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Chris Stokes Ashfell Celestial Equilibrium POD-SQUAD 1	Posted - 2012.04.27 09:51:00 - [1] - Quote Hi all, Is it actually worth while using the specific damage type drones in L4 missions (and all missions generally)? (e.g using thermal drones on thermal weak ships etc) I have been reading a lot of information floating around, debating this question but no definite answer. Thanks in advance.
Iteken Hotori The Flowing Penguins Iron Oxide. 0	Posted - 2012.04.27 10:07:00 - [2] - Quote Nah use Hobgoblin II's, Hammerhead II's or Ogre II's.
Chris Stokes Ashfell Celestial Equilibrium POD-SQUAD 1	Posted - 2012.04.27 10:18:00 - [3] - Quote Thanks for the answer, I would like some more details as to why. (from anyone who wishes to divulge) Regards
Tomcio FromFarAway The Scope Gallente Federation 12	Posted - 2012.04.27 10:36:00 - [4] - Quote Because of resistance profile. Different ships have different resistances so hitting for their lowest resist will result in dealing higher damage. For instance Serpentis rats have low kinetic/thermal resists so using this damage type is more effective than using em/exp. Generally speaking - thermal drones ( Hobgoblins/Hammerheads/Ogres/Gardes ) are more universal because most rats have thermal as their second tank hole and those drones are stronger than other drones ( higher damage modifier ). Of course using other types might be better idea in some scenarios - like using Minmatar drones against Angels because those drones deal ideal damage and are faster. Here you have some info about damage/resistance profiles of different factions : DmgResProfile
Krixtal Icefluxor Bison - Ammatar Thunder Thundering Herd 611	Posted - 2012.04.27 10:56:00 - [5] - Quote Fighting the Sansha in Missions pretty much requires Acolytes (EM). YES, damage types of drones is important. Anyone saying different is a forum troll. There isn't anything left for you to do to Carebears. -áGo, kill them some more. They're like fungus or bacteria, they won't die and they won't stop. All you have to show for years of organized harassment campaigns against them is ... nothing.
Flurk Hellbron Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 92	Posted - 2012.04.27 10:56:00 - [6] - Quote Depends on the situation, but I think it ain't worth to train for all Drone types. Just those that are mentioned above. And even then for Drone ships (as Dominix and most Gallente Ships), coz you will need to have a decent Drone bay on ur active ship.
Chris Stokes Ashfell Celestial Equilibrium POD-SQUAD 1	Posted - 2012.04.27 11:08:00 - [7] - Quote I might take a few flavors of drones to my next l4 mission and find out how much time is saved by using the relevant damage type, as there already seems to be conflicting answers...
Krixtal Icefluxor Bison - Ammatar Thunder Thundering Herd 611	Posted - 2012.04.27 11:34:00 - [8] - Quote Chris Stokes wrote: I might take a few flavors of drones to my next l4 mission and find out how much time is saved by using the relevant damage type, as there already seems to be conflicting answers... Sansha are so weak in EM why would one NOT use the EM Drones ? This thread is phail indeed. And Level 3 of the specializations is hardly a day of training. Big deal. There isn't anything left for you to do to Carebears. -áGo, kill them some more. They're like fungus or bacteria, they won't die and they won't stop. All you have to show for years of organized harassment campaigns against them is ... nothing.
Chris Stokes Ashfell Celestial Equilibrium POD-SQUAD 1	Posted - 2012.04.27 11:42:00 - [9] - Quote Krixtal Icefluxor wrote: Chris Stokes wrote: I might take a few flavors of drones to my next l4 mission and find out how much time is saved by using the relevant damage type, as there already seems to be conflicting answers... Sansha are so weak in EM why would one NOT use the EM Drones ? This thread is phail indeed. And Level 3 of the specializations is hardly a day of training. Big deal. Yay first asshat of the thread. I am new and I am asking an honest question....
