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PvP probing revisited?

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Captain Vampire	Posted - 2009.03.26 17:02:00 - [1] The probing system should get revisited, sooner rather than later. First, we really need a way to filter results for PvE/site probing, and the PvE and PvP system should be separated. The system is brilliant(in theory) for exploration, but it is a horrible PvP mechanic because of the "move and resize up to 8 widgets as fast as possible before the raven warps" treadmill. The system was originally designed for POS deployment, and works ok at that task. However, the system does not work well with the time factor of PvP. The constant "race" of launching 4/8 probes, selecting proper range, align them in a square and move them around is not a fun mechanic at all. It gets repetitive fast, and exponentially frustrating to use when your targets slip away time after time. Additionally the new system requires too much mouse clicking/dragging, in particular left mouse button clicking. The worst parts of the new system are imo: Moving and resizing multiple probes as fast as possible, in particular "shrink the square from 4-2 AU" part. Launching multiple probes Moving probes in the z-plane(can be done a lot easier, ref Homeworld) Missclicking widgets, clicking on other icons and probe range spheres. My suggestion for the PvP aspect, is to merge the old system with the new. Give combat probes the ability to find targets with only one probe, like before, but build the system around the new one. Basically, remove the need to launch 4+ probes and shape a pyramid with the widgets, let us move one close-rage probe around instead of four. The new system could work like this: 1) Launch 1 DSPs(or similar long range combat probe) to check for possible targets in system. 2) If target found, launch 3 more DSPs(these could require triangulation/geometry stuff), get a rough, say 8 AU radius sphere of interest, with the location of the target somewhere inside. Each ship hit should get a unique target ID for easy tracking within the solar system. Friendly target IDs should be tagable so they can be ignored. 3) Launch 1 combat probe, set range 8 AU, move to target area. 4) New scan reveals target with 2 AU deviation within the original 8 AU sphere. 5) Resize combat probe, move to the new location and scan. 6) Depending on the signature of the ship, narrow the scan further down or warp to the target. Scan timers/strength should be balanced accordingly. This is not a rebalance proposal, but rather a game mechanic proposal to remove the most tedious parts of the current system. This system is a lot easier to balance for Greyscale, it keeps the new xyz-"space" probing feeling, and it is less frustrating to use than the current because it requires a lot less clicking and dragging, and it leaves less room for mistakes(dragging wrong widget/wrong plane). PvP probing have been forced through the Apocrypha patch without as much as an afterthought from Greyscale(evident of his posts on the dev forum). It really needs to be streamlined in order to work.
Pellit1 Caldari Bushwhackers Rough Necks	Posted - 2009.03.26 17:59:00 - [2] Agreed. The new system is excellent for exploration. It's fun and works really well. However, for PvP, it simply takes too long.
Mavrk	Posted - 2009.03.26 18:09:00 - [3] more probe whining
Pellit1 Caldari Bushwhackers Rough Necks	Posted - 2009.03.26 18:16:00 - [4] Originally by: Mavrk more probe whining I assume you're not a pvp prober.
Endless Subversion The Accursed	Posted - 2009.03.26 20:19:00 - [5] Also, while probing people at random safes is too slow, probing people on grid is too fast. Snipers using ongrid safespots to snipe larger gangs got badly hurt here.
General Esylium	Posted - 2009.03.29 11:24:00 - [6] I agree with the OP, probing now is a nightmare and it's extremely to find a ship unless the pilot is afk as he'll be warping off somewhere else before you manage to probe him. CCP, PvP probing is a key factor in this game, please fix it!
WAuter Gallente	Posted - 2009.03.29 19:36:00 - [7] I totally agree with the op. Before Apocrypha i used to probe out people on a daily basis, now it just doesn't work...i can't even catch battleships anymore! Probing someone used to be fun, you could do it in less than 27 seconds with proper skills..now i need a minute or even more to correctly place the damn probes so i can warp. BUT everytime my probes were finally placed right the next scan had no result simply because they warped off. I stopped trying this after a few days, pvp probing is broken..
