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Jaxel Valosh
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Posted - 2009.03.23 21:23:00 -
[1]
Hey,
After soloing some WH space sites I found from high-sec, I was wondering what people's thoughts were on the viability of doing WH exploration vs. grinding level 4s.
So far, I haven't found anything in WH space that would net me the same ISK as simply running a lvl 4. Mind you, I have been soloing the sites I have found, and they haven't been bigger than class 3 perimeter site. I thought the T3 salvage I looted was worth something, until I took it to market and saw how the bottom had fell through on them.
Has anyone else found they can make more ISK/hr doing WHs? Is it more profitable in a group vs. the larger sites? Have I had bad luck in my salvaging? Do you need to find the grav sites, etc. in WH space to make more ISK?
I know the age old question of "what is the best ISK/hr activity?" is kind of lame, but really, if I'm going to risk my ship in 0.0 WH space, I better be getting more ISK than running a lvl 4 in the safety of high-sec. WH space is cool for the exploration aspect and all, but I'm just trying to see if the risk/reward ratio is good enough.
Thanks.
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Wet Ferret
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Posted - 2009.03.23 21:58:00 -
[2]
WH = random, lots of risk, etc. The skills needed to produce the T3 components are not had by many, so there's not a lot of production chains going. The perception that T3 ships aren't all that great doesn't help matters.
The answer is obvious from a pure ISK-making perspective. Right now, you're better off sticking to reliable methods like missions or ratting.
But, yeah. These forums seriously need some indicator that the post has ended and the sig has started. |
Argendta
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Posted - 2009.03.23 22:08:00 -
[3]
Nothing beats lvl4 for pure isks/hour/lack of risk. It's pretty hard to get more out of wormholes; you certainly won't get more solo.
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation Blackguard Coalition
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Posted - 2009.03.23 22:16:00 -
[4]
I have so far broken even doing WH vs L4's with a group of 3. I don't know if that will continue to be the case. Probably not, but it's alot more fun.
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org |
Morberi
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Posted - 2009.03.23 22:51:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Liang Nuren I have so far broken even doing WH vs L4's with a group of 3. I don't know if that will continue to be the case. Probably not, but it's alot more fun.
-Liang
I've not quite broke even but there were more than 3 of us and it was far far funner than Lvl 4's which is more than enough to get me to shun missioning.
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Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
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Posted - 2009.03.24 00:54:00 -
[6]
L4's are infinitely more profitable on an ISK/hour scale. You can do L4s solo rather easily. You can't do "decent" (ie. Frontier+) WH sites solo easily (you CAN do them solo, it just takes awhile). Difference is that L4s are so mind numbingly boring that you want to kill yourself. WH sites are way more challenging, and the Sleepers are more than willing to handle the killing for you.
Taxman VII: Kingdom of Vlad
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Kashre
Minmatar Imperium Technologies Sangre Azul
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Posted - 2009.03.24 07:07:00 -
[7]
Welllll... I have found that with a really dope t2 fitted AC+3x ambit maelstrom I can solo a frontier anomaly in about 30-45 minutes. Each one of those nets ~30 mil from the sleeper loot plus whatever you can get for the salvage...
So... assuming you had a steady supply of anomalies to run it seems like an awful lot of isk/hour. Even though I lose like 10 drones every time :P
BUT... it's so hit or miss on finding a good site. I just spent like 4 hours scanning all over the place and never found a single class 3 WH tonight.
Although I sort of disagree about the risk... at least if you stick with anomalies in class 3 you never seem to get scrammed, just 5x webbed... so as long as you can warp out and come back in the only real risk is gank squads of pvpers finding you. +++ "Etiquette is for the Dojo. In war there is only victory or death." - Eiji Yoshikawa |
Yvella
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Posted - 2009.03.24 10:37:00 -
[8]
Please share your tempest fit
Thank you!
