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Question about Carriers

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Hull Blaster Gallente Dark Nexxus	Posted - 2009.05.10 17:30:00 - [1] In real life, carriers are a platform for force projection. The ability to send off aircraft with powerful weaponry that can attack other ships with devastating results if unopposed. My question is this, why are carriers simply enlarged logistic vessels in EVE? It was proven in WWII that a carrier's complement of bombers could easily wipe out the most powerful Battleships as long as the Carrier itself remained out of reach. In EVE, from what I've read, Carriers are pretty useless when it comes to an actual platform for attacking other large warships and capital ships. Why is this so? How did the most powerful surface navel platform of modern times become such a bystander. Instead of being the flag ship of any task force, its now pushed aside by what would be considered obsolete Dreadnoughts (if you think of WW1 dreads, which like their smaller BS brothers were very vulnerable to air attack). I'm not a carrier pilot, so I don't know from first hand what its like, I may be wrong in my assumptions... if any of you could answer this would be good :).
DaDutchDude Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2009.05.10 19:35:00 - [2] New Eden space combat isn't 'earth' naval warfare and the ship class names derived from naval combat might therefor not match up to your expectations from that class. My advice: stop comparing. Any further discussion would only become a highly theoretical exercise of how things should have been without any relevance to current or future game play.
tangoallycorp	Posted - 2009.05.10 19:42:00 - [3] Or you could say carriers deploy powerful weaponry (fighters) that can wipe out battleships
Kelly Williams	Posted - 2009.05.10 20:07:00 - [4] Carriers have no problem killing battleships. the fighters are very strong, but have tracking issues on things smaller then a BS.
TraininVain	Posted - 2009.05.10 20:15:00 - [5] Horizon.
Trebor Notlimah Lone Star EVE Group Veni Vidi Vici	Posted - 2009.05.11 18:44:00 - [6] Originally by: Hull Blaster My question is this, why are carriers simply enlarged logistic vessels in EVE? It was proven in WWII that a carrier's complement of bombers could easily wipe out the most powerful Battleships as long as the Carrier itself remained out of reach. In WWII, people couldn't warp away if they are more than 24k from you.
Muad' Dib Gallente Beyond Divinity Inc	Posted - 2009.05.11 20:00:00 - [7] Originally by: Hull Blaster In real life, carriers are a platform for force projection. The ability to send off aircraft with powerful weaponry that can attack other ships with devastating results if unopposed. My question is this, why are carriers simply enlarged logistic vessels in EVE? It was proven in WWII that a carrier's complement of bombers could easily wipe out the most powerful Battleships as long as the Carrier itself remained out of reach. In EVE, from what I've read, Carriers are pretty useless when it comes to an actual platform for attacking other large warships and capital ships. Why is this so? How did the most powerful surface navel platform of modern times become such a bystander. Instead of being the flag ship of any task force, its now pushed aside by what would be considered obsolete Dreadnoughts (if you think of WW1 dreads, which like their smaller BS brothers were very vulnerable to air attack). I'm not a carrier pilot, so I don't know from first hand what its like, I may be wrong in my assumptions... if any of you could answer this would be good :). You question the role of a ship class that you know nothing about in an internet spaceships game while comparing that same class solely because of the name with some WW2 ship ? --- I smack just for myself. * Your signature file is to large. Please note: we do not allow signature files larger than 24000 bytes - Fallout
Avoida	Posted - 2009.05.11 20:07:00 - [8] The OP does have a point...somewhat in that the mental imagery drawn from the word "carrier" differs from what EVE presents us. What I first heard of carriers being introduced, I imagined a massive ship where I and some of my corpmates could dock their ships, the carrier would jump to a system and we could undock and go fight. To get back to our base, we'd redock our ships and the carrier would jumps us all back home. What was introduced, however, is nothing akin to that. It's just a bigger version of a bunch of other ships out there.
