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Caleb Ayrania
TarNec
32
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Posted - 2012.05.03 15:06:00 -
[1] - Quote
Just finished reading the latest dev blog, and looked at the most awesome feature in YEARS...
We now got way better features to start considering actual shares and values of our corp. These changes will def make a lot of people more interested in getting ready for actual trading of shares.
We might not have the option to plug it into scc market yet, but I would not rule it out; that ccp is seriously considering this now..
If you havent seen it, and havent noticed to ingame simple calculation of it values and thus passive assets of our NAV, go check out the dev blog NAO!!
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Rengerel en Distel
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation
The Honda Accord
72
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 15:42:00 -
[2] - Quote
The latest devblog seems to be about inventory updates ... is something about corps hidden in the middle of it somewhere? Perhaps a link to what you're talking about?
Don't assume bad intent, when stupidity is the much more likely cause. |
Claire Voyant
120
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 16:10:00 -
[3] - Quote
Rengerel en Distel wrote:The latest devblog seems to be about inventory updates ... is something about corps hidden in the middle of it somewhere? Perhaps a link to what you're talking about?
The new unified inventory system will show you the current value of the items in your hangar, ship, container, etc. I personally think this was implemented to better flag potential money laundering activity. Some dreamers like Caleb think it is a sign that CCP wants to create more financial controls to help investors. We just humor the poor guy. He is really not well. |
Darth Tickles
Dark Sun Consortium
267
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 16:24:00 -
[4] - Quote
you guys are still gonna be here in ten years talking about the financial expansion that's never gonna come
i only hope im not still here making fun of you... |
GreenSeed
35
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Posted - 2012.05.03 16:44:00 -
[5] - Quote
Claire Voyant wrote:Rengerel en Distel wrote:The latest devblog seems to be about inventory updates ... is something about corps hidden in the middle of it somewhere? Perhaps a link to what you're talking about?
The new unified inventory system will show you the current value of the items in your hangar, ship, container, etc. I personally think this was implemented to better flag potential money laundering activity. Some dreamers like Caleb think it is a sign that CCP wants to create more financial controls to help investors. We just humor the poor guy. He is really not well.
well, yeah i think hes high or something... but it would be nice to have some goodies. |
Caleb Ayrania
TarNec
32
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Posted - 2012.05.03 18:06:00 -
[6] - Quote
So all the buzz elsewhere is just dreams?
When Hilmar talks about financial features in the forbes interview, that is him blowing smoke?
When they talk about balancing integration into DUST economy that is not gonna bring any new thoughts and old ideas back on the table?
When contract system has become pseudo nerfed by adding all the faction stuff on scc, that could not mean that they are going to look at exactly UI upgrades to play a part of a better contract system, with a form of storefront, as asked for a long time, and plugging data out to outgame access, like Dr E actually promised 2-3 years ago, and is now a natural progress from CREST and a now functional API system..
Yes things have taken a lot of time, but it IS finally starting to come together.. No we are not getting a NYSE with complete financial products.. WE are getting some minor tweaks and features, that was mentioned in many many posts discussed here on MD..
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Claire Voyant
120
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Posted - 2012.05.03 18:59:00 -
[7] - Quote
Caleb Ayrania wrote:When Hilmar talks about financial features in the forbes interview, that is him blowing smoke?
Or smoking something. You need to read up on Iceland's idea of a financial system. Seeing Hilmar talk about "storytelling" in that Forbes interview reminds me of roleplaying and how nothing ticks me off more than people who roleplay at finance in Eve. |
Stigman Zuwadza
Repercussus
RAZOR Alliance
12
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Posted - 2012.05.03 23:07:00 -
[8] - Quote
This just in....
People roleplay in Eve ...uh oh, whats going on?
All those that don't roleplay in Eve please contract me your stuff as you leave. 
Let the guy have his excitement, I for one have only just got over my excitement of being able to copy / paste the Price History.
Fly safe. o7 |
Greg Valanti
Looney Clones
42
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Posted - 2012.05.03 23:10:00 -
[9] - Quote
Caleb Ayrania wrote:
When contract system has become pseudo nerfed by adding all the faction stuff on scc, that could not mean that they are going to look at exactly UI upgrades to play a part of a better contract system, with a form of storefront, as asked for a long time, and plugging data out to outgame access, like Dr E actually promised 2-3 years ago, and is now a natural progress from CREST and a now functional API system..
