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Issler Dainze Minmatar Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord	Posted - 2009.03.28 23:39:00 - [1] Hello, After taking some time to reflect on comments both in forums and conveyed directly about my proposal for a political party to represent the players often described as "carebears" I have decided to run for the third Council for Stellar Management. I will be doing this to guaranty that the proposed "Voice of Reason" party will have a candidate in the elections. I will be driving party focused dialogs to establish the core tenants of this political organization. At this time I have not formally submitted my application for the election but will complete that in time to comply with the deadline. First steps now will be to establish the party and develop the political process to create our visions. These early steps will include: 1. Creation of party forums and website. 2. Establishment of the process to join. 3. Establishment of the party "planks". 4. A virtual party convention. 5. Pre-election activities to raise visibility and participation. Other early activities will be creation of logo and selection of a slogan for the party for this election. I want to make it clear that other candidates can join this party and process if they commit to the part values. If prior to the election we determine that the party needs to field a reduced set of candidates or even a single candidate I support the idea of an election as part of the virtual convention to select the candidates the party will vote for (I will gladly submit to another candidate if the party determines that this will best represent their interests in the CSM process). So I hope many of you will join me in this new experiment in Eve politics. Issler Dainze CEO Tadakatsu Obata Corporation Founder of the Honda Accord CSM II Member Founder of the Eve "Voice of Reason" Party
Sky Grunthor Minmatar The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc. Balance of Judgment	Posted - 2009.03.29 21:46:00 - [2] Edited by: Sky Grunthor on 29/03/2009 21:57:31 Edited by: Sky Grunthor on 29/03/2009 21:46:19 Question: In what way do you see the establishment of a political party as having any effect in a non-binding advisory body such as the CSM. You've indicated that you put some thought into doing this and I'm wondering how this will actually matter. What are you thoughts madam? EDIT: apologies, didn't see the party post before putting question here. If you like you can direct your response there. ------------------------------------------------- Search: Sky Grunthor
Issler Dainze Minmatar Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord	Posted - 2009.03.30 02:38:00 - [3] I am hoping that the formation of a party will increase the visibility of the CSM. I also believe that while I have some ideas about what makes sense for the folks I will (or whoever the party ultimately supports) represent adding additional channels of communications and opportunities for participation will improve the input for this constituency into the CSM. This is very much an experiment. I was partly inspired to take this course after some conversations with folks in CCP about this interesting venture into virtual world politics. I am excited to see how this unfolds. So I'd love to continue hear what folks think. Issler
Iwant Urstuff Amarr Iwant Urstuff Corp	Posted - 2009.04.02 12:21:00 - [4] I woke up all happy and twinkly I'd and what do I see? Thiz. Now I am all deprezzed. MSC eht ot etadidnac P&C suopmoP niatpaC rof etoV
Vuk Lau 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.04.02 13:02:00 - [5] Good delegate, was pleasure working with Michelle in CSM 2, and I hope we will continue our work together in CSM 3.
Issler Dainze Minmatar Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord	Posted - 2009.04.02 15:59:00 - [6] Originally by: Iwant Urstuff I woke up all happy and twinkly I'd and what do I see? Thiz. Now I am all deprezzed. It was a tough decision to run again knowing this would upset you "stuff". I think with some counciling and a keyboard with a healthy "z" key you can get through this largely intact. Issler
Dorian Tats	Posted - 2009.04.02 19:39:00 - [7] Ok I'll play. But I don't do bake sales. Do I need to find my copy of Roberts rules now? I kid. Originally by: Issler Dainze First steps now will be to establish the party and develop the political process to create our visions. These early steps will include: 1. Creation of party forums and website. 2. Establishment of the process to join. 3. Establishment of the party "planks". 4. A virtual party convention. 5. Pre-election activities to raise visibility and participation. Other early activities will be creation of logo and selection of a slogan for the party for this election
Issler Dainze Minmatar Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord	Posted - 2009.04.02 20:47:00 - [8] So I should have a web page and forums up some time this weekend. Issler
Fi Vantage Minmatar New Ligion	Posted - 2009.04.03 05:53:00 - [9] So what do the 'carebears' you represent not have that you and your party think they should, and why are these things important for Eve to be more fun while being profitable as opposed to just simply making life easier in general? (Note, I'm not saying making life easier is bad, Just that it's the fun and opportunities that's important and not the lowering of risk in general).
