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How long till exploration will be completely valueless!?

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Cerebrus Moronicus	Posted - 2009.03.19 16:15:00 - [31] Originally by: Qui Shon That it weakens the already, for most people, subpar income from the exploration profession is certainly an issue on it's own, but it's not the greatest loss here. I agree that it is an issue on its own, which is entirely the issue this thread was originally about (which I helped ruin, sorry guys.) Originally by: Qui Shon The old scanning system certainly wasn't great, and needed a change, but making it trivial was the wrong change. Maybe if we look at it as a work in progress. Its gone from one extreme to the other... taking hours to taking minutes to scan a site. They may yet find a happy medium.
Qui Shon	Posted - 2009.03.19 17:03:00 - [32] We can hope. I'm so silly I still nurture a "secret" hope that maybe, just maybe there's still something "out there" that nobody has discovered yet, some new thing not on the forums yet. Even though I know it is folly to think so. Sorry for the slight thread derailment, but the cause [of my disappointment with the way WH was implemented, and the expected decresed income from exploring] is the same design decision, that of making scanning "mainstream", i.e. very easy, so it's not completely OT.
Sillas Cov Caldari 22nd Black Rise Defensive Unit	Posted - 2009.03.19 17:15:00 - [33] I'm New to scanning, as I'll admit I wouldn't nor couldn't be bothered to use the old system because I found it way too time intensive. The new scanning system AND the new W space content has fully captivated my attention, as has the task of actually getting a T3 ship built. Yes I think the market will be saturated with Exploration loot, but then again the real money will shift to T3 loot gathering. Finding Mag and Radar sites in w space is a solid challenge given : 1)the logistics of getting into the w hole 2)actually sifting and finding the site amongst the many grav sites 3)and finally actually hacking the sites requires team work given the lethality of rats and from gankage. 4) the inability to place markers on the map for note keeping. You want pricey loot... well then go find sleeper mag and radar sites. The market will shift as it does within Eve, but T3 ships are simply very cool to use and the demand form these will always remain huge! Cpp has made a brilliant move to force explorers to use full on team work to access sleeper - T3 loot, which is very good for the profession. I'm seriously thinking of setting up a corporation to exclusively handle T3 sleeper exploration. (Me a CEO in EVE ?? my lord I never thought the day would come....) Onward Sillas
Cerebrus Moronicus	Posted - 2009.03.19 17:31:00 - [34] Originally by: Sillas Cov I'm seriously thinking of setting up a corporation to exclusively handle T3 sleeper exploration. lol Excellent idea considering you and I (well, my explorer) are in competition over our particular corner of the Black Rise systems :)
Pwett QUANT Corp. QUANT Hegemony	Posted - 2009.03.19 17:34:00 - [35] I was thinking of re-activating my corp to do just that :) _______________ <Q> QUANT Hegemony QUANT is rebuilding, EVE-Mail me for recruitment info. Item Database
Von Kapiche Minmatar	Posted - 2009.03.19 19:00:00 - [36] Am I replying in a market manipulation thread? Fixing k-space scanning could be as simple as reducing the signal strength of the existing sites. Got to agree the actual process is an improvement over the old system though; ok so you needed to work out where to drop BMs ( or just buy some ), but after that... where was the player skill? drop probes, go afk, repeat?
Lyvanna Kitaen Minmatar Noonday Sun Corp	Posted - 2009.03.19 19:50:00 - [37] Originally by: Mikal Drey Originally by: K'uata Sayus Already miss the days where the finesse of dropping a bookmark was the true test of a competent explorer. tbvfh they were the stupid ones . . . all sites dropped within 4au of a static object. (usually a planet) and you never needed the BM's or the finesse of making a midwarp BM to get full coverage. I just trained up an alt and we acted as a team to get good probe coverage. It was much faster having 2 players rolling the scanning dice than just one. The new system has pretty much eliminated my need for a second scanning character. She now flies an orca, hauls my site running ships and hops in a fighting ship when needed for the harder sites.