Actually, that was so average prices on faction items could be determined for the new kill reports. |
Kara Books
Deal with IT.
124
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Posted - 2012.05.04 03:16:00 -
[10] - Quote
I may just cream myself the day eve introduces the eve stock market. |
Skydell
Space Mermaids
Somethin Awfull Forums
248
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Posted - 2012.05.04 03:33:00 -
[11] - Quote
Rengerel en Distel wrote:The latest devblog seems to be about inventory updates ... is something about corps hidden in the middle of it somewhere? Perhaps a link to what you're talking about?
I didn't see any Dev blog but the new Inventory system is on test server. It isn't giving accurate read outs on there with all the seeds but it works. It allows you to determine a Cargo value as well as hangar asset value. I suppose it will have a Psy-Ops value. 800 mill in that Badger might not look like such a good idea when the number is staring you in the face. |
OllieNorth
Recidivists Incorporated
178
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 16:11:00 -
[12] - Quote
I don't know how to explain this any clearer.
A Stock Market will not happen in EVE.
Ever.
A stock market relies on regulation, but more importantly, legal penalties.
Since identities in EVE are too easy to change with alts and such, there is no effective way to punish a transgressor. Without a fear of punishment, there are no true incentives not to cheat. Without those incentives, there is no trust. Without trust, stock markets are impossible.
The only effective way to make a stock market work would be if all concord protection were removed and players could kill each other, including in-station, at all times. THEN, someone would have to forge their own empire, write out a set of laws, and be able to enforce fines and imprisonment. THEN there would have to be a series of laws written up regulating stock trading. THEN there would have to be people whose job it is to monitor said trades and enforce the laws.
Or you could have all of that done by CCP. But that pretty much ruins the whole sandbox thing, now doesn't it? |
Darth Tickles
Dark Sun Consortium
276
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 16:29:00 -
[13] - Quote
OllieNorth wrote:I don't know how to explain this any clearer.
A Stock Market will not happen in EVE.
Ever.
A stock market relies on regulation, but more importantly, legal penalties.
Since identities in EVE are too easy to change with alts and such, there is no effective way to punish a transgressor. Without a fear of punishment, there are no true incentives not to cheat. Without those incentives, there is no trust. Without trust, stock markets are impossible.
The only effective way to make a stock market work would be if all concord protection were removed and players could kill each other, including in-station, at all times. THEN, someone would have to forge their own empire, write out a set of laws, and be able to enforce fines and imprisonment. THEN there would have to be a series of laws written up regulating stock trading. THEN there would have to be people whose job it is to monitor said trades and enforce the laws.
Or you could have all of that done by CCP. But that pretty much ruins the whole sandbox thing, now doesn't it?
Hey, thanks for typing out exactly what I couldn't be bothered to.
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Moto Akimoto
Tengu and Cash
14
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Posted - 2012.05.04 16:36:00 -
[14] - Quote
I think the stock market could work in Eve without involving Concord.
Valuation example using the new Inventory UI, with a corp NAV of 1 Billion ISK and 1000 shares: Stock price = 1 Million ISK
Enforcement example: The Corp is considered "Bankrupt" if Corp+CEO NAV<0 ISK. So if the NAV drops below 0 (zero) including the CEO's NAV then both the CORP and CEO are bankrupted. Once in Bankruptcy neither the Corp or character are usable ever again and would have a huge red "BANKRUPT" stamp across their picture sort of like the "Wanted" stamp.
Just a little more code from the Devs and no complicated Concord stuff.
Although, more alts would be required to pull off MD scams so ...
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Johnny Frecko
Fruidian Logic
20
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Posted - 2012.05.04 16:55:00 -
[15] - Quote
stock price isn't calculated by NAV/Shares.
So your theory is wrong :)
The value of a financial instrument is worth the present value of all future incomes.
Meaning that in order to set a price to a stock you need to assume(guess) how much dividend those shares will pay.
So a small 1B company(NAV) could have a much higher stock price.
