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Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics
K162
3
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Posted - 2011.09.14 12:12:00 -
[1] - Quote
TL:DR? Balancing is Hard, Follow this Simple Steps.
1) Communication.
We're at a point now in which CSM members have reduced noise and have produced tools that clearly identify issues which need to be dealt with. We all know what the major problems are, some of us have ideas on how to fix them, however during the actual process of testing, communication ceases. It is like devs have decided on a solution, released onto the test server and if there are no thread-noughts, changes go live. Now I can appreciate just how time consuming and difficult good communication can be - I also understand that the noise to nuggets ratio on these types of forums can be poor or vested interests can skew the tenor of the feedback... But when prompted to give feedback on specifics, whether it be fittings, performance vs specific ship classes - accuracy and noise is greatly improved. If anything, leaving us with the feeling we positively affected the ships design, will improve pilot satisfaction.
2) Help us test. Help us test better.
One of the most worrying things about Tech 3's is how none of the subsystems with the stats and bonuses that made it live to TQ, where ever available for testing on SiSi. What you and I tested, several weeks before Apocrypha went live were different to what is on TQ right now. IF CCP VALUE PLAYER TESTING THIS CAN NEVER HAPPEN AGAIN.
In addition, if the process of player testing is valued, it should be better directed. If there are specific things or specific ways you would like us to test ships, let us know.
3) There is an order in which things need to be done.
At the moment, the schedule for balancing seems to be thus:
Pick which problems seem to be the smallest, then sort by which ones the players have the biggest beef with. I understand that until the CCP allocates more resources into unimportant things like this, Team BFF's methodology will have to do... I guess that logistics warp speed boost and Draimiel speed nerfs are quick, unirreversible wins... (Although there's a very strong case (based on usage, fleet compositions) that frigate and destroyers (all meta levels) speeds should be raised by 1-2kms w/ MWD with ships like the dramiel and sabre receiving the least boosts.)
HOWEVER.
Eve ship balance suffers from several existential problems, chief among them, blobs, and the role of active tanking. Without looking at active tanking and fleet sizes, I don't think Gallente can be satisfactorily dealt with, I fear dreads will continue to have a marginal role and that a play style, battered by the prevalence of cap warfare will fade away into the history books.
Ship Tiers is another problem that is most acute with Battlecruisers and cruisers where lower tier ships are completely pointless after the first few hours/days of skill training.
Addressing those problems before attempting to solve racial issues will probably save a lot of time.
4) Provide solutions that track emergent game play.
The Tempest Fleet Issue is a good example of a balance change that went completely against the grain of how players where flying certain ships. At the time on the test server, the preference was for passive tanking fits with damage mods and tracking comps in the lows maximising the turrets performance and ships speed/agility. What did the CCP do? Switched Shield and Armour HP even though minmatar ships had shield favourable EM resists, and provided the fleet tempest with the same slot layout as the Mach, minus turrets, drones, HP, speed, agility etc etc.
Is the Fleet Tempest better than the Tempest? Probably, is it worth flying? No.
Not only were the roles and niche similarities with breached by slot layouts, it just wasn't congruent with the way the ship was used.
It's a problem because it does not seem like this is in any way important when making balancing decisions. Things like Art Direction (in relation to Myrmidon or Eos losing drones instead of turrets, or the Naglfar) seem to rank higher than something that in the end usually pays dividends for pilot satisfaction and ship usage down the line. This should simply not be the case.
Track how players are using your ships. I'm sure you must have your own internal metrics for seeing how ships are used most and how they are fit, I think (hope?) that you still also play the game competitively and have a solid handle on what is going on, but if you don't, ask, go on eve-kill/battleclinic, view the statistics, see what gets blown up the most and what doesn't. Ideally, having a balance team that spotted issued before the RABBLE should be the goal.
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Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics
K162
3
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Posted - 2011.09.14 12:13:00 -
[2] - Quote
5) Roles and Niche size > *Balance*.
There's a misconception that focuses on specific stats and the 1-2% difference between one ship and another in performance. The reality is, putting aside the soup of stats, cost and whatever racial preferences you have - if two ships do exactly the same things, without the same stats, one will be preferred over the other by the majority of players.
Another thing to consider is that if two ships do the same thing equally well, but if one of those ships does another thing well then that ship will be preferred other the other, by the majority.
A ships role is important, the size of its role (in terms of the environments in which it can be used, in relation to its racial counter parts) is important. It's a problem affecting T1 cruisers and frigs the most, were as the super carriers have dominated the landscape due to their wholly unnecessarily proficiency for killing most things. (The argument for) Tiericide and Active tanking bonus verses resistance bonuses are also good examples (ie: resistance bonus = proficiency in 3 areas, active, EHP, and RR, vs active tanking bonus only good for one).
6) Ebb and Flow.
No one should be under any illusion that there is a solid state that one should strive towards. Eve has been and should continue to be an environment that shifts and evolves over time with new weapons, ships and other mechanics creating a disruptive, and refreshing stimulusesGÇÖ to the Eve environment. Power creep shouldnGÇÖt be avoided, and not all ships can be as useful all the time, but balance cycles 2 years are not healthy. Competitive players thrive on figuring things out before others, creating new fits and new tactics, deploying them and seeing if they work. When they do, FOTMGÇÖs are born. Without this process being periodically reset, eve dies a slow and cold death.
Beyond that, make ships interesting to fit, and fun to fly whilst tossing in a few new ships/game mechanics once in a while and FiS should continue to provide excellent Pilot SatisfactionGǪ
yeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
Comments?