Tauranon Gallente Garoun Investment Bank	Posted - 2009.03.20 00:28:00 - [38] Edited by: Tauranon on 20/03/2009 00:28:30 The 'skill' in the old system was remembering to hire a movie to watch during the probe countdowns. It also doesn't take 2 minutes to scan everything down, as I find more hits are wormholes than anything else. ie if you are still exploring for sites, you've got to sift through more hits before you find the one you want. Locating all the hits in a multi-signature system is more fun IMHO then hoping the random number generator will throw you a bone. Judging by the number of people out there scanning, thats a widely held view.
Sir Elliot	Posted - 2009.03.20 05:50:00 - [39] TBH the current system is still messed up and needs some serious buffing. Right now we have a time sink that involves a mini game of moving 4 objects within a certain target in the proper fashion. I could go to newgrounds.com if I wanted that. Make ACCESSING the content easier, but UTILIZING the content harder. Making finding and getting to the sites easy, but put in hard skill requirements to do more than pew pew. The current method of finding combat site in WH space is great. Apply that method to other sites, but have the basic probe search be based on your skills. Either you can find the site or you can't, and you find out what you need to know in a few seconds, and then you don't waste time with the mini-game. Then folks can get back to the twofold business of 1) Actually playing eve and 2) Maxing out a non-combat alt to utilize a non-combat game mechanic, as is already done for most other major functions anyways.
Tomogara	Posted - 2009.03.20 11:05:00 - [40] Originally by: Mikal Drey totally pointless the sites were ALWAYS within 4au of a static object. Which is why you DID need the midwarp bookmarks, because in many systems, planets are closer than 4AU from each other. Dropping a probe at one meant you couldn't drop a probe at the other, so to cover the rest of the area within 4AU of the second planet, you dropped a midwarp bookmark near planet 2 but also >4 AU from planet 1. That way you'd get better coverage around planet 2. Midwarp BMs weren't designed to cover more than 4 AU away from planets (which was an unwanted side effect), they were designed to better cover the space that WAS within 4 AU of planets. Scanning one planet at a time would be ungodly slow. You wanted to scan all planets at once, and midwarp BMs were the way you could increase your coverage -- since if the actual signal was out of your coverage, you'd never get it.
Brixer Dai Dai Hai	Posted - 2009.03.20 11:35:00 - [41] Even if CCP want exploration to be mainstream they don't have to let a 2 week old noob find stuff as easy as a vet with lvl 5s and implants. It's like saying we want to make PvP mainstream now, and then let Large Hybrids be rank 1 skills because we want more to be able to use them. Why not just give lvl5 l33t skills til everyone then. Then everyone can do everything as good as someone playing for years, that would be cool.
Wet Ferret	Posted - 2009.03.20 11:50:00 - [42] Originally by: Brixer Even if CCP want exploration to be mainstream they don't have to let a 2 week old noob find stuff as easy as a vet with lvl 5s and implants. It's like saying we want to make PvP mainstream now, and then let Large Hybrids be rank 1 skills because we want more to be able to use them. Why not just give lvl5 l33t skills til everyone then. Then everyone can do everything as good as someone playing for years, that would be cool. So exploration isn't completely worthless without all lvl Vs and implants anymore. So I guess it's the end of the world or something. A high skilled character will still find anything that's not a Cosmic Anomaly faster than a newbie; especially with the option of using deep space probes. But, yeah. These forums seriously need some indicator that the post has ended and the sig has started.
Tippia Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2009.03.20 11:54:00 - [43] Originally by: Brixer Even if CCP want exploration to be mainstream they don't have to let a 2 week old noob find stuff as easy as a vet with lvl 5s and implants. …and then the noob warps in and instantly goes home in a pod, or just empty-handed in general since he can't access any of the goodies at the site. Oh, and the noob can't find stuff "as easy" as that vet, unless the vet is incompetent. Skills and equipment still give a fair bonus to scanning and allows you to pinpoint things you just can't do with just the base level stuff. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in =v=… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Reangorette Bianie	Posted - 2009.03.20 13:23:00 - [44] It will be completely useless when CCP allows 0.0 style possesion and exclusivity to lock out everyone else. As far as economics go, the drop tables can always be adjusted. I wouldn't worry.