Add to that that in eve you don't actually buy a part of the corporation(unlike real life) as there's no problem diluting shares and just making more as long as you have more than 50% of the shares.
There's a need for alot of regulation in order to make it work.
Including things like locking characters that are involved in the stock market so that they can't be transfered anymore, ever.
also maybe a skillpoint limitation to make it more painful.
You must impose A law somehow. |
Moto Akimoto
Tengu and Cash
14
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Posted - 2012.05.04 17:05:00 -
[16] - Quote
I'll just leave this for you here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Net_asset_value
TLDR: 99.9% of all Mutual Fund & ETF shares traded in North America are calculated as NAV/Shares.
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Durin Sarga
Lionhearted Investment Services and Planning
STORM.
4
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Posted - 2012.05.04 17:28:00 -
[17] - Quote
The problems I have seen in EVE related to businesses (especially those on MD) is that they tend to be run, operated, and executed by a limited number of players (employees) within the company. Most of the more recent examples have been single players (with alts) establishing a business for a set purpose and then people investing in that individual.
This makes the investment game about trust in the individual instead of trust in the company. And that type of investment is better suited in a bond form, not an IPO.
Think about this. What if Red Frog Freight held an IPO? I have no idea what they would need the ISK for, but they have proven themselves to be a reliable multi-faceted corporation/business that has a long history of operating with profits over a sustained period of time. Hell, they've even shown they can weather war decs and still deliver on their stated goals.
This would make RFF an excellent candidate for an IPO. Other existing corps in EVE that come to mind would be EVE University (again, don't know why they would need the ISK, but that's beside the point for now), or Agony Unleashed for their PvP classes.
Facebook didn't 'go public' after 5 days of operation. They grew themselves into a strong company first. Then the company went public to encourage investment in their concept, and expand on what is already a successful business model. In my opinion, this is what IPOs should be about in EVE. Eventually, those are the kinds of company's the EVE stock market should contain.
Any of the company's listed above, if they held an IPO would probably sell shares fairly quickly and command a solid price because of their pre-existing reputation and strength. So, until we start to see some of these types of EVE corporations step forward to make themselves publicly traded, there really is no need for an official stock market, because it would just be populated with a lot of scam-bait. |
Meili Jiang
Fugawa Heavy Industries
0
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Posted - 2012.05.04 19:27:00 -
[18] - Quote
Determining the value of corporations isn't what's keeping open market stock trading. That's actually pretty easy to figure out using the API and tools like jEVEAsset.
Regulation isn't missing either. Right now, there's a pretty healthy bond market in EVE without any regulation what so ever. Players actually manage to build enough trust that they can offer bonds and other players will invest in them.
What's preventing stock trading in EVE, in my opinion, is that there's no point in selling shares. There's no incentive for the corporation owners, since it's pretty easy to make money in EVE, and there are other means of obtaining capital that don't involve managing shares and shareholders. There's no incentive for buyers, either, since the corporation owner probably won't be paying dividends. And because there isn't an actual market to exchange those shares, players would find it difficult to sell shares if they go up, since it would be difficult to find players interested in purchasing those shares.
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LoreSpade Indigo
Void Storm Black Horse Division
0
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Posted - 2012.05.06 04:13:00 -
[19] - Quote
I just got a weird idea. but you could tag people based on what crimes they commit. and have like a dude go thru petitions to have people listed for certain crimes like scams or whatnot. kinda have crimes tally up. they dont do anything but other people can see that ****.
or something....
yeah i totally lost where i was going sorry... |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
700
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 04:31:00 -
[20] - Quote
Moto Akimoto wrote:I'll just leave this for you here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Net_asset_valueTLDR: 99.9% of all Mutual Fund & ETF shares traded in North America are calculated as NAV/Shares. I believe what you are referring to is the "Discounted Cash Flow" valuation method, which also works fine and is used quiet often especially by guys like Warren Buffet.
MFs and ETFs have nothing to do with corporation shares though. Corporations have their NAV posted on their balance sheet though, in a similar yet vastly more detailed way than what I do in an EvE audit.
Warren Buffet is one of those contrarian finance geniuses who foresee that a company is heavily underpriced and buy it, then "open the eyes of the world" on the true value of those companies so their value jumps up.
