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Cadet Seaton Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2009.03.09 20:59:00 - [1] Seriously, something has to be done about Falcons because it has the biggest presence in 99% of the gangs you see nowadays. No one goes out without atleast 5 Falcons. NJICE GAME!
LegendInMyOwnMind	Posted - 2009.03.09 21:02:00 - [2] Yes, unfortunately, whenever you think about including another recon for support, you can only come to the conclusion that the falcon just is superior. For solo work other recons can be better, but for almost all gang work, queue up the falcons.
Mylinn Funi Flipping Ninjas	Posted - 2009.03.09 21:04:00 - [3] Edited by: Mylinn Funi on 09/03/2009 21:05:13 Share your irritation. Overpowered jamming ability and ****e eccm is seriously messing up solo to mid size gang pvp.
Elyse Schwartz	Posted - 2009.03.09 21:08:00 - [4] Originally by: Mylinn Funi Edited by: Mylinn Funi on 09/03/2009 21:05:13 Share your irritation. Overpowered jamming ability and ****e eccm is seriously messing up solo to mid size gang pvp. Just think how amazing a 1000 falcon fleet would be.
Coriander Rinne Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2009.03.09 21:10:00 - [5] it's true, a falcon killed my corp's mothership fleet the other day and then it rescued a kitty out of a tree. AND THEN ATED THE KITTY. DAT'S TOO FAR MR FLACON
LegendInMyOwnMind	Posted - 2009.03.09 21:11:00 - [6] Originally by: Elyse Schwartz Just think how amazing a 1000 falcon fleet would be. The fact that falcon's cant perform all tasks better than any other ship says nothing about whether or not it is overpowered. The problem with the falcon is that it is flat out superior to all other recons for gang support. This is quite silly. No other ship is so superior to its counterparts in this way.
Liang Nuren No Salvation Blackguard Coalition	Posted - 2009.03.09 21:19:00 - [7] Originally by: LegendInMyOwnMind Originally by: Elyse Schwartz Just think how amazing a 1000 falcon fleet would be. The fact that falcon's cant perform all tasks better than any other ship says nothing about whether or not it is overpowered. The problem with the falcon is that it is flat out superior to all other recons for gang support. This is quite silly. No other ship is so superior to its counterparts in this way. The problem here is that the other recons obviously need help. Maybe make the Arazu/Lach get another 5% dampening power per level and the Huginn/Rapier get a web strength bonus, and the Pilgrim gets a cargo hold expansion per level.... :) Did the AB'ing Pilgrim of Doom ever materialize after QR btw? -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org
But Sects	Posted - 2009.03.09 21:27:00 - [8] E C C M
Elyse Schwartz	Posted - 2009.03.09 21:43:00 - [9] Originally by: But Sects ECCM Everyone here knows that ECCMs are great, making you virtually immune to the effects of ECM as well as providing a bonus to your ship when up against ships which don't possess ECM. The one thing that has always confused me is if ECCM's suffer a stacking penalty why don't ECMs? In fact as far as I can tell the only things which don't suffer any sort of stacking penalty are high slot items, shield boosters, armor reppers, and ECMs.
Constantine Arcanum IMPERIAL SENATE	Posted - 2009.03.09 21:50:00 - [10] Edited by: Constantine Arcanum on 09/03/2009 21:50:35
LegendInMyOwnMind	Posted - 2009.03.09 21:54:00 - [11] Originally by: Liang Nuren The problem here is that the other recons obviously need help. Maybe make the Arazu/Lach get another 5% dampening power per level and the Huginn/Rapier get a web strength bonus, and the Pilgrim gets a cargo hold expansion per level.... :) Did the AB'ing Pilgrim of Doom ever materialize after QR btw? -Liang No, for the other recons to be buffed to the falcons level, the curse would have to be able to completely neut a ships cap from 200km. That is not the solution. The falcon needs to be nerfed.