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Triss S'Jet
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.03.24 11:28:00 -
[9]
With two ships it is possible to clear a frontier WH at a 20min per spawn rate, what gives a profit of 45mil every hour per person + the profit from all the salvage, which is hard to estimate yet, but should be worth about additional 15-25mil per hour.
I'm not counting the time required for finding appropriate WH's in low sec space.
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Dracthera
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.03.24 16:32:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Kashre Welllll... I have found that with a really dope t2 fitted AC+3x ambit maelstrom I can solo a frontier anomaly in about 30-45 minutes. Each one of those nets ~30 mil from the sleeper loot plus whatever you can get for the salvage...
...
BUT... it's so hit or miss on finding a good site. I just spent like 4 hours scanning all over the place and never found a single class 3 WH tonight.
Then you're NOT making insane amounts of ISK/hour. If you don't count the time it takes you to find a WH into your ISK/hour calculation, then you're not calculating your income correctly. Running L4's you don't spend any time finding missions because they're given to you. You need to compare total average income from an entire EVE session where you just run WH's to the total income from a session where you just run L4's for a true comparison.
It's called opportunity cost - the time your spend doing one activity that you could have spent doing another, more profitable one. Think about it this way - in the 4 hours you've spent looking for a WH, plus the 45 minutes to finish one, you've made 30 mil ISK. In that same amount of time you could have made about 120 mil ISK running L4's, and that's being conservative. Do you still think running WH's is more profitable?
Apto Quod Ususfructus |
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Von Kapiche
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.03.24 16:38:00 -
[11]
That's not factoring in fun into the opcost, this is a game rather than a job after all. Having said that, the OP didn't mention having fun once either.
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Dracthera
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.03.24 16:40:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Von Kapiche this is a game rather than a job after all...
Running L4's IS a job - it's an in-game job that provides you with the income you need to do other fun activities in the game. Grinding anything for hours on end loses it's fun quickly.
Apto Quod Ususfructus |
Thorian Baalnorn
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Posted - 2009.03.24 21:44:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Von Kapiche That's not factoring in fun into the opcost, this is a game rather than a job after all. Having said that, the OP didn't mention having fun once either.
For fun i kill people, making the isk to buy the ships to kill people is a job.
When i first started going in WH i thought the loot/salvage would be worth the risk of being in a 0.0 and having to fight harder NPCs. The loot/salvage is worth less overall than killing lowsec or 0.0 rats. So its definately not as pofitable with alot more commitment to time and alot more risk. On top of the sleeper drones are well just drones. which is the most uninteresting rat in the game to fight.
you can make ok money off WHs. Its a living much like changing oil at your local oil lube express.
However if you take a mission like gone berzerk i make a few mil solo off bounties with little work. and the loot in their in which ever form you sell it theirs another few mil( often over 10 mil for me) add the salvage theirs another few mil. so i can make 45 mil an hour running hard in WH space with alot of risk AFTER i find the WH and it has to be decent one, or i can run gone berzerk and make 30-40 mil in 30-40 min( including selling the loot /salvage accepting and turning in the mission, salvaging etc)
Ratting low sec i can make 1-5 mil every 20 min depending on the spawns and if they are chained and several million in loot and another several million in salvage so 5-20 mil every 20 min including salvaging and dumping. add another 10 minutes for an hours worth of loot for putting on market as sell orders. That dont include commander spawns.. which on occassion have netted me over 100 mil in loot and often net me over 50 mil in loot and i usually average 1 a day or every other day.
0.0 ratting- high bounties 3-5 mil every 20 min in a crap 0.0 4-8 mil in a decent truesec. Lots of battleship loot. Lots of salvage often 1-2 mil worth per BS. looting and salvaging including running an indy out to grab loot bring it back sell it etc... can make 25-50 mil an hour with every thing sold.. it depends alot on the market as well.
