this is "Brewlar Kuvakei" btw. and a part of his Crusade against T2 BPO`s.

I figured as much.

so much so that in one market research report it was determined that 60% of all tech 2 ships were built from Tech 2 bpos, not through invention.

I know I'd be the first to pounce on completely stupid T2 BPO related suggestions, but this isn't one of THOSE.
Well, not yet, or not exactly.

Yes, ALLOWING invented BPCs to have a much higher ME/PE level would be an improvement of sorts.
But it doesn't even solve the problem I suspect the OP thinks it would solve, however it has different benefits.

there's nothing wrong with T2 BPO.

Verry true... but everyone should have a chance to get one.
So until that happens there is a problem.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=topics&f=278

or

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=topics&f=279

Allowing T1 BPC ME/PE levels to have an effect on the output would also make some of the various decryptors much more interesting as you could offset some of their drawbacks by researching your T1 BPO before copying.

The formula that I've always been partial to is:

T2 ME = Sqrt(T1 ME) - 5

It would help narrow the gap in material costs (depending on the T2 item, that can be a big deal or not a big deal).

Lower datacore costs would also help narrow the gap.

Improvements in the invention process would help narrow the gap.

And how many orders of Tech 2 prints did you find in there. I did say EVERYONE.

everyone has the chance to get one of these prints. Not everyone will be able to afford one. This is EXACTLY how it should be in mostly player controlled market of a sandbox Game. If you want an easy game where everyone has the same Equipment after 3 month, you might aswell try WoW, but please dont try to turn eve into WoW.

At the risk of beating a dead horse, there was not an equal opportunity to receive a t2 bpo as you might expect in a sandbox game. Eve is slowly becoming a linear game with a push toward a null sec "endgame" and favoritism toward the large nullsec corps. The gripe about T2 BPOs is consistent with this. There's a difference between a player-controlled market, and a market controlled by a few players.

there's nothing wrong with T2 BPO.

this is "Brewlar Kuvakei" btw. and a part of his Crusade against T2 BPO`s.


plu close this thread anyway, there are 3 threads alread that he is shitting up with his T2BPO moaning already https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=93154&find=unread

And how many orders of Tech 2 prints did you find in there. I did say EVERYONE.

...When the T2BPO undercuts invention in items where the BPO can supply all of the demand....

can you give 1 real example of such item?

can you give 1 real example of such item?

Oh, oh, I can! I can!

50mm reinforced steel plate IIs!
Or... uhm...

Oh, I know. Cargo scanner IIs?

Ship scanner IIs?

Small smartbomb IIs?

You may be noticing a trend here in that they are all things that nobody uses because they are worthless. Basically, there's a big fat juicy steak on the table with enough for everyone, and Brewlar is crying over someone else getting an extra cucumber slice on their salad.

All the items you mentioned are produced by T2BPO's at profit even if they sell like crap. However inventors can not sell these at profit as it costs more to invent them than the BPO owner is selling them at. T2 Armour plates are gimped by rolled Tungsten both for inventors and BPO owners.

You are crying because you know what a powerful effect T2BPO have in ISK making for their owners/ alliances,

You weren't around before invention were you?

There's a difference between a player-controlled market, and a market controlled by a few players.

All the items you mentioned are produced by T2BPO's at profit even if they sell like crap. However inventors can not sell these at profit as it costs more to invent them than the BPO owner is selling them at. T2 Armour plates are gimped by rolled Tungsten both for inventors and BPO owners.

You are crying because you know what a powerful effect T2BPO have in ISK making for their owners/ alliances, CCP knows this and that is why they don't release figures for them. However as there currently exists a multitude of posts regarding T2BPO's over the years CCP must acknowledge that they need to be either removed or gimped by invention. If CCP wants eve to grow and '' EVE is real'' it'll have to stop giving hand outs to pet players and alliances that place them above other players. let them compete fairly and the better side win.

It's not but I'm glad its spreading. I have my post and to be fair I don't think T2BPO needs more than one post in Science and industry at anyone time.

You made your point and no one agrees with you that didn't already. Give it a rest.

with "spreading aorund" do you mean the very special missunderstanding of the Industry you have, or the also quite unique form of bad grammer that you both have? but yea totally not your alt.




his alts did several times


This thread has never been about improving anything realy, its just your poor atempt to stop botehrs beeing succesfull aswell.


for the record; I do own a few Ship T2 BPO`s (bought them for a lot of hard earned isk) but I make about twice of that with inventions...

If CCP wants eve to grow and '' EVE is real'' it'll have to stop giving hand outs to pet players and alliances that place them above other players. let them compete fairly and the better side win.

