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Bronson Hughes
ADVANCED Combat and Engineering
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Posted - 2009.05.06 13:58:00 -
[1]
"One man's radar dish is another man's reflector" - Radar engineering proverb
I've heard a lot of people complain that you can't probe/scan out cloaked ships. In all honesty, I think this is fine because a cloaked ship can't do anything other than sit there acting like a hole in space (unless it's got a CovOps cloak, and then it can act like a warp-mobile hole in space).
But there is one thing that bothers me about the current state of cloaking: in order to detect incoming energy, you have to absorb some of it and any time you absorb energy from free space some of that energy gets reflected back. If you want to remain reasonably well cloaked (i.e. not totally invisible, but still stealthy enough to not show up on scans), you can't absorb/reflect any significant amount of energy from your environment so you shouldn't be able to see much at all.
In other words, the Invisible Man should always be blind.
So this presents a conundrum: how can a cloaked ship use the long range directional scanner to see anything while still being invisible itself? For ships on-grid and on your overview, you could argue that they're so close that the amount of energy that you need to absorb to 'see' that ship is small enough to enable the cloaked ship to still be effectively invisible. And with probes, a cloaked ship is relying on very focused point-to-point uplinks with specific objects, not wide area transmission/detection, so you could still communicate with probes in order to scan in the system. But the directional scanner, which is omni-directional with long range and can detect a wide array of objects? It just doesn't fit.
Mind you, this is purely from a real world physics point of view which we should all know has nothing to do with balanced gameplay. But I think we can rectify the all-seeing Invisible Man with game mechanics.
Here are some suggested changes, each to be done individually, not in conjunction with each other. These changes assume that nothing else changes in terms of on-grid visibility and the use of scan probes:
1. Cloaked ships can no longer use the directional scanner. If they want to use it, they would have to decloak.
2. Cloaked ships can still use the directional scanner, but only at reduced ranges and/or scan angles.
3. Cloaked ships can have unlimted use of the directional scanner as they do now, but while using the directional scanner (and only while using the directional scanner), they would be visible to other people scanning (with probes or the directional scanner) in the area. They would still remain invisible on the overview.
#1 would obviously be the easiest to implement, #3 would be the hardest, #2 somewhere in the middle. All of them impart some degree of hardship upon cloaked ships, but #3 is the only one that includes any form of counter-detection. But none of them in any way impact cloaked ships not doing anything with their directional scanners.
Thoughts?
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"I am hard pressed on my right; my centre is giving way; situation excellent; I am attacking." - Ferdinand Foch at the Battle of the Marne |
Santiago Fahahrri
Galactic Geographic
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Posted - 2009.05.06 14:26:00 -
[2]
If it's not broke, don't fix it.
~ Santiago Fahahrri
Galactic Geographic |
Dasubervixen
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Posted - 2009.05.06 14:51:00 -
[3]
Very nice post Bronson. But I have to agree with Santiago.
 Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri
If it's not broke, don't fix it.
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Miilla
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Posted - 2009.05.06 14:51:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri
If it's not broke, don't fix it.
Unfortunately CCP have a track record of breaking things that don't need fixing. Like the scan filtering, like the scan bubble textures, like the scan bubble transparency etc etc.
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Akura kawanaka
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Posted - 2009.05.06 15:52:00 -
[5]
I have to disagree - unless the directional scanner is an active type scanner then it is entirely possible using real-world-type physics to be invisible but be able to see.
Consider active vs passive sonar. A submarine sitting dead in the water is invisible to other submarines and yet can detect another one passing by. (This analogy falls down of course if the other submarine is banging away with active sonar and detects the ship sitting still).
Although I think the current system is fine exactly the way it is, perhaps if covert cloaked ships were detectable on scan only when they are warping - the theory being that they are disturbing space-time enough to be detectable, but not visually (e.g. not on the overview).
Thoughts on that?
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Lear Hepburn
Caldari
Ascendant Strategies Inc.
The Transcendent
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Posted - 2009.05.06 16:04:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Akura kawanaka
I have to disagree - unless the directional scanner is an active type scanner then it is entirely possible using real-world-type physics to be invisible but be able to see.
Consider active vs passive sonar. A submarine sitting dead in the water is invisible to other submarines and yet can detect another one passing by. (This analogy falls down of course if the other submarine is banging away with active sonar and detects the ship sitting still).
Although I think the current system is fine exactly the way it is, perhaps if covert cloaked ships were detectable on scan only when they are warping - the theory being that they are disturbing space-time enough to be detectable, but not visually (e.g. not on the overview).
Thoughts on that?
Real world physics in Eve? 
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Akura kawanaka
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Posted - 2009.05.06 16:29:00 -
[7]
was just referring to the OP:
Originally by: Bronson Hughes
Mind you, this is purely from a real world physics point of view which we should all know has nothing to do with balanced gameplay. But...
