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Shadowsword
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Posted - 2004.08.19 09:07:00 -
[121]
 Originally by: Zarquon Beeblebrox
Just add the same penalty for armour repairs as it is for shield repairs in power diags and cap power relays.
This is the base of the problem. a armour tanker can have a good cap recharge with out any penalties to the armour repairs. Shield tankers can not.
/me sigh
However much you debunk some ideas, they keep coming back 
FYI, I tested a shield tanked Raven and an armor tanked Megathron, both with MWD and one damage mod, cap rechargers and cap relays and power diags, and what do it show?
The megathron recharge it's cap a little faster, but it's cap reserve is lower than the Raven's. They have almost exactly the same cap/sec regeneration rate
Now I'm sure than in 2-3 hours someone will still say that armor tanked have a good cap recharge and shield tanks doesn't.
And about the fact that armor tanking is more cap efficient than shield tanking, it's true, read the first post of the second page to know why.
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Shadowsword
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Posted - 2004.08.19 09:07:00 -
[122]
Originally by: Zarquon Beeblebrox
Just add the same penalty for armour repairs as it is for shield repairs in power diags and cap power relays.
This is the base of the problem. a armour tanker can have a good cap recharge with out any penalties to the armour repairs. Shield tankers can not.
/me sigh
However much you debunk some ideas, they keep coming back
FYI, I tested a shield tanked Raven and an armor tanked Megathron, both with MWD and one damage mod, cap rechargers and cap relays and power diags, and what do it show?
The megathron recharge it's cap a little faster, but it's cap reserve is lower than the Raven's. They have almost exactly the same cap/sec regeneration rate
Now I'm sure than in 2-3 hours someone will still say that armor tanked have a good cap recharge and shield tanks doesn't.
And about the fact that armor tanking is more cap efficient than shield tanking, it's true, read the first post of the second page to know why.
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onardian
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Posted - 2004.08.19 10:32:00 -
[123]
Damage dealer Megathron with some armor tanking vs
1) 2 Kinetic 1 thermal Hardened, 2 Large Repairer 8 Pulses Apoc, every other slot was allocated to cap enhancement. Apoc pilot cap skills 5/5. Repair systems level 4.
2) Various Raven loadouts Tanked vs Kinetic & Thermal with varying low slots and cap enhancing meds, as pilot was not the same. Pilot cap skills unknown... names were Veantur and Tank CEO.
Mega vs Apoc had 5 fights. Apoc lost all 5.
Mega vs Raven 3 fights. Ravens lost all 3.
Mega was cap boosting. Cap boosters needed vs Apoc fight 3-4. Cap boosters needed vs Ravens 8-9.
Apoc cap levels when it died : 30-40% for all fights.
Raven cap levels when it died: 0% for all fights.
Conclusion: A shield tanker fares better vs Damage dealers then Armor tankers do. Reason being the Armor Tanker cannot keep up with the damage being dealt regardless of the fact his cap is holding. On the other hand a Shield tanker can keep up with most of the damage, has the luxury to let damage sip to armour, and will only die once his cap has been drained entirely, which takes way longer.
The fact that Armor Tanking is more efficient cap wise doesn't imbalance it. The activation delay is more crucial than people understand.
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onardian
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Posted - 2004.08.19 10:32:00 -
[124]
Damage dealer Megathron with some armor tanking vs
1) 2 Kinetic 1 thermal Hardened, 2 Large Repairer 8 Pulses Apoc, every other slot was allocated to cap enhancement. Apoc pilot cap skills 5/5. Repair systems level 4.
2) Various Raven loadouts Tanked vs Kinetic & Thermal with varying low slots and cap enhancing meds, as pilot was not the same. Pilot cap skills unknown... names were Veantur and Tank CEO.
Mega vs Apoc had 5 fights. Apoc lost all 5.
Mega vs Raven 3 fights. Ravens lost all 3.
Mega was cap boosting. Cap boosters needed vs Apoc fight 3-4. Cap boosters needed vs Ravens 8-9.
Apoc cap levels when it died : 30-40% for all fights.
Raven cap levels when it died: 0% for all fights.
