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Azlor
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Posted - 2009.04.21 15:02:00 -
[1]
The main aggravation of serious market trading in Eve is the player who tries to get product with a one-penny increase over the existing buy order. What does it possibly accomplish to have a buy order for a tech 2 armor repairer for 1,000,000.01 topping the existing order for 1,000,000?
This could be easily fixed. Just change the programming to make the system ignore any price difference that is less than 1%. Thus, these 3 buy offers would get equal chance of being filled:
Hammerhead II 640,000.05
Hammerhead II 640,001.00
Hammerhead II 640,000.00
In this particular example, you would have to offer to buy a Hammerhead for $6400 more than the existing offer (a 1% increase) to be sure you get the next purchaser.
And this should be easy to implement: write computer code rounding all prices to the nearest 1% before allocating them to a buyer or seller
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Robert Caldera
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Posted - 2009.04.21 15:12:00 -
[2]
why??
Why does it matter in which steps the market wars are fought??
They will always do in the least possible steps, what makes sense to over-/underbid a competitor without taking an unneccessary loss of ISK.
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Neo Omni
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.04.21 15:16:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: Azlor
The main aggravation of serious market trading in Eve is the player who tries to get product with a one-penny increase over the existing buy order. What does it possibly accomplish to have a buy order for a tech 2 armor repairer for 1,000,000.01 topping the existing order for 1,000,000?
This could be easily fixed. Just change the programming to make the system ignore any price difference that is less than 1%. Thus, these 3 buy offers would get equal chance of being filled:
Hammerhead II 640,000.05
Hammerhead II 640,001.00
Hammerhead II 640,000.00
In this particular example, you would have to offer to buy a Hammerhead for $6400 more than the existing offer (a 1% increase) to be sure you get the next purchaser.
And this should be easy to implement: write computer code rounding all prices to the nearest 1% before allocating them to a buyer or seller
That is really done by stupid people that think .01 isk is going to make a difference to the consumer. In a case like that, what the consumer will do is look at ease of delivery.
Let's see, get it for 1000.00 here or get it for 999.99 seven jumps away?
What would you do? |
Robert Caldera
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Posted - 2009.04.21 15:26:00 -
[4]
the 0.01 difference is only relevant for people trading on the same station where the lowest seller always sells. |
Azlor
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Posted - 2009.04.21 15:29:00 -
[5]
It is true it is most relevant to people trading at market hubs.
It matters a lot. The purpose of bidding wars is to benefit all players by getting prices into balance. It should reward the player truly willing to pay more to get the item. That is what markets are about. Then higher prices will bring more supplies.
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Sturdy Girl
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Posted - 2009.04.21 16:29:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Sturdy Girl on 21/04/2009 16:38:50
I dont understand the point in this thread?
What, exactly, is supposed to be broken that it needs a fix?
Also:
Quote:
What does it possibly accomplish to have a buy order for a tech 2 armor repairer for 1,000,000.01 topping the existing order for 1,000,000?
Obviously what is accomplished, is the person putting the 1,000,000.01 order gets that order filled before the 1,000,000 order. I don't understand; what is the problem you have with this?
Oh, and welcome to market PVP.
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Sturdy Girl
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Posted - 2009.04.21 16:38:00 -
[7]
Also...
What if 2 people are buying tritanium at 1.00 and 1.01 isk prices.
If I'm selling 1 billion units of this, I would DEFINATELY sell to the guy with the 1.01 isk order, as that is 1% higher income than the 1.00 order.
In fact, I'd be bloody irritated if my order got filled by the 1.00 guy, as I would have lost out on 10 million isk.
Why should the person filling a buy order (or the person buying from a sell order) end up penalised just because certain market traders do not like the idea of free market trade, and want some sort of socialist system put into place?
Basically... this idea isn't very 'EVE'.
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Teras Menac
Gallente
Action Inc.
