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Sillas Cov
Caldari 22nd Black Rise Defensive Unit
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Posted - 2009.05.11 15:53:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Sillas Cov on 11/05/2009 15:54:56 CPP
In my 35 years of gaming, Eve and the PEOPLE and PVP Ive encountered within Factional war, has been the mostly intensely rewarding and creative gaming moments of my life.
Please for the love of the amazing passion well call EVE:
DO NOT LEFT THE GAME MECHANICS OF FAC WAR STALL WITHIN YOUR FUTURE DEVELOPMENT PLANS.
Facts:
Pvp pilots are abandoning Fac war at the moment, low sec is emptying.
Pvp Pilots are drawn to invest time, isk and resources when and where other quality Pvp Pilots are active.
Eve pilots need Isk, and Tangible, rewards to have fun and be active within a Pvp setting.
Eve pilots are naturally drawn to create and use, intense, rich strategic/tactical game play challenges.
Small gang T1 ship combat is intensely challenging, rewarding and accessible to ALL players seeking Pvp.
Eve pilots do NOT like to have their time wasted nor intelligence insulted, with silly game mechanics and half finished game designs.
The Reality:
Fac war in its current form opens up huge cool possibilities, but ultimately fails to sustain the pilot interest because the game design does not address the above points.
The context of a military campaign is so rich with strategic and tactical game play design elements.....
But wars are not run on Sand.... So please CPP seriously revisit the ISK rewards system for plexing and taking systems.
If you but grant isk rewards equal to lvl 3 missions for dropping plexes, they would be humming with activey...
Plex Isk --> Pilots ---> Pvp ---> Ongoing Fun
Mission generated Isk ---> Limited amounts of Blob Pvp or unrewarded button spinning in hopes of some Pvp ---> Dinimishing pilot numbers --- No Pvp ---> 0.0 ??
Why not, just fix this?
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EVIL SYNNs
Wrath of Fenris
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Posted - 2009.05.11 16:05:00 -
[2]
Edited by: EVIL SYNNs on 11/05/2009 16:06:27 Sorry Silas, what do pirates get from game mechanics? And yet they do fine, they don't whine all the time about it.
Yes FW has failures, but its a free war dec! What more you wanting. You can enter high sec and mission (pirates can't do that).
Sorry FW is not dead, yes its quiet although could do with the 60 man blobs coming out of Nourv.
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Parmenides Elea
Gallente Wrath of Fenris
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Posted - 2009.05.11 16:12:00 -
[3]
The blobs don't help either. Currently caldari have more members than gallente and what we are seeing are uber blobs being formed on bother sides that roll up and down the pipe doing little other than boring those involved half to death. Once a blob gets over 40 you are not going to get a fight. Simple as.
As for rewards, we've been through this on a couple of threads already. Some people want isk for doing plexes others want relevancy. Personaly relevance holds more sway over isk rewards BUT I can also see it from the persepctive of getting newbs used to pvp for 0.0 (even though fw pvp is nothing like the boredom that is 0.0 pvp) so a reward system is needed for those younger under funded players. HOWEVER as everyone says when you pvp for the first time, only fly what you can afford to loose.
As evil says summer is with us now and with it looking like a hot and dry one I can see numbers dropping all over eve not just within FW, those that remain will be the hardcore and all the hardcore want to do is fight
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Val Erian
Gallente Azure Horizon Federate Militia
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Posted - 2009.05.11 16:29:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Val Erian on 11/05/2009 16:31:05 ZzzzZzz ...
Wolfy must be to busy jumping on these threads to actualy spend time playing. Hi guys :)
Silas, my opinion is that CCP will do nothing for FW. And if they actualy do they will screw it up.
They will look at numbers enrolled, that systems are 'flipping' etc and say why make changes? They wont even fix or acknowledge the current bugs.
Anyway, the Serious Business Plexers will continue to get the plexs right after Downtime and make flapping motions about how great they are to conquest whole systems (even though CCP now reports it as 'Space Superiority for RP purposes') and there will continue to be less and less interest in countering it.
Personaly, since I am not coming online right after DT anymore but more towards 1:00> onwareds Eve time I find hardly any plexs and/or squids in the heavily contested systems so there is nothing much to be done about it anymore.
Hopefully CCp Mitnal will just lock this thread before it degenerates to the usual FW crap posters.
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X Gallentius
MicroFunks
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Posted - 2009.05.11 16:30:00 -
[5]
I just keep thinking that plexes ought to be replaced by FW missions instead (funded at low-sec missioning levels).