But Sects	Posted - 2009.03.09 21:54:00 - [12] Originally by: Elyse Schwartz Originally by: But Sects ECCM Everyone here knows that ECCMs are great, making you virtually immune to the effects of ECM as well as providing a bonus to your ship when up against ships which don't possess ECM. The one thing that has always confused me is if ECCM's suffer a stacking penalty why don't ECMs? In fact as far as I can tell the only things which don't suffer any sort of stacking penalty are high slot items, shield boosters, armor reppers, and ECMs. Ok I'm going to assume your reasonably intelligent, and your using sarcasm here. First off, no, ECCM does not make you 'virtually immune' to ECM, and it shouldn't. Nothing in eve makes you completely immune to something else. But it does help. And why does it matter if ECCM doesn't help against non ecm opponents? If falcons are the HUGE problem that everyone on these forums seems to think, then wouldn't it make it worth it to fit ECCM anyway? Even if it doesn't help you do other things? People whine about ECM, when presented with a counter, ECCM, they claim it doesn't help with non-ecm situations. Read that a few times and see if it makes sense. As for the stacking penalty, ECM is chance based. Its the only thing that is, and it throws everyone's puny brains for a loop. It would be dumb to apply stacking penalty to something that is already chance based.
LegendInMyOwnMind	Posted - 2009.03.09 22:04:00 - [13] Originally by: But Sects First off, no, ECCM does not make you 'virtually immune' to ECM, and it shouldn't. Nothing in eve makes you completely immune to something else. But it does help. And why does it matter if ECCM doesn't help against non ecm opponents? If falcons are the HUGE problem that everyone on these forums seems to think, then wouldn't it make it worth it to fit ECCM anyway? The problem is that very few ships have an extra midslot it can simply "throw away". No other ship threat requires every single ship in the opposing gang to fit a module that does NOTHING but help against one specific ship. Sensor boosters help even if you arent damped. Cap boosters help even if you arent getting neuted. ECCM does nothing at all, a complete waste unless you get targetted by a falcon, and is required on every ship in your gang. Yet suppose that giving up that midslot was possible. It still wouldn't be a viable solution, as ECCM, being percentage based, helps cruisers and smaller ships hardly at all. Falcon's need a nerf. No ship should be able to disrupt enemies as effectively as it can, while also being virtually immune to any counterthreat.
Forumz Warrior	Posted - 2009.03.09 22:04:00 - [14] This topic again. Yes Falcons need a nerf and/or ECCM needs to be boosted. A bit of both is probably appropriate. For example, I recently got in a fight in my domi w/ a mid and a low slot ECCM, both overloaded. Falcon jammed me 7 out of 8 cycles. No, clearly there's nothing wrong. And this coming from someone with a maxed Falcon alt. They are the un-fun of EVE and they need to be changed. Coming up with a reasonable solution is the hard part.
Gneeznow North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.03.09 22:06:00 - [15] Originally by: But Sects E C C M 74 sensor strength, 2x ECCM, was jammed with ease 3 cycles in a row, the falcon never missed a jam, had a similar repeat the following day in the same ishtar, falcon jammed me with ease for 2 cycles enough for his frighter to warp out FALCONS ARE BROKEN cue the achura falcon defence squad to this thread to feverently try to defend it
LegendInMyOwnMind	Posted - 2009.03.09 22:11:00 - [16] Originally by: Forumz Warrior Coming up with a reasonable solution is the hard part. Indeed, that is the difficult part. Boosting ECCM would be hard to balance, as even if it gave you 100% immunity, it would often be prohibitive to fit it on many ships. Many ships simply do not have spare midslots. The best way imo would be to buff the ECCM amount, giving it both a % bonus and a static bonus so that they would be better on smaller ships. Then, give it some other bonus that would make it not a complete wasted slot if you arent jammed. Heck, make it like a PDU or something, with a few bonuses to several things. Instead of this, you could give the falcon range bonus to the rook (ala curse/pilgrim) and see how that works out. A buff to falcon and rook damage would be good in this case also.