The only markets where T2 BPOs have a significant impact are where there is little demand for item.

Man, corruption is the most real thing about EVE! What don't you get about this? Bribery and kick-backs and dirty, backroom deals are selling points, not issues. All sorts of games let you pretend to be involved in intrigue. What sounds better, a +5 bonus to your character sheet's Influence Rating, or actually gaining more influence?

How ******* boring would this game be if everybody was a model citizen? This game needs bastards to make it interesting, otherwise it's just an office job. And you can't have bastards without the ability to play crooked. And you don't make a game where you can play crooked by refereeing a level playing field.

The only problem ... the crooked are supported by a lead designer.

Now aside from that one comment, I'll say I've seen some good suggestions here.

1. Allowing research of T1 BPO's to actually affect the ME/PE outcome of T2 BPC's
2. Nerf the T2 BPO's. Give them -4/-4 to start with. Then they can try to get better runs using decrypters.

Ok, I can't resist a couple more comments...

We know CCP will not nerf the T2 BPO's because that would be nerfing their null sec buddies. (Perhaps even nerfing his own assets.) Remember, they want to move T2 production to low sec or null sec (datacore changes). So, it's ok to nerf high sec T2 production even greater, but not touch anything to do with what was an obvious mistake back in the day. Not to mention, likely rigged lotteries.

Just remember everyone, EvE isn't like a national sweepstakes where the employees and their families are not allowed to play. In this case, they are encouraged.

All the items you mentioned are produced by T2BPO's at profit even if they sell like crap. However inventors can not sell these at profit as it costs more to invent them than the BPO owner is selling them at. T2 Armour plates are gimped by rolled Tungsten both for inventors and BPO owners.

You are crying because you know what a powerful effect T2BPO have in ISK making for their owners/ alliances, CCP knows this and that is why they don't release figures for them. However as there currently exists a multitude of posts regarding T2BPO's over the years CCP must acknowledge that they need to be either removed or gimped by invention. If CCP wants eve to grow and '' EVE is real'' it'll have to stop giving hand outs to pet players and alliances that place them above other players. let them compete fairly and the better side win.

You weren't around before invention were you?

the real trouble was T20

meh maybe I'll be spacerich enough to purchase one of the other "semi-good" ones when they come up for sale.

So, again, T2 BPOs ? Horrible, horrible investment.
The only reason they sell as high as they do is silly people believing they're the holy grail or something.
Basically, they're a glorified e-peen.

This. I have a couple, and I honestly haven't even used them for almost a year. Probably sell them this summer. I have a niche that I work to great effect and profit with invention/manufacturing, and the T2 BPOs I have don't make me any money at all.

If your t2 bpos dont make money for you then send them to me. I tried invention many times and, at least with ships, there is no money in them because t2 bpos can produce for way less than invention price and still make a profit. Until that situation changes then T2 bpos are a problem that needs to be rectified.

If your t2 bpos dont make money for you then send them to me. I tried invention many times and, at least with ships, there is no money in them because t2 bpos can produce for way less than invention price and still make a profit. Until that situation changes then T2 bpos are a problem that needs to be rectified.

Just because YOU don't know what you're doing doesn't mean nobody does. I'd offer to take you into one of my corps to train you, but you obviously just want an Easy Button.

Easy button? You mean a T2BPO becuase that is the easy button.

The reasons for some items being unprofitable to invention are numerous and many are pointed out in the many forum posts but screaming that T2BPO has nothing to do with it just makes you look like tards. T2BPO may not be the crippling factor in all invention items but it is in some.

Easy button? You mean a T2BPO becuase that is the easy button.

The reasons for some items being unprofitable to invention are numerous and many are pointed out in the many forum posts but screaming that T2BPO has nothing to do with it just makes you look like tards. T2BPO may not be the crippling factor in all invention items but it is in some.

I tried invention many times and, at least with ships, there is no money in them because t2 bpos can produce for way less than invention price and still make a profit.

how exactly would you explain the lack of profitability in inventing some ships that NEVER HAD ANY T2 BPOs ?

I have invented ships that have no T2 bpos and have made profits, so as far as I know there is nothing to explain. Please give profitability figures you get for these ships.

T2 ships that have T2 bpos are the problem, especially high market ships. There is no way an inventor can compete with a T2 bpo holder since the me/pe can be so high the production cost is very low and inventors are undercut out of production.

I have invented ships that have no T2 bpos and have made profits, so as far as I know there is nothing to explain. Please give profitability figures you get for these ships.

