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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 2 post(s)
Yakov Draken Minmatar Tides Of War	Posted - 2009.03.21 23:00:00 - [1] Originally by: Childstar Edited by: Childstar on 21/03/2009 22:37:32 Originally by: Electric Universe Yeah the Mega is a little out of CPU before any cpu implants. Fine then post your fit with CPU implants and including high, mid and low slot modules....try being honest for once in this thread. And i do not need the geddon cos i have the baddon and its better. Even with the lowest CPU web and point it is still 739.25/687.5. CPU from what i can see. I quick play gives me this no implants fit. [Megathron, Plated remote rep 3x MFS] 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Internal Force Field Array I Amarr Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane Adaptive Nano Plating II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II 100MN MicroWarpdrive II Conjunctive Magnetometric ECCM Scanning Array I Warp Scrambler II Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800 Large 'Solace' I Remote Bulwark Reconstruction Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Trimark Armor Pump I Trimark Armor Pump I Trimark Armor Pump I Ogre II x5 Pretty damn brutal ship and the tracking completely outclasses the Abaddon up close. Not my favourite Mega setup but it is roughly what you guys were arguing about and not too pricey. The Mega is tricky to fit and it pays to have a big wallet. With a big wallet it is a suberb up close brawler. Considering how bad BS tracking is the Mega's leet tracking is very tasty. The Abaddon is a very nice ship and I like the single RR fit. Abaddon has more range and tank than the Mega while the Mega has better tracking and damage so it is about what you are doing and gang balence. Tides of War used blasters a lot before the speed chages and we have continued to use them a lot since. Blasters are still pwning up close, the Mega is still awesome, and now we get to laugh about all the people saying blasters are dead.
Yakov Draken Minmatar Tides Of War	Posted - 2009.03.21 23:05:00 - [2] Originally by: Electric Universe {mega} gets pretty expensive. So in other words, you can buy a Megathron Navy Issue with a nice faction fit and get everything to fit without ANY implants at all for the same price instead. And that Navy Mega will pwn the hell out of the Abaddon anyways. 1. Mega is not that expensive to fit 2. Navy Mega is incredibly hard/expensive to fit 3. Navy Mega's attract sharks from all round Navy Mega is an awesome ship but it does not belong in this discussion nor does it need to - the Mega is one of the best BS in the game.
Yakov Draken Minmatar Tides Of War	Posted - 2009.03.22 00:08:00 - [3] Edited by: Yakov Draken on 22/03/2009 00:10:02 Originally by: Childstar Its not a fit id use for several reasons, firstly no web so whatever tracking you thinks gonna get better dmg at close range over the abaddon in gang combat forget it. I'm sorry but this doesn't make any sense at all. This is a BS fit with a RR for using in a gang - it doesn't have to have a web. The gang has to have the web. We are not talking 1v1's here. Originally by: Childstar Even standing a chance of slowing down secondary targets ect is also gone out the window although you will be nicely webbed by the baddons...so do not even think your getting close to your optimal against them. Is that your Abaddon with no ECCM that can't lock anything because it has been jammed? That was right after we came right out of warp right on top of you. I've fought many, many, times in a short range BS and being too close to the target to track has been a more commmen problem than getting close enough. I've been told on these forums before that Amarr's range is pwnage and blasters won't get in optimal yet we do it constantly in low sec and I see other people doing it all the time. Remote reps don't have very long range yet somehow we get those on each other. In a low sec right now pirates are ripping ships to pieces with their blasters, giggling inanely, and drooling on the theoriticans wreck. "Blasters are dead," he cried - and then he died. We even named a Mega after him. Originally by: Childstar But its still not as good or as effective as the abaddon fit. It is different. If you want more damage bring more Mega's - if you want more range and tank bring more Abaddons. If up close tracking is an issue then more Mega's - etc. Personally I like Mega's with a very different setup to the 3xMFS but regardless I think it is very silly to say an Abaddon is simply better than a Mega when the ships are so different in their strengths. "My ship is better - it is just better!" PvP comes in many styles and flavors in Eve and ships value changes according to usage. The whole don't compare a tier 2 to a tier 3 BS is wrong. The Typhoon is the best Minmatar BS for low sec piracy and I compare its' setups to Domi's, Mega's, and Abaddons all the time because I, and corpmates, are choosing which to fly and/or train for. I can't believe people are still moaning over blasters - I'm a Minmatar pilot and we have large AC's - what do you have to complain of? Large AC's are such an awful weapon system that a Tempest with double damage bonus's does crap damage using them. Double damage bonus on a ship whose biggest problem is crap damage? It is un******* believable.