Kesper North Caldari Epiphyte Mining and Exploration Majesta Empire	Posted - 2009.03.09 22:15:00 - [17] Originally by: LegendInMyOwnMind No, for the other recons to be buffed to the falcons level, the curse would have to be able to completely neut a ships cap from 200km. Pardon me, I need to change my underwear now. I just envisioned a Curse surrounded by Rokhs, neuting enemy nanoships and sniping them out of the sky... It may not be a solution but man, is it ever sexy.
Imaos	Posted - 2009.03.09 22:18:00 - [18] Originally by: Gneeznow 74 sensor strength, 2x ECCM, was jammed with ease 3 cycles in a row, the falcon never missed a jam, had a similar repeat the following day in the same ishtar, falcon jammed me with ease for 2 cycles enough for his frighter to warp out FALCONS ARE BROKEN cue the achura falcon defence squad to this thread to feverently try to defend it Ok. You went solo against a falcon and wonder why he was able to get enough jams to let a freighter warp away? Or did you leave something out? One ECCM makes him use double as many ECM modules on you. One more ECCm and he needs even more ECM modules on you. If you are alone he has the spares. ECCM matters if you arent alone as it shifts from jamming a few of the gang to needs all jammers for a single target. So ECCM works. It just doesnt work if it is an alt providing a dedicated defense against a solo attacker. Anyway, please give a bigger bonus to damp dedicated ships. Imaos ------------------------------------------ Originally by: NoNah My friend, this is EVE, as it's a space oriented game, they couldn't have trolls. We have Caldari.
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. Dara Cothrom	Posted - 2009.03.09 22:21:00 - [19] Wow, another NPC alt posting a lame falcon troll. What a surprise... Oh well, check the expansion patch notes to see if CCP were persuaded, eh? Ohhhh... ...maybe next time. Keep on alt-trolling, mate. It's bound to work eventually, and it's easier than actually trying to adapt your tactics and fits.
LegendInMyOwnMind	Posted - 2009.03.09 22:23:00 - [20] Originally by: Malcanis ...maybe next time. Keep on alt-trolling, mate. It's bound to work eventually, and it's easier than actually trying to adapt your tactics and fits. Nice arguments. You definitely showed that Falcon's are balanced and fine as is. Thank you for your contribution to this thread.
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. Dara Cothrom	Posted - 2009.03.09 22:23:00 - [21] Originally by: Gneeznow Originally by: But Sects E C C M 74 sensor strength, 2x ECCM, was jammed with ease 3 cycles in a row, the falcon never missed a jam, had a similar repeat the following day in the same ishtar, falcon jammed me with ease for 2 cycles enough for his frighter to warp out FALCONS ARE BROKEN cue the achura falcon defence squad to this thread to feverently try to defend it You couldn't bump a freighter? Or did the Falcon jam your MWD as well?
Imaos	Posted - 2009.03.09 22:23:00 - [22] Originally by: LegendInMyOwnMind Instead of this, you could give the falcon range bonus to the rook (ala curse/pilgrim) and see how that works out. A buff to falcon and rook damage would be good in this case also. The rook already has the same boni as the falcon with one exception and it sin't the range bonus: Rook has a kinetic damage bonus and the falcon has the cloak cpu bonus. The problem is that they are one trick ponies. They focus on ECM and you can't use them for anything else. Reducing the jam strength of the falcon could help, but would still be frustrating for people who try to catch a ship with falcon helper solo. Imaos ------------------------------------------ Originally by: NoNah My friend, this is EVE, as it's a space oriented game, they couldn't have trolls. We have Caldari.
Gneeznow North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.03.09 22:25:00 - [23] Originally by: Malcanis You couldn't bump a freighter? Or did the Falcon jam your MWD as well? nice attempt to derail bro
Imaos	Posted - 2009.03.09 22:29:00 - [24] Originally by: LegendInMyOwnMind Originally by: Malcanis ...maybe next time. Keep on alt-trolling, mate. It's bound to work eventually, and it's easier than actually trying to adapt your tactics and fits. Nice arguments. You definitely showed that Falcon's are balanced and fine as is. Thank you for your contribution to this thread. The only real problem I see with the falcon is that it makes the rook obsolete. The damage bonus is a joke at the range the ecm can operate at. Both rook and falcon are balanced to the other recons as the cant do anything else. No tackle, no damage, chance based tank. The problem is that specialists are better in most cases than allrounder. Imaos ------------------------------------------ Originally by: NoNah My friend, this is EVE, as it's a space oriented game, they couldn't have trolls. We have Caldari.