Krixtal Icefluxor Bison - Ammatar Thunder Thundering Herd 611	Posted - 2012.04.27 11:48:00 - [10] - Quote Chris Stokes wrote: Yay first asshat of the thread. I am new and I am asking an honest question.... I gave you legitimate advice. YES the proper drones are essential. The drone specializations are not that annoying to bring to Level 4. Your deceptive asshat is poster #2 recommending ONLY Thermal Drones. That will not work on Sansha or Angels with any expediency. The End. There isn't anything left for you to do to Carebears. -áGo, kill them some more. They're like fungus or bacteria, they won't die and they won't stop. All you have to show for years of organized harassment campaigns against them is ... nothing.
Chris Stokes Ashfell Celestial Equilibrium POD-SQUAD 1	Posted - 2012.04.27 12:15:00 - [11] - Quote Krixtal Icefluxor wrote: Chris Stokes wrote: Yay first asshat of the thread. I am new and I am asking an honest question.... I gave you legitimate advice. YES the proper drones are essential. The drone specializations are not that annoying to bring to Level 4. Your deceptive asshat is poster #2 recommending ONLY Thermal Drones. That will not work on Sansha or Angels with any expediency. The End. Well I appreciate the honest advice, I just didn't appreciate the unpleasant comment "This thread is phail indeed." I will take your comments on board and use damage specific drones so thank you.
Iteken Hotori The Flowing Penguins Iron Oxide. 1	Posted - 2012.04.27 12:28:00 - [12] - Quote Krixtal Icefluxor wrote: Chris Stokes wrote: I might take a few flavors of drones to my next l4 mission and find out how much time is saved by using the relevant damage type, as there already seems to be conflicting answers... Sansha are so weak in EM why would one NOT use the EM Drones ? Acolyte II damage Modifier: 1.38x Hobgoblin II damage modifier: 1.92x You can do the rest of the maths yourself i hope. (also they have the highest EHP - making it less likely to lose them) even in PVP, the choices are usually: warriors to kill tackle. hobgoblins to shoot stuff, or Sentry's/Ogre II's just...because. Quote: deceptive asshat now now, no need to be unplesant just because you are wrong.
Tomcio FromFarAway The Scope Gallente Federation 12	Posted - 2012.04.27 12:33:00 - [13] - Quote Krixtal Icefluxor wrote: Chris Stokes wrote: Yay first asshat of the thread. I am new and I am asking an honest question.... I gave you legitimate advice. YES the proper drones are essential. The drone specializations are not that annoying to bring to Level 4. Your deceptive asshat is poster #2 recommending ONLY Thermal Drones. That will not work on Sansha or Angels with any expediency. The End. Basic mathematics is so hard to grasp as it seems. On most Sansha rats the difference in resistances between em/th is 10% ( that includes cruisers, destroyers, battleships and battle cruisers ). Elite rats have even smaller difference. Thermal drones have much higher damage mod than em drones. Now go and do some math exercises. If you need help with basic additions and divisions don't be afraid to ask. I will gladly help you with those. Currently helping my little nephew with this stuff and I don't think he will mind some "adult" company.
Chris Stokes Ashfell Celestial Equilibrium POD-SQUAD 1	Posted - 2012.04.27 12:49:00 - [14] - Quote "On most Sansha rats the difference in resistances between em/th is 10% ( that includes cruisers, destroyers, battleships and battle cruisers ). Elite rats have even smaller difference." "Acolyte II damage Modifier: 1.38x Hobgoblin II damage modifier: 1.92x" Is there anything else that does into the formula for damage output or is this it? (i.e damage multifplier + damage type/resistance) (excluding skills etc)
Tomcio FromFarAway The Scope Gallente Federation 13	Posted - 2012.04.27 13:15:00 - [15] - Quote Chris Stokes wrote: "On most Sansha rats the difference in resistances between em/th is 10% ( that includes cruisers, destroyers, battleships and battle cruisers ). Elite rats have even smaller difference." "Acolyte II damage Modifier: 1.38x Hobgoblin II damage modifier: 1.92x" Is there anything else that does into the formula for damage output or is this it? (i.e damage multifplier + damage type/resistance) (excluding skills etc) It's only about damage mod and rat resists. Drone damage mod is modified by your skills ( CDO, DI, racial spec etc ), ship bonuses and rigs ( for sentry drones ). Another thing you could take into account is travel time but it makes things unnecessarily overcomplicated so it's generally better to ignore it. From my own experience : Thermal drones are usually the best ones. Exp drones ( Minmatar ) seems to be better against Angel Cartel rats. When using sentries : Gardes/Bouncers for closer - mid ranges. Wardens for long range. If you want to check specific rat resistances then this is a very good and up to date site : EveRatStats If you are using drone boat then just load up different drones and see for yourself what type is better for your needs.
