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McDaddy Pimp Minmatar	Posted - 2009.04.16 09:55:00 - [1] Boost Rapier/Huggin pls lets see recons ship`s secondary EWAR effects... Curse/Pilgrim: Can hurt tracking - 25% bonus to tracking disruptor effectiveness. Arazu/Lachesis: Can hurt lock time/range - 25% bonus to damp effectiveness Rapier/Hugin: Can... target paint =/ - 37.5% bonus to painter effectiveness Tracking: fail against drones & missiles or anyone shooting slow stuff. Way better bonuses for energy neut anyway (also needs nerfed). Lock time/range: fail against anything that locks faster than you and kills you, or fights close range. Painters: ..... boost rapier plz Then there's the Falcon/Rook, even after the 'nerf': Bonus to ECM... can make any targets not do **** - THE END. Exceptions are pre-deployed drones that the owner can no longer control, FoF's that do their own thing at random and gimp your damage, and smartbombs that kill your friends. But those also apply to being damped and tracking disrupted, so no points there. So since CCP is now on a "balancing" frenzy... pls fix the Rapier/Huggin. Or better, fix TP mechanics. Something like : -Make TPs a dmg multiplier, not just res increase . ie; a TP`ed BS will receive more dmg from a non TP`ed one, even from smaller weapons. -Give it a script, for both increasing and decreasing sig radius -or give the Rapier/Huggin more TP bonus, 100% max maybe... -or some other cleaver stuff.. i know u guys can figure out something. oh and the QR web nerf.... but I think everybody is ok with that by now..
Xelios Minmatar Broski Enterprises Avarice.	Posted - 2009.04.16 10:17:00 - [2] Dropping the painting bonus for a web strength bonus would be pretty nice. Does anyone even fit a painter on a minmatar recon?
Ancy Denaries Caldari Solaris Operations	Posted - 2009.04.16 10:26:00 - [3] You fail to take into account that sig tanking is now one of thee premier forms of tank for small ships and sig is horrendously important in the tracking calculcation. Blow someones sig up = Make him easier to track AND to hit. Your job as a Rapier pilot is to pin down small support ships and tacklers for your bigger shipmates to take care of. An AF is deadly to a bigger ship. Web him twice from afar and blow him up with a TP...not so much. He'll die in seconds. Try it. ----- Why doesn't anyone ever read the forums before posting? EVE is a game of adaptation and planning. Adapt or die.
McDaddy Pimp Minmatar	Posted - 2009.04.16 10:56:00 - [4] Edited by: McDaddy Pimp on 16/04/2009 10:56:51 Originally by: Ancy Denaries You fail to take into account that sig tanking is now one of thee premier forms of tank for small ships and sig is horrendously important in the tracking calculcation. Blow someones sig up = Make him easier to track AND to hit. Your job as a Rapier pilot is to pin down small support ships and tacklers for your bigger shipmates to take care of. An AF is deadly to a bigger ship. Web him twice from afar and blow him up with a TP...not so much. He'll die in seconds. Try it. so killing AF is easier now, with TP, so does with a med/large neut, small drones etc. Try it. Are you saying Rapiers only good for small sig tanking ships? While other recons is useful for all the ship classes.. I`m questioning the secondary TP bonus here, compared to TDs and dampners, painters are the less useful and less used EWAR in PVP.
rgreat Gallente OEG GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.04.16 11:08:00 - [5] Well, Dampers on gallende recons are sucks too. I do not fit them at all already. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Xelios Minmatar Broski Enterprises Avarice.	Posted - 2009.04.16 11:22:00 - [6] Originally by: Ancy Denaries You fail to take into account that sig tanking is now one of thee premier forms of tank for small ships and sig is horrendously important in the tracking calculcation. Blow someones sig up = Make him easier to track AND to hit. Your job as a Rapier pilot is to pin down small support ships and tacklers for your bigger shipmates to take care of. An AF is deadly to a bigger ship. Web him twice from afar and blow him up with a TP...not so much. He'll die in seconds. Try it. Yeah it sounds good on paper, but practically speaking a dual webbed frigate with its mwd on already has a huge sig radius. The TP really does nothing more in this situation. A frig with its mwd off has a sig radius so low that a TP will hardly add anything, and while it'll make a bit of difference I'd much rather have another web on there as it's far more useful in just about every situation.