K'uata Sayus	Posted - 2009.03.20 13:41:00 - [45] Originally by: Mikal Drey Originally by: K'uata Sayus Already miss the days where the finesse of dropping a bookmark was the true test of a competent explorer. tbvfh they were the stupid ones . . . all sites dropped within 4au of a static object. (usually a planet) and you never needed the BM's or the finesse of making a midwarp BM to get full coverage. You, tbvfh, are the stupid one. With planets close together and not being able to place a probe within the range of another, there were often areas within 4AU of a planet that were uncovered by overlapping probes. So, Meestair Drey, in order to place a probe to cover those areas where there was no definitive place to warp you needed a bookmark. SOOOOO, you had to go from one celestial object to the other dropping bookmarks, the object being to be able to warp to a bookmark just outside the scan area of a probe already in place. If you had done any amount of exploration you'd be well aware of this...... EVERYONE SEEMS NORMAL UNTIL YOU GET TO KNOW THEM.
Colt Landers	Posted - 2009.03.20 14:30:00 - [46] Originally by: Norden So, since anyone can scan down 90% of all sites in unbonused ships in 3 mins, how long will it take till all the stuff u get out of sites will be completely worthless? I have a bad feeling about this, but the way scanning is now, it must destroy the market for all this. Or has anyone any argument against that? Norden People always dislike change. My opinoin is that the wormhole exploration novelty will fizzle out. The markets will probably drop as expected for a time and then will rise again as people start doing other stuff. Let's be honest, scanning is boring.
Kalenia Rostok	Posted - 2009.03.20 16:25:00 - [47] Edited by: Kalenia Rostok on 20/03/2009 16:25:31 Originally by: Tomogara Originally by: Mikal Drey totally pointless the sites were ALWAYS within 4au of a static object. Which is why you DID need the midwarp bookmarks, because in many systems, planets are closer than 4AU from each other. Dropping a probe at one meant you couldn't drop a probe at the other, so to cover the rest of the area within 4AU of the second planet, you dropped a midwarp bookmark near planet 2 but also >4 AU from planet 1. That way you'd get better coverage around planet 2. Midwarp BMs weren't designed to cover more than 4 AU away from planets (which was an unwanted side effect), they were designed to better cover the space that WAS within 4 AU of planets. Scanning one planet at a time would be ungodly slow. You wanted to scan all planets at once, and midwarp BMs were the way you could increase your coverage -- since if the actual signal was out of your coverage, you'd never get it. I never had an issue with this. If I couldn't get complete coverage, it was no big deal. Obviously, from the multi-spec I knew the type of site I wanted was in system, and since basically only the inner solar system had this "overlap" issue, I'd only miss out on 1 probe spot. Scan a few times with probes at all the planets I could hit, if nothing was found, I'd remove the first inner solar system probe, and replace it on the other side. Presto. Never failed me. Only happened a few times anyways (that the site was at the unprobed side). 97% of the time, the original set of probes hit what I was looking for. Why bother making all those BM's for the 3% you can scan down easily enough once you've determined they weren't elsewhere?
Tom Peeping	Posted - 2009.03.20 16:35:00 - [48] Oh noes... they made a change that made something easier that I spent some SP in. LOL PVP'ers have been dealing with this forever. Welcome to the club explorers. Adapt or die is I believe the term usually bunted about.
Kalenia Rostok	Posted - 2009.03.20 16:39:00 - [49] Edited by: Kalenia Rostok on 20/03/2009 16:40:10 Originally by: Tom Peeping Oh noes... they made a change that made something easier that I spent some SP in. LOL PVP'ers have been dealing with this forever. Welcome to the club explorers. Adapt or die is I believe the term usually bunted about. Unlike in PvP, there's no reason to "adapt" to the new system. It's a joke. A blind monkey can now explore 95% as well as the old pro, and given a week, just as well. They removed one form of tedium (the wait between scans) with another (moving probes around). It's still boring to me, just quicker now. And a lot more congested. Give me an exploration system that requires some PLAYER skill beyond a) waiting b) moving 4 dots around in a pyramid formation with a clunky UI. Something that requires intellect beyond that of a 2 month old baby playing with blocks.
