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Zak Kingsman
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Posted - 2004.09.04 22:46:00 -
[1]
Ok the gankagedon has become a very popular ship. In fleet battle damage is often much more important than defense as if you're number is called you're not gonna last very long unless you're in a purely defensive setup. So lets look at why the geddon is so great, besides its rof and cap bonus to be able to let it use those turrets so effectively it has 8 low slots to dedicate to damage mods. Only amarr ships have that, but they don't have many mid slots for tracking mods, which also effectively increase your DOT.
Well CCP said they're not gonna touch the geddon because other ships can also fit a pure damage setup. For instance a Mega can fit 425s or if you REALLY want to******someone and feel confident that you can close fast enough you can fit blasters, fit low slot magnetic stabs and midslot tracking mods to make your damage great.
I don't know all that much about the mins except I rarely see them in pvp anymore and that has to be telling but I'm assuming that since they're turret ships with a good mix of low and mid slots you can add enough damage and tracking mods to make them a pure damage dealer except that tracking on projectiles suck so bad that it would still probably suck at dealing damage. So yeah probably gonna have to relook at the howies again, though I suppose with a couple support ships adding tacking the howies might be really evil.
Now lets look at the raven. For a pure damage setup you're gonna want to go with the weapon you can fit the most of. on the raven this is launchers. ok so you can fill your lows with ballistic mods (of which no named modules exist) and your mid slots are worthless, there's no mid slot mod to help out missile boats. I would propose some sort of missle speed enhancer to compliment the rof bonus of the ballistic mod. it would also make missiles a bit more usefull as it would be quicker to get to your target as opposed to now where you can be dead before your missiles reach the enemy if you're at range. Also, there's no way for support ships to help boost DOT like you can with turrets. And with the coming missile changes making missiles MORE survivable they're going to be even less damaging.
Basically there's no way to fit a pure damage caldari BS. Please either give us an upsized moa 6 turrets 2 launchers, or give us something to make a pure damage ship with missiles.
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Zak Kingsman
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Posted - 2004.09.04 22:46:00 -
[2]
Ok the gankagedon has become a very popular ship. In fleet battle damage is often much more important than defense as if you're number is called you're not gonna last very long unless you're in a purely defensive setup. So lets look at why the geddon is so great, besides its rof and cap bonus to be able to let it use those turrets so effectively it has 8 low slots to dedicate to damage mods. Only amarr ships have that, but they don't have many mid slots for tracking mods, which also effectively increase your DOT.
Well CCP said they're not gonna touch the geddon because other ships can also fit a pure damage setup. For instance a Mega can fit 425s or if you REALLY want to******someone and feel confident that you can close fast enough you can fit blasters, fit low slot magnetic stabs and midslot tracking mods to make your damage great.
I don't know all that much about the mins except I rarely see them in pvp anymore and that has to be telling but I'm assuming that since they're turret ships with a good mix of low and mid slots you can add enough damage and tracking mods to make them a pure damage dealer except that tracking on projectiles suck so bad that it would still probably suck at dealing damage. So yeah probably gonna have to relook at the howies again, though I suppose with a couple support ships adding tacking the howies might be really evil.
Now lets look at the raven. For a pure damage setup you're gonna want to go with the weapon you can fit the most of. on the raven this is launchers. ok so you can fill your lows with ballistic mods (of which no named modules exist) and your mid slots are worthless, there's no mid slot mod to help out missile boats. I would propose some sort of missle speed enhancer to compliment the rof bonus of the ballistic mod. it would also make missiles a bit more usefull as it would be quicker to get to your target as opposed to now where you can be dead before your missiles reach the enemy if you're at range. Also, there's no way for support ships to help boost DOT like you can with turrets. And with the coming missile changes making missiles MORE survivable they're going to be even less damaging.
Basically there's no way to fit a pure damage caldari BS. Please either give us an upsized moa 6 turrets 2 launchers, or give us something to make a pure damage ship with missiles.
