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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Murixo
M. Corp Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2009.05.05 00:14:00 -
[31]
I've got a bit of spare at the moment, and I can't be faffed to arse about. So I'll take the rest at your asking price. 3.3b @ 7%.
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720
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Posted - 2009.05.05 00:16:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Kazzac Elentria
Originally by: Thoraemond
Originally by: 720 As soon as I can earn enough from trade to fund a second account I will be moving characters so as to be able to at least have an audit performed on my trade toon as it were.
Any audit that claims to be thorough will probably need to include all of your accounts.
everyone should pay heed to the underlined.
There is something shady there
You know Kazzac, when you put it that way it does look plenty bad.
What I am trying to do is separate my trade activities which I'd like to be transparent, and my play activities, which currently require opacity. Now that you mention it, separate accounts really won't achieve the goal I was hoping for, will it?
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Biruni Khan
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Posted - 2009.05.05 00:44:00 -
[33]
Isk sent.
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Estel Arador
Minmatar Estel Arador Corp Services
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Posted - 2009.05.05 00:46:00 -
[34]
Originally by: 720 What I am trying to do is separate my trade activities which I'd like to be transparent, and my play activities, which currently require opacity. Now that you mention it, separate accounts really won't achieve the goal I was hoping for, will it?
It won't. How would we know whether your separating your trade 'toon' and your play character or your trade 'toon' and your scamming main? If you're not giving all the information to the auditor, it might well be the same to us.
FREE! jumpclone service - over 200 locations! |
Varo Jan
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.05.05 01:14:00 -
[35]
Originally by: 720 What I am trying to do is separate my trade activities which I'd like to be transparent, and my play activities, which currently require opacity. Now that you mention it, separate accounts really won't achieve the goal I was hoping for, will it?
I¦d suggest the minimum goal you¦re really looking for is 4 months GTC funding. Wouldn¦t it be more honest just to say that? A 15% return isn¦t exactly a stretch target in this environment.
Please correct me if I¦m wrong, but I believe DBank¦s rate for 4 month CDs is 7%. If so, how do you justify your rate?
How much collateral are you putting up on this bond?
If the answer is nothing at all, how do you justify that? If the answer is more than zero, please provide specifics, not fluff.
But... my compliments on a smooth selling job. Nice, glossy presentation. Very polite and measured response to all questions. You could be a Xerox salesman. On a plan with zero substance, no(?) collateral, no audit, no controls, and no specific reporting structure you¦ve still managed to get everything you wanted.
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Kazzac Elentria
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Posted - 2009.05.05 02:30:00 -
[36]
Originally by: 720
What I am trying to do is separate my trade activities which I'd like to be transparent, and my play activities, which currently require opacity. Now that you mention it, separate accounts really won't achieve the goal I was hoping for, will it?
Not really nope, basically at this point you're tied to this account, have a known history with this account and moving toons won't change a thing because any future plans people will ask
"What about your other account?"
I genuinely think you're earnest with your responses which is why I haven't gone full on into attack mode. Not labeling you a scammer or anything, but bear in mind even some of the most respectable people around here have dealings with pirates in the background. So you really have nothing to loose here by a simple verification of activities. |
Zen Mehari
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Posted - 2009.05.05 09:25:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Varo Jan Please correct me if I¦m wrong, but I believe DBank¦s rate for 4 month CDs is 7%. If so, how do you justify your rate?
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Bad Bobby
Ugly Toys Zzz
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Posted - 2009.05.05 09:27:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Zen Mehari
Originally by: Varo Jan Please correct me if I¦m wrong, but I believe DBank¦s rate for 4 month CDs is 7%. If so, how do you justify your rate?
Not any more it isn't.
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Dzil
Caldari Second Quadrant Ice Division
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Posted - 2009.05.05 20:41:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Kazzac Elentria
Originally by: 720
What I am trying to do is separate my trade activities which I'd like to be transparent, and my play activities, which currently require opacity. Now that you mention it, separate accounts really won't achieve the goal I was hoping for, will it?