Melanie Miss	Posted - 2009.04.16 12:13:00 - [7] Edited by: Melanie Miss on 16/04/2009 12:13:59 Originally by: Xelios Dropping the painting bonus for a web strength bonus would be pretty nice. Does anyone even fit a painter on a minmatar recon? Yeah. Web strengt bonus would work out well.. :)
Typhado3 Minmatar Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium Aeternus.	Posted - 2009.04.16 12:41:00 - [8] imo give caldari the tp bonuses, drop them from minmatar and replace it with tracking disruptor bonuses. amarr lose tracking disruptors and gain some new ewar that does either heat dmg or possibly a second anti cap module that reduces the cap recharge time of a target ship. but I'm crazy so those probably aren't great ideas ccp fix mining agent missions % pls
Andrachim Tar'nar MorTech Labs	Posted - 2009.04.16 14:10:00 - [9] TP and WEBS will work really well with the new SB tho. Pretty much a perfect match.
Colonel Xaven Decadence. RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2009.04.16 14:24:00 - [10] Originally by: McDaddy Pimp Then there's the Falcon/Rook, even after the 'nerf': Bonus to ECM... can make any targets not do ** - THE END. You're doing something wrong it seems. Proud member of RZR - Decadence.**
chatgris Quantum Cats Syndicate	Posted - 2009.04.16 15:02:00 - [11] Originally by: Typhado3 imo give caldari the tp bonuses, drop them from minmatar and replace it with tracking disruptor bonuses. amarr lose tracking disruptors and gain some new ewar that does either heat dmg or possibly a second anti cap module that reduces the cap recharge time of a target ship. but I'm crazy so those probably aren't great ideas You sir, sparked an idea in my head. A common sense matching of EWAR with race! Give caldari the TP and sensor damp bonuses. Works GREAT with missiles already outranging other ships, and the TP is an obvious complement to missiles. Gallente are blaster boats anyways, LOL sensor damps. Give gallente energy neut bonuses, they are supposed to be the drone race, the high slots are useful for other things! Webs work well with minmatar already. ECM would work well with minmatar, since they are used to multiple weapon types, they should have the all around EWAR. Alright, some of this is sleep deprived madness, but I do think that the TP and sensor damps make more sense with caldari. If they were to be changed that is, right now they've been there so long it's almost part of the backstory :)
Seishi Maru M. Corp Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2009.04.16 15:49:00 - [12] CCP just needs to remove stack penalties from Target painters. THen they become VERY usefull on larger gangs.
Spurty Caldari Amok. Minor Threat.	Posted - 2009.04.16 16:18:00 - [13] Originally by: Seishi Maru CCP just needs to remove stack penalties from Target painters. THen they become VERY usefull on larger gangs. Especially if the target is bubbled! Makes your rapier paper thin fitting them though. Hmm this sounds like the falcon whine! Originally by: Butter Dog I think you'll find that 10 seconds > 1 month
Lilith Velkor Minmatar OVERLOAD. Dead Terrorists	Posted - 2009.04.16 16:57:00 - [14] Originally by: Xelios Dropping the painting bonus for a web strength bonus would be pretty nice. Does anyone even fit a painter on a minmatar recon? It doesnt need a web srength bonus. If you fit a target painter depends on if you are solo or in gang. Quote: CCP just needs to remove stack penalties from Target painters. THen they become VERY usefull on larger gangs. How do people get these ridiculous ideas? Do we really need to make citadel torps effective against frigates? Huginn could need a damage boost, Rapier is fine. I got more than 700 kills in these ships since QR patch, if you have problems you're doing it wrong.
Xelios Minmatar Broski Enterprises Avarice.	Posted - 2009.04.16 17:10:00 - [15] Quote: Huginn could need a damage boost, Rapier is fine. I got more than 700 kills in these ships since QR patch, if you have problems you're doing it wrong. Well, you got on kills with these ships. You can get on kills with an Ibis, it doesn't mean anything. Incidentally I like the Huginn and Rapier, I fly both and they're very useful in gangs. But always for the webs, never for the target painting. It's just a wasted bonus to a module that, 95% of the time, is totally irrelevant. There are plenty of other bonuses that the minmatar recons could actually use.
