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Xxxx Armor Compensation skill

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Elbie Klep	Posted - 2009.04.14 14:54:00 - [1] I am not sure what this skill is about. You get 3% bonus to active hardeners when they aren't active. I can't imagine a PvE or PvP context where I had an active hardener and I wouldn't turn it on. So this seems pretty useless. You get 5% bonus for passive hardeners. But nobody seems to use passive hardeners when they can use active hardeners and reppers for an armor tank. They might have an EANM 2 or DCU 2, but those aren't classed as hardeners. And if you are going for a shield tank, you would use the lows for something else than passive hardeners. So that doesn't seem very useful either. What am I missing?
Tosi	Posted - 2009.04.14 15:22:00 - [2] it affects eanms
Daugion Minmatar Hegemony Enterprises	Posted - 2009.04.14 15:23:00 - [3] With you armor compensation skills high enough those passive hardeners will be comparable with active ones, but without eating your cap, so you dont need to sacrifice slots for boosters or recharters. Basically thats why i use them, I dont like to be cap reliant so a completely passive setup is the way to go.
Aaronm100 Killer Koalas Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2009.04.14 16:45:00 - [4] Yeh with the compensation skills at IV the passive hardeners give the same resists as active modules, therefore you get the high resists - the cap usage. The compensation skills also effect EANM's which is useful too.
H Lecter Gallente The Black Rabbits Academy The Gurlstas Associates	Posted - 2009.04.14 17:52:00 - [5] Originally by: Elbie Klep But nobody seems to use passive hardeners when they can use active hardeners and reppers for an armor tank. ... What am I missing? You are missing PVP. Meet my Neutralizer Dominix of Doom and you'll be training the armor compensation skills to V and never fit active hardeners again Originally by: Rells First of all, I wouldn't give you the sweat off my balls.
AtheistOfDoom Amarr The Athiest Syndicate Advocated Destruction	Posted - 2009.04.14 23:35:00 - [6] Originally by: Aaronm100 Yeh with the compensation skills at IV the passive hardeners give the same resists as active modules, therefore you get the high resists - the cap usage. The compensation skills also effect EANM's which is useful too. no. Unless you get the really expensive deadspace versions maybe. And then, he killed the dog...
waruiushiro	Posted - 2009.04.15 00:54:00 - [7] You can't overheat the passive ones either.
Elbie Klep	Posted - 2009.04.15 03:43:00 - [8] Originally by: Aaronm100 Yeh with the compensation skills at IV the passive hardeners give the same resists as active modules, therefore you get the high resists - the cap usage. The compensation skills also effect EANM's which is useful too. Is there something else that counts as a passive armor hardener for the skill that I haven't found? If I skill EM Armor Compensation to L5, I get a 25% increase in performance. A passive Energized Reflecting Membrane II gives 37.5% base damage reduction. Appying the skill gives 1.25 * 37.5 = 46.9% damage reduction. But an active Armor EM Hardener II gives 55% damage reduction. Using the cap elsewhere is valuable, but is it really worth 15% less damage reduction?
Kuolematon Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United	Posted - 2009.04.15 05:20:00 - [9] Originally by: Aaronm100 .. with the compensation skills at IV the passive hardeners give the same resists as active modules .. LOL! True IV nub speaking I see. When they are at V (As all pro players should train 'em) they can be compared to active T2 hardeners when using faction or ds passive hardeners. "The Amarr are the tanking and ganking floating rods of ~~gold~~crap"
Infected Cure Caldari The Ninja Pirates Gang Bang Theory	Posted - 2009.04.15 21:33:00 - [10] I bought and trained all 4 of these skills a few days ago, trained them all to LVL 3 On my cruiser ship i was 45 24 24 25 w/ 1 ENAM After all 4 were trained to lvl 3 the same ship is now 47 25 25 26 not sure if it was worth the effort :L)
Elbie Klep	Posted - 2009.04.15 21:37:00 - [11] Originally by: Kuolematon Originally by: Aaronm100 .. with the compensation skills at IV the passive hardeners give the same resists as active modules .. LOL! True IV nub speaking I see. When they are at V (As all pro players should train 'em) they can be compared to active T2 hardeners when using faction or ds passive hardeners. OK, I should have thought about faction hardeners. But what are "ds" hardeners? Also, are there faction active hardeners with significantly better damage than vanilla market t2 hardeners? (I haven't seen any in the market but I wasn't paying attention until now.) [BTW, a Minmatar EM hardener yields 50% reduction so one only needs L2 skill to be comparable to a T2 active hardener (55% reduction), right?]
Jaina Proudmoar Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2009.04.15 22:06:00 - [12] Originally by: Elbie Klep Originally by: Kuolematon Originally by: Aaronm100 .. with the compensation skills at IV the passive hardeners give the same resists as active modules .. LOL! True IV nub speaking I see. When they are at V (As all pro players should train 'em) they can be compared to active T2 hardeners when using faction or ds passive hardeners. OK, I should have thought about faction hardeners. But what are "ds" hardeners? Also, are there faction active hardeners with significantly better damage than vanilla market t2 hardeners? (I haven't seen any in the market but I wasn't paying attention until now.) [BTW, a Minmatar EM hardener yields 50% reduction so one only needs L2 skill to be comparable to a T2 active hardener (55% reduction), right?] I assume "ds" hardeners are Deadspace hardeners.