Not really nope, basically at this point you're tied to this account, have a known history with this account and moving toons won't change a thing because any future plans people will ask
"What about your other account?"
I genuinely think you're earnest with your responses which is why I haven't gone full on into attack mode. Not labeling you a scammer or anything, but bear in mind even some of the most respectable people around here have dealings with pirates in the background. So you really have nothing to loose here by a simple verification of activities.
Well, that all depends. This is EVE - and if you do have something to hide, there's no guarantees the auditor wouldn't use something learned in the process to gain advantage on you/ your alts as well. Information and prestige are invaluable assets, the multi titan multi region BOB was brought down by a single, well placed irate director. Frankly Kazzac, no personal offense intended, but I don't trust you any more or less than 720. Why should I (or any investor) feel inclined to believe that 720 should trust you with access to all of his information?
I can see where, in spite of it being the gold standard of the second hand market, some folks might put forth proposals that don't include getting to peek into their altfolio.
The way this audit mechanic has been established in MD would concern me if I were a public investor, an oligarchy of trust is being fabricated, but on what grounds? The same folks that say prior history of success could just be buildup to a good scam seem to ignore that prior history of solid auditing could mask a hidden exploitation of that same data, or the intent to do so in the future.
Again, not to call anyone a scammer, but the very thing you're implying is possible, could also be said to be possible of you. Or me. I think the lack of audit was beaten to death on page one.
At this point, here's what we have: The OP ran a 1bil investment without an audit, all investors were satisfied. True to CosmoRay's prediction, the OP is now running a 4 bil investment (5bil was predicted) with no audit. Investors are already chosen, so the only reason to continue to critique this is to be in a better position to say "I told you so" at the end, if a scam emerges. That said, if the OP does indeed follow this up with a 20bil+ investment with an audit, and scams you all, I WILL LAUGH MY ASS OFF, as it would prove the whole audit process is an exercise in futily that does nothing but produce false confidence.
Just sayin', that's where my two cents hit the table Dzil
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Kazzac Elentria
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Posted - 2009.05.05 20:59:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Dzil Frankly Kazzac, no personal offense intended, but I don't trust you any more or less than 720. Why should I (or any investor) feel inclined to believe that 720 should trust you with access to all of his information?
None taken.
To answer the question though....honestly you shouldn't. Everyone is not to be trusted.
Some people just have slightly less mistrust than others is all. |
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Murixo
M. Corp Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2009.05.05 23:45:00 -
[41]
I have no qualms trusting someone over such a small amount of ISK, after all, who would scam for such a pittance (with the exception being that fellow that scammed 600 mill a few days ago).
Having said that, if 720 did do a 20b offering following this, I would not invest without a full audit by a trusted MD regular. As to me, 20b is NOT a pittance.
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Churches
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Posted - 2009.05.08 09:21:00 -
[42]
Shame I found this too late :(
If anyone forgets to send their ISK, please consider my reservation for 200 mill.
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Bonhomme Carnaval
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Posted - 2009.05.08 11:32:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Bonhomme Carnaval on 08/05/2009 11:34:20 I don't see why it would worry people to know that 720 has another account that's not being audited, if he were to transfer his character. It doesn't necessarily have to do with any scam. Maybe he's in Goonswarm and knew he would get burned with that tag here? Maybe he has a spy character? A Jita-scamming character?
Just saying, it could be a bunch of things not related to this investment at all.
EDIT : My point is that while knowing about all his characters would be beneficial to judging his reliability, him not being willing to have his other character(s) audited is far from a sure proof that this is a scam. |
720
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Posted - 2009.05.18 02:34:00 -
[44]
(I am posting this here because eve mail wonÆt take this many characters, all investors have been sent a link to this posting).