Isaac Starstriker Amarr Solaris Operations	Posted - 2009.04.16 17:12:00 - [16] Originally by: Xelios Quote: Huginn could need a damage boost, Rapier is fine. I got more than 700 kills in these ships since QR patch, if you have problems you're doing it wrong. Well, you got on kills with these ships. You can get on kills with an Ibis, it doesn't mean anything. Incidentally I like the Huginn and Rapier, I fly both and they're very useful in gangs. But always for the webs, never for the target painting. It's just a wasted bonus to a module that, 95% of the time, is totally irrelevant. There are plenty of other bonuses that the minmatar recons could actually use. Please, shut, up. Thanks. --Isaac P.S. They work fine as a tackler ship. Apparently you missed the role memo? Isaac's Haul*Mart - Open
Miyamoto Isoruku Caldari Noir.	Posted - 2009.04.16 17:51:00 - [17] 1: Get a couple of Rapiers with target painters. 2: Get a gang of newly torpedo-ized stealth bombers. 3: ??? 4: PROFIT. Please resize your sig to a maximum of 400 x 120 - Mitnal
Tvaishk Suzuki Long Night Industries	Posted - 2009.04.16 18:13:00 - [18] Originally by: Miyamoto Isoruku 1: Get a couple of Rapiers with target painters. 2: Get a gang of newly torpedo-ized stealth bombers. 3: ??? 4: PROFIT. oh dear I hadn't thought of that one that is very very scary idea. if the SB changes give us anything it might be there being another definitive use for Rapiers. --- Lieutenant, Mixed Metaphor Appliance Man
Lilith Velkor Minmatar OVERLOAD. Dead Terrorists	Posted - 2009.04.16 18:59:00 - [19] Edited by: Lilith Velkor on 16/04/2009 19:00:26 Originally by: Xelios Quote: Huginn could need a damage boost, Rapier is fine. I got more than 700 kills in these ships since QR patch, if you have problems you're doing it wrong. Well, you got on kills with these ships. You can get on kills with an Ibis, it doesn't mean anything. There are a lot of solo kills among these, and for the others, nobody in the gang would have gotten the killmail if there wasnt my double-webs keeping the target from escaping. Good enough to keep vagabonds from running away, nuff said really.
Roemy Schneider BINFORD	Posted - 2009.04.16 20:11:00 - [20] curse/pilgrim neut bonus is not an "EW bonus" - it's a full fledged damage bonus on top of the drones - putting the gist back into logistics
Typhado3 Minmatar Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium Aeternus.	Posted - 2009.04.17 00:36:00 - [21] Edited by: Typhado3 on 17/04/2009 00:40:26 The problem I see with the rapier is it isn't all that good at it's role. It's still a good ship but mostly cause it's decent damage or it's speed tank or it's shield buffer not it's actual role as a ewar support. tbh in most situations a ceptor can do the job better with a single web and a scram/disruptor and 2 cepters are definitely better. Now you could fit some TP's so it's doing it's proper job of ewar support but while they have great potential it is only ever useful in a few situations. The moment you get to a large gang they are useless as the primary target will be webbed and scrammed to all hell and since speed and sig radius effect each other a non moving target is already getting hit at max and making him bigger does nothing. In small gangs they can get some use but it's a risk choosing them over tank/webs/speed etc. and seeing as 1 web > 2 TP not that great an idea. Lastly the anti frigate/tackler support role.... the problem with this is most bc's or hac's can already do this role very well without the need for a rapier. Wth do u need to buy a 100 mil isk ship to help a 50 mil isk ship kill 20 mil isk ships a little bit faster? why not just get in one of those 50 mil isk ships and you'll kill them even faster. The only way the rapier comes close to being as useful as a bc/hac in this situation is cause it can put out decent damage itself, and it has a chance against tacklers at point blank (which u shouldn't really need unless your solo). ccp fix mining agent missions % pls
Lilith Velkor Minmatar OVERLOAD. Dead Terrorists	Posted - 2009.04.17 01:07:00 - [22] Edited by: Lilith Velkor on 17/04/2009 01:08:46 Originally by: Typhado3 The problem I see with the rapier is it isn't all that good at it's role. It's still a good ship but mostly cause it's decent damage or it's speed tank or it's shield buffer not it's actual role as a ewar support. tbh in most situations a ceptor can do the job better with a single web and a scram/disruptor and 2 cepters are definitely better. A ceptor does it quite nicely, until it meets a heavy neut, smartbombs, a sniper or a wave of warriors. Minmatar recons can do it while staying in relative safety in pair with a HIC while being able to provide target painting for the BSs to lock onto the target faster, if fit with a faction disruptor they are perfect solo tacklers. Not to mention they provide perfect cover against any ships relying on speed, can operate under sentry fire and cloak up on gates (rapier only) to avoid being spotted by scouts. If the fighting breaks out, they are golden to take care of any frigate class ships on their own (much much better than ceptors), and fitting a probe launcher the rapiers provide cover/warpins against snipers. While the rapiers damage output is kind of a joke against anything bar frigates, the Huginn works well against cruisers solo or in gang while remaining relatively safe itself.