Just about everything pays almost as good or more than WHs. When i want to make money i rat or run missions. When i want a novelty change in grind i run WHs. but to me they are quite boring( probably in part due to how much hate killing drones)
Sleeper drones to me are nothing more than T2 drones with POS guns. if they put a bounty on them ... it would be more entertaining. or had lootable structures.. or different loot for that matter.... lets see i kill a frig its going to drop 2 of those nuerovisal things and a cruiser is going to drop 2 sleeper libraries and a bs drops 2 and 7 respectively... how about dropping some of that t3 ammo or maybe a t3 gun ...hell drop a t1 item i wont care when i know what exactly the rats going to drop... it takes all the fun out of killing it for me.
a bigger loot table for sleepers would greatly improve interest in them imo. however it is like a job as you know basically what each rat is going to drop. whereas normal rats drop a varity of items t1-meta4 of the general items fitted to that factions ship.
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Von Kapiche
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.03.25 06:01:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Dracthera
Running L4's IS a job - it's an in-game job that provides you with the income you need to do other fun activities in the game. Grinding anything for hours on end loses it's fun quickly.
Unfortunately true; however sleepers are still new enough to me at least to have some "job satisfaction" if you want a different term as part of their attraction, which I'm going to assume is part of the point to them not dropping large amounts of ISK. I don't think they were ever meant to be a solo farmable resource, though? I know groups of people who've pulled obscene amounts of potential ISK out, but as an organsied group.
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Wet Ferret
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Posted - 2009.03.25 06:55:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Thorian Baalnorn
a bigger loot table for sleepers would greatly improve interest in them imo. however it is like a job as you know basically what each rat is going to drop. whereas normal rats drop a varity of items t1-meta4 of the general items fitted to that factions ship.
It would quickly become worthless to even enter a WH without a hauler. Obviously they intended people to be able to loot the blue things with whatever ship they brought, since they only take up .1 m3, and those qualify as the "bounties" already. Maybe the occasional loot drop would be okay, but unless they were new items they wouldn't make any sense since they don't use the same things we do, it's all of their high-tech stuff (that needs to be salvaged).
I think you're in the minority when it comes to caring what the rats are dropping as opposed to how much their drops are worth - and with the NPC buy orders it's guaranteed cash drops from every one as long as you don't get exploded (unlike drone alloys, which must be reprocessed and/or sold to player).
But, yeah. These forums seriously need some indicator that the post has ended and the sig has started. |
Kashre
Minmatar Imperium Technologies Sangre Azul
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Posted - 2009.03.25 07:23:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Kashre on 25/03/2009 07:25:10
Originally by: Dracthera
Originally by: Kashre Welllll... I have found that with a really dope t2 fitted AC+3x ambit maelstrom I can solo a frontier anomaly in about 30-45 minutes. Each one of those nets ~30 mil from the sleeper loot plus whatever you can get for the salvage...
...
BUT... it's so hit or miss on finding a good site. I just spent like 4 hours scanning all over the place and never found a single class 3 WH tonight.
Then you're NOT making insane amounts of ISK/hour. If you don't count the time it takes you to find a WH into your ISK/hour calculation, then you're not calculating your income correctly. Running L4's you don't spend any time finding missions because they're given to you. You need to compare total average income from an entire EVE session where you just run WH's to the total income from a session where you just run L4's for a true comparison.
It's called opportunity cost - the time your spend doing one activity that you could have spent doing another, more profitable one. Think about it this way - in the 4 hours you've spent looking for a WH, plus the 45 minutes to finish one, you've made 30 mil ISK. In that same amount of time you could have made about 120 mil ISK running L4's, and that's being conservative. Do you still think running WH's is more profitable?
That was rather my point. I never actually said WH's are more profitable. In the long run anyways. Sometimes you get lucky though. I logged on one day, jumped to a .9 1 jump away, found a class 3 in about 5 minutes with 6 frontier sites inside. Me and a buddy went in and finished them off in about 3 hours. That *was* 30 mil an hour. PLUS whatever the salvage will be worth when the market figures out what it's doing.