nahjustwarpin Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 14	Posted - 2012.04.27 13:31:00 - [16] - Quote Chris Stokes wrote: "On most Sansha rats the difference in resistances between em/th is 10% ( that includes cruisers, destroyers, battleships and battle cruisers ). Elite rats have even smaller difference." "Acolyte II damage Modifier: 1.38x Hobgoblin II damage modifier: 1.92x" Is there anything else that goes into the formula for damage output or is this it? (i.e damage multifplier + damage type/resistance) (excluding skills etc) speed and tracking a but, but that's it
Chris Stokes Ashfell Celestial Equilibrium POD-SQUAD 1	Posted - 2012.04.27 13:32:00 - [17] - Quote Tomcio FromFarAway wrote: Chris Stokes wrote: "On most Sansha rats the difference in resistances between em/th is 10% ( that includes cruisers, destroyers, battleships and battle cruisers ). Elite rats have even smaller difference." "Acolyte II damage Modifier: 1.38x Hobgoblin II damage modifier: 1.92x" Is there anything else that does into the formula for damage output or is this it? (i.e damage multifplier + damage type/resistance) (excluding skills etc) It's only about damage mod and rat resists. Drone damage mod is modified by your skills ( CDO, DI, racial spec etc ), ship bonuses and rigs ( for sentry drones ). Another thing you could take into account is travel time but it makes things unnecessarily overcomplicated so it's generally better to ignore it. From my own experience : Thermal drones are usually the best ones. Exp drones ( Minmatar ) seems to be better against Angel Cartel rats. When using sentries : Gardes/Bouncers for closer - mid ranges. Wardens for long range. If you want to check specific rat resistances then this is a very good and up to date site : EveRatStats If you are using drone boat then just load up different drones and see for yourself what type is better for your needs. Cheers - Answers my questions perfectly. Thumbs up!
mxzf Shovel Bros 1414	Posted - 2012.04.27 14:17:00 - [18] - Quote In my experience, all you need are Gal and Min drones. Min for Angels and fast tackle, Gal for everything else. The damage mod on Gal drones makes them outshine Amarr and Cal drones against their respective enemies due to the resist profiles of the rats. Though I have seen a proposal to make Cal drones identical to Gal ones, except the damage type, and Amarr ones the same as Min, except damage type. That's probably the only way the drones would see more even PvP usage.
Kara Books Deal with IT. 118	Posted - 2012.04.27 14:36:00 - [19] - Quote mxzf wrote: In my experience, all you need are Gal and Min drones. Min for Angels and fast tackle, Gal for everything else. The damage mod on Gal drones makes them outshine Amarr and Cal drones against their respective enemies due to the resist profiles of the rats. Though I have seen a proposal to make Cal drones identical to Gal ones, except the damage type, and Amarr ones the same as Min, except damage type. That's probably the only way the drones would see more even PvP usage. Gallante drones seem to show the best DPS numbers and have the right 2ndary damage type for almost all missions but I think Hobgobs are wrong most of the time because when you are shooting an enemy that has bin chosen to shoot with heat damage as a 2ndary damage type, you will infact run into atleast 50% damage resist for heat. Compared to dealing primary damage, you will run into 0 to 30% resist, so chosing a primary damage type is indeed very important. as a previous poster said, when you are given a mission and you notice the mission is against Sansha forces, their resistances to EM damage are closer to zero then to 50, hence Amarr drones will greatly increase efficiency. I mean, its like using Hardeners for specific missions or Certain types of ammo to deal the correct damage, everything adds up and if you do it right you will have far greater DPS then just playing it safe. I believe the Gallante drones are good for 2 situations 1 being PvE, where you dont know what your doing so you play it safe until you formulate a pattarn and but the specific drones to deal the damage type you need to be dealing. 2.PvP, if you think your enemy frigates will not be shiny speed boats like dramiels and the sort, but like rifters or Punishers, this is where you want the most DPS regardless of drone speed or tracking, otherwise in PvP its usually best to play it safe and use mini drones as they are the fastest with a very acceptable tracking speed against everything except a Dramiel or Daredevil with a pilot fitting high grade Halo set. Never the less, iv done a little bit of homework and I may not be as good as 90% of the elite mission runners here, but I know for small and large drones, EM and Kinetic damage should always be on your mind when running missions, I can personally speak for Mini space, Kinetic damage is almost always king, 70% of the time and EM damage is demanded about 20% of the time, Explosive damage takes the other 10%. Medium size drones, I ended up using very rarely and I found using large and small drones to be the most effective for Typhoon and Maelstrom class battleships in Mini space. The final verdict: Gallante small drones are rumored to be better against certain elite frigates, but I personally think, shooting the damage type relevant to the mission will do no less then equal DPS and have more DPS against all the other ships, thereforce Gallante drones are best to use when you are playing it safe or when you are entering a predictable PvP fight.