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Urfin
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Posted - 2004.09.04 23:17:00 -
[3]
So basically you want a mad-damage BS that can kick ass from any range its missiles will fly to, have no problems with tracking or cap, and be able to choose any damage type without penalties. Riiight.
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Urfin
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Posted - 2004.09.04 23:17:00 -
[4]
So basically you want a mad-damage BS that can kick ass from any range its missiles will fly to, have no problems with tracking or cap, and be able to choose any damage type without penalties. Riiight.
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Shenrogar
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Posted - 2004.09.05 04:43:00 -
[5]
2 words, be better
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Shenrogar
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Posted - 2004.09.05 04:43:00 -
[6]
2 words, be better
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Zak Kingsman
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Posted - 2004.09.05 08:48:00 -
[7]
no, I'm asking for the ability to have a setup that can come remotely close to a geddon in damage output if dedicated to pure damage, I'm sorry but missiles are not as uber as some people think they are. And with the upcoming changes they will be much worse, and what I've asked for is nothing more than parity with turrets. As much as you think that tracking is such a huge problem for turrets, when's the last time you were able to warp away 10 seconds after being fired on by a turret and getting out before you actually were hit?
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Zak Kingsman
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Posted - 2004.09.05 08:48:00 -
[8]
no, I'm asking for the ability to have a setup that can come remotely close to a geddon in damage output if dedicated to pure damage, I'm sorry but missiles are not as uber as some people think they are. And with the upcoming changes they will be much worse, and what I've asked for is nothing more than parity with turrets. As much as you think that tracking is such a huge problem for turrets, when's the last time you were able to warp away 10 seconds after being fired on by a turret and getting out before you actually were hit?
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Marcus Aurelius
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Posted - 2004.09.05 09:24:00 -
[9]
 Originally by: Zak Kingsman
no, I'm asking for the ability to have a setup that can come remotely close to a geddon in damage output if dedicated to pure damage...and what I've asked for is nothing more than parity with turrets.
Hmm,
Nothing comes close to the gankageddon in damage output. Not a megathron with blasters even. So that takes care of that wish.
Gankageddon is uber, and imo currently not balanced.
And I must say I don't get your idea of a medslot damage nehancing module for the Raven. A pure damage-output Raven with 6 sieges, tank medslots (insofar *****ble) and ballistic controls in low is pretty damn scary already. It is pretty versatile but indeed does not have the damage output of the geddon. See point 1 for why I dont think it should.
Currently, me being Megathron and Raven able skillwise, my preferred setups for fleet:
1. Scorp with 4 siege 2 heavy nos and magic midslots.
2. Raven with siege and 2 heavy nos and shieldtank.
3. Megathron with 7 rails and hardly any tanking.
gangking gang prefered:
1. Raven with siege and nos
2. Blasterthron
3. Scorp with fast locking , mwd and scrambling/webbing ability aside from 4 siege and 2 neutron blasters.
Now where does that put the missile-based BS below the turret based ones ?
Just forget about gankageddon, it's nr1 on the nerf list now and wont last for very long once tomb get off from shiva again.
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Marcus Aurelius
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Posted - 2004.09.05 09:24:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Zak Kingsman
no, I'm asking for the ability to have a setup that can come remotely close to a geddon in damage output if dedicated to pure damage...and what I've asked for is nothing more than parity with turrets.
Hmm,
Nothing comes close to the gankageddon in damage output. Not a megathron with blasters even. So that takes care of that wish.
Gankageddon is uber, and imo currently not balanced.
And I must say I don't get your idea of a medslot damage nehancing module for the Raven. A pure damage-output Raven with 6 sieges, tank medslots (insofar *****ble) and ballistic controls in low is pretty damn scary already. It is pretty versatile but indeed does not have the damage output of the geddon. See point 1 for why I dont think it should.