Dear Investors,
You have been defrauded. The entire Bond (1st and 2nd) were frauds. The first to perpetuate this second, larger bond. I contacted several of you to tell you that other bond holders had dropped out or reduced their investment amount. These were all lies. The final toll on investors is 7300M ISK:
ò Churches - 200M ò 3c509 - 300M ò Fleshbot - 400M ò Biruni Khan - 500M ò Motivated Prophet - 2600M ò Murixo - 3300M
No ISK will be returned, and no further contact will be made. For any of you to whom I gave private contact informaotion, none of it is valid (as a side note, none of you tried to verify the contact information or you would have realized it was invalid before you sent the ISK which I was surprised by).
I spent quite some time on this scam so you shouldnÆt take it too badly. I do have some recommendations for future investments. I suggest that you primarily communicate through the forums, I told a few of you that an investor had flaked and simply updated my posting to reflect that (updating postings does not move them to the top of the forum or more colloquially, æbumpÆ them). If you had posted on the forum that you intended to invest because X had flaked, the posting would have gone to the top, and X may have seen the false update and called out the lie. Alternately, when I said X was flaking, you should have contacted that individual and asked if that was the case, which I can presume none of you did because you sent the ISK.
I tried to sound reasonable and well written. Barring that, there was little to give it away, except I refused to submit to an audit. However well reasoned that argument was, in the future you should never believe it and only invest in Bonds/IPO where there is an audit.
The purpose of this message is to let you know the situation so you can make adjustments, not to gloat. I feel the sooner you knew there better. My apologies, and thanks.
720
(Please note that CPSA charge has been upped to one million ISK, you can still feel free to contact me but I make no promises to respond)
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Frenden Dax
Dax Acquisitions
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Posted - 2009.05.18 02:43:00 -
[45]
Shocking! I mean, who could have predicted this would happen!? There were no warning signs or red flags or anything!!1
To those who invested, my sympathies, but you had plenty of people telling you not to.
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Packtu'sa
Nabaal Construction and Industrials Corp
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Posted - 2009.05.18 02:46:00 -
[46]
Interesting.
I must ask: other than to 'educate' the forum about unaudited bonds, why did you scam for so little ISK? I suppose your reputation isn't smashed because your identity is unknown, so you could always repeat it all on another character; but I would think you'd milk it for a bit more than 7bn.
Packtu'sa Founder/CEO, Nabaal Construction and Industrials Corp [NCIC] |
Selina Candor
Chernobyl Trading Corporation
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Posted - 2009.05.18 02:46:00 -
[47]
So thats what? 5 months work for 5bil?
Sounds like a rather crappy return.
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Sir Elliot
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Posted - 2009.05.18 02:47:00 -
[48]
Edited by: Sir Elliot on 18/05/2009 02:54:10
Originally by: Sir Elliot
Audit or scam.
Take your pick.
Clarifying my original post.
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Clair Bear
Perkone
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Posted - 2009.05.18 03:08:00 -
[49]
Nobody saw this coming. I'm shocked, *SHOCKED* I tell you.
Looks like 2 people were the lion's share of your investors. Excellent job. A lazy fool and his money are soon parted.
And in summary, bigger blobs are the answer. Now what was the question? |
YouGotRipped
Ewigkeit
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Posted - 2009.05.18 04:03:00 -
[50]
Originally by: 720
ò Motivated Prophet - 2600M
Black Sun Empire |
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Kazzac Elentria
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Posted - 2009.05.18 04:13:00 -
[51]
Originally by: 720 I refused to submit to an audit.
Just so you know, your well reasoned argument didn't hold much water either, as a few of us pointed out.
So we'll just chalk it up as lesson learned and move on from there. |
James Tundra
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Posted - 2009.05.18 04:22:00 -
[52]
Any investors in 720's Bond, I've got some quiet country-side property in Jita if you're interested, limited availability! No audit.
