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Old timer rants about the state of eve pvp

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Salient Soldier Minmatar Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams	Posted - 2009.03.29 23:21:00 - [1] Been playing eve since beta.. blah blah blah.. i think i know something about something so lets get on with it. Risk versus Reward For years now, the risk in 0.0 (for the common player) has been in serious decline. The small roaming gang's ability to infiltrate and kill carebears is at an all time low. The risk in the equation of carebearing in 0.0 has always been other players. In todays eve however, that risk is negated by the following: carebears have... ctrl-q local chat pos's intel channels ss + cloak large mobile bubbles jump bridges warp core stabs stations blockade runners jump freighters small roaming gangs have.. dir scan probes... sort of. Conquerable space in 0.0 is the end game in eve and it is what truly makes eve stand out among the rest. But there must be some way to to bring small roaming gangs back in such a way to coexist with the end game. So here are some changes i believe are absolutely necessary: Make Ctrl-Q no longer a ôget out of jail freeö card. How? Remove emergency warp from 0.0. Warp disruption activates the 15m aggression timer ( goes for rats too ) A delay in local registry according to ship size. Frigs, 10s delay (maybe 20s for cov ops, give them time to probe) Cruiser, 5s Everything else, instant. Other changes that would bring the risk back to 0.0 Increase the frequency of warp scramming rats. Lower the fitting requirements for the extended probe launcher. Ships in POS shield dont appear on the dir scanner. Changes that will never happen, but oh would i love it so POS's no longer safe, no pos shields , no guns able to hit cruiser sized ships, no pos ecm/web/neut Fire and forget hunter probes expansion of faction 0.0 Old rants i want to briefly mention again Reduce sec status loss in low sec to stimulate more low sec pvp Titans and jump bridges are a deterrent to pvp = bad The dumbing down of remote rep, colors (blue/green) on target icons and warnings for accidental friendly fire. ôSal, you've got wormhole space now, arent you happy with that?ö I dont hate wormhole space, but the main problem is I dont want to play the ôscan probe minigameö for hours finding wormholes that go to random systems in the hope to maybe find someone to attack. I do like the random links into 0.0, great way to negate the intel channel advantage at least for the first couple of systems you hit. WH space is a great distraction from the fact that 0.0 is still fubar.
Valandril Caldari Ex-Mortis	Posted - 2009.03.29 23:32:00 - [2] I agree with most changes but i definitly disgree with removing pos shields (in exchange i'm into nerfing local instantess even more) because there should be safe way to logoff. As for logoff method, stop making it instant, instead your ship is laying in space (aggressed or not) for lets say 15 minutes (if within posshields i don't mind for this to be instant) in which it may be probed and killed. Also pos guns arleady got a nerf, you can't just fit antyallpurpose POS, you have to choose between caps, battleships or support. Please resize sig to a maximum of 400 x 120 - Mitnal lemme go for that 8 pixels - val
Minerva IV Caldari Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams	Posted - 2009.03.29 23:33:00 - [3] Crymore carebear.... oh wait i mean /signed Also remove combat probes from dir scan
OZEPATHAN Gallente Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams	Posted - 2009.03.30 00:59:00 - [4] I'd like to see 0.0 local made the same way as the WH local. The only time you'd appear in it is when you talk.
Lord Wilding Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams	Posted - 2009.03.30 01:04:00 - [5] I agree with a lot of this. You know things are getting bad when there is more risk trying to kill a carebear than there is a carebear trying to kill you due to game mechanics.
rogue trdr	Posted - 2009.03.30 01:36:00 - [6] Definately remove the Ctrl-Q get out of jail free. Way I see it, if somthing is pointed, it shouldnt be able to warp out no matter what you do (exepting putting say 6 warp core stabs on a raven)
Leviathani Darkri The Panopticon	Posted - 2009.03.30 02:55:00 - [7] /signed
Neurotic Cat Gallente Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams	Posted - 2009.03.30 14:58:00 - [8] I have a better idea: just set the sec status of all empire systems to 0.0 Good Times!