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Posted - 2009.04.21 16:43:00 -
[8]
Yeah, and while we're at it why is it fair that the guy who has just 1% more DPS wins the fight? If the difference is less than 1% there should be some mechanism to make it more fair. 
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Rolza
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Posted - 2009.04.21 16:48:00 -
[9]
Tritanium at 1.00 versus 1.01 is indeed a 1% difference. It would be relevant and it would count under my proposed rule.
These folks are still not getting it. The question is what behavior should the market reward?
It should reward people willing to pay more for goods, or sell them for less. This is what markets are for. This gets the most people the most goods they want at the lowest price.
It should not reward people sitting at their computer terminals squabbling over inconsequential amounts of ISK.
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Sturdy Girl
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Posted - 2009.04.21 16:52:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Sturdy Girl on 21/04/2009 16:55:24
Originally by: Rolza
...
Ok, change those prices to:
2.00 and 2.01
Which makes it 0.5% difference.
On a sale of 1 billion units, again I would still be 10 million isk out of pocket.
Explain to me why I should put up with that?
And... they are NOT squabbling about insignificant amounts of isk. Certainly, 0.01 isk is very small, but that is not what is being squabbled over. They're squabbling over the actual custom itself, not what the customers are paying.
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Hariya
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Posted - 2009.04.21 17:00:00 -
[11]
What works in real life is asymmetricity of information. No one knows the exact offer of competitors, and even when they have some idea there are delays in the information.
Just remove the visibility of orders and things get fixed very fast.
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Cyprus Black
Caldari
Elitist Jerks
Dara Cothrom
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Posted - 2009.04.21 17:17:00 -
[12]
Kinda reminds me of The Price Is Right when someone bids $500 and the ******* next to them bits $501.
______________
Some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn. |
Jaina Proudmoar
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2009.04.21 17:19:00 -
[13]
I agree that there is a problem - I disagree on your fix.
Proposed solution (there is slight similarity to what happens in contracts):
When changing the price of an item, you are charged a "relisting" cost, this cost is 10 000 ISK *plus* 1% of the value of the item being listed (with skills reducing the % amount).
For example, if you were to change the price of a Vagabond from <some number> to 100 million ISK, you would be charged:
10 000 + (1% of 100 000 000)
10 000 + 1 000 000
Total cost: 1 010 000
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Daedalus II
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Posted - 2009.04.21 17:31:00 -
[14]
Well this is market PvP, if you don't want to sit and change your orders every 5 minutes due to someone else overbidding you with 0.01 isk you don't have to participate. There are several options:
* Choose another item to trade in that isn't as popular
* Choose another station/region that isn't as popular
* Overbid by so much that the competition don't want to follow
* Stop playing the market game and just directly buy what you want to have
As can be seen, there are several options to avoid the 0.01 isk problem, but they are all less profitable.
Funny enough it shows that the more work you put into the market the more money you make! Wierd isn't it? Seems to follow the same trend as the rest of the game...
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Tarron Sarek
Gallente
Biotronics Inc.
Alternative Realities
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Posted - 2009.04.21 18:40:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Tarron Sarek on 21/04/2009 18:41:09
I agree to some extend.
Market PvP should be tactical, not grind.
Just as 'real' PvP should be decided by tactic, fitting, experience and skill.
Right now the market is mostly grind: The one who puts in the most time will very likely win.
Therefore introducing some kind of risk/reward and careful planning wouldn't hurt the market in EVE.
If price changes would cost more, it would at a certain point become unprofitable to further compete with other sellers.
Then on the other hand some of the symptoms we're talking about are due to the market structure in EVE, namely a good amount of oversupply and the effort required to find several different things, nearby and cheap.
It's easiest to just blindly visit the next market hub where you, hopefully, will find everything you want, instead of searching and shuttling around.
That's why traders all gather at certain locations. That's why bidding and undercutting is such a grind.