Jbobj Minmatar Valklear Guard Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.04.17 05:11:00 - [23] Here is how I would buff Target Painters. Make them also decrease the targets armor/shield resitances New Tech I painter: 25% bonus to sig radius, -2.5% from shield/armor resistances New Tech II painter: 30% bonus to sig radius, -3% from shield/armor resistances Fully bonused rapier gets -4.125% shield/armor resistances If you are fully trained in painters you can get a max of -5.15% 4 Max bonused painters with stacking would make a targets resistances around 86.5% of what it used to be. Which isn't a ton, but is noticable. Normal painters would be quite less. It makes painters somewhat useful for Both small and big ships. They become useful for large fleet fights for sure, giving bonused painter ships a role there to make the primary fall just a little bit faster. They become useful at all times, in a small way. It's still a lot less pronouced effect then the other forms of ewar, but give them a role that can be useful in all situations in a smaller way.
Vladimir Norkoff Income Redistribution Service	Posted - 2009.04.17 08:58:00 - [24] Originally by: McDaddy Pimp Curse/Pilgrim: Can hurt tracking - 25% bonus to tracking disruptor effectiveness. Arazu/Lachesis: Can hurt lock time/range - 25% bonus to damp effectiveness Rapier/Hugin: Can... target paint =/ - 37.5% bonus to painter effectiveness Well TD and TP are both pretty darn handy. TD is great on a Pilgrim out solo-ing turret ships. A TD or two and a close orbit make a Pilgrim pretty much invulnerable. Can also be effective in gangs if you have small ships attacking larger ships. And Painters are fantastic in gangs of 5+. Should always have at least one guy with a TP. And if that guy is a Rapier/Huginn it's even better. Having your entire gang hitting the primary with better quality hits makes it die a whole lot quicker. Especially good if you have missile spammers. Admittedly, TP isn't so useful in a 1v1 situation. But why would you take a recon into a 1v1 anyway? Damps on the other hand? They just suck. Only useful in a some very specific situations. Regardless, would still agree that the Rapier/Huginn need a boost. Web nerf hit them pretty hard. Taxman VII: Kingdom of Vlad
ollobrains Caldari State Inc.	Posted - 2009.04.17 09:09:00 - [25] Sweet the curse-faclon combo has been replaced by the huggin, stealth bomber ( torps) combo which now matches my skills good work ccp i am now uber
Necromundi	Posted - 2009.06.24 15:28:00 - [26] Edited by: Necromundi on 24/06/2009 15:31:09 Originally by: McDaddy Pimp Edited by: McDaddy Pimp on 16/04/2009 10:56:51 Originally by: Ancy Denaries You fail to take into account that sig tanking is now one of thee premier forms of tank for small ships and sig is horrendously important in the tracking calculcation. Blow someones sig up = Make him easier to track AND to hit. Your job as a Rapier pilot is to pin down small support ships and tacklers for your bigger shipmates to take care of. An AF is deadly to a bigger ship. Web him twice from afar and blow him up with a TP...not so much. He'll die in seconds. Try it. so killing AF is easier now, with TP, so does with a med/large neut, small drones etc. Try it. Are you saying Rapiers only good for small sig tanking ships? While other recons is useful for all the ship classes.. I`m questioning the secondary TP bonus here, compared to TDs and dampners, painters are the less useful and less used EWAR in PVP. McDaddy, you shouldn't compare TP with Neut, especially not to say that "OMG neut would be better in against AFs". TP is a mid slot, Neuts are high slots. And as i see it highslots tend to be more important. And being Amarr, who are the unofficial neut-race, sacrificing your highslots are very costly. I could however think of some intresting redesigns when it comes to neuts/nos, sure nerf them abit but make them midslots, and change the 10% cap reduction to energy weapons per lvl on close to all (Not on ships with very few midslots) Amarr ships into nos/neut bonuses. (I'm SO sick of that 10% cap reduction per lvl to gunns on Amarr ships) Originally by: chatgris Originally by: Typhado3 imo give caldari the tp bonuses, drop them from minmatar and replace it with tracking disruptor bonuses. amarr lose tracking disruptors and gain some new ewar that does either heat dmg or possibly a second anti cap module that reduces the cap recharge time of a target ship. but I'm crazy so those probably aren't great ideas You sir, sparked an idea in my head. A common sense matching of EWAR with race! Give caldari the TP and sensor damp bonuses. Works GREAT with missiles already outranging other ships, and the TP is an obvious complement to missiles. Gallente are blaster boats anyways, LOL sensor damps. Give gallente energy neut bonuses, they are supposed