Sometimes it's way more profitable than missions. IF you find a good WH fast, IF it has at least 2-4 frontier sites and IF you don't get ganked. A lot of if's compared to mission running, which is why missions are worth more. They're a sure thing. But god is it boring. Anyways, WH are certainly not worthless for isk generation, and they're a hell of a lot more fun than missions.
Yvella: It's not a tempest, it's a Maelstrom. 8x800mm
1xXL Shield booster II 1x shield boost amp I (don't QUITE have the skill for a T2 yet) Active EM hardener II Active thermal hardener II 2x Invuln II
Damage Control II 4x PDU II
3x Ambit extension I
20x warrior II
I can *just* get through a Frontier anomaly without having to warp out on the one that has a 2x BS spawn at the end. The one with only 1 BS spawn is easier. I might try putting in a Gyro or two and seeing if the higher DPS balances against the cap/shield performance from the PDU's, but I doubt it. If I didn't have BS 5 I'm sure I'd be warping out left and right.
+++ "Etiquette is for the Dojo. In war there is only victory or death." - Eiji Yoshikawa |
Hyveres
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.03.25 07:31:00 -
[17]
There are ways , but in raw isk/hour per person it wont compare to L4s. However I cant really expect my Miner/explorer alt to have similar L4 performance as my specialist Nightmare character.
There are 3 ways of doing wormholes, the first is what I call expeditionbased the second is PoSbased and the 3rd one is a mix of the 2.
The 3rd one is the highest risk, requires more people and might keep you out of empire space for days but the profits are okish that way.
And while I do have the mindset of a person that enjoys grinding L4s I am aware that most people don't. "Subtlety is a thing for philosophy, not combat. If you're going to kill someone, you might as well kill them a whole lot." - Vulcan Raven, The Last Days Of Foxhound |
OneSock
Crown Industries
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Posted - 2009.03.25 11:18:00 -
[18]
Those "easy" WHs your likely going to be limited to a BC and a basic clone therefore your going to take so much longer to get anything done. In Level 4s your in a pimped out BS and prob 500mill+ implant clone. The income/hr IMO is not comparable.
Plus as a solo activity your limited to what you can do in a WH. OK you can prob take a salvager and do some CAs, but your not going to give up a couple of mids for hacking /arch sites. Plus you gotta lose another high slot for a probe launcher.
Nah, WHs are more suited for small gangs where you can spread the logistics modules around a bit.
Might be a bit of fun to dip in and out solo from time to time. But TBH you may be better off looking for known space sites and hoping for a juicy DED plex or a faction spawn.
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Fenix12
Doom Guard Libertas Fidelitas
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Posted - 2009.03.25 11:52:00 -
[19]
I've done the odd WH anamoly on my own and must of got about 40mil for an hours work, Its far more fun because sleepers are a new enemy rather than doing angel extravaganza for the 20th time. I can kill sleepers for hours but i cant do 2 lvl 4's in a row because its so mind numbingly boring. Besides if your scanning out wormholes your gonna run across normal plexes which payout alot more since the rats have like double the bounties and theres a chance of faction loot.
Also lvl 4's are in high sec which is lame :P
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Hyveres
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.03.25 12:00:00 -
[20]
I should mention that I did bring a factionfit CNR into a WH class 3 encounter and tried to make some headway against frontier sites.
It would probably have been doable over time with multiple warpouts as I could pop 1-2 ships/turrets before I ran out of cap and shields , but the efficiency was lacking as I wont really consider stuff beyond frontier as soloefficient.
That being said I am a tad lacking in missileskills and would probably have done far better in a laserboat. I do get the feeling that a properly fit marauder set up for scan + salvage is made for running perimeter + frontier sites effectivly and solo. "Subtlety is a thing for philosophy, not combat. If you're going to kill someone, you might as well kill them a whole lot." - Vulcan Raven, The Last Days Of Foxhound |
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Julo Replikant
Holiday On ICE Quasar Generation
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Posted - 2009.03.25 13:03:00 -
[21]
I brought a CNR too in a wormhole, all was really ok to tank and kill stuff...