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.03.29 20:38:00 - [8] I've probed in PVP and it's not nearly as bad as you say it is. You know you can hold shift to resize/move all probes at once, right?
DeTox MinRohim Madhatters Inc. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.03.30 08:43:00 - [9] Edited by: DeTox MinRohim on 30/03/2009 08:44:40 Breaking the deep and core probes after the latest patch was the cherry on top to be honest. With decent skills giving access to the deep probes, you could scan ships easily almost forgetting that you needed 3 to 5 minimum. Yesterday, I spent a few hours "trying" with the combat probes in a very big system and while I got a few mostly based on chance of having the probes at the right spot at the right time (directly on a celestial), I wasted my time usually. Note also that the combat probes are limited to 0.5AU, when you get something and can't get the 100% hit on a BC size that is in the middle of a bulk of others signatures, you don't have time for this crap (dropping another probe, and another and another). Core and deep were not even giving a hit. The situation I mean is that I got intel that a few ships were 1000km from their gang on a moon. With deep or core before the patch (or even combat), I would've found them. Now it was impossible to get them as I couldn't get the 100% and/or make the difference between them as I couldn't zoom more to see if the signature was off the middle of 100 other signatures. The distance wasn't much of help at this point. Probing an ibis with deep probes at 4AU range before the patch might have been overkill (at least it was funny), now the nerf made it just plain boring to use any of the probes. At least for Pvp. What you'll catch will mostly look like you pulled a miracle. ------ This sig space is Read-only ! omgalink - Online Skillsheet
Vladimir Norkoff Income Redistribution Service	Posted - 2009.03.30 11:06:00 - [10] Agreed. PvP probing just doesn't work with this system. If your target is even remotely aware, he'll spot the probes and move before you can narrow down the result. Maybe make all probes show up as just "Scanner Probe". That way it's not so bloody obvious that they are being hunted. I'd prefer the Combat Probes not to show up on directional at all, but that might be alot bit OP'd. Taxman VII: Kingdom of Vlad
Cadde Gallente Gene Works Initiative Associates	Posted - 2009.03.30 11:37:00 - [11] Originally by: Vladimir Norkoff Agreed. PvP probing just doesn't work with this system. If your target is even remotely aware, he'll spot the probes and move before you can narrow down the result. Maybe make all probes show up as just "Scanner Probe". That way it's not so bloody obvious that they are being hunted. I'd prefer the Combat Probes not to show up on directional at all, but that might be alot bit OP'd. The funny thing is, all probes do the same job, they just have varying warp speeds and minimum scan range. Core probes have 40 str at 0.25 AU, half that at 0.5 AU (20 str @ 0.5 AU) Combat probes have 20 str at 0.5 AU. They warp 25% faster than Core probes. You can just as easily scan ships with core probes as you can with the combat probes. As long as you don't need the 64 au range. Who uses 64 AU anyways? It's not like you are going to get more info than "The target is somewhere in a sphere with 64 AU radius" anyways. It's when you understand that all probes are the same and do the same job that you also understand that CCP could just have released ONE probe with a minimum range of 0.25 AU and max range of 256 AU. REALLY, if you don't trust me. Check for yourself. For every range increment the probes strength is cut in half while it's max deviation is doubled, do the math. Then you realize that using core probes instead of combat probes is just as an viable option. My opinions belong to me, you can't have them!
Gaogan Gallente Solar Storm Sev3rance	Posted - 2009.03.31 05:20:00 - [12] Originally by: Cadde You can just as easily scan ships with core probes as you can with the combat probes. As long as you don't need the 64 au range. Who uses 64 AU anyways? It's not like you are going to get more info than "The target is somewhere in a sphere with 64 AU radius" anyways. No you can't since core probes can not find ships at all - they are exploration only. For exploration purposes, yes, they are the same, which is kind of silly. If you bother fitting the expanded launcher and using the combat probes, they should be a little better at finding exploration sites than the easy to fit core launcher and probes.
MidNightRoD	Posted - 2009.03.31 09:17:00 - [13] Core Scanner Probes have 2x scan strength than the Combat Scanner Probes, which means they do a lot better finding cosmic signatures.