T2 ships that have T2 bpos are the problem, especially high market ships. There is no way an inventor can compete with a T2 bpo holder since the me/pe can be so high the production cost is very low and inventors are undercut out of production.

T2 ships that have T2 bpos are the problem, especially high market ships. There is no way an inventor can compete with a T2 bpo holder since the me/pe can be so high the production cost is very low and inventors are undercut out of production.

Seems those Hulk BPO owners aren't having the effect on the market you want to think they are. Ishtar owners too.

. T2BPO owners have a much much much lower cost basis for producing t2 ships. That is what matters to the individual ship builder.

For an individual producer it does not matter what affect t2 bpo owners have on the market, that is a stupid comment. What affects individual producers is the cost to produce and the current market rate. T2BPO owners have a much much much lower cost basis for producing t2 ships. That is what matters to the individual ship builder.

I am a producer, not a trader. Trading and market discussions belong in the market discussions section. This is Science and Industry.

So T2BPOs aren't more productive/better than invention.

So why does the game need them? Take them out.

People who have T2BPOs automatically have the upperhand.

To Invent with minimum costs:

1. I have to have access to a POS, cuz lets face it. NPC slots are never open for copying. So i have to have a corp with high standings or an alliance with null sec space.

2. I have to train all the skills necessary at the appropiate level for the invention. Takes TIME training and isk to buy the books.

3. If i want a decent chance at the invention, I need to train my skills to 4 or 5. Even MORE time in training.

4. I need to earn my own datacores, which requires high skills (not so bad since I should be training them for decent invention chances), but I have to farm standings. EVEN MORE TIME.

5. Datacores take TIME to harvest and I have to hope some *ssh*l* doesnt blow me up on a gate while I am transporting them all to the same location.

So even with perfect skills, you still only have like a 50/50 most of the time on the high priced items like ships and it takes me a hell of a long TIME to get to this point, and that is if I am only producing one T2 item. The more T2 items I want to build, the more datacore skills and research agents I need, which means additional accounts.

T2PBO owners just have to have the manufactoring skills and resources.

Stop your god damn whining. Nobody cares.

but let's not think for a moment T2BPOs don't have a benefit or why would CCP put them in.

And you must care or why bother visiting the forum on T2BPOs unless you have some vested interest.

So T2BPOs aren't more productive/better than invention.

So why does the game need them? Take them out.

People who have T2BPOs automatically have the upperhand.

To Invent with minimum costs:

1. I have to have access to a POS, cuz lets face it. NPC slots are never open for copying. So i have to have a corp with high standings or an alliance with null sec space.

2. I have to train all the skills necessary at the appropiate level for the invention. Takes TIME training and isk to buy the books.

3. If i want a decent chance at the invention, I need to train my skills to 4 or 5. Even MORE time in training.

4. I need to earn my own datacores, which requires high skills (not so bad since I should be training them for decent invention chances), but I have to farm standings. EVEN MORE TIME.

5. Datacores take TIME to harvest and I have to hope some *ssh*l* doesnt blow me up on a gate while I am transporting them all to the same location.

So even with perfect skills, you still only have like a 50/50 most of the time on the high priced items like ships and it takes me a hell of a long TIME to get to this point, and that is if I am only producing one T2 item. The more T2 items I want to build, the more datacore skills and research agents I need, which means additional accounts.

T2PBO owners just have to have the manufactoring skills and resources.

Again, enough ranting and one-liners. Present your well thought-out argument of why they should be removed, the impact of their removal and how you would minimize those impacts for people not involved. DO YOUR HOMEWORK.

You know how I know you're not an actual producer?


1. If you're even remotely serious about production of any kind, you're going to have a POS for the time modifiers alone.

2. You need almost the exact same skills to plug in the production job that you need to plug in the invention job. The encryption methods skill is really the only difference, and it's dirt cheap and has a negligible effect.

3. Actually, the base success chance constitutes the vast majority of the probability. 4/5 skills typically only adjust your expected cost per run by tens of thousands of isk over level 1 skills for most modules. My invention character's expected cost per run on adaptive invulns: 202000
A character with 0 skills: 254000

It eats into your proffit a bit, especially for a module with a fairly thin margin to begin with, but by no means is it necessary to get 4s or 5s.


4/5. You need to what? That's adorable. Datacores are worth what they are worth. Their value - and therefor the cost of your invention jobs - is no different if you farm them yourself or if you buy them on the market. Even if you suffer from the datacores-I-farm-myself-are-free delusion, no real inventor could ever keep themselves in datacores.