Miss President Caldari SOLARIS ASTERIUS	Posted - 2009.04.02 13:35:00 - [50] Originally by: Colt Landers People always dislike change. My opinoin is that the wormhole exploration novelty will fizzle out. The markets will probably drop as expected for a time and then will rise again as people start doing other stuff. Let's be honest, scanning is boring. Scanning is a source of income, just like lvl4 missions. Some maybe be bored with lvl4 missions and switch to exploration. Some who never possessed the the right skills but wanted to try if it was easy, can do it. The prices for exploration loot has decreased in the range of 10-25%. As the supply increased, the players will be undercutting other players. The price can be dropping even farther down >40%. I thought this would level out, but I have my doubts now, unless CCP intervenes of course. Keep in mind, this topic is regarding Regular exploration contents, not wormholes. So basically for 100 bil loot u can be getting 750 mil. Tbh, these drops makes me wonder if I still want to do exploration. CCPs goal was to make exploration mainstream, dedicated explorers got screwed, and now they are being pushed out from the market by the mainstream population of eve a.k.a everyone because scanning is so dumb easy now and you don't get the same isk anymore, due to the market flood. I really hope CCP is reading this and maybe would comment on what their intentions were and how they will circumvent it.
Princess Scarlett	Posted - 2009.04.02 13:52:00 - [51] Edited by: Princess Scarlett on 02/04/2009 13:53:06 i can easily scan the whole system with 27k points in science (yes even hard radar ones and gravimetrics) and i have a message to all skilled old guard explorers! with 17 mil points in exploration get over it please. time of 17 mln skill point computer machines using perforated paper are over!!! my solar powered 1 dollar calculator is doing the same job quicker and faster. telegraph being replaced by the telephone old wizards who cured headaches by dancing being replaced by aspirin loot is going down in price and its good!
Besmin Project Mirage	Posted - 2009.04.02 14:46:00 - [52] Originally by: Princess Scarlett Edited by: Princess Scarlett on 02/04/2009 13:53:06 i can easily scan the whole system with 27k points in science (yes even hard radar ones and gravimetrics) I sincerely doubt that your math regarding the SP investment is correct (or now can you have astrometrics 4 for pinpointing and at least 2 or 3 levels of rangefinding and triangulation within 27k SP), but it's nice to give low-sp players a sense of accomplishment. Or that you can DO anything with those "valuable" sites (I assume you talk about radars) with 27k sp in science, unless you can learn hacking with donow... science I as prerequisite now :D Sorry to disappoint you, but the skill requirements in the new system are roughly equivalent with previous ones, unless you're happy just to know the sites are there, not running and having some profit from them
Synnyr	Posted - 2009.04.02 21:01:00 - [53] Personally I hate the new system. I used to have fun flying around and finding sites. It was also profitable. Now with no multi-spec capability it's nothing more than annoying and time-consuming. I wasted weeks of training time and hundreds of millions on BPs, implants, etc. I also have to go back to mission-running and ratting to make any money. It's enough to make a fella want to stop playing...at least in my case. If I could at least run a Multi-spec and see if there are sites in the system I'd like to hunt down then I could tolerate it. But working every single signature to find out that it's a gravimetric is futile and annoying. Certainly not fun.
tailboom3 Ever Flow	Posted - 2009.04.02 22:37:00 - [54] yes multi spec needs to come back.