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.03.30 18:04:00 - [9] Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 30/03/2009 18:06:52 Quote: A delay in local registry according to ship size. Frigs, 10s delay (maybe 20s for cov ops, give them time to probe) Cruiser, 5s Everything else, instant. Just add full delayed mode local. Yes, that means you'll have to scan for your targets. Quote: Make Ctrl-Q no longer a ôget out of jail freeö card. How? Remove emergency warp from 0.0. Warp disruption activates the 15m aggression timer ( goes for rats too ) if you aggro someone before they can fully emergency warp, they get the aggro timer and sit in space for 15 mins. That's more than enough time to probe and annihilate the guy. Quote: Increase the frequency of warp scramming rats. Lower the fitting requirements for the extended probe launcher. Ships in POS shield dont appear on the dir scanner. Increase cloaking device fitting requirements. Remove combat probes from dir scan. -A few more warpscram rats wouldn't be bad -Extended probe launcher is fine as is. What, your roaming gang can't bring a scout now? -I love the D-scanner because it actually requires skill. Dumbing it down by removing erroneous hits (e.g. making you have to actually SEARCH FOR YOUR TARGET WTFOMG) would be great -Cloak is fine. They can just as easily log off, or warp between safespots -Remove combat probes from D-scan? Are you **ing nuts? You're not looking to bring more risk into 0.0, you're looking to TOTALLY REMOVING EVERY SINGLE OPTION your prey has of escaping you. Quote: POS's no longer safe, no pos shields , no guns able to hit cruiser sized ships, no pos ecm/web/neut Fire and forget hunter probes expansion of faction 0.0 All except the expansion of faction 0.0 are horrid ideas Quote: Reduce sec status loss in low sec to stimulate more low sec pvp Titans and jump bridges are a deterrent to pvp = bad The dumbing down of remote rep, colors (blue/green) on target icons and warnings for accidental friendly fire. Sec status loss is fine. It's one of the protections afforded in lowsec. The problem is that there's no reason to be in lowsec for profit, so no one goes there except to shoot people I'm neutral to titans/jump bridges I don't see what you're ***ing about with that last sentence TL;DR you're not interested in game balance, you're interested in effortless ganks with no thought on your part.
Salient Soldier Minmatar Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams	Posted - 2009.03.30 20:32:00 - [10] Sir, im sure you wrote this reply while sitting cloaked at a safe spot... Small roaming gangs usually consist of a handful of ints/hacs/recons out looking for a few ganks. I'm not here to debate ganking/griefing but the fact is the risk involved in carebearing in 0.0 is being ganked. Right now there is a huge imbalance, as i listed, between the gankers and the gankees. I'm not saying my ideas are perfect, yet this imbalance needs to be addressed. Heres the thing about probes and why they arent useful in small roaming gangs: either someone has to drop out of their "fun ship" and roll in a cov ops to be useful for the off chance someone sits at a safe spot without a cloak and doesnt have a pos to warp to. Chances are with current game mechanics this person has already ctrl-q'd. So of course no one wants to roll in a cov ops on these ops. Now someone could drag along a probing alt, but anyone thats been on a long roam knows its a painful experience to drag 2 accounts throughout the universe. Especially when you have to run from various blobs coming after you. So yes i think extended probe launchers should be easier to fit. HONESTLY, i dont see why starships aren't equipped with probe like sensors to begin with. Heres this tiny little probe that somehow has more scanning power than my giant starship. TBPFH, 3-4 starships should be able to triangulate someones location the same way probes do.

Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.03.30 20:46:00 - [11] Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 30/03/2009 20:48:52 Quote: Sir, im sure you wrote this reply while sitting cloaked at a safe spot... Run a locator agent on me. Quote: Small roaming gangs usually consist of a handful of ints/hacs/recons out looking for a few ganks. I'm not here to debate ganking/griefing but the fact is the risk involved in carebearing in 0.0 is being ganked. Yes, and the chance of you being ganked should depend on how skilled the ganker is vs how aware/smart the potential victim is. You're asking for a guaranteed gank on anyone in system with no chance of escape. Quote: Right now there is a huge imbalance, as i listed, between the gankers and the gankees. I'm not saying my ideas are perfect, yet this imbalance needs to be addressed. Read my post again, I agreed with quite a bit of what you said. Also, sov mechanics (So that one giant bloc can't control a ridiculous amount of empty space) could be changed to facilitate this again. I like ganking. I also like the ability for a skilled ratter to avoid ganking if the ganker is not up to par. Quote: Heres the thing about probes and why they arent useful in small roaming gangs: either someone has to drop out of their "fun ship" and roll in a cov ops to be useful for the off chance someone sits at a safe spot without a cloak and doesnt have a pos to warp to. Chances are with current game mechanics this person has already ctrl-q'd. So of course no one wants to roll in a cov ops on these ops. Now someone could drag along a probing alt, but anyone thats been on a long roam knows its a painful experience to drag 2 accounts throughout the universe. Especially when you have to run from various blobs coming after you. If the probes aren't useful, then don't bother with them. If they are useful, then bring a probe ship. No, "I don't enjoy probing" is not a good enough excuse. If you don't, then find someone who does. It's like asking for ships to be seeded for cheap on the market by NPCs because you don't enjoy manufacturing. Quote: So yes i think extended probe launchers should be easier to fit. HONESTLY, i dont see why starships aren't equipped with probe like sensors to begin with. Heres this tiny little probe that somehow has more scanning power than my giant starship. TBPFH, 3-4 starships should be able to triangulate someones location the same way probes do. Roleplay-wise, the best explanation I heard is that the level of shielding you'd need on a ship to stop radiation, heat (from going too close to sun), not to mention weapons fire, would interfere with the scanners too much. Much like how Earth's atmosphere can obscure light and cause it to be slightly distorted, powerful shields would likely make it impossible to get a perfect hit on a singular point in space. Gameplay-wise, probing is a unique and skilled role. Dumbing it down so that -every- ship can do it without any investment would hurt variety.
