that system. Now that we know no moons have minerals there is little to no reason to live in w-space. W-space is the place for explores and adventures who are looking to fly into the unknown and hoping to come back home someday. Not a new place to set up your own little house.
Primnproper	Posted - 2009.03.06 16:56:00 - [29] Edited by: Primnproper on 06/03/2009 16:56:49 Originally by: Venkul Mul I am a rule lawyer if you want, but the difference in rules make it not-0.0 by a big shot. So your right and CCP who put the thing in the corner saying 0.0 are wrong then are they, oh wait no I've got that the wrong way round..... ... Originally by: Graveyard Tan I call bull**** and troll. If you are deaf, how are you even able to read this or type replies?
Alora Venoda GalTech Whiskey Creek Alliance	Posted - 2009.03.06 19:25:00 - [30] if the moons in w-space will have anything at all, it should be ALL NEW STUFF, and there should be ALL NEW ways to harvest it too... ~~~~ ~~~~ ~~~~ Take away the risk and it would make flying around in space utterly pointless. Take away the flying around part and you make EVE into a space themed spreadsheet application.

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