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Ji Sama
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Posted - 2009.04.13 11:15:00 -
[1]
Some thought of ingame legislation?
An ingame stock exhange?
Securities beeing able to attach itself to a contract?
More market people?
All of the above?
Please add to this thread with what you think the secondary market need most!
This is a signature not related to EVE |
Ms Delerium
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Posted - 2009.04.13 11:21:00 -
[2]
 Originally by: Ji Sama
Some thought of ingame legislation? NO, legislation sux. New Eden is an hostile world.
An ingame stock exhange? Yes would be sweet!
Securities beeing able to attach itself to a contract? Maybe new contract type, managing money exchanges, time of return, and the game itself transfers the isk automatically -> no scams
More market people? The better ingame options CCP develop, the more market players will be =)
All of the above?
Please add to this thread with what you think the secondary market need most!
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Ji Sama
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Posted - 2009.04.13 11:23:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Ji Sama on 13/04/2009 11:25:17
sneak edit :p brb
This is a signature not related to EVE |
Ji Sama
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Posted - 2009.04.13 11:35:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Ji Sama
Well friend, you can do better than that...
You could say something, like; less aggresive MD regulars?
Though i would hate to say it, even though ive been given the same treatment, i can see the meaning behind the madness... (dont know if that translated right)
The scrutiny & critique of the MD community is the last line of defence....
Sorry for putting words in your mouth...
This thread is not about what we dont want :D
Didnt see the sneaky answering inside the quote :p Mybad...
1:
Well i am not saying legislation as in absolute legislation.
I want some form of possible retalion from the victims side, for instance be able to embargo against the victimizer ;) or add tax to a corp that you dont want trading / buying your stock.
And perhaps also implement some thought of block ie. if a hauler fails to deliver your goods, you can then block him from accepting any of your contracts... etc...
2:
I know that many wants this, i cant see why it hasnt be made yet...
3:
It would be nice to have the contract system overhauled from a whole new perspective.
Out of the box thinking and customization/consequences/control & userbility.
But no; "get out of jail free card" if you cant manage how many digits etc you put in, or choose to accept... scamming will still be possible... and that is ok!
4:
More functional market tools indeed!
thanks for adding to this thread i knew i could count on you :D
This is a signature not related to EVE |
Caleb Ayrania
Gallente
TarNec
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Posted - 2009.04.13 11:48:00 -
[5]
Since the solo, Crassus effect seem to be seeping in a lot in general, what is most lkely needed is tools to improve trust, and coop work. This both in relation to investment and in risk/reward.
The influx of isk and value ingame could be improved a lot if there was better regulation tools in relation to trust.
An overhaul to wardec and bounty system is an important part, and visible politics from standing would be useful to open up SOV space for more players.
Better Alliance and trading features would also be highly useful.
Above these I would say more features created by players, like exchanges and more player to player metagame activity.
- Money is Love -
Sometimes it just gets bend the wrong ways.
Feed your Brain:
Innovation Thread |
Ji Sama
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Posted - 2009.04.13 12:02:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Ji Sama on 13/04/2009 12:02:12
yes caleb you adress alot of these issues in your excellent thread imho!
This is a signature not related to EVE |
Salvo Brunel
Clown Punchers Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.04.13 12:11:00 -
[7]
Some of the above answers don't relate to the secondary market as I understand it. I take the secondary market to mean players 'lending' money to other players and getting 'reward' for doing this in the form of interest, divdends etc. Doubtless some of our more systematic thinkers can improve on this definition.
In my opinion the secondary market is weak becuase there isn't a sufficiently strong reason for it to exist. It's not down to tools or mechanisms, there is no real need for a secondary market.
It only makes sense to lend to people who have a long and proven track record of making money. By definition these people have lots of money and don't really need the investment.
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Ji Sama
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Posted - 2009.04.13 12:30:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Ji Sama on 13/04/2009 12:35:10
Definitions:
The secondary market is the financial market for trading of securities that have already been issued in an initial private or public offering. Alternatively, secondary market can refer to the market for any kind of used goods. ...
A state or private agency that purchases loans from lenders
Market where securities are bought and sold subsequent to their issue.
An organization that buys loans from banks or other lenders. This purchase of loans frees funds and allows lenders to make additional loans to students.
Secondary markets are the stock exchanges and the over-the-counter market. Securities are first issued as a primary offering to the public. When the securities are traded from that first holder to another, the issues trade in these secondary markets.