Yakov Draken Minmatar Tides Of War	Posted - 2009.03.22 00:20:00 - [4] Originally by: Childstar We are comparing, the hyperion gang even with 2 lars fitted each could never tank the 10 abaddon gang, but the 10 abaddons with 1 RR fitted each and their high resists and ehp could easily tank the 10 hyperion gang then 9 hyperion gang...then 8...7...6....5... The Hyperion, like all rep amount bonus ships, is suited to very small gangs or solo. Your 10 RR Abaddons vs 10 onboard rep Hyps is not fair. I don't like the Hyp much at all but I've fought against some used by solo pirates with insane tanks. If you like docking games or the ilk then a Hyp, or Myrm, with an overheated tank run by a pilot on boosters seems to survive pretty well.
Yakov Draken Minmatar Tides Of War	Posted - 2009.03.22 00:43:00 - [5] Originally by: Chi Quan Originally by: Yakov Draken I'm sorry but this doesn't make any sense at all. This is a BS fit with a RR for using in a gang - it doesn't have to have a web. The gang has to have the web. We are not talking 1v1's here. .... Is that your Abaddon with no ECCM that can't lock anything because it has been jammed? That was right after we came right out of warp right on top of you. 1. indeed, SOMEONE has to have the web, and while a mega fights in web range it could very well bring one. would you prefer a rapier instead? fine, now modules are not enough to make blasters work, we now need entire ships. So every BS in a gang has to take what it needs to work? In the age of the Falcon this approach is really dodgy. Build you gangs mid slots up as a gang. Fit ECCM or die in a fire unable to remote rep anyone or shot anything. Stop putting 1 v 1 logic into gang setups. Originally by: Chi Quan 2. last time i checked mega and abba had the same number of mids. Right so the Abaddon should give up on the idea of fitting a web and a point and make sure its got an ECCM. do you want a graph showing the dps of a mega with and without the web? you say you fly minmatar, you should know how fatal the lack of agility is.[/
Yakov Draken Minmatar Tides Of War	Posted - 2009.03.22 00:55:00 - [6] Originally by: Childstar And yes up until a little while ago i flew blaster BS in low sec and 0.0, but that was because i had not finished training amarr...now i have.. You are one of many Gallente BS pilots to go this course including some high profile ones on this forum. It was fun reading about how they pwned in their shiny Abaddon, and then how they seemed to have trouble getting damage on targets up close, and then to see them back in local in Mega's. Gotta love FOTM. Amarr is cool - Abaddons rock. So does a Mega. We have pilots of both in our corp and this is a good thing. On the whle I prefer the Mega as piracy suits high damage approaches - kill quick (before they de-aggro etc) and get out. These 10 vs 10 faceups you keep talking about don't have much to do with Eve pvp.
Yakov Draken Minmatar Tides Of War	Posted - 2009.03.22 01:00:00 - [7] Originally by: Childstar active tanks just do not cut it on TQ anymore for BS. I'm a huge fan of passive tanks and RR but please kill the cliche's. Not everyone flies in a gang all the time. Some people actually do solo pvp and kill stuff - yeah I know its supposed to be dead but it is not. Passive RR fits don't cut it solo - just saying. "Its black!" No it is white!" "It is black!" "No it is white!" Been awhile since I posted here and I sorta forgot how it works.