Niskin Minmatar The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc. Balance of Judgment	Posted - 2009.04.03 15:24:00 - [10] Carebears don't need anything specific, mainly because they get everything that everybody else gets, they just choose to avoid the many risks that are available in the game. Heck sometimes I go carebear for a month or so and putz around in empire with almost no risk. The difference is that when something is on the line, like a reinforced POS or an offensive operation I do my best to be there. What is the point of making money and buying ships if they just sit in a hangar for a rainy day that never comes? Of course everybody is free to play how they want to, but if people are going to avoid portions of the game then I don't think it gives them a well rounded opinion that is conducive to giving input on improvements. I like the idea of political parties, but I think a carebear party is going to be about as popular as, well... carebears. ------------- I am the n00b that time forgot.
Issler Dainze Minmatar Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord	Posted - 2009.04.03 17:00:00 - [11] Originally by: Fi Vantage So what do the 'carebears' you represent not have that you and your party think they should, and why are these things important for Eve to be more fun while being profitable as opposed to just simply making life easier in general? (Note, I'm not saying making life easier is bad, Just that it's the fun and opportunities that's important and not the lowering of risk in general). So it isn't always about "not having" something currently. It is often about making sure what exists remains. CCP is buried in the shouts of hundreds of different views of what Eve should become. This party seeks to make sure the voice of the "carebear" is clearly heard by CCP as they shape our futures. Thanks for the question! Issler
Issler Dainze Minmatar Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord	Posted - 2009.04.03 17:53:00 - [12] Originally by: Niskin Carebears don't need anything specific, mainly because they get everything that everybody else gets, they just choose to avoid the many risks that are available in the game. Heck sometimes I go carebear for a month or so and putz around in empire with almost no risk. The difference is that when something is on the line, like a reinforced POS or an offensive operation I do my best to be there. What is the point of making money and buying ships if they just sit in a hangar for a rainy day that never comes? Of course everybody is free to play how they want to, but if people are going to avoid portions of the game then I don't think it gives them a well rounded opinion that is conducive to giving input on improvements. I like the idea of political parties, but I think a carebear party is going to be about as popular as, well... carebears. Lots of folks like to think carebears won't fight if they are attacked. I know that isn't true. Many of them can defend themselves. They just choose not to be agressive towards other pilots in a combat sense. Now many of those same carebears will smack around other players in the markets without blinking, which is a whole other discussion. :-) It's funny you imply carebears aren't popular. Maybe not among the vocal minority that posts here in the forums, but carebears are the majority in Eve. Something folks tend to ignore. Issler
Dorian Tats	Posted - 2009.04.03 18:48:00 - [13] I really can't fathom why their is so much resistance to this idea from people who, I assume, wouldn't be part of the represented demographic anyhow......
Niskin Minmatar The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc. Balance of Judgment	Posted - 2009.04.03 20:09:00 - [14] Originally by: Issler Dainze Lots of folks like to think carebears won't fight if they are attacked. I know that isn't true. Many of them can defend themselves. They just choose not to be agressive towards other pilots in a combat sense. To which I would ask, what is the point of making money and buying ships if it's just a +1 to your hangar? I can see stocking supplies for the random empire war dec situation but otherwise it's just more stuff they spent time earning and have no use for. Originally by: Issler Dainze Now many of those same carebears will smack around other players in the markets without blinking, which is a whole other discussion. :-) We've discussed that before, market pvp might provide some excitement and definitely is good for making cash but in the end it goes back to my first point. What good is having 10b or 50b when the end result is the equivalent of being "all dressed up with nowhere to go". Originally by: Issler Dainze It's funny you imply carebears aren't popular. Maybe not among the vocal minority that posts here in the forums, but carebears are the majority in Eve. Something folks tend to ignore. Issler It's possible they could be the majority but it's also possible they are all in a coma from boredom and that's why they don't post here. This thread has been particularly quiet after all. So let me ask it directly, why do carebears play this game anyway? What are they getting out of it? I mean if all I ever did was mine and mission I'd go crazy. It would be the same if all I did was PvP. It's not about one or the other but that one supports the other. I mine and mission to buy ships to pvp with, then I lose them and repeat the process. ------------- I am the n00b that time forgot.