A market in which an investor purchases a security from another investor rather than the issuer, subsequent to the original issuance in the primary market.
An informal market where existing mortgages are bought and sold. It is the traditional after market for mortgage loans that brings together lenders that sell mortgages with lenders, investors and agencies that buy mortgages. ...
Marketplace for trading in securities.
Privately held income streams can be sold by the owners for cash in the secondary market.
The buying and selling of existing mortgages, usually as part of a "pool" of mortgages.
Established security exchanges or over-the-counter (OTC) markets where purchases and sales of outstanding securities take place among investors.
And the game definition:
a market that runs outside the ingame market!
This is a signature not related to EVE |
Caleb Ayrania
Gallente
TarNec
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Posted - 2009.04.13 13:21:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Salvo Brunel
Some of the above answers don't relate to the secondary market as I understand it. I take the secondary market to mean players 'lending' money to other players and getting 'reward' for doing this in the form of interest, divdends etc. Doubtless some of our more systematic thinkers can improve on this definition.
In my opinion the secondary market is weak becuase there isn't a sufficiently strong reason for it to exist. It's not down to tools or mechanisms, there is no real need for a secondary market.
It only makes sense to lend to people who have a long and proven track record of making money. By definition these people have lots of money and don't really need the investment.
Stuff...
Secondary market and metagame is all that is related to outgame parts of the game. If you work around the mechanics of the game or add content that isnt there already.. rp, stock market, codes of conduct, etc.
Reasoning for a secondary market is the profit really. There is a lot, if the mechanics are created and the trust issues are straightened out a bit.
You point out that only long track records are worth lending isk, that is basically the proof of all that is wrong with the game atm. There is no high risk secondary market because trust is a major issue.. Hence the returns are rather small, and thus the secondary market isnt worth much... its a negative spiral really..
- Money is Love -
Sometimes it just gets bend the wrong ways.
Feed your Brain:
Innovation Thread |
Salvo Brunel
Clown Punchers Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.04.13 13:28:00 -
[10]
You have offered so many definitions that it is hard to tell if I agree or not. 
But obviously we need to be very clear what the secondary market means before any discussion. (I find it hard to believe this hasn't been defined before, but a look through the stickies and a cursory eve search didn't find anything.)
In EVE:
The primary market is buying / selling goods. It doesn't matter whether you buy the goods through the market or though contracts. It is also irrelevent whether the goods are consumer items (e.g. ammo) or industrial goods (e.g. POS components or minerals).
The secondary market is the financial market of players giving other players ISK in return for some form of reward like interest or devidends. I don't seem much point in differentiating between the initial offering of these debt instruments and any possible reselling - it is all part of the secondary market.
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The ChurchWarden
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Posted - 2009.04.13 13:33:00 -
[11]
Edited by: The ChurchWarden on 13/04/2009 13:35:37
Having recently had it out over this exact topic I will gladly comment =P. The secondary market needs regulation, thats right I said regulation. The thing that CCP will not create but must exist in any market economy since all trade is based on trust. That being said we do not need the 'beat you with a stick' type of regulation of the real world as that will never exist in eve. Instead we need the ol carrot on a stick. A way to enforce behavior by reward of sticking to standards and using approved products while other products may still exist they lack the 'standards' of the regulation approved products.
So seems all a little vague so lets explore the whole thought of regulation in an enviroment where the dev's will never make them and the players won't trust them? First I was recently told reputations are priceless and yet reputations are what ensure secondary market trade. However capital is the premium to 'protect' your reputation. If you are a person of reputation like any of the MD oldbies then your reputation is worth probably more isk then you have. Or in the case of Ebank exactly the amount of ISK your entrusted! So to create a carrot form of regulation someone would need to create a way in which experienced MD members could 'approve' of a product without putting reputation on the line. Perhaps using their capital premium as subsitute to mitigate risk? Think of it as a soft regulation something the majority of the game will be a part of an thus works without the need of 'enforcing' it beyond the reward one recieves from following it.
-Ninja edit
1 - More Banks
2 - More exchanges like Blocks ICE index and the Mineral Index
3 - More creative secondary market services!
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Sir Elliot
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Posted - 2009.04.13 15:38:00 -
[12]
I believe it was the Roman Crassus (the richest man of the ancient world, who counted his wealth by the number of armies he could personally finance) who remarked, "A man reaches a point with wealth that only 2 things remain to do with it. Give it all away or go to war."