I don't have to be a producer to know just needing level 1 skills and POS is automatically going to add to the manufactoring cost regardless. Invention + Manufactoring = cost more than owning and using a researched T2BPO.

[Posting on an alt. Stfu you irellevant kunt.

Posting on an alt. Stfu you irellevant kunt.

Posting on an alt. Stfu you irellevant kunt.

Ehm no sorry I don't make personal attacks that's the T2BPO supporters side. Yet again ...sniff sniff,wheee

Posting on an alt. Stfu you irellevant kunt.

everyone has the chance to get one of these prints. Not everyone will be able to afford one. This is EXACTLY how it should be in mostly player controlled market of a sandbox Game. If you want an easy game where everyone has the same Equipment after 3 month, you might aswell try WoW, but please dont try to turn eve into WoW.

Now see there is the problem that not everyone can get the prints cause there are not enough prints around for every character in the game even if all the characters in the game would have isks.
So this part of the sandbox is broken and needs a fix

So this part of the sandbox is broken and needs a fix

So T2BPOs aren't more productive/better than invention.

So why does the game need them? Take them out.

People who have T2BPOs automatically have the upperhand.

To Invent with minimum costs:

1. I have to have access to a POS, cuz lets face it. NPC slots are never open for copying. So i have to have a corp with high standings or an alliance with null sec space.

2. I have to train all the skills necessary at the appropiate level for the invention. Takes TIME training and isk to buy the books.
3. If i want a decent chance at the invention, I need to train my skills to 4 or 5. Even MORE time in training.
4. I need to earn my own datacores, which requires high skills (not so bad since I should be training them for decent invention chances), but I have to farm standings. EVEN MORE TIME.

5. Datacores take TIME to harvest and I have to hope some *ssh*l* doesnt blow me up on a gate while I am transporting them all to the same location.

A lot of people in these threads keep complaining that somehow, a level of disparity between players keeps EVE from being a 'sandbox'. I'm sure they have no god damn clue what they mean.

This. I suspect that people come to Eve expecting Hello Kitty (honestly!), see how player demands have bent CCP in the past, and demand their own Easy Button. Disgusting.

...a fully fledge E-sport with a diverse player driven universe...

Yet again I must stress that T2BPO is not the only bain of invention but it does make invention irrelevent in some production lines.

I've played hello kitty online yet the devs there don't give out easy win buttons aka T2BPO. Hello kitty is a fully fledge E-sport with a diverse player driven universe something Eve Online could only dream of.

Hello Kitty Online is REAL!

Yet again I must stress that T2BPO is not the only bain of invention but it does make invention irrelevent in some production lines.

greedy BPO owners vs. poor inventors

The speech Brewlar Kuvakei, with its lack of argument with his accusations that are not based on anything concrete, with the generalization from a single case, with all its bad faith, with the stigma of a class of players according to their properties and how they have acquired, is a National Socialist speech (na-zi).

The Na-zi have installed this hate speech for years in Germany 30 years to prepare raffles and looting of Jewish property.

As a holder of T2 BPOs I am proud to be a Jew for Brewlar Kuvakei

The character "Brewlar Kuvakei" behaves like a Na-zi

You do know that if you use the "****** card" you loose the depate out right?

So that there is a debate we need debaters, there is no debate, only a series of baseless charges.

As mentioned earlier, this has been debated to death for years, but when people do not want to hear the facts, it is good to show them what their methods are similar

Now tell me again we are the infamous T2 bpo holders and the inventors are the honest guys who are victims of our greed

BTW today it's May, 8th, does that date meaningful to you?

no meaning what so ever on this current day.

And no I do not see the T2 bpo owners as bad people I see the game mechanics that are no right and I wanna do something to that.

Alse it seems that this matter is still ongoing cause everyone posts about it. So mayby CCP should look into it and say... ok this is what we will do and stand by it and not just ignore it.

And everyone wants to hear facts there are just not much facts here. Loads of asumbtions, pointing and other stuff.

One fact tough is that invention is not profitable enough on those modules which have bpo counterparts.

Alse it seems that this matter is still ongoing cause everyone posts about it. So mayby CCP should look into it and say... ok this is what we will do and stand by it and not just ignore it.

And everyone wants to hear facts there are just not much facts here. Loads of asumbtions, pointing and other stuff.

One fact tough is that invention is not profitable enough on those modules which have bpo counterparts.

The only thing that is still ongoing is that week after week people who have no idea what they're talking about get the wrong idea and then refuse to face the facts when they're presented to them. T2 BPO's are ignored because every time they're looked into by people who have even a hobbiest level of knowledge on the subject the same conclusion is reached; there's nothing that needs changing about T2 BPO's.