Conclusion: A shield tanker fares better vs Damage dealers then Armor tankers do. Reason being the Armor Tanker cannot keep up with the damage being dealt regardless of the fact his cap is holding. On the other hand a Shield tanker can keep up with most of the damage, has the luxury to let damage sip to armour, and will only die once his cap has been drained entirely, which takes way longer.
The fact that Armor Tanking is more efficient cap wise doesn't imbalance it. The activation delay is more crucial than people understand.
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Nafri
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Posted - 2004.08.19 10:44:00 -
[125]
at which range you start guys? normally you already in megathrons armor if he mwds towards you from 20km +
Wanna fly with me?
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Nafri
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Posted - 2004.08.19 10:44:00 -
[126]
at which range you start guys? normally you already in megathrons armor if he mwds towards you from 20km +
Wanna fly with me?
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onardian
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Posted - 2004.08.19 11:05:00 -
[127]
Originally by: Nafri
at which range you start guys? normally you already in megathrons armor if he mwds towards you from 20km +
Starting Range was 20-25km for all fights vs Apoc.
Starting Range was 30km for 1st out of 3 Raven fights. 20km for the other 2.
P.S. Megathron was using 2 Med Sbombs in all 8 fights, otherwise it would have lost Vs Raven everytime.
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onardian
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Posted - 2004.08.19 11:05:00 -
[128]
Originally by: Nafri
at which range you start guys? normally you already in megathrons armor if he mwds towards you from 20km +
Starting Range was 20-25km for all fights vs Apoc.
Starting Range was 30km for 1st out of 3 Raven fights. 20km for the other 2.
P.S. Megathron was using 2 Med Sbombs in all 8 fights, otherwise it would have lost Vs Raven everytime.
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Glyphe Temare
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Posted - 2004.08.20 04:10:00 -
[129]
Edited by: Glyphe Temare on 20/08/2004 04:12:08
Edited by: Glyphe Temare on 20/08/2004 04:11:19
Quote:
And about the fact that armor tanking is more cap efficient than shield tanking, it's true, read the first post of the second page to know why.
Could it be that someone finally saw the light?
On another note... any damage dealer will kill a tank, any tank. Doesn't matter if that damage dealer is armor or shield tanking. ( Assuming efficient smart setups on both sides )
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Glyphe Temare
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Posted - 2004.08.20 04:10:00 -
[130]
Edited by: Glyphe Temare on 20/08/2004 04:12:08
Edited by: Glyphe Temare on 20/08/2004 04:11:19
Quote:
And about the fact that armor tanking is more cap efficient than shield tanking, it's true, read the first post of the second page to know why.
Could it be that someone finally saw the light?
On another note... any damage dealer will kill a tank, any tank. Doesn't matter if that damage dealer is armor or shield tanking. ( Assuming efficient smart setups on both sides )
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YuuKnow
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Posted - 2004.08.20 04:21:00 -
[131]
Edited by: YuuKnow on 20/08/2004 04:25:30
Edited by: YuuKnow on 20/08/2004 04:23:31
Originally by: onardian
Originally by: Nafri
at which range you start guys? normally you already in megathrons armor if he mwds towards you from 20km +
Starting Range was 20-25km for all fights vs Apoc.
Starting Range was 30km for 1st out of 3 Raven fights. 20km for the other 2.
P.S. Megathron was using 2 Med Sbombs in all 8 fights, otherwise it would have lost Vs Raven everytime.
Its also important to know if any named stuff is used. and what was the repairer skills of the armor tank. As well as which shield hardeners were used by the shield tank (some pilots equip kinetic, some don't)
A armor tank at repairer 5 will do more repair/second than a shield+amp. If the pilot was a noob, then the armor repairers are inferior to the shield tank.
yk
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YuuKnow
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Posted - 2004.08.20 04:21:00 -
[132]
Edited by: YuuKnow on 20/08/2004 04:25:30
Edited by: YuuKnow on 20/08/2004 04:23:31
Originally by: onardian
Originally by: Nafri
at which range you start guys? normally you already in megathrons armor if he mwds towards you from 20km +
Starting Range was 20-25km for all fights vs Apoc.
Starting Range was 30km for 1st out of 3 Raven fights. 20km for the other 2.