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. Dara Cothrom	Posted - 2009.03.09 22:31:00 - [25] Edited by: Malcanis on 09/03/2009 22:34:30 Originally by: LegendInMyOwnMind Originally by: Malcanis ...maybe next time. Keep on alt-trolling, mate. It's bound to work eventually, and it's easier than actually trying to adapt your tactics and fits. Nice arguments. You definitely showed that Falcon's are balanced and fine as is. Thank you for your contribution to this thread. Why on earth should I? I've posted my arguments repeatedly and at length, and I decline to be trolled by an obvious alt into doing so all over again - especially when he offers no arguments of his own. In fact he's hardly even bothered to tell the usual lies. Just a bald, unsupported assertion and one made-up statistic: so I answered in kind. My personal suspicion is that they're trying to think up a complete rework of ECM, and they're just leaving it alone until it's ready. That's fine by me. What it comes down in the end to is that CCP aren't convinced that there's a problem severe enough to merit a change. SO: adapt or die, I reckon. EDIT: Come to think of it, I rather suspect he's your alt, since he's only posted once, and you'r answering on his behalf. Always a sign of a good argument, that.
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. Dara Cothrom	Posted - 2009.03.09 22:33:00 - [26] Edited by: Malcanis on 09/03/2009 22:35:56 Originally by: Gneeznow Edited by: Gneeznow on 09/03/2009 22:30:06 Originally by: Malcanis You couldn't bump a freighter? Or did the Falcon jam your MWD as well? nice attempt to derail bro edit: I'm going to take a wild guess here looking at your race and corp and say that you're totally NOT a dedicated falcon pilot with a vested interest in the future of the ship ..... or maybe you are I'm going to take a wild guess here and say that I'm in a good position to evaluate the more hysterical claims made about Falcons with, you know, personal experience. And maths. EDIT: Nice derail yourself. So you couldn't bump a freighter?
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. Dara Cothrom	Posted - 2009.03.09 22:38:00 - [27] Look people, answer these 2 questions. (1) Is the Arazu a good ship right now? (2) If Falcons were completely removed from the game, would the Arazu be any better in any way whatsoever?
LegendInMyOwnMind	Posted - 2009.03.09 22:42:00 - [28] Originally by: Malcanis EDIT: Come to think of it, I rather suspect he's your alt, since he's only posted once, and you'r answering on his behalf. Always a sign of a good argument, that. Oh look, another way to ignore my arguments. Nice job! Btw, any good arguments made below this post against Falcons by alts are probably mine also. Only the good arguments though.
The Tzar Malicious Intentions The Church.	Posted - 2009.03.09 22:49:00 - [29] When you're jammed you can still tank, MWD, warp away and drones via auto-agression. When you are scrammed and damped you may lose lock you definately wont be warping or going anywhere fast. When you are neuted you can't do anywthing accept slowboat, missile or projectile. Three statements, three recons..., I think I'd prefer to have the first one on me over the others... __________________________________________ 'Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear intelligent until they speak' __________________________________________
LegendInMyOwnMind	Posted - 2009.03.09 22:50:00 - [30] Originally by: Malcanis (1) Is the Arazu a good ship right now? The Arazu has a place in small gangs yes. The problem is, its role, disruption, is completely overshadowed by the falcon. You will just always prefer a falcon. Originally by: Malcanis (2) If Falcons were completely removed from the game, would the Arazu be any better in any way whatsoever? It would be used more often yes. No doubt about it. Now I still believe the Arazu needs a buff regardless, but its really hard to say when the Falcon is so flatly superior that almost no one flys the Arazu.

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