Lonzo Kincaid Black Nova Corp KenZoku	Posted - 2009.05.12 09:29:00 - [9] Edited by: Lonzo Kincaid on 12/05/2009 09:33:15 It carrys stuff, some fighters, some fuel/ships/pos gear. Quote: carrier /ˈkµriər/[kar-ee-er] ûnoun 1. a person or thing that carries. 7. aircraft carrier. in eve a carrier is a logistics ship for the transportation of goods. But not a jump freighter; it has a smaller cargo, aswell as eve "logstics" roll of remote repairing, and also some combat abilities (Fighters/drones, Heavy tank, and can fit a nasty rack of energy neuts/smart bombs) as well as any new abilities CCP might give them with the advent of planetary interaction. EDIT - It also has the ability to warp faster than the speed of light accross massive star systems, aswell as jump quite a few (13 if i remember correctly, but probably not) light years in a split second with the aid of a cynosoral beacon. Can also survive multiple doomsday devices (probably well above 10). I'd like to see any modern day carrier do or survive any of those in their real life equvilants. Note: A bane torpedo that does 450damage by default, (i think) used to be described as having a nuclear warhead, and even a ricketty old typhoon can survive alot of those. ---------------------- Quote: The rule of thumb is you have to outnumber them 2:1 before you even think about engaging them
Hull Blaster Gallente Dark Nexxus	Posted - 2009.05.12 19:11:00 - [10] Edited by: Hull Blaster on 12/05/2009 19:14:52 Edited by: Hull Blaster on 12/05/2009 19:13:04 Obviously you have the bonus of warp/FTL in EVE. I wasn't simply comparing a WWII carrier like say the Yorktown/Ark Royal but commenting on the carrier as a class of ship. When I saw carriers in EVE I thought AWESOME... but looking at them they're really far from carriers in the true sense of the word. I know they carry fighters, but that's not really a great deal different from say drones... in the sense of a carrier fielding ships you could say that a Dominix is a carrier, because it can field so many drones. Would be interesting if you could operate different types of small ship from a Carrier, like for anti-drone/small ship (frigates/destroyers) you could have the fighters... but for much larger ships field a squadron of bombers, like a real carrier would. You don't see a Nimitz class carrier go to see with just F-18's, its equipped with E-2C's and Vikings amongst others. Think it would make carrier deployment a bit more interesting if you had to think about what "squadrons" to field in an attack. The fighters would have a high tacking speed, but relatively average dps... and you could have the bombers much slower, but fire damaging cruise missiles/torpedoes with low tracking speeds... but highly dangerous for larger warships. Having this option would make things a bit more interesting for the pilot, whilst giving the carrier much greater flexibility and usefulness to a fleet. From what I've read, carriers at the moment are simply grand logistic ships... granted its a very handy thing to have in a blob skirmish, but it would be nice to have the carrier also be able to function effectively as an all out offensive platform, as they are in RL. Just my opinion...
Bloody Rabbit	Posted - 2009.05.12 20:14:00 - [11] Originally by: Hull Blaster I know they carry fighters, but that's not really a great deal different from say drones... in the sense of a carrier fielding ships you could say that a Dominix is a carrier, because it can field so many drones. Would be interesting if you could operate different types of small ship from a Carrier, like for anti-drone/small ship (frigates/destroyers) you could have the fighters...] Carriers are the only class of ships that can field fighters (which are like small frigs) plus they have super powers with the use of repping. When needed you pull the fighters or drones in and go into tri mode, which makes you so much harder to kill and your fleet harder to kill; unless they just suck your cap dry. The reason you see so many cry about the carrier is because they don't want to use the fighters as the fighters are 16 million per and pop like little frigs. Carriers and dreads are super powerful when used in their specific roles. PS ask the sailors on board the carriers in WW2 how they did against very small fighter planes without the support of fighters in the sky and battleships filling the air with lead.
Hull Blaster Gallente Dark Nexxus	Posted - 2009.05.12 20:26:00 - [12] Do you think the devs will ever give carriers more options when it comes to "fighters"... like bombers or EWAR to spice things up a bit? About the cost for fighters... if you buy a ship that costs about 2bil to get you would think 16mil would be pennies for that person no? I wouldn't complain... its a cap ship they're not supposed to be cheap :(.