Yakov Draken Minmatar Tides Of War	Posted - 2009.03.22 01:52:00 - [8] Edited by: Yakov Draken on 22/03/2009 02:12:59 Originally by: Childstar I have never had trouble hitting other BS in any of the pulse BS, especially those that are sitting on a gate waiting to deagro. I was not thinking of BS's though you will get misses on a BS orbiting up close - say a Typhoon not concerned about tracking. I shoot at a lot of different targets so the ability to kill HAC's, CMD's, BC's, CR's is all part of the equation. BS tracking sucks and it matters. Originally by: Childstar I have found that over all the pulse do more dps as they can fit 3 dmg mods as well as the fact they do not get reduced dmg because of the need to approach a 4.5km optimal, but can hit for high dmg from the start. We fly with a mix of BS's in armor tanked RR gangs. Corp fits and now days mostly a good number of max skilled pilots. We can see what damage we do from killmails and discuss the why's and wherefore's. - In a gate gank range is crucial. - In the good fights RR's determine range and generally it up close and brutal. The Mega comes out fantastically. We use a somewhat quirky lower damage fit and its' damage numbers are still excellent. Abaddons perform very well but all up behind the Mega on contribution to most big fights. Where the Abaddon shines is in chaotic mixed range combats and there they are a huge boon. Chaotic mixed range combats are not generally what RR BS's are best at so that is not the sort of fight we try and setup but it is nice to have options. The 25% extra resists of the Abaddon doesn't mean much to the gang unless all Abaddons or you are a bait ship. It helps to get you out alive but what matters to the gang is the HP's/resists of the primary/secondary/tertiary (ie not the Abaddons), the groups damage and the amount of remote repping happening. Having overtanked ships (ie greater than the rest) in a gang gives diminished returns especially if it is an obvious bait ship like the Abaddon.
Yakov Draken Minmatar Tides Of War	Posted - 2009.03.22 02:10:00 - [9] Originally by: Childstar Be honest if you are going solo pvping you first choice is no longer a BS is it? No it is not. Never was for me though I have solo'd (with alt scout) in an active tank Tempest and will do it again given the right target. Mission running BS needing to traverse a gate, random dude undocking from our station of death etc. I have trashed the Hyperion many time but recently a corp mate decided to look at a Hyperion version of his solo Myrm and the resulting fit is goddam hilarious. I still don't like the Hyperion on the whole but I believe there is at least one viable version for solo combat. Successful solo fits can be very wacky.
Yakov Draken Minmatar Tides Of War	Posted - 2009.03.22 20:48:00 - [10] Typhoon is a great RR BS but I don't like that Typhoon fit at all. I see no good reason to fit one RR over 2 on a Phoon. In RR BS fights I've been in the side with 2xRR's per BS handily beats the side with 1xRR per BS all else being roughly equal. Also large AC's are pretty naff so you are probably better fitting a couple of RR's, a couple of neuts, and 4 T2 siege launchers. Originally by: Cohkka Originally by: Yakov Draken Personally I like Mega's with a very different setup to the 3xMFS but regardless I think it is very silly to say an Abaddon is simply better than a Mega when the ships are so different in their strengths. "My ship is better - it is just better!" PvP comes in many styles and flavors in Eve and ships value changes according to usage. This is very true, and this is the exact reason for a thread like this. Blasters work good in their intended role, but how many people do perform in this role? Their role of dealing as much damage as possible only pays of when the target has any significant tank and it's speed, distance and the size of the gang works in your favor. You're very limited in the possible tasks you can perform well and you have to sacrifice your surviveability and flexability for this. For me personally, blasters have little value appart from the odd "lets have some fun and giggles and crash our ships into the next gang we come across". Noooooooooo! Please don't aggree with me then argue the opposite. I dunno why so many people can't figure this out: - Remote reps are short range - Blasters are short range - RR fights are short range - Blasters rock in RR fights - RR BS are pretty damn pwn so blasters rock. If you fought regularily in RR BS gangs this would be obvious. Blasters are not an odd, gimicky weapon, for use on occassion, they are a brutal face pwnage system that combo's with one of the most powerful tactics in the game - remote repping.