Roemy Schneider BINFORD	Posted - 2009.03.31 12:12:00 - [14] Originally by: Endless Subversion Also, while probing people at random safes is too slow, probing people on grid is too fast. Snipers using ongrid safespots to snipe larger gangs got badly hurt here. confirm current FCs sit in their cloaked cov ops, probes running, sending the ~~sheep dogs~~ fleet from hostile spot to hostile spot, aborting his own warp every time but anything apart from that gets complicated with 1) the lost features in sys map (background right click menu - yes i want to warp to my bookmarks ffs, the top left triangle does not compensate!, reset camera button not working for sys map, that sort of stuff) 2) the joyful switching of dir scanner and probe window 3) the * camera control - different mouse "sensivities"... just lovely 4) the * probe control - plz... put some more distance between arrows and boxes 5) the **************** ** * *** probe range manipulation - remove the bubble-edge-stuff and fix multi-selection in the probe window. yes, there is a workaround but sheesh... you can shove your "working as intended" bug report replies elsewhere - putting the gist back into logistics
Prince Spiderman	Posted - 2009.03.31 14:08:00 - [15] Agree 100%! The new probe system is not working effecient and fast for PvP. It's useless for this task and waste of time. I tried now several times and it's frustrating. Before you get a result most of the targets have moved.
Marlenus Caldari Ironfleet Towing And Salvage Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.03.31 15:01:00 - [16] Originally by: MidNightRoD Core Scanner Probes have 2x scan strength than the Combat Scanner Probes, which means they do a lot better finding cosmic signatures. Er, not at the same range they don't. At, say, 1AU, they have the same scan strength. It's just that combat scanner probes have a minimum range of .5AU, and core probes can be dropped to .25AU. For most cosmic signatures, if you've got scanning skills and hardware, you've got a 100% hit before you get to this point, making the probes functionally identical. ------------------ Ironfleet.com
Captain Vampire	Posted - 2009.03.31 19:33:00 - [17] Just a thought..Ship probing worked quite well with the new system before deviation was implemented. A hotfix could simply be to remove deviation/decrease it massively and increase scan time for PvP probes to compensate. Doing this will not fix the fundamental flaws of PvP probing, but it will at least improve the situation. Sniping BSs will not be probed as quickly due to longer scan timer, and finding safespotted ships gets easier due to less deviation. However, I actually prefer the old probing system over the new for PvP, as the hassle to work with the UI is simply too large. Tbh, I've had more success with the directional scanner in 0.0 with my arazu than probing when hunting ratters. This is really a shame because investing 3+ months of skill training and fitting a 220 cpu module should really improve my chances of catching my foe.
Endless Subversion The Accursed	Posted - 2009.03.31 19:52:00 - [18] The interface for pvp probing is a nightmare. It really needs some changes: 1) You need to be oriented the same way you were in space when you initially open the map. 2) You need to be able to preset scan probe formations. I spend ages dealing with the 2d view of a 3d system and dragging probes to the wrong locations because my viewpoint makes it seem correct. 3) I need to be able to use directional while I'm messing around with the silly probe boxes. 4) I need to be able to order probes to move to a celestial or SS. So that I could order my pyramid formation to center on planet 1. 5) Fix grouping probes and allow preset groups. 6) Resizing probe sizes via the map is more of a hindrance than a help as misclicking anywhere randomely resizes things, wasting even more time.
Miyamoto Isoruku Caldari Noir.	Posted - 2009.03.31 22:55:00 - [19] So, the current PVP probe system is great for probing out sniper safe spots, undock safes, etc--i.e., where you know where the enemy is close to something. Unfortunately, for an enemy that is reasonably intelligent and cycling his safes it's just too slow; there needs to be some kind of alternative. Preset shapes would help, but they aren't the be-all end-all solution. I'm honestly not sure of what would be a better way.