Until a small gang probed me and my corpmate ! (it is ok for me, i took the risk, it went bad, but hey it is a game !)
So as said, i think lvl 4 missions are far more juicy in isk/time ratio (log on, talk to agent, dock out kill stuff, salvage and loot...simple and easy task), but in fun / time ratio WH are far better !
Thank you CCP for this great extension, and please don't nerf them as some whiners who'd like them...They are perfect as they are ! (if you wanna solo all, then do not enter a wormhole, that's all, go for lvl 4 missions, ratting or what else !)
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Buster Gonads
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Posted - 2009.03.25 13:25:00 -
[22]
As some others have pointed out, pure ISK/hour calculations miss a lot of things that go towards the quality of your gaming experience. I have run Level 4 missions in low sec for a while, but as with everything you do repetitively, you start to lose the will to live (some people don't, but we aren't too sure how large their frontal lobes are).
The same is true of something like mining. If you want to semi-afk, mining ice is much easier than mining minerals, because you don't have to manage your beams. It nets much less ISK of course.
So with all things like this, you need to factor in both your enjoyment of playing alongside everything else. I expect when I setup a POS in WH space, I'll end up losing a lot of cash, but I'll enjoy the challenge, for a while (until I get bored with it). I did the same in the new drone regions. I ran my own POS there for a few months but eventually tired of it, let it run down and someone eventually popped it just for the hell of it. Who cares? The initial challenge of moving my kit up there through infested gate camps, setting up the POS, running the logistics to keep it healthy while making ISK to cover the cost was fun to do and gave me a sense of achievement (at least as much as you can get from a video game).
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Useless alt
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Posted - 2009.03.25 13:32:00 -
[23]
WH are fun not ISK printing holes, ISK printing is in the level 4 missions area, other then that unless you manage to find a very profitable trading route you are likely to not find anything that you can do solo that gives you the same ISK/h.
Now of course EVE is a game and not a job and thus WH's are likely to appeal more, the only trick being that you are not likely going to be able to hang on to your ship in a WH like you are in a level 4 mission. Since a lot of people used to have have one character doing PvP and one running misions in order to afford any loss they might have in PvP. WH's are more of a posibility for PvP players to live in high-sec and thus be safe in trading yet having the ability to go out and gank when ever they like.
Other then that WH's add very little to the game, T3 ships are few and far between, to hard to produce to see them in large numbers not really powerful enough to be desired by the general population and the added risk to loose SP when shot will keep a lot of potential customers away.
Personally I like the idea of a WH to just jump in and shoot at people but you are more likely to end up finding your ship ganked as soon as you enter or try to exit a WH because of the high chance of your ship carrying goods that are worth the attackers trouble and the fact that they run rather small risks of being jumped by an opposing fleet (much unlike 0.0 where this is a common thing)
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Thorian Baalnorn
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Posted - 2009.03.25 16:31:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Wet Ferret
Originally by: Thorian Baalnorn
a bigger loot table for sleepers would greatly improve interest in them imo. however it is like a job as you know basically what each rat is going to drop. whereas normal rats drop a varity of items t1-meta4 of the general items fitted to that factions ship.
It would quickly become worthless to even enter a WH without a hauler. Obviously they intended people to be able to loot the blue things with whatever ship they brought, since they only take up .1 m3, and those qualify as the "bounties" already. Maybe the occasional loot drop would be okay, but unless they were new items they wouldn't make any sense since they don't use the same things we do, it's all of their high-tech stuff (that needs to be salvaged).
I think you're in the minority when it comes to caring what the rats are dropping as opposed to how much their drops are worth - and with the NPC buy orders it's guaranteed cash drops from every one as long as you don't get exploded (unlike drone alloys, which must be reprocessed and/or sold to player).