to be the drone race, the high slots are useful for other things! Webs work well with minmatar already. ECM would work well with minmatar, since they are used to multiple weapon types, they should have the all around EWAR. Alright, some of this is sleep deprived madness, but I do think that the TP and sensor damps make more sense with caldari. If they were to be changed that is, right now they've been there so long it's almost part of the backstory :) Some of these ideas should be worth looking into, but i have to argue with you on some points. Sensor Damps works well with galente BECAUSE they are blaster-boats, not despite of it. Damps force hostiles to come into your weapons range if they want to be able to lock you, and if you are in a small ship, the extra targeting delay will allow you to get up close and personal before they have managed to get a lock on you. TPs, hm intresting to give them to caldari, it would boost their long range missiles alot. But TPs also work very nicly with Artys... ECM on minmater would indeed be something they might aprove of, and more web bonuses aswell. Or perhaps a leech-web, that takes hostiles speed and give it to yourself. Thus working well with the minmatar philosophy of being the fastest race. Keep the neuts/noses with the Amarr. (look above for what i want to do with them) But i supose, that in the end, changing EWAR between races will cause more rage then aproval, since everyone will have to retrain their EWAR skills.
Mavrk	Posted - 2009.06.25 06:59:00 - [27] OP whines because he thinks his recon is gimped. Fixing: RECONS 101 brought to you by: Mavrk Recons are fleet support ships, as in, not meant to be used solo. each one has a purpose, some purposes are seen as more advantageous than others. Caldari: The EWAR kings, it makes sense that they have the best out there. Sure they can take a ship out of the game for 20 seconds, but with the new balancings, they are closer to the fight than before and much more vulnerable. These are the best for any gang size, making them particularly good at anti support and other utilities. Amarr: Amarr are masters of energy. They're ships have some of the best capacitors, and they use friggin laser beams as weapons. It makes sense that they'd create more advance systems for draining and disrupting enemy ship's energy grids. On top of that, Amarr squabble with Minmatar makes sense that tracking disruptors would throw off AC's, where range is short, therefore tracking is vital. Gallente: Gallente recons are somewhat gimped for alot of players, but they do serve one great purpose. They are the essential recon to take along during sniper engagments to hold down an enemy and keep him from firing back at you/your teamates. ALSO, the Gallente recons are great to have at gatecamps, where people MWD back to gate/out of bubble before any one locks them. Range boost to scrams means that MWD's get shafted from a range similar to a normal point. Minmatar: It seems that all races EWAR is usually best used against themselves. Caldari cant snipe if they cant target. Gallente can't MWD onto you if they're scrammed. Amarr can't shoot/hit when they're being neuted/disrupted. And Minmatar Die when they cant move fast enough to negate some damage. The Minnie Recon is great for holding people down to get hit harder by the gang. I'd take a rapier pilot in my fleet any day. TL:DR - Caldari make it so you cant hurt, Amarr make it so you cant tank, Gallente make it so you cant leave, and Minmatar make it so you take full damage. Working as intended. Sry the Rapier/Huggin arent solo beasts
Rordan D'Kherr Amarr	Posted - 2009.06.25 09:19:00 - [28] Let's see strawberry cranberry raspberry Can you turn my strawberries into raspberries please? Or better: I want a STRAWCRANRASPBERRYBERRY!
Yankunytjatjara	Posted - 2009.06.25 23:24:00 - [29] Originally by: Tvaishk Suzuki Originally by: Miyamoto Isoruku 1: Get a couple of Rapiers with target painters. 2: Get a gang of newly torpedo-ized stealth bombers. 3: ??? 4: PROFIT. oh dear I hadn't thought of that one that is very very scary idea. if the SB changes give us anything it might be there being another definitive use for Rapiers. Welcome to apocrypha :) BTW CCP just published a blog with the force recons, check it out. It seems that the less wanted is amarr, rapier being still second. I think that's an indication that it's all right, especially given the relatively smaller minmatar player base. It would be interesting to see the followup of those graphs and check some months after the ecm nerf how the caldari ones go.
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.06.26 00:21:00 - [30] TPs are fine. TPs are like webs, except with a longer range....Did I mention that they help, even when the transversal is created by you?

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