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Cedo Nulli
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
149
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Posted - 2012.05.06 10:15:00 -
[21] - Quote
I cant think anything more unfunctional in douchebag online then stock market. Its a pretty idea sure .. but like Ollienorth allready summed up very well .. its impossible in EVE.
Someone else said that bonds are working "healty" .. garbage .. if anyone is actually honoring them .. its only because they are working themselfs towards "the big heist". Saying something else means only that you are destined to lose you isk one day.
Remember the golden rule of internet "money" actions ... If you cant hit the person irl .. dont loan him anything. |
Caleb Ayrania
TarNec
35
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Posted - 2012.05.06 11:54:00 -
[22] - Quote
Seriously.. Shares are rather simple. A lot simpler then some of these comments imply..
Shares is a loan with a stake/security in the actual company. So the NAV represent the value upon liquidation.. Just like your securitized loans in EVE using a Hulk. This is simply a bigger loan, and with "everything" as collateral. The added benefit is the interest is based on ownership SHARE.
The comment about future profits, is irrelevant, that is just some fancy bookkeeping really. It makes sense to invest based on future profits, and company value. That is trading shares speculatively. Its all betting when it comes down to it.
My claim is the current changes to EVE and some of the features we have talked about for ages in here are NOW almost all getting here.. The NAV calculation was there with API, but now its tangible and intuitive, and dont need a lot of out of client tools. Yes MD have traded all types of advanced financial products, or experimented with it, but it will only be a real part of EVE when the ingame features support it..
That is also why WE NEED STANDING BASED CONSEQUENCES.. Embargoes and Boycotts MUST be part of the game. That is why contracts and market orders needs a huge boost, and corp and alliance features need to be integrated into this. Some of these things seem to be right around the corner..
It is also worth noting that there is a general revolution in EVE markets underway. Its only just started.. It seems ccp is finally fixing the HUGE flaws in the economy..
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Moto Akimoto
Tengu and Cash
15
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Posted - 2012.05.06 15:13:00 -
[23] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
MFs and ETFs have nothing to do with corporation shares though.
This is true but corporate shares in Eve aren't "Corporate Shares" either. At best, these shares are a halfbaked mechanism to lock down BPOs (which most MD posters know how to circumvent anyways). 
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
703
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 15:44:00 -
[24] - Quote
Moto Akimoto wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
MFs and ETFs have nothing to do with corporation shares though.
This is true but corporate shares in Eve aren't "Corporate Shares" either. At best, these shares are a halfbaked mechanism to lock down BPOs (which most MD posters know how to circumvent anyways).
I don't think they are half backed, they just don't function like we expect (that is we expect they are like RL).
If you noticed we have other skills like Margin Trading that somewhat conceptually resemble their RL counterpart but really are not it.
I'd look at EvE shares as a mechanic created to support CCP's idea of "corporation", where in their original plans certain members would be hired like in a real company (and not a "guild") and paid periodic dividends thru those shares. EvE shares would be more or less enough for such a task.
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Esan Vartesa
Samarkand Financial
226
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Posted - 2012.05.06 16:02:00 -
[25] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
I'd look at EvE shares as a mechanic created to support CCP's idea of "corporation", where in their original plans certain members would be hired like in a real company (and not a "guild") and paid periodic dividends thru those shares. EvE shares would be more or less enough for such a task.
This would be a wonderful mechanic, but because CCP conflated "shares" with "voting shares" with "employment contract shares", it's not workable.
If a corporation wanted to easily pay a salary, or have a profit share scheme, then what you'd need are shares that are NOT treated as assets, but as promisory notes. The only difference between that and what we have, is that the corporation would have the ability to reclaim those shares as any time.
Essentially, the holder would be expected to perform some service for the corporation, and as long as they continued to perform that service, they would be allowed to hold the 'shares'.
What we have now are shares that are really only useful as an internal voting tool for corporations that are managed by committee. They're useless as anything else, because as others have mentioned, without laws, the only determinant of ownership is possession. Therefore, no corporation in Eve owns ANY assets, only individuals with access do. Shares are tied to the corporation, but value is freely transferable.
To build a stock market, you're asking CCP to come up with a system to enable 'locking' of value to a corporate entity, without using laws.
Good luck. |
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