Currently, me being Megathron and Raven able skillwise, my preferred setups for fleet:
1. Scorp with 4 siege 2 heavy nos and magic midslots.
2. Raven with siege and 2 heavy nos and shieldtank.
3. Megathron with 7 rails and hardly any tanking.
gangking gang prefered:
1. Raven with siege and nos
2. Blasterthron
3. Scorp with fast locking , mwd and scrambling/webbing ability aside from 4 siege and 2 neutron blasters.
Now where does that put the missile-based BS below the turret based ones ?
Just forget about gankageddon, it's nr1 on the nerf list now and wont last for very long once tomb get off from shiva again.
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Khe Zen'al'Zar
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Posted - 2004.09.05 09:34:00 -
[11]
fit ecm in ur meds instead ? so you can dmg them while they just have to sit and watch or run away ?
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Khe Zen'al'Zar
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Posted - 2004.09.05 09:34:00 -
[12]
fit ecm in ur meds instead ? so you can dmg them while they just have to sit and watch or run away ?
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Zak Kingsman
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Posted - 2004.09.05 11:18:00 -
[13]
yeah the ecm idea is the best thing for pure damage I guess.. dampeners are so nice and take effectively 0 cap... Just wish CCP would realize that while they say every other ship can setup for pure damage, there's really nothing on par with the geddon, and rather than nerfing the geddon, I'd like to see the ability to do that with other ships. I don't care if they're AS good as the geddon so much as that they're close and far superior to a tanked setup... (in damage output only)
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Zak Kingsman
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Posted - 2004.09.05 11:18:00 -
[14]
yeah the ecm idea is the best thing for pure damage I guess.. dampeners are so nice and take effectively 0 cap... Just wish CCP would realize that while they say every other ship can setup for pure damage, there's really nothing on par with the geddon, and rather than nerfing the geddon, I'd like to see the ability to do that with other ships. I don't care if they're AS good as the geddon so much as that they're close and far superior to a tanked setup... (in damage output only)
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Grut
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Posted - 2004.09.05 12:52:00 -
[15]
.... whats a raven no defence setup?
4dmg mods in the lows, lets your torps hit for around 700 with close to a 10sec rof
mids, lots and lots of ew
Lots of ew is a hell of alot more useful the abit of extra range & tracking you get on geddon.
Ravens are about the only ships that can tank and fit alot of damage mods... and that works pretty well.
The only problems with ravens are that;
1. Cruise/torps take so damn long to hit, a turret based ship will have put out 1000's of dmg by the time your first cruise hits.
2. Shield tankings abit poor atm, you wont be able to keep your cap up without an injector, dosent matter to much on tq where your normally gonna be shot out by quite a few bs
Mostly harmless |
Grut
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Posted - 2004.09.05 12:52:00 -
[16]
.... whats a raven no defence setup?
4dmg mods in the lows, lets your torps hit for around 700 with close to a 10sec rof
mids, lots and lots of ew
Lots of ew is a hell of alot more useful the abit of extra range & tracking you get on geddon.
Ravens are about the only ships that can tank and fit alot of damage mods... and that works pretty well.
The only problems with ravens are that;
1. Cruise/torps take so damn long to hit, a turret based ship will have put out 1000's of dmg by the time your first cruise hits.
2. Shield tankings abit poor atm, you wont be able to keep your cap up without an injector, dosent matter to much on tq where your normally gonna be shot out by quite a few bs
Mostly harmless |
Bohr
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Posted - 2004.09.05 13:18:00 -
[17]
The raven does'nt really need anymore bonusses. Have to remember it's med slot capability to fit ew, which balances a lot of the fights it can encounter.
Only thing unbalanced is still the amarr ships being very good, and the minmatar ships being very bad.
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Bohr
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Posted - 2004.09.05 13:18:00 -
[18]
The raven does'nt really need anymore bonusses. Have to remember it's med slot capability to fit ew, which balances a lot of the fights it can encounter.
Only thing unbalanced is still the amarr ships being very good, and the minmatar ships being very bad.
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Alowishus
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Posted - 2004.09.06 06:28:00 -
[19]
If you don't tank a Raven you can fit all Siege Launchers + Nosies + Balistic Controls and do enough damage to beat a Gankgeddon. Hell, you could put EW, MWD and a Scrambler on that Raven too.