Tainted Psyche	Posted - 2009.03.31 08:34:00 - [12] /signed
Brutus Duran Brutor tribe	Posted - 2009.03.31 10:44:00 - [13] I agree with the OP with regards to 0.0 being too safe for 0.0 space holders but this how I would change things: NPCs All 0.0 spawns should have a scrambling rat in it. AGGRESSION TIMER The activation of any high slot mod when used on/against any other ship/rat/POS/asteroid/or whatever should start the 15 minute aggression timer (this includes mining lasers, remote repairers, probes). This would be in addition to the existing rule about being aggressed upon. CLOAKING (not covops cloaks) Cloaking should require that you have minimum 50% capacitor level to initiate cloak. It should also use cap and incur a negative cap recharge penalty while active so as to prevent non covert-ops ships from being able to stay cloaked indefinitely. JUMP BRIDGES The use of these should only be permitted for cap ships that can't jump through gates. There only purpose should be to allow entry into cyno jammed systems when off-lining the jammer is neither feasible nor desirable. LOCAL CHAT AND SHIP SCANNER Make local chat delayed 1 minute unless you talk in local. Increase ship scanner to system wide. Don't restrict what a ship scanner can pick up but do make it a chance thing depending on size of object/ship being scanned and distance from where it is being scanned. Example: a cepter at 50au would almost never get picked up by ship scanner but a battleship at 1au or less would almost always get picked up. The closer or bigger something gets, the more likely it will be to show on ship scanner. POS's AS ULTIMATE SAFESPOTS Multi layered and slightly long solution here, my apologies. Firstly, introduce sov holding POSs with lots more of everything but incredibly expensive to run. Then change other POSs to an industrial role but far less powergrid so they can't be armed to the teeth. In return these indy POS's should have stupendous amounts of hull to make them a major challange/bore for a BS gang to destroy completely, but counter that with dreadnought sized shield and armour capacity that a BS gang could completely wittle down in short order to make the POS inactive/non productive and more importantly get shooting access to any ships safed up within the shields. The POS would only go into RF when the armour has been taken down and onlined POS modules would be invincible. Offlined modules would be free to shoot. I also wouldn't have a major gripe with the ability to rep POS shields from within but it should still be a losing battle for a single ship to do when confronted by a BS gang pounding on the shields from the outside. I think these changes would offer more options for the hunter aswell as the hunted but the main aim is to prevent the invincibilty that a cloaked or POS safespotted ship has. They should not have the ability to stay logged on without 'playing the game'.