What do you mean 'not profitable enough'? Are you saying a BPO owner makes more ISK / hour on a single slot than an inventor building and selling the same item on a single slot? Correct! Gold star! Are you saying that inventors can't make millions of ISK an hour producing and selling the exact same items? Incorrect! Dunce cap! Are you saying that an inventor can't make more ISK / hour on a single slot than that BPO holder by choosing a different product? Incorrect! Repeat the eighth grade!

Well lets hear the facts then. Start typing please. I will admit that I'm wrong if you present your case so that there are no way of seeing the other way. Please try.

And please stop being an idiot while posting something.

In order to do that I need to know what exactly is your position? That T2 BPO's make invention a waste of time? That you can still make money with invention, but you could make more if it weren't for BPO's? That BPO's are just unfair and games are supposed to be fair? It's hard to make out, your posts aren't easy to parse. You keep using the word 'tough' in the middle of sentences and I don't know why. It's looking less and less like you have anything to say, and more like you're just a **** disturber.

In order to... even Jajas gave something useful to look at (which I will do later today) your just whining a crying you little ****. If your not even going to respond politely then STFU.

And thank you Jajas I will look into those cause I am curious about this.

In order to... even Jajas gave something useful to look at (which I will do later today) your just whining a crying you little ****. If your not even going to respond politely then STFU.

One fact tough is that invention is not profitable enough on those modules which have bpo counterparts.

If it is half as profitable as the BPO you can use two invention lines and draw even. Invention is easily scalable with the number of lines you have on your character(s), while T2 production is limited by the amount of BPOs you have.
So you could easily do 10 inventions per timeframe and character, thus multiplying the profit. Not that easy with T2 BPOs (check their copy time).

I wish people would grasp that concept and finally stop moaning about T2 BPOs being more profitable than invention. This is utter garbage.

You asked for numbers, here they are.

I did my homework and updated my spreadsheet database (which was pre Dominion) and prices from EVE-Central (Jita)

This is what is the rank list for TODAY of what is profitable to invent

What to invent - ships

Invention is profitable no need to accuse T2 bpos to kill the market.

Just not be dumb and invent wisely

Invention IS profitable, but many of your numbers are inappropriately optimistic at best and outright faulty at worst. Consider, for example, the Golem which, at -1 ME, you give a production cost of 959.1 million with a per-unit profit of 337.93 million.

While it's true that the low sell price in The Forge presently sits at 1.297 billion, the peak daily high for the last month is 980 million, which tells us that the units presently for sale - both of them ( ) - are set at hail-mary prices hoping for a desperate buyer during a supply shortage. They might yield that profit margin, but it would not be a wise investment option for an invention job. They have been climbing in price to match the increasing production costs, but 1.3 billion is substantially above the current price curve (which sees an increase in the daily average of about 4.5m per day over the last 30 days).

Since the current price disparity is not the result of a sudden demand spike, a more realistic margin prediction would be closer to 30-60 million which, while still profitable, is probably not worth the copy, invention, and production time.

This, of course, is not the fault of T2 BPOs, as none exist for the item in question.

Also, line 20: Sabre ME -3 - obtained by Thrasher BPC 1-run and nothing.

There is no T2 bpo issue : there is an issue with invention costs and advanced material costs (Technetium). Instead of asking for a T2 bpo nerf that will change nothing to the fate of the inventors, ask for cheaper decryptors, datacores and advanced materials. Invention costs and waste cost are hurting invention profits]

It is really hard to get this through to people. Decreasing invention cost or waste will:
1. Lower the profits made by the primary producers (miners, PI farmers, moon miners, datacore farmers, etc.)
2. Lower the prices that consumers pay.
3. Nerf the profitibality and ROI of T2 BPOs, since the difference between the cost of invented goods and BPO produced goods will be less.

However, it will not greatly affect invention profits!

This, of course, is not the fault of T2 BPOs, as none exist for the item in question.

I agree with the rest of your post, but then you added this last paragraph in which you are mistaken. Invention costs and waste do not hurt inventor profits. Inventors pass all of their costs on to their customers.

It is really hard to get this through to people. Decreasing invention cost or waste will:
1. Lower the profits made by the primary producers (miners, PI farmers, moon miners, datacore farmers, etc.)
2. Lower the prices that consumers pay.
3. Nerf the profitibality and ROI of T2 BPOs, since the difference between the cost of invented goods and BPO produced goods will be less.

However, it will not greatly affect invention profits!