Lilla Kharn Amarr	Posted - 2009.04.16 06:55:00 - [13] The skill also does not give a full 25%. At no time have I ever found a setup that's viable in pvp where the passive hardeners outdo the active ones. Active hardeners don't use much cap, can be overloaded, so the only point to training this is for the use of an EANM. ------------------------------- "Only the dead have seen the end of war" - Plato
Lady Spank Amarr Sekret Kool Klubb	Posted - 2009.04.16 16:55:00 - [14] once you meet a curse or similar nossing ship you are going to see why these skills are useful. eanm's are staple mods in pvp. Active tanks aren't the only kind. passive buffer tanks are pretty awesome tbh.
Anatal Klep	Posted - 2009.04.16 21:59:00 - [15] Originally by: Lilla Kharn The skill also does not give a full 25%. At no time have I ever found a setup that's viable in pvp where the passive hardeners outdo the active ones. Active hardeners don't use much cap, can be overloaded, so the only point to training this is for the use of an EANM. Why not 25%? What else is going on? Or are you saying that there is a bug in the software? Clearly EANMs are good for PvP because you can only guess at the DPS that will come at you. So if you outfit two EANMs that alone is a potent reason to max the skills. But a faction passive hardener is almost as good as a stock T2 active hardener. So you get an extra 15% or so less damage with max skills.
Anatal Klep	Posted - 2009.04.16 22:24:00 - [16] Originally by: Lady Spank once you meet a curse or similar nossing ship you are going to see why these skills are useful. The active hardeners only use 1W. So four hardeners will use about 1% of the power of a single turret on a BC/BS. Have you ever been in a situation where that made the difference in surviving? I can see it might be important on a FR, DD, or maybe a CR. But I can't see cap usage of active hardeners being a factor on a larger ship.
Shoa Jinn	Posted - 2009.04.16 22:55:00 - [17] Originally by: Anatal Klep Originally by: Lilla Kharn The skill also does not give a full 25%. At no time have I ever found a setup that's viable in pvp where the passive hardeners outdo the active ones. Active hardeners don't use much cap, can be overloaded, so the only point to training this is for the use of an EANM. Why not 25%? What else is going on? Or are you saying that there is a bug in the software? Clearly EANMs are good for PvP because you can only guess at the DPS that will come at you. So if you outfit two EANMs that alone is a potent reason to max the skills. But a faction passive hardener is almost as good as a stock T2 active hardener. So you get an extra 15% or so less damage with max skills. you dont get a hard 25% bonus to the module but you do get a 25% increase in its performance for you doubters... go fit a passive resist EHP damnation... nommeh
Lady Spank Amarr Sekret Kool Klubb	Posted - 2009.04.16 23:48:00 - [18] Originally by: Anatal Klep Originally by: Lady Spank once you meet a curse or similar nossing ship you are going to see why these skills are useful. The active hardeners only use 1W. So four hardeners will use about 1% of the power of a single turret on a BC/BS. Have you ever been in a situation where that made the difference in surviving? I can see it might be important on a FR, DD, or maybe a CR. But I can't see cap usage of active hardeners being a factor on a larger ship. I can, it happens believe me. and if you are down to 1% cap in a pvp situation, the state of your hardeners isn't your main concern.
Grann Thefauto Internal Anarchy	Posted - 2009.04.17 17:47:00 - [19] These skills are absolutely mandatory for pvp. 2 eanms and DCU 2 will always give you better overall resists than 3 active hardeners. With 3 active hardners you end up with a hole (usually EM). So it gives you very good overall resists and uses one less slot so you can put in a plate and have a nice passive tank. If you want to be completely cap independent, which is more valuable than you might think, the 2 eanms + DCU2 is the best you can do. DCU 2 uses cap, but I think its like 1 cap every minute or so, so its extremely difficult to shut off with neuts. That being said, if you want to active tank and have the slots for 2 reppers and 4 hardeners, a full active setup will give you better resists and a better tank when overheated. Active tanking however doesn't help you nearly as much as a buffer tank when fighting outnumbered.