Koyama Ise Caldari Equestrian Knight Order of Lolicon	Posted - 2009.03.31 11:06:00 - [14] Originally by: Salient Soldier carebears have... ctrl-q local chat pos's intel channels ss + cloak large mobile bubbles jump bridges warp core stabs stations probes blockade runners jump freighters small roaming gangs have.. dir scan probes... sort of. Your list there is incorrect. For one you're lumping everyone who's not doing the act of PvP under the generic carebear I believe that lumps you under elitist member of the EVE-Online ganking society. Secondly the more correct list would be Haulers; Loggoff Safe Spots Cloaks Jump bridges Warp Core Stabs Blockade Runners Jump Freighters Ratters & Miners in alliance owned space; Loggoff Large mobile bubbles Stations Local chat Intel channels Safe Spots Cloaks Warp Core Stabs (Reduces effectivness) POSes Possibility of all belts (May range from few to many, 5-30+) Note: Miners align alot slower than ratters Ninja ratters have; Loggoff Local chat Intel channels (May or may not) Safe Spots Cloaks Warp core stabs (Reduces effectivness) Possibility of all belts (May range from few to many, 5-30+) Small roaming gangs in friendly space; Loggoff Dir scan Probes (If they're aggressed, don't have a cloak and log out or if they're in a plex and think they're safe) Jump bridges Intel channels Cloaks Dictor Bubbles (Heavy an Light) Small roaming gangs in non-friendly space have Loggoff Dir scan Probes (If they're aggressed, don't have a cloak and log out or if they're in a plex and think they're safe) Safe Spots Cloaks Dictor Bubbles (Heavy an Light) Also Originally by: Salient Soldier Make Ctrl-Q no longer a ôget out of jail freeö card. How? Remove emergency warp from 0.0. Warp disruption activates the 15m aggression timer ( goes for rats too ) Removing E-warp means when the internet lags out you sit there until you log off. The Warp Inhibiting device giving you an aggro timer is ok not so sure about having it on rats especially with these other two suggested changes Originally by: Salient Soldier POS's no longer safe, no pos shields , no guns able to hit cruiser sized ships, no pos ecm/web/neut Increase cloaking device fitting requirements. For PoS shields the fact that you think all that's a good idea means the rest of your suggestions are questionable because in hand with other features it would essentially say if you get scrammed out of a station system and don't have a cloak which the second one deals with that, a person with a cruiser and a probe launcher could kill you, you say it brings risk into 0.0 but instead transfers risk from the PvPer to the PvEer, so the PvE person would have no risk. Though I do have to say cloaking ninja ratters are hard to catch. --- O.P. is made of fail c/d. Originally by: rValdez5987 I dont like your sig. It fills me with rage. I want it removed. Reported.
Gallente Citizen1	Posted - 2009.03.31 13:39:00 - [15] Yeah, it's funny how 00 is safer than hisec. What this tells is that people minmax, clog up into communities and try to make world a safe place. Then someone steals another nations leaders wife and they kill eachother... Risk vs reward? It's only rewarding for the people who make and sell the weapons to the people in war(losec, FW).
Hariya	Posted - 2009.03.31 18:33:00 - [16] Originally by: Salient Soldier Conquerable space in 0.0 is the end game in eve and it is what truly makes eve stand out among the rest. I'm sorry but most of the Eve players nowadays don't agree with 0.0 being end-game or even a desirable goal. For instance I find it extremely repulsive due the sovereignity and the politics that comes with it.
Salient Soldier Minmatar Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams	Posted - 2009.03.31 20:19:00 - [17] Edited by: Salient Soldier on 31/03/2009 20:28:26 Originally by: Koyama Ise For one you're lumping everyone who's not doing the act of PvP under the generic carebear I believe that lumps you under elitist member of the EVE-Online ganking society. Polishes his EVE-Online Elite Ganking Society medallion ... and? Originally by: Koyama Ise Your list there is incorrect. No sir, yours is just pointlessly repetitive. I left a lot of things off my list for pvpers because in a vast majority of situations they just are not as useful as they are to CAREBEARS. Originally by: Koyama Ise Small roaming gangs in non-friendly space have Loggoff Dir scan Probes (If they're aggressed, don't have a cloak and log out or if they're in a plex and think they're safe) Safe Spots Cloaks Dictor Bubbles (Heavy an Light) Logoff - generally a small roaming gang (SRG from here on) only logs off when blobbed into a dead end system. Usually agressed, the SRG has to dodge probes while being massively outnumbered for 15 minutes. So the CAREBEARS get to have a real chance at killing you for 15 minutes. Now someone farming isk in a system only has to press ctrl-q to get away instantly. So even though youve put "logoff" on every category its 2 very different things. Probes - SRGs generally dont have probes. 1) too hard to fit on most combat setups 2) POS and SS + cloak are so common its pointless for someone to drop out of a combat ship to bring a cov-ops. Cloaks - the reduction in targeting time generally causes you to miss though 'lucky/chance' kills at gates. I'd say most SRGs dont roll with cloaks. Some roaming ships its not even a viable option, take the zealot for example. Dictors - I'd have to say that HICs are far more valuable to defense gangs than SRGs. They allow CAREBEARS to quickly cut off escape routes and setup camps. Originally by: Koyama Ise Removing E-warp means when the internet lags out you sit there until you log off. If your tank isnt good enough to take a beating from rats for the 20 seconds it takes you to log back in... get a better tank. And in situations like say running a plex, if your logistics guy drops with todays mechanics and ewarps off, the FC is gonna gang warp out if they cant handle it without you. With no ewarp, on dc the FC would gang warp you to safety. If anything this would be more dangerous for SRGs. Imagine losing connection while being chased by a blob. But if this is the only answer to the ctrl-q problem, im willing to lose a few ships to internet demons. Originally by: Koyama Ise For PoS shields the fact that you think all that's a good idea means the rest of your suggestions are questionable Please note the category i put that suggestion under. There was a time in eve when CAREBEARS didnt have the impenetrable safe spots known as POSs. That time is known as the good ol days.