It's not just the 0.01 steps. It's the whole market structure that should be looked at.
I don't think everything should be changed.
But all the aspects and factors should be taken into consideration when searching for improvements.
___________________________________
Balance is power, guard hide it well
"Ceterum censeo Polycarbonem esse delendam" |
Roland Grey
Gallente
Nexus Aerospace Corporation
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Posted - 2009.04.21 19:08:00 -
[16]
The idea is ridiculous - and this is coming from someone that is consistantly being outbid on items due to RL commitments.
It's not about the price of the item - it's about filling the order. You want 1,000,000 units of Tritanium and there's an existing order for 4.05... do you list at 4.05 as well and wait for the first order to be filled and then get yours filled, or do you price at 4.06 and get it over with.
Same with sell order... you want to sell your shiny 10 Tech-2 items you just manufactured and the lowest price at a hub is 10,000 ISK. If you want to sell fast, you price at 9,999.99 ISK, and people buy yours first. Some people get annoyed (me) and drop by more (20, 200, 1000) to see just how low the other sellers are willing to go.
In both cases: This is called a free market. This is how prices are set. Deal with it. |
Daedalus II
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Posted - 2009.04.21 19:17:00 -
[17]
Having a higher price for changing orders would only result in one thing imo:
Enormous orders put up by the ones with billions upon billions. For anyone else the high price to change their order would quickly result in loss of money, but for those with 500 mil in one order, 10000 or even 100000 isn't that much split over the entire order.
Large markets like Jita would grind to a halt with only the super wealthy taking all the orders while the little man is outbid within minutes.
The market is fine as it is. I can't see any way to improve it. If you don't want to be in a bidding war in jita, don't put up orders in jita! |
Robert Caldera
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Posted - 2009.04.21 19:36:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Robert Caldera on 21/04/2009 19:38:02
Edited by: Robert Caldera on 21/04/2009 19:36:55
Originally by: Tarron Sarek
Market PvP should be tactical, not grind.
there is no tactic, the prices move up and down and you mostly are willing to sell/buy to the market price resulting in under-/overbidding to the next possible value, everything else is dumb and makes no sense excepting for market manipulation but this has to follow the market laws as well... |
CrestoftheStars
Caldari
Perkone
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Posted - 2009.04.21 20:21:00 -
[19]
i would say any price change that is less then 10%.
but supported |
CrestoftheStars
Caldari
Perkone
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Posted - 2009.04.21 20:22:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Neo Omni
Originally by: Azlor
The main aggravation of serious market trading in Eve is the player who tries to get product with a one-penny increase over the existing buy order. What does it possibly accomplish to have a buy order for a tech 2 armor repairer for 1,000,000.01 topping the existing order for 1,000,000?
This could be easily fixed. Just change the programming to make the system ignore any price difference that is less than 1%. Thus, these 3 buy offers would get equal chance of being filled:
Hammerhead II 640,000.05
Hammerhead II 640,001.00
Hammerhead II 640,000.00
In this particular example, you would have to offer to buy a Hammerhead for $6400 more than the existing offer (a 1% increase) to be sure you get the next purchaser.
And this should be easy to implement: write computer code rounding all prices to the nearest 1% before allocating them to a buyer or seller
That is really done by stupid people that think .01 isk is going to make a difference to the consumer. In a case like that, what the consumer will do is look at ease of delivery.
Let's see, get it for 1000.00 here or get it for 999.99 seven jumps away?
What would you do?
when you buy it without details (buy from station) you always gets the lowest. so you get the one that is 0.01 lower |
Teras Menac
Gallente
Action Inc.