Deva Blackfire D00M.	Posted - 2009.03.31 23:35:00 - [20] or just bump probe strength 2x... seriously to use 0.5au to find BS is BS (and no 2nd one is not a battleship)
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.04.01 03:01:00 - [21] Originally by: DeTox MinRohim Edited by: DeTox MinRohim on 30/03/2009 08:44:40 Breaking the deep and core probes after the latest patch was the cherry on top to be honest. With decent skills giving access to the deep probes, you could scan ships easily almost forgetting that you needed 3 to 5 minimum. Yesterday, I spent a few hours "trying" with the combat probes in a very big system and while I got a few mostly based on chance of having the probes at the right spot at the right time (directly on a celestial), I wasted my time usually. Note also that the combat probes are limited to 0.5AU, when you get something and can't get the 100% hit on a BC size that is in the middle of a bulk of others signatures, you don't have time for this crap (dropping another probe, and another and another). Core and deep were not even giving a hit. The situation I mean is that I got intel that a few ships were 1000km from their gang on a moon. With deep or core before the patch (or even combat), I would've found them. Now it was impossible to get them as I couldn't get the 100% and/or make the difference between them as I couldn't zoom more to see if the signature was off the middle of 100 other signatures. The distance wasn't much of help at this point. Probing an ibis with deep probes at 4AU range before the patch might have been overkill (at least it was funny), now the nerf made it just plain boring to use any of the probes. At least for Pvp. What you'll catch will mostly look like you pulled a miracle. You could NEVER, EVER probe down ships with core probes. I regularly probe down ships with combat probes. Probing down FRIGATES even isn't that difficult if you have halfway-decent scanning skills and you know what you're doing. I can get a guaranteed hit on a BC+ with overlapping 2 AU combat probes, and it doesn't take long to position them. You're suffering because you were so used to being able to just dump a probe out with almost no skills whatsoever (player or SP) and get a hit. Now you have to be decent at it for it to work.
Baudolino Gallente Royal Crimson Lancers	Posted - 2009.04.01 11:28:00 - [22] Edited by: Baudolino on 01/04/2009 11:28:17 I`m having massive success with the new probing mechanics. I have no idea what people are griping about- just about all the last of 20 ships on my KB were killed after being probed. Most in missions, some ratting and some at SS. I carpet bomb the entire system with 8 16au deeps space probes and get 50-90% hits on the first scan- 100% hit on second or third scan. Takes 1-2 minutes to probe down mission runners for instance. generally the target won`t see his being probed either because the last positioning and scan only takes 30 seconds. When warping in, i just relocate the probes outside the targets range.. New probing mechanic is just awesome.. Now if i could only BOs into deadspace- i`d be golden..:) PS: OP sounds like a really poor prober..
Captain Vampire	Posted - 2009.04.01 14:20:00 - [23] Edited by: Captain Vampire on 01/04/2009 14:21:35 Originally by: Baudolino Edited by: Baudolino on 01/04/2009 11:28:17 I`m having massive success with the new probing mechanics. I have no idea what people are griping about- just about all the last of 20 ships on my KB were killed after being probed. Most in missions, some ratting and some at SS. I carpet bomb the entire system with 8 16au deeps space probes and get 50-90% hits on the first scan- 100% hit on second or third scan. Takes 1-2 minutes to probe down mission runners for instance. generally the target won`t see his being probed either because the last positioning and scan only takes 30 seconds. When warping in, i just relocate the probes outside the targets range.. New probing mechanic is just awesome.. Now if i could only BOs into deadspace- i`d be golden..:) PS: OP sounds like a really poor prober.. Have you probed with the latest nerf to DPSs? Probed cruisers? Do you really get 50-90% hits at 16 AU, or is that just a random number you pull out of a hat? And tbh, you really sounds like a really poor reader. I don't complain about the balance, but rather the horrible mechanics and the "drag'n'drop till you die" UI.