Soul-sucking mission running would replace soul sucking button orbiting. But no time limit. No endlessly spinning buttons. You're done when you're done.
Generate your isk; get into really cool battles in restricted size plexes (which is where the real fun is).
L1 missions = L1 plexes, L2 missions = L2 plexes, etc... Choose your battle site.
Keeps pies and nuets from generating income.
Don't quite yet know how occupancy mechanics would work (how would you target a constellation for example?)
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Sun Clausewitz
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Posted - 2009.05.11 16:36:00 -
[6]
Boost FW
Pick Three: Caldari/PVP/Solo/Success |
Mitch Taylor
Dark-Rising
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Posted - 2009.05.11 17:09:00 -
[7]
your expecting the game to reward you, when you have all the power you need to use FW to reward yourself.
in short: your doing it wrong.
I hope you work it out.
The Dark is Rising... Fight my Brute! |
TraininVain
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Posted - 2009.05.11 17:10:00 -
[8]
Edited by: TraininVain on 11/05/2009 17:16:11 Plexes are balls. Terrible, terrible content.
For the love of god don't boost them. Just kill them.
I wouldn't be against FW missions where the objective is to kill the other side.
Don't make FW any more PvE-ey though.
IMO what's really needed is some mechanism whereby you actually have to fight to flip / hold objectives.
Being able to "do FW" without any enemies in the system is an utterly laughable concept.
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Louis DelaBlanche
The Anonna Mouse Commune
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Posted - 2009.05.11 19:44:00 -
[9]
(offensive) plexing does pay, you just have to kill all the NPC s & take their tags. They dont pay if ur an uber efficiency plexer who does it in a nanoed inty/ cloaked ship; but thats the price u pay for it.
As CCP said when they introduced FW, its meant simply as an areana for newbs to get a taste of PvP before moving on to the 0.0 endgame. Either you find u like PvP & so carry on shooting, or you dont & go back to highsec lvl4 missions. Plexing is not supposed to be an alternative to missions, merely a mechanic to promote PvP. It fails in many ways in that regard; but the point still stands that plexing is not & never was meant as an end in itself, merely a means to encouraging conflict & competition between the factions.
_________________ Space is reserved _________________ |
Muad' Dib
Gallente Beyond Divinity Inc
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Posted - 2009.05.11 19:53:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Muad'' Dib on 11/05/2009 19:53:59
Originally by: Sillas Cov Edited by: Sillas Cov on 11/05/2009 15:54:56 CPP
In my 35 years of gaming, Eve and the PEOPLE and PVP Ive encountered within Factional war, has been the mostly intensely rewarding and creative gaming moments of my life.
Please for the love of the amazing passion well call EVE:
DO NOT LEFT THE GAME MECHANICS OF FAC WAR STALL WITHIN YOUR FUTURE DEVELOPMENT PLANS.
Facts:
Pvp pilots are abandoning Fac war at the moment, low sec is emptying.
Pvp Pilots are drawn to invest time, isk and resources when and where other quality Pvp Pilots are active.
Eve pilots need Isk, and Tangible, rewards to have fun and be active within a Pvp setting.
Eve pilots are naturally drawn to create and use, intense, rich strategic/tactical game play challenges.
Small gang T1 ship combat is intensely challenging, rewarding and accessible to ALL players seeking Pvp.
Eve pilots do NOT like to have their time wasted nor intelligence insulted, with silly game mechanics and half finished game designs.
The Reality:
Fac war in its current form opens up huge cool possibilities, but ultimately fails to sustain the pilot interest because the game design does not address the above points.
The context of a military campaign is so rich with strategic and tactical game play design elements.....
But wars are not run on Sand.... So please CPP seriously revisit the ISK rewards system for plexing and taking systems.
If you but grant isk rewards equal to lvl 3 missions for dropping plexes, they would be humming with activey...
Plex Isk --> Pilots ---> Pvp ---> Ongoing Fun
Mission generated Isk ---> Limited amounts of Blob Pvp or unrewarded button spinning in hopes of some Pvp ---> Dinimishing pilot numbers --- No Pvp ---> 0.0 ??
Why not, just fix this?
Sorry m8, but my 35.1 yrs of gaming and my experience in FW, have showed me that there is nothing wrong with FW.
Originally by: Mitch Taylor your expecting the game to reward you, when you have all the power you need to use FW to reward yourself.
in short: your doing it wrong.