P.S. Megathron was using 2 Med Sbombs in all 8 fights, otherwise it would have lost Vs Raven everytime.
Its also important to know if any named stuff is used. and what was the repairer skills of the armor tank. As well as which shield hardeners were used by the shield tank (some pilots equip kinetic, some don't)
A armor tank at repairer 5 will do more repair/second than a shield+amp. If the pilot was a noob, then the armor repairers are inferior to the shield tank.
yk
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Ca0 Ca0
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Posted - 2004.08.20 16:18:00 -
[133]
How many times need it be said ONE VS ONE DOES NOT MATTER . . . and try fitting some defender and smartbombs and u will see how useful a raven is.
Cao
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Ca0 Ca0
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Posted - 2004.08.20 16:18:00 -
[134]
How many times need it be said ONE VS ONE DOES NOT MATTER . . . and try fitting some defender and smartbombs and u will see how useful a raven is.
Cao
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Grosvenor Corama
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Posted - 2004.08.20 16:35:00 -
[135]
This is a nice thread, lots of nice constructive posts, lets keep it that way and not resort to name calling.
~{Forum Rules}~ ♥ ~{contact us}~ |
Grosvenor Corama
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Posted - 2004.08.20 16:35:00 -
[136]
This is a nice thread, lots of nice constructive posts, lets keep it that way and not resort to name calling.
~{Forum Rules}~ ♥ ~{contact us}~ |
GsDaddy
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Posted - 2004.08.20 16:35:00 -
[137]
Originally by: Ca0 Ca0
How many times need it be said ONE VS ONE DOES NOT MATTER . . .
Of course one vs one matters. It's the easiest way to get some idea of damage dealing + damage absorption performance.
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GsDaddy
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Posted - 2004.08.20 16:35:00 -
[138]
Originally by: Ca0 Ca0
How many times need it be said ONE VS ONE DOES NOT MATTER . . .
Of course one vs one matters. It's the easiest way to get some idea of damage dealing + damage absorption performance.
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Juan Andalusian
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Posted - 2004.08.20 19:01:00 -
[139]
Originally by: Ca0 Ca0
How many times need it be said ONE VS ONE DOES NOT MATTER . . . and try fitting some defender and smartbombs and u will see how useful a raven is. Cao
Onardian is in my Researcher account btw and i accidentally posted with him.
Even if you don't want to accept 1 v 1, the point made stands.
In larger skirmishes than 1 v 1 the tank will find itself in the situation where it can't keep up with the damage being dealt, similar situation that both tanks faced in Chaos.
Hence the conclusions which was derived from those 8 test fights stands.
P.S. The Megathron was using sbombs.
**Pain is meant to be felt** |
Juan Andalusian
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Posted - 2004.08.20 19:01:00 -
[140]
Originally by: Ca0 Ca0
How many times need it be said ONE VS ONE DOES NOT MATTER . . . and try fitting some defender and smartbombs and u will see how useful a raven is. Cao
Onardian is in my Researcher account btw and i accidentally posted with him.
Even if you don't want to accept 1 v 1, the point made stands.
In larger skirmishes than 1 v 1 the tank will find itself in the situation where it can't keep up with the damage being dealt, similar situation that both tanks faced in Chaos.
Hence the conclusions which was derived from those 8 test fights stands.
P.S. The Megathron was using sbombs.
**Pain is meant to be felt** |
tenp1
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Posted - 2004.08.21 00:02:00 -
[141]
Edited by: tenp1 on 21/08/2004 03:51:56
Edited by: tenp1 on 21/08/2004 00:13:29
Edited by: tenp1 on 21/08/2004 00:08:43
I am currently testing shield tanking on chaos. I am using highs - all siege with the last 2 slot using heavy nosferatu 2, mids - large shield boosters, 3 hardners, all the other free mids cap recharger II's, all the lows have PDU II's.
I am using 2 large boosters due to the fact that they can be used in the same way as 2 large armour repairers (1 at a time or to save cap or 2 constant to maximise repair), they also repair about the same amount in the same time (so long as u have repair lvl 4/5). Large armour repairers repair a little more, but the Large SB does 3 cycles in the same time so it's pretty balanced. Also low repair skills means that the large SB can do 4 cycles in the same time as a Large armour repairers 1 cycle, so making the SB repair more (balanced again as there is no skill to increase SB cycle time).