Maxmillion Ex Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord	Posted - 2009.04.03 20:32:00 - [15] Niskin, You trolled the last thread Issler was active in for quite some time, and had all the room to ask as many philosophical questions as you wanted there. I do not believe it is Isslers role to explain her definition of the people who will support her. Whether a "carebear" describes themselves as industrialist, high sec dweller, or simply someone who refuses to PvP, does not matter. All that matters is there are those with whom Isslers words resonate. They may choose to vote for her, as we know you shall not. If you have a specific issue with something Issler has pushed forth to CCP, raise it by all means. If she has done anything contradictory in her term to what she said she would do while running, bring that up as well. I see no reason for anyone to waste their time convincing someone who disagrees with them that one way or another is "right".
Issler Dainze Minmatar Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord	Posted - 2009.04.03 20:33:00 - [16] Originally by: Niskin So let me ask it directly, why do carebears play this game anyway? What are they getting out of it? I mean if all I ever did was mine and mission I'd go crazy. It would be the same if all I did was PvP. It's not about one or the other but that one supports the other. I mine and mission to buy ships to pvp with, then I lose them and repeat the process. Niskin, you show clearly why there needs to be someone that is the voice of "carebears" in Eve. The fact you can't imagine how someone could enjoy Eve in some manner other than how you enjoy makes my point. Lots of folks find life in Eve wonderful doing all those things you can't appreciate. So I want to make sure they get to continue enjoying what they enjoy, and just as importantly, that you get to continue to enjoy what it is you enjoy. Thanks for the civil discussion of important questions. Hopefully others will take the time to offer opinions or pose questions about points already made. Issler
Maxmillion Ex Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord	Posted - 2009.04.03 20:34:00 - [17] Originally by: Dorian Tats I really can't fathom why their is so much resistance to this idea from people who, I assume, wouldn't be part of the represented demographic anyhow...... Because their ideas are more likely to prevail if they can suppress another demographic which is likely to oppose them.
Dorian Tats	Posted - 2009.04.03 21:24:00 - [18] Originally by: Maxmillion Ex Because their ideas are more likely to prevail if they can suppress another demographic which is likely to oppose them. Because at some point Isslar said something about "suppressing" those who oppose them?
Issler Dainze Minmatar Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord	Posted - 2009.04.03 21:49:00 - [19] Originally by: Dorian Tats Originally by: Maxmillion Ex Because their ideas are more likely to prevail if they can suppress another demographic which is likely to oppose them. Because at some point Isslar said something about "suppressing" those who oppose them? Uhm, no, I have never suggested suppressing anyone's voice. I think what Max is trying to say is the folks that would not be represented by the "Voice of Reason" party are commenting negatively about the idea of a party as an attempt to suppress the voice of the members of the party. Issler
Niskin Minmatar The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc. Balance of Judgment	Posted - 2009.04.03 23:52:00 - [20] Ok, I'll rephrase then... What are the things that you are afraid people will try to take away from you? All I'm saying is that I can't possibly understand how somebody who just ice mines all the time doesn't go mad with boredom, not that I'm saying you do or anything, that's just an example. I've continuously stated that I don't have a problem with said ice miner doing so to his/her hearts content. I'm simply asking you to explain what you plan to accomplish with this party, more specifically than "to protect the carebears". ------------- I am the n00b that time forgot.