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Bronson Hughes
ADVANCED Combat and Engineering
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Posted - 2009.05.06 19:49:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Akura kawanaka
I have to disagree - unless the directional scanner is an active type scanner then it is entirely possible using real-world-type physics to be invisible but be able to see.
Consider active vs passive sonar. A submarine sitting dead in the water is invisible to other submarines and yet can detect another one passing by. (This analogy falls down of course if the other submarine is banging away with active sonar and detects the ship sitting still).
Although I think the current system is fine exactly the way it is, perhaps if covert cloaked ships were detectable on scan only when they are warping - the theory being that they are disturbing space-time enough to be detectable, but not visually (e.g. not on the overview).
Thoughts on that?
A submarine sitting idle in the water is still detectable with active sensors, it still reflects energy so you can hear it if you happen to know where it is. A 'cloaked' sub on the other hand would not reflect sound at all so even active sonar wouldn't detect it.
Also, I'm not personally of the opinion that cloaking is broken or overpowered in its current state. I've just seen a goodly number of people complaining about it and was offering a compromise that would help calm them down without nerfing cloaking to death like they want. I'd love to leave it as is, but I'd love for people to stop complaining more so i offered this up.
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"I am hard pressed on my right; my centre is giving way; situation excellent; I am attacking." - Ferdinand Foch at the Battle of the Marne |
AmechWorrior
Specter Enterprises
The Church.
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Posted - 2009.05.06 19:53:00 -
[9]
Not hating on cloakers cause i fly a falcon and all, but if we were to think of this as real world physics how can the cloaking device be effective at all because while the cloaking device may cloak your ship it does not cloak all the camera drones you have floating around your ship. So ok the camera drones are small so they dont give off a significant sig, well there are alot of them supposidly around your ship all several km off of you. So how can a ship be invisible when cloaked if we should be able to scan down this cloud of camera drones, also they would not be cloaked on grid because if we are in advance space ships our computers could triangulate the position of your ship by looking at where all of the drones are looking at. Well the sig is to small to register then the computer can use visuals to acquire the cloaked ships position. This is done because in the cam drone story it said they all always looked at your ship. Also the cam drones can not be remotely cloaked because they are so small with limited power, electronic capability, and they are floating several km away form you. Now I am not sugesting that cloaking devices or the scanning mechanics be changed because of this its just it is very hard to apply real world physics to a game :). But I do agree with Bronson in that a cloaked ship should be able to be seen on scanner probs (only) in the brief 1.5-2 sec that it takes to do a directional scan. But this could not be coralated to real world physics because the directional scanner is a passive device.
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Lear Hepburn
Caldari
Ascendant Strategies Inc.
The Transcendent
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Posted - 2009.05.06 19:57:00 -
[10]
Originally by: AmechWorrior
but if we were to think of this as real world physics
First mistake. 
Quote:
while the cloaking device may cloak your ship it does not cloak all the camera drones you have floating around your ship.
Says who? I'm not up on the fiction/backstory, but who says this is true?
Quote:
a cloaked ship should be able to be seen on scanner probs
Why? What medium (gravi/magneto/LADAR/Radar) is the scanner using to find your ship and why can your ship not be cloaked in that medium?
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Nuramori
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Posted - 2009.05.06 20:03:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Nuramori on 06/05/2009 20:06:01
Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri
If it's not broke, don't fix it.
I agree, but I'm not so much saying it's broken, but introduce a mechanic that can also make it interesting.
For instance. look at cloaking in general. It's mainly a player corp module that serves primarily those that head to or live in low/null sec space. Carebears don't really need or use cloakers, so the fact someone has a cloak means they are playing against others, aka in a team or corp. So why even do this?
Well first, you can have a set of stealth bombers sit in system. Sure there's ways to motivate them to decloak, but if they want they can just sit there with no real fear or worry. not so much fun sitting around for one of the parties to goof up or make a move that isn't a forced move.
So now let's say we have a cloak probing module that requires a battleship to operate, and minimum offour separate ships to work in concert to have a chance to probe out the cloaked ship (this also could be a titan or mothership, don't forget). This means that the cloaker now has four more juicy squishy targets to possibly go after, and if one pops leaving three, then the cloaker is again safe from being disovered. The cloaker may call his corp mates to le them know four juicy and squishy batleships are in system and can escalate it to more pew pew opportunities. Make the module have a high degree of grid usage so the BS would be gun limited, therefor maybe even requiring more target opportunities if the corp/alliance was that determined to find the cloaked pilot.
I am not looking to introduce this idea as a whine about an unfair thing, far from it, as I fly cov ops and stealth bombers. I'm looking to alow for an expanded opportunity that requries TEAM effort and not the efforts of one skilled pilot like probing does for the game.
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AmechWorrior
Specter Enterprises
The Church.
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Posted - 2009.05.06 20:08:00 -
[12]
Edited by: AmechWorrior on 06/05/2009 20:13:06
Edited by: AmechWorrior on 06/05/2009 20:08:07
Originally by: Lear Hepburn
Originally by: AmechWorrior
but if we were to think of this as real world physics
First mistake.