With my skills :-
Electronics lvl 5
Engineering lvl 5
Shield ops lvl 4
Shield management lvl 4
Energy system Ops lvl 5
Energy managements lvl 4
mechanic Lvl 5
Hull Upgrades lvl 4
Weapon upgrades Lvl 4
With the above config I have the following -
Raven
875 CPU
15155 PG
5312 Structure
5100 Armour
7351 Shields with 1026.18 Recharge rate
6509 Capacitor with 355.53 recharge rate
Scorpion
937 CPU
13674 PG
4375 Structure
4200 Armour
7128 Shields with 1121.51 recharge rate
6199 Capacitor with 248.88 recharge rate
Not too bad HP wise on either ship and base cap, both similar cap wise to a lvl 3 amarr BS apoc. just for a rough comparrison here are my LvL 4 amarr BS Apoc stats. It is using, 4 Cap recharger 2's in mid, in lows 2x large armour repairers 3 hardners and 2 cap relays, 6xMegabeams and 2 small medium beams in high
Apoc
625 CPU
24375 PG
5312 Structure
5760 Armour
4770 Shields with 1600 recharge rate
6912 Capacitor with 181.65 recharge rate
I found i could run 1 SB constant on the scorp whilst keeping the cap around 55%. When i use the second the cap drains quite quickly but as the launchers use little cap it can run quite low before i need to deactivate the second booster to recharge the cap, which is also helped by the high shield hp to soak up the damage. On the raven I couldn't run 1 large Booster constant as it would completely drain the cap, tho very slowly. Running the second can drain the cap quite quickly, though again the extra HP and low launcher cap use helps when I need to deactivate the SB to recharge cap. The heavy nosferatu helped in both cases but is not somthing i would like to rely on. There was also the option to use cap boosters but Iwanted this to be similar to the self sustaining armour tank.
It seems to me that the easiest solution to fix shield tanking would be to either.
1. Tweak the cap recharge rate on the ships so that with the above config would give similar results to the scorp if not a little better. It would only effect the idividual ships, so no negative/positives for other ships like a mod change, and wouldn't be difficult to impliment either. Admitedly this means using expensive tech 2 mods (well not much different to what would be needed to do decently tank an apoc using 4xCap recharger 2's) but thats the price u pay if you want the best.
or
2. Decrease the cap use of shield boosters a touch, 10-15 less cap per cycle on large SB would probably do the trick (down from 160 to 150 or 145). They will still use alot more cap than an armour repairer (sheild tanks use less cap intensive weapons than armour tanks so in general cap usage is similar). This would benefit all ships though more so in the case of shield tanks.
I'm off to test the dominix now 
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tenp1
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Posted - 2004.08.21 00:02:00 -
[142]
Edited by: tenp1 on 21/08/2004 03:51:56
Edited by: tenp1 on 21/08/2004 00:13:29
Edited by: tenp1 on 21/08/2004 00:08:43
I am currently testing shield tanking on chaos. I am using highs - all siege with the last 2 slot using heavy nosferatu 2, mids - large shield boosters, 3 hardners, all the other free mids cap recharger II's, all the lows have PDU II's.
I am using 2 large boosters due to the fact that they can be used in the same way as 2 large armour repairers (1 at a time or to save cap or 2 constant to maximise repair), they also repair about the same amount in the same time (so long as u have repair lvl 4/5). Large armour repairers repair a little more, but the Large SB does 3 cycles in the same time so it's pretty balanced. Also low repair skills means that the large SB can do 4 cycles in the same time as a Large armour repairers 1 cycle, so making the SB repair more (balanced again as there is no skill to increase SB cycle time).