I hope you work it out.
Don't diss on the dude, dude ... the dude has 35yrs of experience in the games industry. --- I smack just for myself.
* Your signature file is to large. Please note: we do not allow signature files larger than 24000 bytes - Fallout |
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Val Erian
Gallente Azure Horizon Federate Militia
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Posted - 2009.05.11 19:53:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Val Erian on 11/05/2009 19:55:27
Quote: IMO what's really needed is some mechanism whereby you actually have to fight to flip / hold objectives
.
How exactly would that work? :)
If one side doesnt show up you can deny victory to the side that does?
Quote: As CCP said when they introduced FW, its meant simply as an areana for newbs to get a taste of PvP before moving on to the 0.0 endgame. Either you find u like PvP & so carry on shooting, or you dont & go back to highsec lvl4 missions. Plexing is not supposed to be an alternative to missions, merely a mechanic to promote PvP. It fails in many ways in that regard; but the point still stands that plexing is not & never was meant as an end in itself, merely a means to encouraging conflict & competition between the factions.
This.
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Muad' Dib
Gallente Beyond Divinity Inc
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Posted - 2009.05.11 19:57:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Val Erian Edited by: Val Erian on 11/05/2009 19:55:27
Quote: IMO what's really needed is some mechanism whereby you actually have to fight to flip / hold objectives
.
How exactly would that work? :)
If one side doesnt show up you can deny victory to the side that does?
Quote: As CCP said when they introduced FW, its meant simply as an areana for newbs to get a taste of PvP before moving on to the 0.0 endgame. Either you find u like PvP & so carry on shooting, or you dont & go back to highsec lvl4 missions. Plexing is not supposed to be an alternative to missions, merely a mechanic to promote PvP. It fails in many ways in that regard; but the point still stands that plexing is not & never was meant as an end in itself, merely a means to encouraging conflict & competition between the factions.
This.
Staying cloaked in a plex to get sov in the system that doesn't mean **** surely does prepare one for 0.0 . --- I smack just for myself.
* Your signature file is to large. Please note: we do not allow signature files larger than 24000 bytes - Fallout |
TraininVain
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Posted - 2009.05.11 20:06:00 -
[13]
Edited by: TraininVain on 11/05/2009 20:09:00
Quote: How exactly would that work? :)
If one side doesnt show up you can deny victory to the side that does?
I think it would be fine to do so, yeah.
Or you could scale the VPs gained sharply according to what scale fight there was.
Or you could spawn objectives dynamically.
I don't know exactly. There's plenty of examples in FPS games and the like they could look to.
"Push" objectives where you can't capture the middle without taking the end-objectives in sequence are a great way to give a battle a focal point.
I do know that spawning PvE content which people can run and "win" the "war" on their own smells of sprouts.
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crockett EXE
Minmatar Mutineers
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Posted - 2009.05.11 21:18:00 -
[14]
Edited by: crockett EXE on 11/05/2009 21:20:50
I have to admit, that as a newer player in FW there is no way I could keep it up if I didn't have a mining alt. TBH, even with a miner alt I can't afford to really fly anything bigger than a cruiser and even those can add up after a while if they are fit well. Losing a BC is a hard hit for me, much less a BS if I could fly one.
I personally can't stand running missions, so my only source of income is having a miner alt that I can somewhat AFK run while I'm not seeing action on my main.
I must admit it does suck having to run a cearbear alt just so I can PVP on my main. The market helps make EVE, but it also sucks the fun out of EVE, so it would be nice to have some sort of income source in FW.
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X Gallentius
MicroFunks
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Posted - 2009.05.11 21:43:00 -
[15]
Originally by: crockett EXE
I have to admit, that as a newer player in FW there is no way I could keep it up if I didn't have a mining alt...
(or some other form of income.)
This is true for all of Eve. FW is no different.
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soldieroffortune 258
Gallente Imperium Forces
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Posted - 2009.05.11 22:33:00 -
[16]
yeah, hasnt FW been dying since its inception, what, almost a . . . . year ago? lol Sig removed, the file size image is 24000 bytes and it lacks EVE-related content - Mitnal |
crockett EXE
Minmatar Mutineers
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Posted - 2009.05.11 22:50:00 -
[17]
Edited by: crockett EXE on 11/05/2009 22:52:37
Originally by: X Gallentius
Originally by: crockett EXE
I have to admit, that as a newer player in FW there is no way I could keep it up if I didn't have a mining alt...