Yakov Draken Minmatar Tides Of War	Posted - 2009.03.22 21:39:00 - [11] Originally by: Childstar Edited by: Childstar on 22/03/2009 21:11:45 Originally by: Yakov Draken I dunno why so many people can't figure this out: A- Remote reps are short range B- Blasters are short range C- RR fights are short range D- Blasters rock in RR fights E- RR BS are pretty damn pwn so blasters rock. Ok now i agreed with you for A and B, but for C i kinda agree a little, but not that close range means at blasters 4.5km optimal or even near it and as such D is not acurate when you consider the RR mega fit and its limited range of good damage along with its rather weak tank compared to the other races available BS RR fits. And E makes no sense at all and is not part of any logical progression i can even think of. RR gangs sit close together and are the easisest target to get close to in the game. Really the range of RR's should answer this but seeing as it doesn't: 1. RR BS gang sitting on gate - another RR BS gang warps in to fight it and they both start shooting. People are between 0-6k's apart and the main issue is missing by being to close. 2. RR BS gang jumps through gate to attack RR BS gang on gate. Gang jumping in approaches gate to get close enough for their circle jerk and short range pwnage ensues. 3. RR BS gang undocks and opens up on RR BS gang sitting on undock and close range pwnage ensues. These scenario's happen a lot in real combats - this is not me making up examples but describing how we fight. RR ships like sitting on gates/stations as it means they can de-aggro and jump out/dock up plus it is the rally point for getting everyone close for the RR's. Blasters even do good damage with Null out to mid ranges. Btw Mega's don't have weak tanks compared to other RR BS's. They have roughtly the same as most - sometimes weaker, sometimes better, depending on setup.
Yakov Draken Minmatar Tides Of War	Posted - 2009.03.23 00:27:00 - [12] Originally by: Childstar Edited by: Childstar on 22/03/2009 22:33:01 Originally by: Yakov Draken RR gangs sit close together and are the easisest target to get close to in the game. Really the range of RR's should answer this but seeing as it doesn't: The range of RR's means a RR gang needs to be within 8km of their own members not the hostile ships and that gives a lot of room to play with against a megas 4.5km sweet spot. So your argument boils down to having discovered a sweet spot for Abaddons to operate at about 8k outclassing the Mega's 4.5 optimal? This really isn't practical. The Abaddon has to be in remote rep range of its' whole gang not just the primary, same with the other side. End result is a big cluster** nine times out of ten. Sure you can slowboat out to 8k (MWDing will be too uncontrollable and you may well be scrambled) but then you may be 16k from a mate who slowboated out the other direction. If you all slowboated together then we just slowboat out to half way between your group and the primary - 4k's to each - and then bump the primary outside your rep range. Etc, etc, etc. We can theorize forever but in practice trying to do ballet in an RR fight is going to lead to fail 9 times out of 10 as ships that are webbed and scrambled lose contact with each other. In practice it pays to stay tight and pwn face. Maybe do some synchronised swimming when the opportunity allows - ballet no. Btw 1 RR on an Abaddon is cute but really - 1 RR? What are you going to save with that? Originally by:** Childstar [The problem with the mega fit is if you trade up for even a reasonable tank you reduce its dmg and visa versa and for a ship that spends most of its time in everybody elses optimal and as a big candidate for being primary target (even in your scenarios) it needs some love. The Mega can get a really nice gank/tank balence with two magstabs, 2 plates - stick two RR's on if you want to contribute significantly to remote repping and it is still doing over 1000dps. Mega is expensive to get the best out of so suits corps with high efficiencies and deep pockets. I'm part way through cross-training to Gallente as I have largely finished Matar. The Mega was the single biggest reason for me to begin seriously crosstraining to Gallente. I thought hard about Caldari for the Raven and Drake for pirate "I'm a carebear" lolz and the abiltiy to reach out and touch those pesky recons - I will train for the Drake/Raven at some stage. I have an Amarr alt with all the tasty stuff so no need to go their. Ooh and obligatory Typhoon rocks - Tempest sucks. Fix large AC's - two damage bonus's + two gyro's on a Tempest = poor damage and crap tank. Dunno how people can complain about the Mega and Blasters while the Tempest exists and large AC's make a joke of it.
Yakov Draken Minmatar Tides Of War	Posted - 2009.03.23 02:17:00 - [13] Originally by: The Djego Originally by: Liang Nuren Anyway. I think we should rename this thread from 'Should I give up on blasters' to 'Should I give up on this thread'. -Liang This. Agreed. Time for the fix Large AC's save the Tempest mega thread. For too long has this injustice gone on - to the keyboards! NighmareX please don't mess up our Tempest threads. Take the sword out of your back and stop shooting yourself in the foot!

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