Issler Dainze Minmatar Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord	Posted - 2009.04.04 01:20:00 - [21] Originally by: Niskin Ok, I'll rephrase then... What are the things that you are afraid people will try to take away from you? All I'm saying is that I can't possibly understand how somebody who just ice mines all the time doesn't go mad with boredom, not that I'm saying you do or anything, that's just an example. I've continuously stated that I don't have a problem with said ice miner doing so to his/her hearts content. I'm simply asking you to explain what you plan to accomplish with this party, more specifically than "to protect the carebears". Fair question Niskin. So the party would in theory provide continuity in CSM representation over time. As the specific goals of the party, think about CCP development as a big piece of pie (we all like pie!). The party will try and make sure that the constituency of the party continues to get a reasonable piece of the feature pie. As to the "not going crazy thing, carebears have LOTS of things to keep them busy and happy, mining, building, trade, exploration, missions, POS management, ratting, role playing, being stuck in Jita (OK, not a good thing), running corporations, the list goes on. My favorite is Bantam Ball! Issler
Cipher7	Posted - 2009.04.04 19:39:00 - [22] In Eve war is three dimensional not just 1. Someone can carebear hardcore for months and then use the proceeds to hire mercs to grief your corp. People who are too stupid to understand concepts like "the Pen is mightier than the sword" really don't belong in Eve IMO, they belong in some jacka$$ game like WoW where only button-mashing matters. Eve is hyped as some kind of intellectual Shangri-La but there are so many low IQ mouthbreathers here, who don't understand the first thing about the relationship between War, Business and Industry. To me being Gordon Gekko is cool. In RL I am fascinated by Economics. I love business. I love small business. I love big business. I love IPO's and I love watching Jim Kramer on CNBC. "Can I get a booya, Jim" My favorite developer is Dr Eyjo and my fondest wish is for some kind of stock market. I know some informal stock markets exist but I want a real in-game one. Maybe some kind of commodity trading where the price of commodities changes every DT, like maybe some planet had a drought and they need water, so the price of water goes up, stuff like that. I wanna be like the main character in "Lord of War" where there's 18,000 people fighting over a region, and I'm the guy selling them ammo. Or maybe the marketing guy that does the recruiting posters like "Uncle Sam needs YOU! Enlist today!" sending fresh meat into Delve at 10 mil isk per head. And having the guy I sent over buy ammo from me. And using the proceeds to buy more stock. And using the dividends to hire mercs to grief people I don't like. You call that boring, I call that the ultimate gaming experience. ---
Issler Dainze Minmatar Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord	Posted - 2009.04.04 20:57:00 - [23] Originally by: Cipher7 a bunch of really smart and insightful stuff I like how you think Cipher7! Issler
Niskin Minmatar The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc. Balance of Judgment	Posted - 2009.04.06 18:29:00 - [24] Originally by: Cipher7 In Eve war is three dimensional not just 1. Someone can carebear hardcore for months and then use the proceeds to hire mercs to grief your corp. People who are too stupid to understand concepts like "the Pen is mightier than the sword" really don't belong in Eve IMO, they belong in some jacka$$ game like WoW where only button-mashing matters. Eve is hyped as some kind of intellectual Shangri-La but there are so many low IQ mouthbreathers here, who don't understand the first thing about the relationship between War, Business and Industry. To me being Gordon Gekko is cool. In RL I am fascinated by Economics. I love business. I love small business. I love big business. I love IPO's and I love watching Jim Kramer on CNBC. "Can I get a booya, Jim" My favorite developer is Dr Eyjo and my fondest wish is for some kind of stock market. I know some informal stock markets exist but I want a real in-game one. Maybe some kind of commodity trading where the price of commodities changes every DT, like maybe some planet had a drought and they need water, so the price of water goes up, stuff like that. I wanna be like the main character in "Lord of War" where there's 18,000 people fighting over a region, and I'm the guy selling them ammo. Or maybe the marketing guy that does the recruiting posters like "Uncle Sam needs YOU! Enlist today!" sending fresh meat into Delve at 10 mil isk per head. And having the guy I sent over buy ammo from me. And using the proceeds to buy more stock. And using the dividends to hire mercs to grief people I don't like. You call that boring, I call that the ultimate gaming experience. Yeah it does sound a bit boring but then I see how it would be exciting to people who are interested in that stuff. The part I was looking for was "what do you do with the resulting pile of money?" to which you answered "hire mercs to grief people I don't like". I don't see a problem with that, it completes the cycle. You are using your money to cause ships to explode which feeds the economy and keeps it going. The reason I asked originally, and in this thread specifically, is that Issler takes a more non-combative approach so I was curious what the point of having all that money was from her perspective. ------------- I am the n00b that time forgot.