Kara Books Deal with IT. 118	Posted - 2012.04.27 14:44:00 - [20] - Quote Chris Stokes wrote: "On most Sansha rats the difference in resistances between em/th is 10% ( that includes cruisers, destroyers, battleships and battle cruisers ). Elite rats have even smaller difference." "Acolyte II damage Modifier: 1.38x Hobgoblin II damage modifier: 1.92x" Is there anything else that goes into the formula for damage output or is this it? (i.e damage multifplier + damage type/resistance) (excluding skills etc) Rate of fire, speaking of rate of fire. here are some useful links for you to use as a guide for dealing damage: http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/NPC_Damage_Types http://www.ogrank.com/content/view/698/59/
Kahega Amielden Rifterlings 372	Posted - 2012.04.27 14:45:00 - [21] - Quote In addition to the above, slow (e.g. Gallente) drones have the same problem that blasterboats do in missions. You lose a shitload of DPS waiting for drones to move between targets. Caldari/Minmatar drones are deceptively good by virtue of their speed.
Kara Books Deal with IT. 118	Posted - 2012.04.27 14:57:00 - [22] - Quote Kahega Amielden wrote: In addition to the above, slow (e.g. Gallente) drones have the same problem that blasterboats do in missions. You lose a shitload of DPS waiting for drones to move between targets. Caldari/Minmatar drones are deceptively good by virtue of their speed. Im a big fan of mini drones when it comes to PvP, but that's mostly because im a huge fan of small gangs, you never know when that Dramiel/DareDevil is gonna come by and try to separate some one from a group, every second counts when it comes to frigate warfare.
Hans Momaki State War Academy Caldari State 13	Posted - 2012.04.27 15:20:00 - [23] - Quote Mission specific drones are good if you want to min/max (but be careful with maths here, dmg modifier/target resists are very important). However, Gal drones will get the job done if your not that into min/maxing. Sums up to: If you want all arround, use gal. If you want a bit more it's gal/min.
Krixtal Icefluxor Bison - Ammatar Thunder Thundering Herd 614	Posted - 2012.04.27 15:23:00 - [24] - Quote Again it devolves to "No it's this" and "No it's that". Thread is indeed phail after all. There isn't anything left for you to do to Carebears. -áGo, kill them some more. They're like fungus or bacteria, they won't die and they won't stop. All you have to show for years of organized harassment campaigns against them is ... nothing.
Orlacc Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 132	Posted - 2012.04.27 15:42:00 - [25] - Quote Drones are weapons. Do you HAVE to use rat specific? No.