Iscandar	Posted - 2009.04.01 19:18:00 - [18] /signed
Oricix	Posted - 2009.04.04 02:38:00 - [19] Wiser words have never been spoken! bows
Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic	Posted - 2009.04.04 05:27:00 - [20] You whine like a mule... you are still alive! ~ Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic

Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.04.04 07:36:00 - [21] Originally by: Kahega Amielden Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 30/03/2009 20:49:47 Quote: A delay in local registry according to ship size. Frigs, 10s delay (maybe 20s for cov ops, give them time to probe) Cruiser, 5s Everything else, instant. Just add full delayed mode local. Yes, that means you'll have to scan for your targets. Quote: Make Ctrl-Q no longer a ôget out of jail freeö card. How? Remove emergency warp from 0.0. Warp disruption activates the 15m aggression timer ( goes for rats too ) if you aggro someone before they can fully emergency warp, they get the aggro timer and sit in space for 15 mins. That's more than enough time to probe and annihilate the guy. Quote: Increase the frequency of warp scramming rats. Lower the fitting requirements for the extended probe launcher. Ships in POS shield dont appear on the dir scanner. Increase cloaking device fitting requirements. Remove combat probes from dir scan. -A few more warpscram rats wouldn't be bad -Extended probe launcher is fine as is. What, your roaming gang can't bring a scout now? -I love the D-scanner because it actually requires skill. Dumbing it down by removing erroneous hits (e.g. making you have to actually SEARCH FOR YOUR TARGET WTFOMG) would be **ty -Cloak is fine. They can just as easily log off, or warp between safespots -Remove combat probes from D-scan? Are you ing nuts? You're not looking to bring more risk into 0.0, you're looking to TOTALLY REMOVING EVERY SINGLE OPTION your prey has of escaping you. Quote: POS's no longer safe, no pos shields , no guns able to hit cruiser sized ships, no pos ecm/web/neut Fire and forget hunter probes expansion of faction 0.0 All except the expansion of faction 0.0 are horrid ideas Quote: Reduce sec status loss in low sec to stimulate more low sec pvp Titans and jump bridges are a deterrent to pvp = bad The dumbing down of remote rep, colors (blue/green) on target icons and warnings for accidental friendly fire. Sec status loss is fine. It's one of the protections afforded in lowsec. The problem is that there's no reason to be in lowsec for profit, so no one goes there except to shoot people I'm neutral to titans/jump bridges I don't see what you're ***ing about with that last sentence TL;DR you're not interested in game balance, you're interested in effortless ganks with no thought on your part. Incredible, a post where I agree whit what Kahega is saying. Kahega suggestions are way more balanced that the OP. BTW: The OP has forgotten some small aid to roaming gangs (seeing as he list all the changes from beta): interdictors, interceptors, HIC, covops for scouting, probes, recons, HAC, NPC stations where roaming gangs can stop in relative security. Probably I am forgetting another half a ton of positive changes.
Nephilius Caldari Grey Legionaires	Posted - 2009.04.04 15:38:00 - [22] Had to fly up hill both ways to get anywhere in space blizzard, right? Seriously though, those pesky sec status hits for initiating combat and blowing up ships in lowsec are pretty harsh. While I am not totally consumed by said sec status, it can be very detrimental to me in certain systems if I let it run wild. I guaranteee that if the loss was lowered or I had a way to bring it back up without grinding rats constantly, I would be doing all sorts of pvp. I ate a Carebear once...couldn't quit farting rainbows for a month.
Saki Vashtal	Posted - 2009.04.26 20:49:00 - [23] agreed


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