Niskin Minmatar The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc. Balance of Judgment	Posted - 2009.04.06 18:52:00 - [25] Originally by: Issler Dainze Fair question Niskin. So the party would in theory provide continuity in CSM representation over time. As the specific goals of the party, think about CCP development as a big piece of pie (we all like pie!). The party will try and make sure that the constituency of the party continues to get a reasonable piece of the feature pie. As to the "not going crazy thing, carebears have LOTS of things to keep them busy and happy, mining, building, trade, exploration, missions, POS management, ratting, role playing, being stuck in Jita (OK, not a good thing), running corporations, the list goes on. My favorite is Bantam Ball! Issler Ok that's a little more descriptive but I still see an issue. In your list of things to do to not go crazy, only one of them is exclusive to carebears... Bantam Ball. In addition to that I don't see much on that list that is actually fun in a repeatable sense. Role playing could be a genuine source of fun, so could Bantam Ball, but those other activities will get more boring with each execution. Running a mission or two is fun, running 10 gets old fast. The same goes for all that other stuff, most people do them to make money to do something else with that money. That's kind of a tangent though, not the actual point here. The point is that there should be no fear of any of those activities being messed with by CCP because those are things everybody has to do to exist/survive in EVE. That is what I'm trying to point out to you. We all participate in those activities and then take the money and do something with it. I buy ships, that guy above buys merc contracts... I'm still trying to understand what you do with yours. Maybe you truly love mining or managing POS's, maybe the money means nothing to you, you just like delivering fuel and dragging ore/ice into a can every few minutes. I'll say it right here, I can't understand how, but maybe you do. See I'm back on the tangent again, because it is actually that unfathomable. ------------- I am the n00b that time forgot.
maya ibuki2 THORN Syndicate Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2009.04.06 22:00:00 - [26] Edited by: maya ibuki2 on 06/04/2009 22:07:54 Originally by: Maxmillion Ex Niskin, You trolled the last thread Issler was active in for quite some time, and had all the room to ask as many philosophical questions as you wanted there. I do not believe it is Isslers role to explain her definition of the people who will support her. Whether a "carebear" describes themselves as industrialist, high sec dweller, or simply someone who refuses to PvP, does not matter. All that matters is there are those with whom Isslers words resonate. They may choose to vote for her, as we know you shall not. If you have a specific issue with something Issler has pushed forth to CCP, raise it by all means. If she has done anything contradictory in her term to what she said she would do while running, bring that up as well. I see no reason for anyone to waste their time convincing someone who disagrees with them that one way or another is "right". i beg to differ. i also dare you to try and find any political movement or party or organisation that has ever existed irl, or has ever been concieved of in a piece of fiction of any format, that does not have a clear definition of its goals and what constitutes the parameters within which one needs to be to be considered part of that party/movement/ideology. i think youll have a very hard time of it. if issler desires to form a psuedo-political bloc amongst the eve community, then she needs to provide a manifesto of its aims, and what constitutes the limits of its membership. it is also utterly irrelevant who is right in an argument regarding political ideology. issler stated she wants to give carebears a voice (or words to that effect) to mediate the disproportionate influence of the pvpers on the eve-o forums, for fear of said voice having a negative influence on the non-combative aspects of eve life. as such what we need from her, if we, and she, are gonna be able to post constructively or act constructively, is a working definition and plan of what she intends to do, how she intends to work, and what exact qualities she is looking to provide a representative body for. imho, the group of people im assuming she refers to as carebears do not need any kind of political representation beyond a voice regarding the economic aspects of eve, say, for example, petitioning to balance certain market forces which damage the experience of eve as a whole (wouldnt know what they are myself, as im not an industrialist). this idea i have no problem with, as 'bearing is essential to the way eve works. without miners and industrialists this game would be deader than aristotle for want of isk flow and material. as it is right now that view wont change simply because issler and you have not, as of yet, provided enough meat on the bones of your idea for me to make an informed opinion. maya ibuki2-currently thorn alliance pvper, proud member of the 54th knights templar and genral shooty type