The wealth of Eve is now 237 Trillion. Players need more things to do with their money.
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Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles
Zzz
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Posted - 2009.04.13 16:21:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Salvo Brunel
In my opinion the secondary market is weak becuase there isn't a sufficiently strong reason for it to exist. It's not down to tools or mechanisms, there is no real need for a secondary market.
It only makes sense to lend to people who have a long and proven track record of making money. By definition these people have lots of money and don't really need the investment.
This is true. Looking at it another way, there are not a great deal of things that one can still do in EVE that are both worthwhile and large enough to warrant significant private investment. All that is left at the very largest scales is wholesale market manipulation.
I would quite like to see production of T1 items made much more complex and expensive, though not necessarily involving rare materials. At the very least, there should be greater incentives for people to move production away from empire space and into custom facilities - ones that will far outweigh the additional costs of hauling to and from the hubs.
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20:1 mineral compression
ISRC Racing, Season 7 - schedule |
Resiin
Aliastra
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Posted - 2009.04.13 17:51:00 -
[14]
A dictionary. Or some English classes in your case
Originally by: Tarminic
OH FOR THE LOVE OF CHRIST
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Xeoniya
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Posted - 2009.04.13 18:23:00 -
[15]
Liens would be a great start. I put a lien on your item in exchange for a loan, you pay be by some date or it is mine, in the mean time you get to use it. If it explodes and produces an insurance payout then the lien holder gets the payout. In addition make it a contract type that accepts multiple payments towards its counter.
I admit it isn't perfect, would prob work as a first stage.
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MinmatarCitizen100223041
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Posted - 2009.04.13 18:41:00 -
[16]
A specialized forum for the discussion of all kinds of stocks and their sale is needed.
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Drab Cane
Mining Emporium inc.
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Posted - 2009.04.13 21:02:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Xeoniya
Liens would be a great start. I put a lien on your item in exchange for a loan, you pay be by some date or it is mine, in the mean time you get to use it. If it explodes and produces an insurance payout then the lien holder gets the payout. In addition make it a contract type that accepts multiple payments towards its counter.
In-game liens would be awesome. The in-game mechanic that might be difficult to implement, though, is what to do if the asset is in space/stored at player POS.
If it's a Titan, is it just going to eject the current pilot and warp to somewhere in system?
What if its a smaller item, like a BPO? Is it teleported to the nearest NPC station?
-----------------------------------------------
- Who Dares, Wins
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Petyr Baelich
Taggart Transdimensional
Virtue of Selfishness
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Posted - 2009.04.13 21:56:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Caleb Ayrania
Since the solo, Crassus effect seem to be seeping in a lot in general, what is most lkely needed is tools to improve trust, and coop work. This both in relation to investment and in risk/reward.
The influx of isk and value ingame could be improved a lot if there was better regulation tools in relation to trust.
An overhaul to wardec and bounty system is an important part, and visible politics from standing would be useful to open up SOV space for more players.
Better Alliance and trading features would also be highly useful.
Above these I would say more features created by players, like exchanges and more player to player metagame activity.
 Never thought I'd find myself agreeing with Caleb, but I agree with all of these statements. Maybe Shar is rubbing off on you?
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Caleb Ayrania
Gallente
TarNec
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Posted - 2009.04.14 01:38:00 -
[19]
Oh no.. that cant be right..
without the grumpy gamer streak I hope :)
- Money is Love -
Sometimes it just gets bend the wrong ways.
Feed your Brain:
Innovation Thread |
Salvo Brunel
Clown Punchers Syndicate
|
Posted - 2009.04.14 12:04:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro
Looking at it another way, there are not a great deal of things that one can still do in EVE that are both worthwhile and large enough to warrant significant private investment. All that is left at the very largest scales is wholesale market manipulation.
One way of doing this would be to allow producers to significantly improve their production efficiency, by using expensive specialised equipment. To give an example you could purchase POS components costing 10s of billions, which would allow you to produce Ocular Filters more cheaply.
Clearly this change would transform the production market. It would be too radical to introduce for all products, but it could be introduced just for some products.
This change:
- Allows the growth of super producers - theoretically one producer per product type.
- Creates a more interesting competition dynamics - fixed costs vs. variable costs, monopoly, dumping, collusion.
- Creates a clear need for a secondary market - with assets which could be used to secure the financing.
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