With my skills :-
Electronics lvl 5
Engineering lvl 5
Shield ops lvl 4
Shield management lvl 4
Energy system Ops lvl 5
Energy managements lvl 4
mechanic Lvl 5
Hull Upgrades lvl 4
Weapon upgrades Lvl 4
With the above config I have the following -
Raven
875 CPU
15155 PG
5312 Structure
5100 Armour
7351 Shields with 1026.18 Recharge rate
6509 Capacitor with 355.53 recharge rate
Scorpion
937 CPU
13674 PG
4375 Structure
4200 Armour
7128 Shields with 1121.51 recharge rate
6199 Capacitor with 248.88 recharge rate
Not too bad HP wise on either ship and base cap, both similar cap wise to a lvl 3 amarr BS apoc. just for a rough comparrison here are my LvL 4 amarr BS Apoc stats. It is using, 4 Cap recharger 2's in mid, in lows 2x large armour repairers 3 hardners and 2 cap relays, 6xMegabeams and 2 small medium beams in high
Apoc
625 CPU
24375 PG
5312 Structure
5760 Armour
4770 Shields with 1600 recharge rate
6912 Capacitor with 181.65 recharge rate
I found i could run 1 SB constant on the scorp whilst keeping the cap around 55%. When i use the second the cap drains quite quickly but as the launchers use little cap it can run quite low before i need to deactivate the second booster to recharge the cap, which is also helped by the high shield hp to soak up the damage. On the raven I couldn't run 1 large Booster constant as it would completely drain the cap, tho very slowly. Running the second can drain the cap quite quickly, though again the extra HP and low launcher cap use helps when I need to deactivate the SB to recharge cap. The heavy nosferatu helped in both cases but is not somthing i would like to rely on. There was also the option to use cap boosters but Iwanted this to be similar to the self sustaining armour tank.
It seems to me that the easiest solution to fix shield tanking would be to either.
1. Tweak the cap recharge rate on the ships so that with the above config would give similar results to the scorp if not a little better. It would only effect the idividual ships, so no negative/positives for other ships like a mod change, and wouldn't be difficult to impliment either. Admitedly this means using expensive tech 2 mods (well not much different to what would be needed to do decently tank an apoc using 4xCap recharger 2's) but thats the price u pay if you want the best.
or
2. Decrease the cap use of shield boosters a touch, 10-15 less cap per cycle on large SB would probably do the trick (down from 160 to 150 or 145). They will still use alot more cap than an armour repairer (sheild tanks use less cap intensive weapons than armour tanks so in general cap usage is similar). This would benefit all ships though more so in the case of shield tanks.
I'm off to test the dominix now
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tenp1
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Posted - 2004.08.21 00:59:00 -
[143]
With the dominix I used 6x350 rails or Large Ions, Mids 2 large shield Boosters and 3xhardners, Lows 7x PDU 2's. Considering the amount of complaints I see about being a bad gun platform I am suprised as that is pretty damn good, even more so with all the drones.
750 CPU
15829 PG
5312 Structure
4770 Armour
5909 Shield with 859.15 recharge rate
6754 Capacitor with 350.37 Recharge rate
I found the tanking ability was similar to that of the raven in that I couldn't run 1 Booster on constant and 2 eat alot of cap. The Armour/shield total HP are slightly less than the raven and scorps as well (which incidently beat my Apoc in total shield/armour hp) but it does ahve a fair bit moore cap. Again the there is only a minor faliure with the shield tank that my previously mentioned idea would remedy.
On a side note all 3 of these ships are far more flexible in fitting than the armour tanks that are the Apoc, Geddon and Mega. This has to also be factored in when making a fiting comparison as just saying that 1 thing is better than another without taking into account all other factors is pointless. The Gankgeddon for instance, awsome damage dealer but such poor defence that any ship that even a lightly armed frig can kill it.
Anyway, i'm off to TQ to buy myself a Dominix, I can't belive it gets made out to be a poor gunship yet is evidently no such thing
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tenp1
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Posted - 2004.08.21 00:59:00 -
[144]
With the dominix I used 6x350 rails or Large Ions, Mids 2 large shield Boosters and 3xhardners, Lows 7x PDU 2's. Considering the amount of complaints I see about being a bad gun platform I am suprised as that is pretty damn good, even more so with all the drones.