Quote:
while the cloaking device may cloak your ship it does not cloak all the camera drones you have floating around your ship.
Says who? I'm not up on the fiction/backstory, but who says this is true?
Quote:
a cloaked ship should be able to be seen on scanner probs
Why? What medium (gravi/magneto/LADAR/Radar) is the scanner using to find your ship and why can your ship not be cloaked in that medium?
First I was against refering to a game in real world physics :)
Secondly i did say this explaining why the cam drones could not be remotely cloaked *edit* o there is a cam drone chronicle that is interesting, there are also some other chronicle that refer to them as in the ones about the backstory of space flight, and the one about learning about pods for the first time.
Quote:
Also the cam drones can not be remotely cloaked because they are so small with limited power, electronic capability, and they are floating several km away form you.
third,
it has nothing to do with real world physics it was a sugestion about changeing mechanics, it is my opinion that a cloaked ship should be able to be seen to "PROBES" in the 1.5-2 seconds the cloaked ship is scanning. Now this would not enable a probeing ship to find the cloaked ship but merely know it is there and may be if the cloaked ship sat in one place for a long time while scanning often the probeing ship will beable to find it.
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AmechWorrior
Specter Enterprises
The Church.
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Posted - 2009.05.06 20:09:00 -
[13]
i agree it is not broken, but maybe adding this new feature would make the game a little more interesting
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Lear Hepburn
Caldari
Ascendant Strategies Inc.
The Transcendent
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Posted - 2009.05.06 20:13:00 -
[14]
Originally by: AmechWorrior
First I was against refering to a game in real world physics :)
Yeah, I know. It just amuses me when people try to apply RW physics to a spaceship game which has maximum speeds 
Quote:
Secondly i did say this explaining why the cam drones could not be remotely cloaked
Quote:
Also the cam drones can not be remotely cloaked because they are so small with limited power, electronic capability, and they are floating several km away form you.
I don't see why this is a limitation. They have enough power to warp with you so can't that power be diverted to cloak them when needed? And maybe they are cloaked all the time, since we never actually see them 
Quote:
third,
it has nothing to do with real world physics it was a sugestion about changeing mechanics, it is my opinion that a cloaked ship should be able to be seen to "PROBES" in the 1.5-2 seconds the cloaked ship is scanning. Now this would not enable a probeing ship to find the cloaked ship but merely know it is there and may be if the cloaked ship sat in one place for a long time while scanning often the probeing ship will beable to find it.
If a cloaked ship is scanning the scan is passive and therefore undetectable. If the cloaked ship is probing then maybe the probes are detectable but what use would that be to anyone trying to hunt him down?
Basically, I see no reason why cloaked ships should be discoverable - that's the point of cloaking, after all.
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AmechWorrior
Specter Enterprises
The Church.
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Posted - 2009.05.06 20:19:00 -
[15]
Edited by: AmechWorrior on 06/05/2009 20:22:53
Edited by: AmechWorrior on 06/05/2009 20:20:55
Originally by: Lear Hepburn
Originally by: AmechWorrior
First I was against refering to a game in real world physics :)
Yeah, I know. It just amuses me when people try to apply RW physics to a spaceship game which has maximum speeds
Quote:
Secondly i did say this explaining why the cam drones could not be remotely cloaked
Quote:
Also the cam drones can not be remotely cloaked because they are so small with limited power, electronic capability, and they are floating several km away form you.
I don't see why this is a limitation. They have enough power to warp with you so can't that power be diverted to cloak them when needed? And maybe they are cloaked all the time, since we never actually see them
Quote:
third,
it has nothing to do with real world physics it was a sugestion about changeing mechanics, it is my opinion that a cloaked ship should be able to be seen to "PROBES" in the 1.5-2 seconds the cloaked ship is scanning. Now this would not enable a probeing ship to find the cloaked ship but merely know it is there and may be if the cloaked ship sat in one place for a long time while scanning often the probeing ship will beable to find it.
If a cloaked ship is scanning the scan is passive and therefore undetectable. If the cloaked ship is probing then maybe the probes are detectable but what use would that be to anyone trying to hunt him down?
Basically, I see no reason why cloaked ships should be discoverable - that's the point of cloaking, after all.
The story on the warp tunnel is that you create a bubble around your ship that will make you have negative friction or something, point is the drones close enough to you will be inside ur warp bubble so they go with u the ones out side the bubble get left behind. in the cam story they say the drones are out side ur shields flying around you so they get blown up ALL the time so the only way the pod pilots get around this is by carrying a **** load of them and when they are flying they just pore that **** load out continusly from every orphus ^^
and limited speed in a space game cracks me up too :) *edit* and turning in general ^^
A cloaked ship could never be found
A hunting cloaked ship could *edit* but it would be VERY hard seeing as you could only see it when it scans and that would have to happen in the same scan cycle as a probe
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