DeTox MinRohim Madhatters Inc. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.04.01 14:39:00 - [24] Edited by: DeTox MinRohim on 01/04/2009 14:45:19 Originally by: Kahega Amielden You could NEVER, EVER probe down ships with core probes. I regularly probe down ships with combat probes. Probing down FRIGATES even isn't that difficult if you have halfway-decent scanning skills and you know what you're doing. I can get a guaranteed hit on a BC+ with overlapping 2 AU combat probes, and it doesn't take long to position them. You're suffering because you were so used to being able to just dump a probe out with almost no skills whatsoever (player or SP) and get a hit. Now you have to be decent at it for it to work. You sure didn't read what I wrote. Not that I would either. I said "WHEN" you can't get... in the middle of a bulk of others. Never said I never got any hits. Stop using the one ratter/missioner example against a fleet situation. Do your thing in a 250AU system, find your BC (while not being on the same grid) in the middle of a 200 men fleet. Sometimes, just so you know, the distance column is lying. Have fun in that bubble. (Note that it was a 5 minutes situation... 5 minutes later, I was on the grid of the fleet so found the off-grid safespotter). My skills are fine thank you. A mechanic that would allow grouping probes would be nice. You can move probes all at the same time but if you have 2 batches at 2 different places, they all move. Bit annoying. ------ This sig space is Read-only ! omgalink - Online Skillsheet
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2009.04.01 14:47:00 - [25] Originally by: DeTox MinRohim Originally by: Kahega Amielden You could NEVER, EVER probe down ships with core probes. You're suffering because you were so used to being able to just dump a probe out with almost no skills whatsoever (player or SP) and get a hit. Now you have to be decent at it for it to work. You sure didn't read what I wrote. Not that I would either. I said "WHEN" you can't get... in the middle of a bulk of others. Never said I never got any hits. Actually, you clearly stated that you never got hits on a BC with core and DS: Originally by: DeTox MinRohim Core and deep were not even giving a hit [on a BC size ship]. Fail.
DeTox MinRohim Madhatters Inc. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.04.01 15:00:00 - [26] Edited by: DeTox MinRohim on 01/04/2009 15:02:17 Aw right, guess the trolling mode is on... Originally by: Gypsio III Originally by: DeTox MinRohim I said "WHEN" you can't get... in the middle of a bulk of others. Never said I never got any hits. <- Note the . "dot" wich didn't imply that I was necessarily using the core/dps when I said that. My fail for confusing you Actually, you clearly stated that you never got hits on a BC with core and DS: Originally by: DeTox MinRohim Core and deep were not even giving a hit [on a BC size ship]. Fail. Should've mentioned a 100% for DPS obviously, wasn't aware of the subtle change it went after the latest patch... my fail for confusing you again. Here's a cookie (*) ------ This sig space is Read-only ! omgalink - Online Skillsheet
Jason Edwards Internet Tough Guy	Posted - 2009.04.01 15:02:00 - [27] Exploration. Works great. Combat. In my opinion it's improved alot. You actually know for sure something is there. Much faster to scan down mission runners and such. On the otherhand. SS busting is next to impossible now. Unless the person basically went to ss and isnt moving. Cycling SS basically means you CANT be found. You dont even need to cycle quickly. Kind of reverse in my opinion. SS busting should be super easy and quick. While mission runners are fairly hard to catch. How to fix? Well you can ofcoarse go back to 1 probe. That'd easily fix things. Kind of odd though. In the whole system and all. On the otherhand you could just create sort of default patterns. You launch X probes. X pattern appears. You move that 1 pattern accordingly. Same effect as just the 1 probes. Except using multiple. ------------------------ To make a megathron from scratch, you must first invent the eve universe. ------------------------ Life sucks and then you get podded.
DeTox MinRohim Madhatters Inc. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.04.01 15:09:00 - [28] Busting safe was easy before the latest changes with DPS or even now with combat in a rather small/medium system. As said up there, was even a bit overkill. In a big system... tedious. ------ This sig space is Read-only ! omgalink - Online Skillsheet
Roemy Schneider BINFORD	Posted - 2009.04.01 15:18:00 - [29] well... "big system" now starts at ~5AU - putting the gist back into logistics
DeTox MinRohim Madhatters Inc. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.04.01 15:22:00 - [30] Edited by: DeTox MinRohim on 01/04/2009 15:22:29 Originally by: Roemy Schneider well... "big system" now starts at ~5AU True ------ This sig space is Read-only ! omgalink - Online Skillsheet

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