Always assume a Gankgeddon is using multis, that means he can hit from 15-25k... that's it. The Mega Pulse won't hit much below 15k (where a Raven still can) or above 25k (where a Raven still can).
Also if you can repair armor, even a little, you can take a Gankgeddon. For instance guess who wins between a standard Gankgeddon and one that has one large repairer in place of a damage mod. For those who are slow, it's the one that can repair. Further, An 8x Mega Pulse, 5x Heatsink 2, 1x Large Rep, 1x Thermal Hardener Apoc will also beat a Gankgeddon. The only time you run into problems with a Gankgeddon is if you have a shield tank. Why? Simply because the Gankgeddon RIPS right through all shields and with the extensive shield tank you have sacrificed almost everything else your ship can do. You've over-augmented a part of your ship that is useless against a Gankgeddon.
There are infinity and one ways to beat a Gankgeddon, stop complaining. Don't try to outdamage a Gankgeddon, outsmart it. And for godsakes, if you run a plain jane vanilla-ass shield tanked Raven setup then please shut the hell up about the Gankgeddon being ub3r. The actual problem is that the Raven is ub3r against everything else. The Gankgeddon just happens to be the only thing that can beat it, and only because it's some crazy-ass setup. Use your heads. Please.
Raven 4TW! Rank(1) SP: 243745/256000 |
Alowishus
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Posted - 2004.09.06 06:28:00 -
[20]
If you don't tank a Raven you can fit all Siege Launchers + Nosies + Balistic Controls and do enough damage to beat a Gankgeddon. Hell, you could put EW, MWD and a Scrambler on that Raven too.
Always assume a Gankgeddon is using multis, that means he can hit from 15-25k... that's it. The Mega Pulse won't hit much below 15k (where a Raven still can) or above 25k (where a Raven still can).
Also if you can repair armor, even a little, you can take a Gankgeddon. For instance guess who wins between a standard Gankgeddon and one that has one large repairer in place of a damage mod. For those who are slow, it's the one that can repair. Further, An 8x Mega Pulse, 5x Heatsink 2, 1x Large Rep, 1x Thermal Hardener Apoc will also beat a Gankgeddon. The only time you run into problems with a Gankgeddon is if you have a shield tank. Why? Simply because the Gankgeddon RIPS right through all shields and with the extensive shield tank you have sacrificed almost everything else your ship can do. You've over-augmented a part of your ship that is useless against a Gankgeddon.
There are infinity and one ways to beat a Gankgeddon, stop complaining. Don't try to outdamage a Gankgeddon, outsmart it. And for godsakes, if you run a plain jane vanilla-ass shield tanked Raven setup then please shut the hell up about the Gankgeddon being ub3r. The actual problem is that the Raven is ub3r against everything else. The Gankgeddon just happens to be the only thing that can beat it, and only because it's some crazy-ass setup. Use your heads. Please.
Raven 4TW! Rank(1) SP: 243745/256000 |
Svarun
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Posted - 2004.09.06 07:56:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Svarun on 06/09/2004 09:54:09
Edited by: Svarun on 06/09/2004 07:58:06
Omg I really wonder if any of you people actually TRIED to fit a raven. Id really like to see you put 6 sieges, 2 heavy NOS and a 100mn MWD on without the help of lowslots. If you can do it, sell me your char, because I sure as hell cant do it despite my perfect fitting skills.
Fact: raven is more or less either a cav ship or a tank. It cannot be used as a gankship due to need to use low slots to fit 6 siege launchers on. Mkay?
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Svarun
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Posted - 2004.09.06 07:56:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Svarun on 06/09/2004 09:54:09
Edited by: Svarun on 06/09/2004 07:58:06
Omg I really wonder if any of you people actually TRIED to fit a raven. Id really like to see you put 6 sieges, 2 heavy NOS and a 100mn MWD on without the help of lowslots. If you can do it, sell me your char, because I sure as hell cant do it despite my perfect fitting skills.