Nyota Sol	Posted - 2009.04.02 23:02:00 - [55] 1. Let's not confuse scanning for players vs scanning for exploration. In my view, one was nerfed while the other was made more difficult. I liked the changes in both cases but i feel exploration as a profession is increasingly at risk. 2. Every time i've asked folks to show evidence of the exploration market "dying" since Apoc, i've seen no concrete evidence of a massive wave of exploration-driven supplies. In a few cases the prices dropped, but those drops started BEFORE Apoc was released and could better be explained by folks dumping their stockpiles on the market to cash out. I see no huge supply-driven crisis (yet). If anything, demand for those materials should be analyzed. It's possible that the wave hasnt fully hit and won't until all the people training hacking, arch and covert ops can truly change the markets. 3. Making scanning simpler and more intuitive is fantastic, but it doesnt improve in a meaningful way with increased skills. Exploration will be arguably too easy with the upcoming changes (IDs, ignore features, etc). The nerf of DSPs really made Astro 5's value questionable and the next wave of changes makes them fairly pointless unless you're scanning for pilots. My suggestion is that they make the capacity to ignore scan target IDs dependent on your skill levels. See this thread for more details on the changes currently on the test server (which could change before release). http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1039779 ___________________________________________ *Lost in Space* - Apocrypha Exploration Resources
Era Nyte Amarr New Angel Industries United Federation Of Corps	Posted - 2009.04.02 23:37:00 - [56] Would love a filter, just to cut out worm holes, those darn things are geting anoying.. Kinda guted i'm 1 day from Deep space Probes, only to find they are pointless.. Sure I can use 1 on a large system to cover all in one base scan, but it's not realy worth 12 days training to do somthing I happily did with 4.. On bright side last 2 days turned out great, only got to play about 2 hrs.. Probed down 2 radar sites in one system (now wormhole for once \o/ ) made 20mil.. Then probed out 2 different mission runers, 1 in a Paladin, who instantly started to pop the wrecks while blabering in chat about "Why dont people ask first yada yada yada" then ironicaly warped off leaving me a load of free shiny tech 2 drones to scoop up (worth far more than salvage) Second a nice paranoid fell in a Golem, who opened a com chan, asking what he could do for me, other than accidently loot my drop and flag himself (we chatted and parted) was kinda fun watching his ship tank and spank the mission.. Realy hope they give deep space probes a use though, as in all honesty, a fully trained probe specialist should be able to just warp in, launch and get a basic reading on amount/type far faster and easier, than some novice with basic knowlende of how to fire the launcher and read the probes (my alt with astro 2 dosnt take much longer than my main in his cov op 5, astro 4, lots other probe skills to 3 and 2x probe rigs)
Khwalik Ghetto Kings	Posted - 2009.04.03 11:23:00 - [57] I agree that we need to have some form of distinguishing sites either by bringing multi specs back or something. WH's are of little use to me other than if I want to send alts to their death for the most part. I've been off this week so I spent yesterday running my typical scan area I used to run total of about 15 systems give or take. The proliferation of WH's compared to other sites is absurd imo. Now I've heard alot of complaints of a proliferation of grav's,I've not seen it where I live...new scan mechanics seem buggy as well. I'd had hopes that when this talk of making explortation new and exciting etc, it might actually amount to something...insted we just ended up taking one in the rear and not getting a reach around.
Goyda Destry's Lounge Important Internet Spaceship League	Posted - 2009.04.03 15:58:00 - [58] Originally by: Khwalik I agree that we need to have some form of distinguishing sites either by bringing multi specs back or something. WH's are of little use to me other than if I want to send alts to their death for the most part. I've been off this week so I spent yesterday running my typical scan area I used to run total of about 15 systems give or take. The proliferation of WH's compared to other sites is absurd imo. Now I've heard alot of complaints of a proliferation of grav's,I've not seen it where I live...new scan mechanics seem buggy as well. I'd had hopes that when this talk of making explortation new and exciting etc, it might actually amount to something...insted we just ended up taking one in the rear and not getting a reach around. I think they went 'regional' with the sites. If I find ONE more frickin ladar site I'm gonna scream. BEfore they were SO rare but now they're everywhere ! I'd LOVE to be able to filter out specific signatures, much like I can filter out ship types. I don't care about grav sites or radar or magne (any more anyway) but I am ok with the OCCASIONAL ladar site and WH's. But even the newness of WH's is wearing off. Too much effort sometimes. As for the probes, I think it's absurd that your onboard scanner can determine ship type and the probes have to get a 24% hit to determine the type. It makes no sense to me at all. I figure either turn off ship ID on direction scans or make the probes tell you the ship type when it finds a ship.

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