Fango Mango University of Caille Gallente Federation 39	Posted - 2012.04.27 15:58:00 - [26] - Quote For spreadsheets in space you would have figured that at least one person would have guessed the correct answer . . . The common misconception that Gallente drones are "best" is easily proven wrong by simple spreadsheet maths . . . https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AgRAtwYqOheEdHExYUF6N3RUeFdIdnlKZU1FRGVDSXc -FM Assumptions . . . Using 5 T2 Large Drones Shooting at Battleships with 10K hit points Ship resistances average from http://games.chruker.dk/eve_online/npc_ships.php Distance Drones Travel between Battleships - 30KM Max drone skills Flying a Drone Boat (domi, Ishtar, Gila, Rattler) I did not take into account drone tracking, so the faster drones will deal more damage on average and be better against smaller targets Summary . . . Serpentis/Gurista - Use Wasp II Angel - Use Berserker II Blood/Sansha/Rouge Drone - Praetor II / Ogre II are about a toss up. Praetor II have better tracking and faster speed so they will probably work out better in real life If you are only going to carry one drone type for missions against all types of enemies Ogre II
Zhilia Mann Tide Way Out Productions 447	Posted - 2012.04.27 16:08:00 - [27] - Quote Krixtal Icefluxor wrote: Again it devolves to "No it's this" and "No it's that". Thread is indeed phail after all. Ok, here's some math. Highest mission Sansha resist profile from chruker appears to be .49 EM/.59 thermal. When we take in to account the 1.38 vs. 1.92 damage mod on EM and thermal drones, we do something like this: (1-.49)1.38 = .704 (1-.59)1.92 = .787 Gallente drones come out ahead (by 10%, which is within margin of travel time). On a more typical target for drones (elite frigate, 64/72 split) the paper split is larger, but the math comes out thus: (1-.64)1.38 = .497 (1-.72)1.92 = .538 Gallente drones come out ahead by 7.6%, still within the margin, but still doing better damage. So no, EM drones aren't needed against Sansha rats. Angel non-elite frigates are a different story.
Kara Books Deal with IT. 119	Posted - 2012.04.27 23:56:00 - [28] - Quote Fango Mango wrote: For spreadsheets in space you would have figured that at least one person would have guessed the correct answer . . . The common misconception that Gallente drones are "best" is easily proven wrong by simple spreadsheet maths . . . https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AgRAtwYqOheEdHExYUF6N3RUeFdIdnlKZU1FRGVDSXc -FM Assumptions . . . Using 5 T2 Large Drones Shooting at Battleships with 10K hit points Ship resistances average from http://games.chruker.dk/eve_online/npc_ships.php Distance Drones Travel between Battleships - 30KM Max drone skills Flying a Drone Boat (domi, Ishtar, Gila, Rattler) I did not take into account drone tracking, so the faster drones will deal more damage on average and be better against smaller targets Summary . . . Serpentis/Gurista - Use Wasp II Angel - Use Berserker II Blood/Sansha/Rouge Drone - Praetor II / Ogre II are about a toss up. Praetor II have better tracking and faster speed so they will probably work out better in real life If you are only going to carry one drone type for missions against all types of enemies Ogre II pretty awesome answer, im impressed by the detail, proof and facts to back your opinion up. I will definitely be testing Small mini drones against small Amarr drones and Caldari small drones. Im thinking of another factor, be it not even worth to mention but, when one of my drones starts taking damage, I call it back, the Mini drones may have that added advantage, as they would make it back faster, and the slowest drones would have the biggest disadvantage.
Nicolai Xperte Smoking Hillbillys Solid Foundation 5	Posted - 2012.04.28 01:32:00 - [29] - Quote i usually carry 10 hob II's 10 warrior II's pretty much covers any mission i do. I don't always bring out my Absolution. But when I do it makes the Blue's rage, lol.