Maxmillion Ex Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord	Posted - 2009.04.06 23:29:00 - [27] Originally by: maya ibuki2 i beg to differ. i also dare you to try and find any political movement or party or organisation that has ever existed irl, or has ever been concieved of in a piece of fiction of any format, that does not have a clear definition of its goals and what constitutes the parameters within which one needs to be to be considered part of that party/movement/ideology. i think youll have a very hard time of it. if issler desires to form a psuedo-political bloc amongst the eve community, then she needs to provide a manifesto of its aims, and what constitutes the limits of its membership. it is also utterly irrelevant who is right in an argument regarding political ideology. issler stated she wants to give carebears a voice (or words to that effect) to mediate the disproportionate influence of the pvpers on the eve-o forums, for fear of said voice having a negative influence on the non-combative aspects of eve life. as such what we need from her, if we, and she, are gonna be able to post constructively or act constructively, is a working definition and plan of what she intends to do, how she intends to work, and what exact qualities she is looking to provide a representative body for. imho, the group of people im assuming she refers to as carebears do not need any kind of political representation beyond a voice regarding the economic aspects of eve, say, for example, petitioning to balance certain market forces which damage the experience of eve as a whole (wouldnt know what they are myself, as im not an industrialist). this idea i have no problem with, as 'bearing is essential to the way eve works. without miners and industrialists this game would be deader than aristotle for want of isk flow and material. as it is right now that view wont change simply because issler and you have not, as of yet, provided enough meat on the bones of your idea for me to make an informed opinion. Feel free to ask her specific questions if you want to make a more informed decision. I believe she said a website was in progress, and she has a voting record out there already from CSM 2.0. Also, her "voice of Reason" party is not all that far fetched, because I believe most "reasonable" people whom she wishes to represent, hold "reasonable" complaints with most other candidates. Take for example the overwhelming trend this time around for every C&P celebrity to try and run, promoting game breaking mechanics often. A small example: Istvaan Asteroids bleeding? Bribing concord? This doesn't get much more one sided, and if looking through Isslers voting history has told me anything... it's that not only does she have an interest for people who arn't C&P regulars, she also has a clear idea of good game mechanics for everyone. I see a problem with forcing definitions on people, "if you don't mine more than 20 hours a week you're not a carebear" ... or is it "if more than 50% of your time is spent in high sec" ... or "if you havn't collected 20 killmails in the last week" ...? The definition is meaningless, when the goal of the party is to protect a wide range of activities. What activities exactly? I believe if you refer to post #1, point #3, she asked for collaboration on exactly what these core ideas could be.
maya ibuki2 THORN Syndicate Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2009.04.07 12:21:00 - [28] i would say that istvaan in no way represents pvpers. to my understanding the vast majority of pvp is alliance/FW level, wether it be small gangs or multiple fleet engagements the likes of which where seen during the MAX campaign and the 2 assaults on delve (dine in NOL and all that) what the likes of istvaan represent are pirates/griefers etc, which afaik are a small proportion of the pvp community. i also doubt very much that istvaan is in any way serious about applying to the CSM. and ultimately, i would still disagree on the definition thing. not only is it infact necessary (as i said, you cannot have a political bloc without definition, even the politically apathetic can be defined as not giving a damn) but its an innate mode of human understanding. we define and limit and construct opinions almost before we consider the object of that definition. and as a complete aside, i would think a voice of reason party would, in honesty, be looking to create a mediated political organisation, representing all different views as equally as possible, but that would be horrifyingly democratic, so i wont go there maya ibuki2-currently thorn alliance pvper, proud member of the 54th knights templar and genral shooty type
Maxmillion Ex Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord	Posted - 2009.04.08 23:56:00 - [29] Originally by: maya ibuki2 ... and ultimately, i would still disagree on the definition thing. not only is it infact necessary (as i said, you cannot have a political bloc without definition, even the politically apathetic can be defined as not giving a damn) but its an innate mode of human understanding. we define and limit and construct opinions almost before we consider the object of that definition. ... Originally by: Maxmillion Ex I believe if you refer to post #1, point #3, she asked for collaboration on exactly what these core ideas could be. Let's please keep this on track, I am not here to hijack this thread and I don't intend on helping anyone else do so either. The bottom line is Issler represents a point of view which many people appreciate. She opened up this thread to suggestions and discussions. Attacking her for not defining specifics at this point seems counter productive to her own currently defined goals of open discussion.
Dorian Tats	Posted - 2009.04.09 19:52:00 - [30] Quote: i beg to differ. i also dare you to try and find any political movement or party or organisation that has ever existed irl, or has ever been concieved of in a piece of fiction of any format, that does not have a clear definition of its goals and what constitutes the parameters within which one needs to be to be considered part of that party/movement/ideology. Libertarians. Too easy. I crack me up.

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