750 CPU
15829 PG
5312 Structure
4770 Armour
5909 Shield with 859.15 recharge rate
6754 Capacitor with 350.37 Recharge rate
I found the tanking ability was similar to that of the raven in that I couldn't run 1 Booster on constant and 2 eat alot of cap. The Armour/shield total HP are slightly less than the raven and scorps as well (which incidently beat my Apoc in total shield/armour hp) but it does ahve a fair bit moore cap. Again the there is only a minor faliure with the shield tank that my previously mentioned idea would remedy.
On a side note all 3 of these ships are far more flexible in fitting than the armour tanks that are the Apoc, Geddon and Mega. This has to also be factored in when making a fiting comparison as just saying that 1 thing is better than another without taking into account all other factors is pointless. The Gankgeddon for instance, awsome damage dealer but such poor defence that any ship that even a lightly armed frig can kill it.
Anyway, i'm off to TQ to buy myself a Dominix, I can't belive it gets made out to be a poor gunship yet is evidently no such thing
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Nafri
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Posted - 2004.08.21 01:05:00 -
[145]
dominix has incredible low PG and not really enough shield for beeing a Shield tank
best usage is as blastership cause drones want to have a target 20km from you, closer = better
and fitting a mwd will hurt your tanking ability a lot
Wanna fly with me?
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Nafri
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Posted - 2004.08.21 01:05:00 -
[146]
dominix has incredible low PG and not really enough shield for beeing a Shield tank
best usage is as blastership cause drones want to have a target 20km from you, closer = better
and fitting a mwd will hurt your tanking ability a lot
Wanna fly with me?
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tenp1
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Posted - 2004.08.21 01:40:00 -
[147]
When compared to an Armageddon the dominix doesn't look too bad. Infact only the improved cap recharge keeps the geddon tanking. Using UV crystals helps as you use 40% less cap and stll get good damage/range, just like iridium ammo.
With this setup 7xMegapulse, 3xCap Recharger II's, 2 Large armour repairers, 3 hardners, 1 PDU II and 2xcap relays, I get the following :-
562 CPU
21656 PG
4968 Structure
5100 Armour
4410 Shield with a 1464 sc recharge rate
5355 Capcitor with 195.64 sec recharge rate
This setup is close to the edge CPU and PG wise, wheras the Dominix has about 70 cpu and 2000pg left. add to that the fact that this is more or less "the" geddon setup. You can fit other guns etc. but, in my opinion, it seriously gimps the ship in one way or another.
Armour tanks are tank gunships only, Shield tank ships are tank gunships or EW Gunships (I still count missile boats when I say gunships). That is an advantage that cannot be ignored, which in my opinion, means a shield tank should never be as good as an armour tank, as armour tanks specialise. That said shield tanks do need a slight boost like I have mentioned so that they can tank but on a knife edge around that 50-55% cap mark.
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tenp1
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Posted - 2004.08.21 01:40:00 -
[148]
When compared to an Armageddon the dominix doesn't look too bad. Infact only the improved cap recharge keeps the geddon tanking. Using UV crystals helps as you use 40% less cap and stll get good damage/range, just like iridium ammo.
With this setup 7xMegapulse, 3xCap Recharger II's, 2 Large armour repairers, 3 hardners, 1 PDU II and 2xcap relays, I get the following :-
562 CPU
21656 PG
4968 Structure
5100 Armour
4410 Shield with a 1464 sc recharge rate
5355 Capcitor with 195.64 sec recharge rate
This setup is close to the edge CPU and PG wise, wheras the Dominix has about 70 cpu and 2000pg left. add to that the fact that this is more or less "the" geddon setup. You can fit other guns etc. but, in my opinion, it seriously gimps the ship in one way or another.
Armour tanks are tank gunships only, Shield tank ships are tank gunships or EW Gunships (I still count missile boats when I say gunships). That is an advantage that cannot be ignored, which in my opinion, means a shield tank should never be as good as an armour tank, as armour tanks specialise. That said shield tanks do need a slight boost like I have mentioned so that they can tank but on a knife edge around that 50-55% cap mark.
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Cruz
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Posted - 2004.08.21 02:19:00 -
[149]
tenp1, two large armor reps would eat a geddons cap away
................. |
Cruz
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Posted - 2004.08.21 02:19:00 -
[150]
tenp1, two large armor reps would eat a geddons cap away
................. |
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