Arth Ostus Tax Shield 1	Posted - 2012.04.28 01:41:00 - [30] - Quote Fango Mango wrote: For spreadsheets in space you would have figured that at least one person would have guessed the correct answer . . . The common misconception that Gallente drones are "best" is easily proven wrong by simple spreadsheet maths . . . https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AgRAtwYqOheEdHExYUF6N3RUeFdIdnlKZU1FRGVDSXc -FM Assumptions . . . Using 5 T2 Large Drones Shooting at Battleships with 10K hit points Ship resistances average from http://games.chruker.dk/eve_online/npc_ships.php Distance Drones Travel between Battleships - 30KM Max drone skills Flying a Drone Boat (domi, Ishtar, Gila, Rattler) I did not take into account drone tracking, so the faster drones will deal more damage on average and be better against smaller targets Summary . . . Serpentis/Gurista - Use Wasp II Angel - Use Berserker II Blood/Sansha/Rouge Drone - Praetor II / Ogre II are about a toss up. Praetor II have better tracking and faster speed so they will probably work out better in real life If you are only going to carry one drone type for missions against all types of enemies Ogre II While generally I agree with most of this, it does make some bold assumptions and the real answer is a lot more complicated, there aren't a lot of ships that can take a full compliment of heavy drones, and some need light drones for whatever reason. Personally I think it depends on what you need to drones to do for you. if you are flying a drone boat and they are your primary source of damage, then vs battleship sized targets that spreadsheet works. but caldari battleships for instance are using the drones for frigates and those numbers no longer work out, acolytes would have to travel 56+ kilometers per target to out damage the hobgoblins which is almost never the case unless you are constantly having to recall your drones. I also prefer caldari drones kinetic damage vs serpentis/gallente/caldari/gurista, and minmatar drones for angel/minmatar missions, but for the em thermal there are a lot of conditions that have to be met to use amarr drones over gallente, such distances traveled, and how often I have to recall my drones to avoid losing them. It's almost never justified taking them. There is also a flaw in your tracking assumption about the faster drones tracking better, while they do track better they also contribute more self-tranversal because of their faster orbit speeds than the slower drones, and it just about evens out. There is one exception. The infiltrator II is a special case, it has the slowest orbit speed out of all the medium drones, this gives it by far the best tracking ability. WIth drone tracking mods they out damage hobgoblin II's and hammerhead II's vs frigate sized targets, because of their higher base damage over the hobgoblins, and because of the superior tracking and contributing less self-transversal over the hammerheads. The tracking mod is still required to get them to hit frigates reliably to out damage the hobgoblins. So taking them for this purpose is highly situational... i'm talking you only have a 50m3 drone bay and you want something that can take on both cruisers and frigates reliably. The lvl4 part 1 of 5 Pot and Kettle comes to mind....
stoicfaux 980	Posted - 2012.04.28 02:50:00 - [31] - Quote It's hard to go wrong with thermal drones for the previously stated reasons. Only "exceptions" are kinetic drones against Guristas, which do a little bit more damage than thermal drones with the added benefit of being faster and having a bigger shield (shields regen and there's less chance of armor damage to kinetic drones.) The other exception is using thermal light drones against Angel frigates. The elite Angel Viper and Angel Webifier (which scram and web) are weakest to thermal damage. However, if you're sending your medium drones against Angel cruisers, than I would use explosive drones. You can tell me what is and isn't Truth when you pry the tinfoil from my cold, lifeless head.
Fronkfurter McSheebleton Squirrel Horde Habitat Against Humanity 84	Posted - 2012.04.28 03:16:00 - [32] - Quote in laymens terms, for people who fail at maths: Sansha resists against therm are typically only 5-10% higher than against EM. Thermal drones do about 40% more dps than EM. Similar story against other types.
Verity Sovereign Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 168	Posted - 2012.04.28 11:38:00 - [33] - Quote There have been many posts about how there appears to be a progression among drones between speeds, tracking, damage, etc, but that it seems someone swapped the EM drone damage modifier with the Exp drone modifier. The result: acolytes are slower and do less damage with less tracking than warriors. Acolytes(and the other non-sentry EM drones) are pretty much the shittiest drone type. That leaves the Kin, The, and Exp as the possibly valid drones. The Kin and The drones seem to perform fairly similar in my opinion, when its better to do kin damage, thermal is often the 2nd one on the list, and since they have a higher damage modifier, its usually a wash. When Its Exp then Kin you want to do, the Exp drones "higher than it should be" damage mod, combined with speed, makes them the drones of choice. Against Sansha/BR/ EM weak foes (with Thermal as their next weakness), Use thermal drones Against Guristas/Serpentis/ Kin weak (with Thermal as secondary) - doesn't matter, use thermal or Kin drones Against Angels/ Exp Weak foes, use Exp drones Since one type of foe has Therm as the clear winner, and another has therm drones equal with Kin, you might as well jsut carry therm. Against Exp weak/Angels, use Exp drones, in general you only need Thermal and Explosive drones.

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