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Posted - 2009.04.21 20:45:00 -
[21]
Us market PVPers who outbid you by .01 are also going to outbid you if you drop the price by 10 isk. There certainly is a lot of tactical elements to it, even the way it's setup. If you drop the price significantly, you might just find me buying up your entire stock so that I can make a profit. If you don't want to compete against me, PM me and make me an offer to buy up your stock, I very well might. (Not right now, I took a bath on Hounds at the time of the patch) ;) What you are complaining about is that we want to make a profit. I guess you just don't play the market very often, and don't see the prices of your goods dropping by literally millions of isk due to market PVP. I have a particular item I've been milking in a trade hub for the past 8 or 9 months. People will pay a really high price for the item, and sometimes people will come and outbid me by 30 isk right off the bat, it's really annoying, and yes, I am going to drop my price too because it's still profitable, but not by 30 isk because that wouldn't be profitable.
If a unit of large ammo costs about 130 isk, and I have to drop the price by 1% per unit then I have to drop it by 1.3 isk per unit, multiply that by 500,000 units and that's roughly 800k every time I have to drop it. Why should I have to reduce my revenue by millions of isk in a bidding war just to satisfy your arbitrary market controls?
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Dakt NiRuthgar
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Posted - 2009.04.21 20:59:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Tarron Sarek
Right now the market is mostly grind: The one who puts in the most time will very likely win.
Therefore introducing some kind of risk/reward and careful planning wouldn't hurt the market in EVE.
If price changes would cost more, it would at a certain point become unprofitable to further compete with other sellers.
This already exists as there are many traders who, in an effort to completely dodge the 0.01 ISK wars, just drop their orders by a certain larger sum and see who follows. Many 0.01ers will NOT follow and will wait for the guy who dropped/raised his bid by a significant amount to fulfill his/her order and then keep on 0.01ing (unless they have a feeling that the demand on the good cannot meet the competitor's order... in which case they may very well be willing to drop down too.)
In any case, there are still tactical and planning elements to all of it. And if you play it right and play with the larger trends and patterns, you can rise above the 0.01 ISK wars, set your orders at a relatively reasonable price so that you make a tidy profit, and play the macro game. Sure you won't make quite as much on the margins as those 0.01ers... but that's the reward they get for being willing to play the 0.01 game.
So... what's wrong again?
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Tigman II
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Posted - 2009.04.21 21:23:00 -
[23]
I don't even know why this is being brought up as an issue. The market changes by 0.01 cuz it exists as a value. So now we are talking about this value to not exist so people can't make changes by that factor. I believe in free uncontrolled market. Competition also leads to lower prices as sellers will compete with each other which doesn't matter if itĘs by 0.01 or 1k or 1m. It will still lower the price. In no way I want my prices rounded and me losing that difference. There is tons of ways to skip the 0.01 fight. Jita is not the only place for trade and there are a lot of systems where the war is made at bigger numbers.
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Hesod Adee
Dark-Rising
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Posted - 2009.04.22 02:52:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Tarron Sarek
Edited by: Tarron Sarek on 21/04/2009 18:41:09
I agree to some extend.
Market PvP should be tactical, not grind.
Just as 'real' PvP should be decided by tactic, fitting, experience and skill.
Right now the market is mostly grind: The one who puts in the most time will very likely win.
This is only true if you define "winning" as "filling the buy order first". But if you planned ahead and had a decent stockpile of the items you were buying, you can set a reasonable buy order and ignore the people pricing a higher buy order because yours will get filled before your stockpile runs too low. So why do you need your order filled in a hurry ?
Also if you play the 0.01ISK game with buy orders, it also means that you pay more per unit than if you had ignored it because your pushing your buy price up. All because you didn't plan ahead.
It's the same for sell orders. When I sell things and someone under bids me, I have two choices:
1 - Let them sell first because I know that my items will sell eventually at the price I set. Sure, I don't get the ISK as quick as them. But I don't need the ISK in a hurry, and patience gets me more ISK because I sell at a higher price.
2 - Play the 0.01 ISK game, driving both our prices down until it's low enough for a price fixer to buy up both our orders and resell them at a higher price.