(or some other form of income.)
This is true for all of Eve. FW is no different.
Actually it is different.. Every other part of EVE revolves around making ISK with a risk vs reward system. If you are in 0.0 you hold Sov to make your alliance stronger and to make more ISK. In 0.0 you are fighting over resources which mean great rewards and more ISK.
If you are a cearbear, chances are you aren't mining roids just to to see them disappear. If you run missions it's a good chance you are doing it for ISK. If you explore or do WH's you are likely doing it hoping the risk is out weighed with a reward.
Even piracy has a risk reward system but of course it's high risk with less reward. FW at best is close to piracy in it's Risk vs Rewards aspects, meaning it's on the lowest par in the reward spectrum.
Everyone always says FW is training ground for 0.0 and that's a laugh IMHO. Most people in FW are there to have lots of fights. Most of us don't care about null sec politics and shooting POS's with capitol blobs or guarding some gate..
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Kessiaan
Minmatar MicroFunks
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Posted - 2009.05.11 23:28:00 -
[18]
I would support LP rewards for plexes, but I think for ISK it's fine.
All you need is one decent logistics alt in your plexing gang to salvage, grab the tags, and haul everything to the nearest faction Navy station and you'll have plenty of ISK.
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Louis DelaBlanche
The Anonna Mouse Commune
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Posted - 2009.05.12 00:09:00 -
[19]
kay for the sake of it im gonna give the one main reason I hope plexes never offer a isk/lp reward simply for completing them. Players, when it comes to making isk, are cowards. Anyone making isk because they need to, does so in a way thats as risk free as possible to them. Currently theres plenty of fw plexers who do the cloaking or stabbed nanointy, pvp avoiding way to cap plexes; & all they get for it is a faction bonus/penalty & a medal if they get the top rank. Adding an actual isk/lp reward will multiply this behavior massively; because the purpose of plexing will change from primarily isk sinking, to isk generating.
Perhaps in the future actually occupying a system will have a beneficial effect. I personally hope that it is somehow linked with Viceroys if they ever introduce that. But even there, plexing would & should simply be a means to an end; something that requires organized & concentrated effort by multiple individuals/corps to cause (as taking occupancy currently requires, even if the post dt thing is a broken aspect to it). There should never be an individual reward for taking/defending an individual plex, beyond the taking part.
Buff occupancy rewards by all means, but I guarantee buffing the rewards for plexing itself will have no beneficial effect on FW
_________________ Space is reserved _________________ |
crockett EXE
Minmatar Mutineers
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Posted - 2009.05.12 00:31:00 -
[20]
Edited by: crockett EXE on 12/05/2009 00:33:32
Originally by: Louis DelaBlanche kay for the sake of it im gonna give the one main reason I hope plexes never offer a isk/lp reward simply for completing them. Players, when it comes to making isk, are cowards. Anyone making isk because they need to, does so in a way thats as risk free as possible to them. Currently theres plenty of fw plexers who do the cloaking or stabbed nanointy, pvp avoiding way to cap plexes; & all they get for it is a faction bonus/penalty & a medal if they get the top rank. Adding an actual isk/lp reward will multiply this behavior massively; because the purpose of plexing will change from primarily isk sinking, to isk generating.
Perhaps in the future actually occupying a system will have a beneficial effect. I personally hope that it is somehow linked with Viceroys if they ever introduce that. But even there, plexing would & should simply be a means to an end; something that requires organized & concentrated effort by multiple individuals/corps to cause (as taking occupancy currently requires, even if the post dt thing is a broken aspect to it). There should never be an individual reward for taking/defending an individual plex, beyond the taking part.
Buff occupancy rewards by all means, but I guarantee buffing the rewards for plexing itself will have no beneficial effect on FW
Yea I could agree with you on that. What I'd like to see is to get either LP points of bounties for killing enemy militia much the same as you get killing NPC rats. For every ship type the bounty would change and also go up the higher the rank of the player killed.
This would give more incentive to go out and fight and might even give incentive to keep gangs smaller in order to not split the bounties by too much in a fleet.
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Sillas Cov
Caldari 22nd Black Rise Defensive Unit
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Posted - 2009.05.12 05:08:00 -
[21]
Gentlemen
I personally have all the isk I need to Pvp in fac war via trading. I'm covered fully.
2ndly I've achieved the highest militia rank, and so have put my time in plexing, with a very very significant amount of small gang pvp ops along the way over the last 5 months.