Locutious Minmatar Rising Phoenix Enterprises	Posted - 2009.05.12 20:55:00 - [13] If you want to make the real world comparison (even though it's not really valid) Carriers are relatively weak by themselves. Yes they can "project" power but it's also neccesary for them to have a fleet of logistic and support vessels to truely make them effective. In EvE I would imagine that is also true. They are not intended to be solo juggernauts, but with the right mix of support vessels (EWAR/ECM/DD/Tacklers/etc..) I'm sure that adept pilots and FC's can utilize them quite well within their respective role. Just my 2 isk We are the Borg. Lower your shields and surrender your ships. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Resistance is futile
Jahah Smith Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Vertigo Coalition	Posted - 2009.05.12 22:06:00 - [14] First to use the WW2 analogy Even in WW2 and to the present day a carrier does not operate alone, it operates in a battle group with support ships that provide most of the defense, so while a carrier is a power projection vehicle it is vulnerable. Now for Eve: Carriers (tier 1 Archon, Chimmy, Nid, Thanny) can launch up to 15 fighters (most people with their skills can only launch 9 though, and more than 10 requires special modules on the high ends) or other types of drones depending on the situation, they are also masters of the "spider tank" which means if you get around 6-10 good carrier pilots who know what they are doing, well good luck taking them out with anything less than a full Deathstar killing Dread fleet. Fighters are DEADLY against battleships and can even follow a pilot into warp and wait for him to come out (not a smart move with some of the problems of fighters) So yes carriers can still be considered a platform for force projection in Eve, used correctly they can concievably change the course of a battle, repairing themselves and any support that happen to need it. Oh and yes the jump range of a carrier is 13 LightYears.
Rexthor Hammerfists Rage of Inferno Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2009.05.12 22:44:00 - [15] www.eve-search.com -
Hull Blaster Gallente Dark Nexxus	Posted - 2009.05.13 06:18:00 - [16] That is kind of my point. Like you said, carriers require a fleet to aid in the defense and support of the carrier... not the carrier being there to support the rest of the fleet (remote rep etc). If I ever flew a carrier, I'd definitely not take it out on my own... as its just suicide. I was just thinking that perhaps the carrier needed a bit more in offensive capabilities when it comes to tackling other capital ships within a fleet?
Robert0288 Caldari g guild Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2009.05.13 07:17:00 - [17] Quote: needed a bit more in offensive capabilities when it comes to tackling other capital ships within a fleet? Then fit a t2 warp disruptor and you've just turned your carrier into a (lol) tackler. Although there are ships much better suited to this role. Instead of thinking power projection, its more like force multiplier. With each additional carrier involved the total survivability of all the carriers goes up by more. As for offensive powers against other caps, I think it might be worth while introducing a 'bomber' drone for carriers, but this isn't the right forum for that discussion
Plan Neun Caldari KRAFTWERK	Posted - 2009.05.13 08:11:00 - [18] Originally by: Trebor Notlimah Originally by: Hull Blaster My question is this, why are carriers simply enlarged logistic vessels in EVE? It was proven in WWII that a carrier's complement of bombers could easily wipe out the most powerful Battleships as long as the Carrier itself remained out of reach. In WWII, people couldn't warp away if they are more than 24k from you. And it was illegal with more than 40 friends then you got a red card and a huge fine!
Mephesto Nizal	Posted - 2009.05.13 12:27:00 - [19] Originally by: Avoida The OP does have a point...somewhat in that the mental imagery drawn from the word "carrier" differs from what EVE presents us. What I first heard of carriers being introduced, I imagined a massive ship where I and some of my corpmates could dock their ships, the carrier would jump to a system and we could undock and go fight. To get back to our base, we'd redock our ships and the carrier would jumps us all back home. What was introduced, however, is nothing akin to that. It's just a bigger version of a bunch of other ships out there. One of the greatest disappointments in EVE ...the way Carriers and Motherships work :(

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