I can afford to wait, and I get more ISK if I don't play it. So why should I play the 0.01 ISK game with my sell orders ?
So I don't see a problem.
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Sturdy Girl
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Posted - 2009.04.22 14:27:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Sturdy Girl on 22/04/2009 14:28:50
The market is probably the most non-broken part of this game. Every part of this game could be improved, but the market as about as good as it can get.
Adding stupid trade restrictions will cripple the most impressive feature of this game, without actually solving any problems:
If you put a minimum order change mechanic, people will always just undercut (or overbid) by that minimum instead of 0.01 isk. You'll have the same wars you always had, its just the prices will fluctuate more wildly.
Plus - if someone undercuts (or overbids) you by 0.01 isk, or by 10000000 isk, the effect to you is the same; your orders will not be filled until theirs have been, or you undercut/overbid them. The only difference is, its easier to counter-undercut/overbid if they have only changed by 0.01 isk, without affecting your profits to much. |
Teras Menac
Gallente
Action Inc.
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Posted - 2009.04.22 17:56:00 -
[26]
I'd change the market so that the person whose order you click on is the person who you buy from.
I'd also change some of the interface like how the wallets display, so that the personal wallet doesn't display the total of your corporate orders and your corporate wallet displays the total of your corporate orders.
Also, I'd change it so that corporate officers can adjust trades made by other people in the corp.
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Robert Caldera
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Posted - 2009.04.22 18:51:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Teras Menac
I'd change the market so that the person whose order you click on is the person who you buy from.
I'd also change some of the interface like how the wallets display, so that the personal wallet doesn't display the total of your corporate orders and your corporate wallet displays the total of your corporate orders.
Also, I'd change it so that corporate officers can adjust trades made by other people in the corp.
the first is not that good, personal preferences should not affect markets, only financial (prices).
the latter 2 are great. |
ImCoolerThanYou
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Posted - 2009.04.22 19:38:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Daedalus II
Well this is market PvP, if you don't want to sit and change your orders every 5 minutes due to someone else overbidding you with 0.01 isk you don't have to participate. There are several options:
* Choose another item to trade in that isn't as popular
* Choose another station/region that isn't as popular
* Overbid by so much that the competition don't want to follow
* Stop playing the market game and just directly buy what you want to have
As can be seen, there are several options to avoid the 0.01 isk problem, but they are all less profitable.
Funny enough it shows that the more work you put into the market the more money you make! Wierd isn't it? Seems to follow the same trend as the rest of the game...
Thank you for typing that.
Originally by: Teras Menac
Also, I'd change it so that corporate officers can adjust trades made by other people in the corp.
I would love to LOL at the people losing billions to CEO's who change their corp members sell orders from 1,600,000,000 to .01 and then buy it up. |
Trebor Daehdoow
Gallente
Sane Industries Inc.
United Freemen Alliance
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Posted - 2009.04.22 21:56:00 -
[29]
What would be much more useful, for both sellers and buyers and the market in general, would be if the advanced options dialog let you specify both a minimum and maximum price for an order.
Example: you want to sell your billion units of Trit. You specify a max price of 4.30 (this is the same as the current sales price) and a min price of, say, 4.15. Your order starts off at 4.30, then every few hours, it is automatically changed to be *equal to* (not less than!) the current lowest bid, but not lower, but only matching against orders that are have a *larger* quantity than yours, and only changing your bid if it results in a change of position in the ranking order. Similarly, if your bid could be increased without changing your position, it gets increased. You would specify the range of the price matching (station, system, n-jumps, region) as well.
This would effectively automate a lot of the .01 isking, while guarding against people playing games with 1-unit orders and unreasonable prices.
A similar concept would work with buy orders.
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Thetys
Caldari
Breed of Malakka
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Posted - 2009.04.22 22:22:00 -
[30]
where is the bus...?
...full of people who are interested in this!
who cares, the price wars are ok, scared of competition? go play tetris!
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