I posted because I've seeing a very cool game environment erode over the past months. (yes cool even though its broken IHMO).
Notice Ive not posted applauding CPP on an amazingly rich and active Pvp environment within the plexs in the low sec systems?
I've roamed over 5 regions and 35 jumps in an evening and many many times, Ive have found no war targets Plexing or even camping something.
Why Plexing?
Simple: This is one proven game mechanism that breaks up the blobs and creates a reason to fleet up in small fast, hit and run gangs....
How do we get pilots out of high sec PVE mission pockets and into T1 ships and into fleet and into plexes??
Isk, Cool dynamic game play, active fac war corps... ect.
So far Ive not herd one compelling reason why an aspiring fac war pilot should not fund his pvp, to a significant degree, while plexing.
Not One.
When the game play could be so much more inspired and sustainable... with some CPP love.
Val I think you have it right there mate.
Im out and done with posting here as it is beyond pointless.
Lock this thread and put me out of my misery.
Onward
Sillas
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Jungle Axe
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Posted - 2009.05.12 13:24:00 -
[22]
You cant see the forest for all the trees. Give it some thought, ask for help, and you and your corp might figure it out at some point.
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Miranda Reactor
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Posted - 2009.05.12 21:42:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Jungle Axe You cant see the forest for all the trees. Give it some thought, ask for help, and you and your corp might figure it out at some point.
^^this
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Seraph Castillon
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.05.12 23:51:00 -
[24]
People keep saying that FW is simply a crash course in PvP to send (new) players on their way to nul sec. Well, in 0.0 you get rewarded (indirectly) for capturing and holding space, don't you? Why shouldn't this be the case when fighting in FW? Ofcourse in a different way.
I also agree that objectives should be PvP oriented and have little or nothing to do with PvE.
Hell, you could even have factions place bounties on the heads of the opposing factions militia members to provide some income. Ofcourse they would only be available through FW kills.
Originally by: EVIL SYNNs Edited by: EVIL SYNNs on 11/05/2009 16:06:27 Sorry Silas, what do pirates get from game mechanics? And yet they do fine, they don't whine all the time about it.
For starters you get more freedom than you do in any other game I know of. Ofcourse it is not easy to make a living pirating, but to do so you really can't approach it as looking for PvP and engaging as many targets as possible. (Sorry for the off-topic)
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Droog 1
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Posted - 2009.05.13 12:01:00 -
[25]
FW isn't dead. It's just that you guys have 'won'. Enjoy what's left. |
Bad Messenger
Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United
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Posted - 2009.05.13 14:57:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Droog 1 FW isn't dead. It's just that you guys have 'won'. Enjoy what's left.
Yea so it seems. Gallente players are changing side to minmatar so they an be again victorious. Gallente has now less members than minmatar.
Caldari still continues capturing systems to ensure total victory.
Personally i want to see what CCP does when all gallente systems are captured, maybe nothing. But i think capturing all systems is something they never thought to happen.
Boredom will be our worst enemy on those last 22 systems.
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Parmenides Elea
Gallente Wrath of Fenris
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Posted - 2009.05.13 15:07:00 -
[27]
So your saying boredom hasn't been your biggest enemy already badmessenger? Hell if I had to do as much button orbiting as you guys have done I would have lost my mind. Still congrats on all your pve skills.
WOLFY will not be leaving gal faction war any time soon so if your bored and looking for a fight you know where to come.
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Trebor Notlimah
Lone Star EVE Group Veni Vidi Vici
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Posted - 2009.05.13 15:13:00 -
[28]
FW was supposed to bridge the gap between Empire and 0.0 combat. If you're done with FW, then it's probably time to move up to 0.0
LSEG is recruiting....
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Sun Clausewitz
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Posted - 2009.05.13 15:16:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Trebor Notlimah FW was supposed to bridge the gap between Empire and 0.0 combat. If you're done with FW, then it's probably time to move up to 0.0
quote]
FacWar... small fights in frigs 0.0 war, huge blobs in caps
Pick Three: Caldari/PVP/Solo/Success |
Trebor Notlimah
Lone Star EVE Group Veni Vidi Vici
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Posted - 2009.05.13 15:26:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Trebor Notlimah on 13/05/2009 15:27:49
Originally by: Sun Clausewitz
FacWar... small fights in frigs 0.0 war, huge blobs in caps
Your doing it totally wrong. Browse the KB
More specifically check out Ingis Fire
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