arklin	Posted - 2009.04.17 19:51:00 - [20] After reading through the replies it looks like I don't completely understand how the compensation skills work. I originally though each level would add a straight 5% MORE on top of the base amount. ie. 20% passive becomes a 25/30/35/40/45% passive. What you're saying is that a 20% passive would become a 21/22/23/24/25% passive? I have all compensations trained to 3/4 but I guess as a mark of a noob, i just assumed I understood what the skill did and never looked into the actual gain. Can anyone clarify this for me? please. lol
Johho Bulon Gallente Freelancer Union Unaffiliated	Posted - 2009.04.17 21:41:00 - [21] Forget about EANM and Energized membranes, which the comp skill helps become very nice etc. Think about resistance plating, it uses 1 power and NO cpu. With the comp skills fully trained up, these can be very seriously useful alternatives that allow you to swap out an active or energized mod, use something in your fit that has high CPU and still have excellent resists. Particularly if you get your hands on the cheapy C-Type ones. A C-Type Nano plate, is practically the equivalent of an Energized T2 yet uses no CPU, excellent choice for Amarr pilots who are always short on CPU I'd think. Of course if you want uber resists then with all comp skills trained to V, then A-Type or better energized membranes have higher resist values than T2/Faction Active. But they are hugely expensive also and so probably best used on caps, and as already mentioned, cannot be overloaded, which can make an enormous difference as long they last before burning out and as your aren't neuted dry And if you're caught with your pants down and neuted dry whilst rolling with active hardeners then having V trained, may or may not be useful depending on if you are with friends, as you will not be dropping down to base resists but still have some (but not great) passive tankability. --------------- Once we have a war there is only one thing to do. It must be won. For defeat brings worse things than any that can ever happen in war. -- Ernest Hemingway
Johho Bulon Gallente Freelancer Union Unaffiliated	Posted - 2009.04.17 21:45:00 - [22] Originally by: arklin After reading through the replies it looks like I don't completely understand how the compensation skills work. I originally though each level would add a straight 5% MORE on top of the base amount. ie. 20% passive becomes a 25/30/35/40/45% passive. What you're saying is that a 20% passive would become a 21/22/23/24/25% passive? I have all compensations trained to 3/4 but I guess as a mark of a noob, i just assumed I understood what the skill did and never looked into the actual gain. Can anyone clarify this for me? please. lol it increases the resist by 5% per level, so if the resist such as an EANM is 20% with comp trained to I it's 20*1.05 = 21 Of course the higher the initial resist the better this skill becomes, Ded space and office EMs and NP are very nice with fully trained skills. --------------- Once we have a war there is only one thing to do. It must be won. For defeat brings worse things than any that can ever happen in war. -- Ernest Hemingway
Anatal Klep	Posted - 2009.04.18 16:10:00 - [23] Originally by: Shoa Jinn Originally by: Anatal Klep Why not 25%? What else is going on? Or are you saying that there is a bug in the software? you dont get a hard 25% bonus to the module but you do get a 25% increase in its performance for you doubters... go fit a passive resist EHP damnation... nommeh OK, I think you have to explain what you mean by 'performance'. AFAIK the performance at L5 skill would be: new damage resist = {base damage resist} * 1.25 Are you saying that is the "module bonus" and performance is something else?
Anatal Klep	Posted - 2009.04.18 16:34:00 - [24] Originally by: Lady Spank Originally by: Anatal Klep The active hardeners only use 1W. So four hardeners will use about 1% of the power of a single turret on a BC/BS. Have you ever been in a situation where that made the difference in surviving? I can see it might be important on a FR, DD, or maybe a CR. But I can't see cap usage of active hardeners being a factor on a larger ship. I can, it happens believe me. and if you are down to 1% cap in a pvp situation, the state of your hardeners isn't your main concern. I don't do a lot of PvP because I don't like EVE's combat system, so I'll defer to the preponderance of opinion that comp skills are essential. But I would still like to understand why. It seems to me your last sentence contradicts the first and is pretty much what I expected -- if you are down to 1% on your cap you have much bigger problems than active/passive hardeners so that choice isn't going to affect your survival except in extremely rare circumstances. So could you put some more words around this?
Anatal Klep	Posted - 2009.04.18 16:42:00 - [25] Originally by: Johho Bulon For Active hardeners, they have a base 1% resist when inactive. They get a total 3% per level resistance when inactive, from the comp skills. So a T1/T2/Faction/etc Hardener, that isn't active will have 3% resistance at level I and can have a maximum 15% resistance at level V to its specific damage type. But isn't that 15% for L5 skill applied to the base 1%? That is: new resist = 1 * 1.15 = 1.15%
Minnie Matarri Minmatar	Posted - 2009.04.18 17:17:00 - [26] Originally by: arklin After reading through the replies it looks like I don't completely understand how the compensation skills work. I originally though each level would add a straight 5% MORE on top of the base amount. ie. 20% passive becomes a 25/30/35/40/45% passive. What you're saying is that a 20% passive would become a 21/22/23/24/25% passive? I have all compensations trained to 3/4 but I guess as a mark of a noob, i just assumed I understood what the skill did and never looked into the actual gain. Can anyone clarify this for me? please. lol Ignore all the complex maths, it's simple really. If you face 1000 incoming DPS and resist 80% of it, you have to deal with 200 damage per second, if you can then increase your resists by an extra 2%, then you only have to deal with 180 damage per second. The point is that 2% is not a huge amount, but may make all the difference between being repairable or not. If you really need the maths, the extra increase per level works like this; R1=R+(R*R2) where R1=new resist, R=original resist, and R2=increase per level) Want to get rich? it's easy, spend less than you earn. Okay, move along, this is my sig.

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