Fact: raven is more or less either a cav ship or a tank. It cannot be used as a gankship due to need to use low slots to fit 6 siege launchers on. Mkay?
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Iratus Caelestis
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Posted - 2004.09.06 08:30:00 -
[23]
Quote:
The Gankgeddon just happens to be the only thing that can beat it, and only because it's some crazy-ass setup. Use your heads. Please.
I agree, I had a lesson from a much more experienced player than me and it's the best bit of advice I've had. Think outside of the box.
Rejoice in the fact that everyone else is forced to engage at very specific ranges and think what you need to keep mobile enough to not get into their sweetspot.
The style I'm trying to develop at the moment is to fly very quickly, have a stupidly fast cap recharge and don't hang around long enough to need a large shield or armor boost.
If I'm ambushed I'll be raped, no question but if I'm teamed with someone else and I'm doing the ambushing then I can usually get away with it.
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Iratus Caelestis
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Posted - 2004.09.06 08:30:00 -
[24]
Quote:
The Gankgeddon just happens to be the only thing that can beat it, and only because it's some crazy-ass setup. Use your heads. Please.
I agree, I had a lesson from a much more experienced player than me and it's the best bit of advice I've had. Think outside of the box.
Rejoice in the fact that everyone else is forced to engage at very specific ranges and think what you need to keep mobile enough to not get into their sweetspot.
The style I'm trying to develop at the moment is to fly very quickly, have a stupidly fast cap recharge and don't hang around long enough to need a large shield or armor boost.
If I'm ambushed I'll be raped, no question but if I'm teamed with someone else and I'm doing the ambushing then I can usually get away with it.
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Nerhtal Al'Thali
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Posted - 2004.09.06 08:49:00 -
[25]
Ravens damage output is beyond sickening - unbelievably scary to watch a singular raven beat a 4 Large Armour Repairing apoc (it took bloody ages mind)
Oh, hardeners over repairers quantity.... the cap drain running 4 LAR is a wee bit hefty!
"Game Experience And Dev Opinions May Change With The Time Of Day During Online Play"
Oveur
"First in, last out"
Bridgeburner Motto |
Nerhtal Al'Thali
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Posted - 2004.09.06 08:49:00 -
[26]
Ravens damage output is beyond sickening - unbelievably scary to watch a singular raven beat a 4 Large Armour Repairing apoc (it took bloody ages mind)
Oh, hardeners over repairers quantity.... the cap drain running 4 LAR is a wee bit hefty!
"Game Experience And Dev Opinions May Change With The Time Of Day During Online Play"
Oveur
"First in, last out"
Bridgeburner Motto |
Iratus Caelestis
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Posted - 2004.09.06 09:04:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Zak Kingsman
ok so you can fill your lows with ballistic mods (of which no named modules exist)
Dread Gurista.
Not 'named' as such but fricking good mod. Good luck finding 5 though :D
If you do let me know 
/emote shudders at the thought of 60% damage mod on 6 torps launching every 11s. Wishes he had 200m to give it a try.
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Iratus Caelestis
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Posted - 2004.09.06 09:04:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Zak Kingsman
ok so you can fill your lows with ballistic mods (of which no named modules exist)
Dread Gurista.
Not 'named' as such but fricking good mod. Good luck finding 5 though :D
If you do let me know
/emote shudders at the thought of 60% damage mod on 6 torps launching every 11s. Wishes he had 200m to give it a try.
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Lilan Kahn
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Posted - 2004.09.06 11:15:00 -
[29]
raven is the best dmg dealing ship in the game if none of its missels gets blown to bits
Originally by: Eris Discordia
We break after X amount of threads, then we go wild and then we get our medication.
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Lilan Kahn
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Posted - 2004.09.06 11:15:00 -
[30]
raven is the best dmg dealing ship in the game if none of its missels gets blown to bits
Originally by: Eris Discordia
We break after X amount of threads, then we go wild and then we get our medication.
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