This is probably true about people not caring about the loot,but the logic is flawed. This would be similar to saying since stations are rare in 0.0, they dont put asteriods or rat drops in 0.0 since people dont want to carry them back.
Ive found that simply most people are to lazy to loot/salvage wrecks. they spend the effort trying to kill a few more rats in a 20 min time so they get a slightly bigger payout of 1 maybe 3 mil per 20 min. Yesterday for example i killed a BS rat that dropped a meta 3 gun worth 500k isk and a meta 2 nos worth 400k isk 12 fried interface circuits worth 720k isk and 2 armor plates worth 400 k isk.... the rat bounty was worth 800k isk. i also got a couple t1s off the rat which i will recycle and use later to build a ship to sell. So i got 2mil isk worth of loot/salvage off a 800k isk and it took me about 1/2 the time as it did to kill the rat to make it, effectively resulting in me making 4 times as much off loot/salvage as the actual bounty. Most people just kill the rats and leave the wrecks... they leave 3/4 plus their money sitting in the belt.
This is why the loot excites me.cause i have to rat less than most people to make the same isk. so i can spend my time doing things i want too instead of grinding for isk.
WHs are no different than any other 0.0 in most causes unless your taking a fleet in( in which you could just have someone run back every once in a while in a dedicated hauler and pick up loot from everyones combat ship and replenish ammo) your probably doing the WH out of high or low sec, which means a station is typically 1 or 2 jumps away and the travel time is relatively short. Furthermore its noting to make a quick SS and and anchor a 2-3 cans in a hauler then come back in your combat ship do some sites drop the loot at your cans. when your done head back to dock grab the hauler and haul your loot out.
As it is now, their are only 2 items dropped. those two items are going to become very cheap as supply further outweighs demand. the salvage is going to run on par with t1 salvage with the pyramid looking salvage going for about the same as t2 normal salvage.
Isk wise WHs are a waste of time and even more of a boring grind than ratting as the reward is very little for the effort( about = to mining).
Im not complaining about whs at all. I love the concept. But their has to be a reason to go their and most valid reason i can think of is to kill other people...who btw will be in heavily tanked ships.
they could come out with some t3 mods which would make sense with the loot/parts coming from WH space only able to be fitted on a t3 ship. But this is a tricky subject, as they never intended t3 to be better than t2 at least in ships and i would assume they would want to stick to that model with any t3 mods.
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Wet Ferret
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Posted - 2009.03.25 17:31:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Thorian Baalnorn
As it is now, their are only 2 items dropped. those two items are going to become very cheap as supply further outweighs demand. the salvage is going to run on par with t1 salvage with the pyramid looking salvage going for about the same as t2 normal salvage.
Isk wise WHs are a waste of time and even more of a boring grind than ratting as the reward is very little for the effort( about = to mining).
There's actually 4 drops, which are bought by NPCs and have a set value that doesn't change. They are effectively bounties, just like empire faction tags.
And for what it's worth, my first trip into a WH I cleared out two intermediate (frontier) sites and brought home 4 AI Nexus (5m each), over 10 Ancient Coordinate Databate (1.5m each), some amount of Data Libraries (200k) and over 60 Neural Network Analyzers (50k each, crap). Now that isn't a massive haul, but IMO it's still decent ISK for about an hour of solo work. That doesn't take into account any of the salvage which I got as well.
All in all I don't think they have bad drops, what makes it not really worth it is the risk of W-space and the randomness of the sites.
But, yeah. These forums seriously need some indicator that the post has ended and the sig has started. |
Glarion Garnier
The Scope
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Posted - 2009.03.25 22:30:00 -
[26]
This thread lacks perspective. You forget that the juicy stuff in wormholes comes to those who team up and do it together (multiple BS spawns etc). And allso the high end gas cloud mining is lot's of iskies. _________________________________ -be vary of the men behind the curtain-
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