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Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics
K162
3
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Posted - 2011.09.14 20:05:00 -
[3] - Quote
I guess more posts are getting chewed up by the new forum tech than i first thought...
Pilot Satisfaction
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New Ships |
Gallion
GALACTIC GUARDIAN KNIGHTS
V.A.S.T.
253
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Posted - 2011.09.14 20:33:00 -
[4] - Quote
have you considered giving your "postS" to a CSM member Directly?
This is a Signature, It makes people Stare. (Man I gotta Make one , or Find one to steal) |
Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics
K162
5
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Posted - 2011.09.14 23:20:00 -
[5] - Quote
Gallion wrote:have you considered giving your "postS" to a CSM member Directly?
Done.
Though this is as much for the player base, as it is for the devs.
Made a few corrections/additions.
Pilot Satisfaction
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New Ships |
MeBiatch
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
20
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Posted - 2011.09.14 23:26:00 -
[6] - Quote
good read and supported +1
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Two step
Aperture Harmonics
K162
142
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Posted - 2011.09.15 01:50:00 -
[7] - Quote
I approve of this message, and will be pointing the appropriate devs to this thread.
CSM 6 Alternate Delegate
@two_step_eve on Twitter
My Blog
What does CSM 6 do? |
van Uber
Swedish Aerospace Inc
The Kadeshi
0
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Posted - 2011.09.15 06:52:00 -
[8] - Quote
Nice assesment Pattern. Thumbs up. |
Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics
12
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Posted - 2011.09.16 16:31:00 -
[9] - Quote
van Uber wrote:Nice assesment Pattern. Thumbs up.
Thanks...
Comments, disagreements or things I've missed?
Ex CSM member and Designer of the Tornado. -á
Pilot satisfaction --áNew Ships |
Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics
18
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Posted - 2011.09.19 12:34:00 -
[10] - Quote
Sprays anti-freeze on topic.
Ex CSM member and Designer of the Tornado. -á
Pilot satisfaction --áNew Ships |
Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics
103
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Posted - 2011.10.05 18:13:00 -
[11] - Quote
Also bumping
Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado.
Gallente - Pilot satisfaction |
schurem
Anarchy Inc.
3
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Posted - 2011.10.07 11:51:00 -
[12] - Quote
you make good points. if only ccp were in a position to respond to them favourably... |
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CCP Tallest
C C P
C C P Alliance
73
|
Posted - 2011.10.11 16:01:00 -
[13] - Quote
Did someone say my name?
Good post. Would read again.
Pattern is a pretty cool guy. he posts sensibly about balancing and doesnGÇÖt afraid of anything. |
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Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
44
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Posted - 2011.10.11 16:30:00 -
[14] - Quote
I like Pattern, he at least makes me look in more directions than I originally knew about every time he comments on any of my FnI suggestions. |
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
8
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Posted - 2011.10.11 16:30:00 -
[15] - Quote
wall of text from a cheater guy.
didnt read |
Cedric deBouilard
PonyWaffe
Test Alliance Please Ignore
40
|
Posted - 2011.10.11 16:35:00 -
[16] - Quote
solid ideas, cool presentation.
+1 and good job. |
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
44
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Posted - 2011.10.11 16:36:00 -
[17] - Quote
Robert Caldera wrote:wall of text from a cheater guy.
didnt read
He doesnt cheat, he just knows where all the cards in the deck are. |
Solinuas
Beyond Evil and Good
4
|
Posted - 2011.10.11 18:30:00 -
[18] - Quote
this thread gets a Solinuas stamp of approval, the most illustrious reward in the known universe! |
Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics
139
|
Posted - 2011.10.11 20:45:00 -
[19] - Quote
Robert Caldera wrote:wall of text from a cheater guy.
didnt read
No
CCP Tallest wrote:Did someone say my name?
Good post. Would read again.
Pattern is a pretty cool guy. he posts sensibly about balancing and doesnGÇÖt afraid of anything.
Thanks for taking the time to read it 
Good start so far on capital balancing btw
Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado.
Gallente - Pilot satisfaction |
Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics
159
|
Posted - 2011.10.16 01:43:00 -
[20] - Quote
Bump
Also - vote: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=153934&
Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado.
Gallente - Pilot satisfaction |
MeBiatch
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
50
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Posted - 2011.10.16 06:00:00 -
[21] - Quote
CCP Tallest wrote:Did someone say my name?
Good post. Would read again.
Pattern is a pretty cool guy. he posts sensibly about balancing and doesnGÇÖt afraid of anything.
say what are the chances you are going to comment on your ideas for hybrid boost?
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Wacktopia
Sicarius.
Legion of The Damned.
12
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Posted - 2011.10.16 12:16:00 -
[22] - Quote
Good post. Says a lot of important things about consideration for 'balance' which really hit home.
Its always worth remembering that even 'sub-par' races will have some tricks up their sleeves.... the 'Kessah' Domi, the uber-buffer Proteus, Tri-rep myrm, Shield-perion etc.  |
Zarak1 Kenpach1
Aperture Harmonics
K162
10
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Posted - 2011.11.19 20:27:00 -
[23] - Quote
bump |
Apollo Gabriel
Mercatoris
Etherium Cartel
261
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Posted - 2011.11.19 21:20:00 -
[24] - Quote
Thank you Tallest for POSTING IN F&I!
Let us eat cake! -áI mean open containers in corp hangers please ...
Let us stack all modules (eliminate repackaging), except damaged ones, give them a red hue/icon.
Let us see damaged drones in our drone bay!
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