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Ji Sama
Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries
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Posted - 2009.05.18 05:21:00 -
[53]
Edited by: Ji Sama on 18/05/2009 05:21:25 He have some nice points (and 7b is an ok scam imo). And since i just had a gut feeling on this, i didnt invest either. There where just to many warning signs imo.
Dont ever, take the bond/ipo owners word for a share/bond wasnt bought/sold/taken. Contact the persons he mentions directly, test his contact info and BUMP his forum thread.
Also on page 1 it says that its a 4B bond, but for some reason 7B is paid and reserved, i found that very wierd.
Not to mention the whole: you can audit my account when ive moved some toons?
My pary goes to the players, i am sorry for your lots!
Quote:
The SCC-LOUNGE is now offering Secure Commerce Services @ www.scc-lounge.wordpress.com
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Brock Nelson
Caldari Flux Technologies Inc
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Posted - 2009.05.18 05:21:00 -
[54]
Edited by: Brock Nelson on 18/05/2009 05:22:27 Again, whats with the chump change scams? You just rank among scammers like AC...
Originally by: Ji Sama My pary goes to the players, i am sorry for your lots!
Don't, this IPO was full of red light and none of the investors had taken the time to read through the whole thing...
Blueprint Store |
Ji Sama
Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries
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Posted - 2009.05.18 05:23:00 -
[55]
Edited by: Ji Sama on 18/05/2009 05:25:05 Edited by: Ji Sama on 18/05/2009 05:24:04
Originally by: Brock Nelson Again, whats with the chump change scams? You just rank among scammers like AC...
just wondering when we are actually gonna call a scam a scam, sure AR-C 600 million scam was a joke, but 7B.. on an alt? thats oki imo... could still be alot better and more epic like xabier. but the small time scammers need a place aswell!
Quote:
Originally by: Ji Sama My pary goes to the players, i am sorry for your lots!
Don't, this IPO was full of red light and none of the investors had taken the time to read through the whole thing...
Haha it was a joke :D THEY NEED TO DO WAY INSTAIN MOTHER!
Quote:
The SCC-LOUNGE is now offering Secure Commerce Services @ www.scc-lounge.wordpress.com
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Estel Arador
Minmatar Estel Arador Corp Services
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Posted - 2009.05.18 05:25:00 -
[56]
Shouldn't there be an audit to confirm how much isk was scammed?
FREE! jumpclone service - over 200 locations! |
Ji Sama
Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries
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Posted - 2009.05.18 05:30:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Estel Arador Shouldn't there be an audit to confirm how much isk was scammed?
this ^^ imo.. we have no other way to prove OP is a legit scammer!
Quote:
The SCC-LOUNGE is now offering Secure Commerce Services @ www.scc-lounge.wordpress.com
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Brock Nelson
Caldari Flux Technologies Inc
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Posted - 2009.05.18 05:37:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Ji Sama Edited by: Ji Sama on 18/05/2009 05:25:05 Edited by: Ji Sama on 18/05/2009 05:24:04
Originally by: Brock Nelson Again, whats with the chump change scams? You just rank among scammers like AC...
just wondering when we are actually gonna call a scam a scam, sure AR-C 600 million scam was a joke, but 7B.. on an alt? thats oki imo... could still be alot better and more epic like xabier. but the small time scammers need a place aswell!
Ahh...I missed that part about 7b...
Blueprint Store |
Murixo
M. Corp Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2009.05.18 09:04:00 -
[59]
Woot my first scam easy come easy go... but still, only 7b?
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Ricdics
Tleilex Developments
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Posted - 2009.05.18 09:11:00 -
[60]
This should never have gotten investment by anyone. Those scammed should be ashamed of themselves. We have precautions in place for a reason and in almost every case when bypassed they result in scam. I doubt you people will ever learn tbh. Or even if you do, someone will come tomorrow to get scammed.
The more scams you people enable, the more attempts that will be made to scam and the more honest individuals that will be palmed off due to **** regulations and standards. |
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